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Review our [99]cookies information for more details This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse the site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Review our [100]cookies information for more details [101]Banyan Asia * [102]Previous * [103]Next * [104]Latest Banyan * [105]Latest from all our blogs Myanmar's minorities Caught in the middle Jul 11th 2012, 9:43 by J.M. | MAIJA YANG * * [106]Tweet BEFORE the war resumed, this border town in northern Myanmar pulsed with Chinese traders who kept gambling halls and brothels open around the clock. These days the streets are nearly empty, but scores of ethnic-Kachin civilians continue to pour into desolate camps on the edge of town. A fierce Burmese military campaign is driving them into the camps, and it shows no sign of abating one year on. While the world’s attention is diverted by the political thaw in lowland Myanmar, more than 75,000 Kachin (and counting) have been displaced from their native lands since the army attacked a Kachin Independence Army (KIA) outpost last June near a contested hydropower dam site, ending a 17-year cease-fire. Rights groups accuse Myanmar’s army of intentionally targeting civilians as part of their counter-insurgency strategy. They also stand charged of such abuses as rape, torture, forced conscription and summary executions. Residents at a large camp on the outskirts of Maija Yang speak of artillery barrages that have lasted for days, killing and maiming civilians as they fled to the bush. Fresh waves of Kachin are still arriving on foot from northern ShanState. Hostilities persist near the route of the Shwe pipeline, a multi-billion dollar joint project that is set to deliver [107]oil and gas from Myanmar’s coast to south-western China. Children separated from their parents sleep three to a bed in sweltering concrete barracks. With Burmese authorities blocking their access to the United Nations relief agency, they subsist on rations of rice and salt provided by local Kachin organisations straining under the pressure of new arrivals and monsoon rains. “It’s very bad right now…and sooner or later it could be a worse situation,” says May Li Awng, a Kachin aid worker who that has been helping tend to the displaced since fighting erupted last year. May Li Awng says that conditions are even worse for the 10,000 or more Kachin refugees who are stranded on the Chinese side. There relief is almost non-existent, due to China’s outright ban against foreign aid groups and media coverage of the refugees. Basic necessities such as food and medicine have to be smuggled across the border, where they are desperately needed to treat a surge in water-borne disease. Some of the refugees must even pay rent to the local landowners. In [108]a report released earlier this month, Human Rights Watch alleges China has gone so far as to order several hundred Kachin refugees back into the war zone. To date, the Chinese government has refused to classify the Kachin migrants on its soil as refugees. Were it to grant them the status, China would be obligated by international conventions to allow the UN and various Western monitoring groups access to the borderlands, a scenario it wants to avoid. Indeed, despite its decades-long support for Myanmar’s regime, China has never taken an official stance on its conflict with the Kachins. Like the powerful Burmese generals who operate on the other side of the border, it has sought to downplay the fighting in Kachin state, in order to cultivate its business interests in and around the afflicted area. Though remote and still economically under-developed, Kachin state is rich with jade, gold, tropical hardwood and hydropower potential—in which China has already invested billions, feeding a construction boom in Yunnan province. Both Myanmar’s army and the KIA have repeatedly linked Chinese-funded dam projects to the fighting, none more so than [109]the controversial Myitsone dam. Set to be the first and largest of seven dams that are planned down the length of the Irrawaddy river, Myitsone would have sent 90% of the electricity it generated to China, in exchange for $17 billion over 50 years. Adding their numbers to the tens of thousands displaced by the war, another 12,000 Kachin have been forcibly relocated by Myanmar’s government into Chinese-built “model villages” (pictured above), in order to clear the way for the dam site. The transplants have received free homes and appliances but they lack freedom of movement. A host of mining and timber projects have ravaged their native lands in the meantime. Last year the work at Myitsone was halted by the president, Thein Sein, after unprecedented protests over its social and environmental impact. His move was a shot in the arm for civic groups, yet many observers are convinced it was merely a temporary postponement. China is lobbying hard in Myanmar with a mix of carrot-and-stick measures designed to jump-start the dam’s construction; sometimes they insist that work on the dam has never actually stopped. The rights groups also harbour doubts about the ultimate authority of Myanmar’s new civilian leadership, which is bound by a rigid constitution and anyway largely comprised of former military figures. The consensus among locals in Kachin state is that work on the Mytisone dam will start up again at full steam after the monsoon rains have subsided. “Even if [Mr Thein] Sein is serious about reforming this country, his power is limited; he can be removed at any time,” says a Kachin community leader in the northern city of Myitkyina, who refused to be identified. “How do we really know he’s not just being used by the military leaders to extract more money and prestige from the West?” In Kachin state, business as usual may suit the interests of Burma’s shadowy generals and some of their Chinese counterparts. So long as the fighting continues, the prospects for a peaceful homecoming for the thousands of Kachins stuck outside their homeland look as bleak as ever. (Picture credit: J.M. | The Economist) [110]Previous Press freedom in Sri Lanka: Gota explodes [111]Next Cambodia's foreign relations: Losing the limelight * [112]Recommend 226 * * [113]Tweet * [114]Submit to reddit * * [115]View all comments (97)[116]Add your comment Related items TOPIC: [117]China » * [118]Daily chart: Faiths and the faithless * [119]American growth vs. the world: At the top of an underperforming class * [120]Daily chart: On top of the world in 90 days TOPIC: [121]Politics » * [122]Cliff talks: Relief in sight * [123]Gun control: First freedoms * [124]Israeli politics: Goodbye, for now TOPIC: [125]Myanmar » * [126]Myanmar’s humanitarian crises: Exiled to nowhere * [127]Politics this week * [128]Studies in Naypyidology: How the other 43 live TOPIC: [129]World politics » * [130]Money talks: December 17th 2012: Over to you * [131]Liberal Democrats: Cleggxistential crisis * [132]South Africa's ANC elections: Internal politics More related topics: * [133]Asia-Pacific politics * [134]Chinese politics * [135]Myanmar politics Readers' comments The Economist welcomes your views. Please stay on topic and be respectful of other readers. [136]Review our comments policy. * Add a comment (up to 5,000 characters): ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ Post Sort: * Newest first * [137]Oldest first * [138]Readers' most recommended [139]guest-iojwmwa Jul 17th 2012 1:54 GMT The ‘pro-democracy’ Myanmar’s groups and individuals celebrated by Western governments for objecting to the country’s military junta are also taking part in the war against minorities. Writing in the Sydney Morning Herald on July 8, Hanna Hindstrom reported that one pro-democracy group stated on Twitter that “[t]he so-called Rohingya are liars,” while another social media user said, “We must kill all the kalar.” Kalar is a racist slur applied to dark-skinned people from the Indian subcontinent [140]http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/07/16/251205/democracy-and-slaug hter-i... The Burmese hates Indians. India should do its part to protect the Rohinya population. * [141]Recommend 4 * [142]Report * [143]Permalink * [144]reply [145]happyfish18 [146]in reply to guest-iojwmwa Jul 17th 2012 7:41 GMT Better still if the Indian just annex the Myanmar or the Rakhine state based on the plea from the Rohingya Kalar compatriots. * [147]Recommend 4 * [148]Report * [149]Permalink * [150]reply [151]guest-iojwmwa [152]in reply to happyfish18 Jul 17th 2012 8:01 GMT Why would India want to rule over some racist barbarians who are racist against all Indian-looking people? * [153]Recommend 8 * [154]Report * [155]Permalink * [156]reply [157]indica [158]in reply to guest-iojwmwa Jul 20th 2012 1:48 GMT This Economist essay has nothing directly to do with 'Rohingyas' or India, does it? The minority this essay focuses upon are the Kachins. Are you trying to be 'clever' or 'cute' or 'stupid', in diverting attention over to Rohingyas and India? I see that your 'echo' 'happyfish18' is there for you. * [159]Recommend 6 * [160]Report * [161]Permalink * [162]reply [163]guest-iojneim [164]in reply to indica Jul 20th 2012 9:04 GMT But oh this article has everything to do with the Rohingyas and India. You see the Bamar are killing the Rohingyas and Kachin right now in their quest to destabilize the world, but they will target Indians when they get the chance to. So don't turn your back on the Bamar, because they will kill you before you know it. (You see, the Bamar want to kill all "Kalar", like you.) You should think more globally, and less tribally. * [165]Recommend 4 * [166]Report * [167]Permalink * [168]reply [169]indica [170]in reply to guest-iojneim Jul 21st 2012 2:18 GMT Do not preach to me or say things like "the Bamar want to kill all 'kalar' like you". Your thinking is the most 'tribal' I have come across. Have you seen me, what do you know about my being "kalar" or not? Indians have been living in Burma peacefully, for many centuries. Early Buddhist teachers in Burma have been Indians. Rohingyas view BANGLADESH as their country of origin - NOT India. You think 'globally' did you say? India and B'desh are two different countries, did you know that? * [171]Recommend 7 * [172]Report * [173]Permalink * [174]reply [175]guest-ioajimj [176]in reply to indica Jul 21st 2012 4:29 GMT As mentioned in the article (and you can easily use Google to verify this fact), the "Kalar" refer to all people from the Indian subcontinent, and the Burmese hate and want to kill all "Kalar." The Rohingya actually view MYANMAR as their "country of origin" because they've been there for many generations. Before that they were probably Bangladeshi, and before that they were just "Indians." I know that India has some disagreements with Bangladesh and Pakistan from time to time but you don't feel disgusted when racist Barbaric Burma wants to "kill all Kalar"? * [177]Recommend 4 * [178]Report * [179]Permalink * [180]reply [181]indica [182]in reply to guest-ioajimj Jul 22nd 2012 2:13 GMT Racism is not good. Okay. There is trouble over 'Rohingyas' and Burmans. Yes. But there are many Indians in different parts of Burma, many of them Tamils and many from other parts of India. Some have married Burmese ladies and settled down in Burma. As you drive through any town of reasonable size in Burma you see Indian people, especially, Yangon and Mandalay. I have no confirmation that "All Burmans hate Indians". Finally, when Indians living in your country say they face no discrimination at all, then, I will agree with your posts. * [183]Recommend 6 * [184]Report * [185]Permalink * [186]reply [187]guest-ioameoe [188]in reply to indica Jul 22nd 2012 18:28 GMT Are Indians being killed and driven from their homes by the hundreds of thousands in China? I think not. Indians probably face as much discrimination in China as they do in the West. Unfortunately there is still small amounts of discrimination in all parts of the world. But Indians are being massacred and driven from their homes in Burma. What the Burmese are doing to the Rohingyas is quite possible the worst 1-sided genocide (the Rohingyas have no army to protect themselves) since WW2. I think the "discrimination" Indians face in Burma is many orders of magnitude worse than they face in the West or China. * [189]Recommend 6 * [190]Report * [191]Permalink * [192]reply [193]tocharian Jul 16th 2012 18:19 GMT Here is a recent article in the official Chinese propaganda newspaper "China Global Times" about the gas/oil pipeline: [194]http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/721413.shtml The pipeline will cut through Burma to deliver gas and oil from the terminal at Kyaukphyu (in Rakhaing State where the Rohingya also live) to Yunnan. There will be almost no benefits for the people in Burma if you forget the bribes for the corrupt "Chinese axe-handles" (tayoke pu-hsein-yoe) at the very top of the food-chain in Burma. Chinese invasive extractive projects, without any attention to environmental and social effects are ubiquitous (not just in Burma!). Confiscating ancestral lands from farmers is a serious human rights issue. * [195]Recommend 14 * [196]Report * [197]Permalink * [198]reply [199]guest-iojwmwa [200]in reply to tocharian Jul 16th 2012 19:22 GMT Well let's see, the West doesn't want to invest in Burma because you are a bunch of barbarians who love to kill each other and occasionally gang up to commit genocide against the Rohinyas. The Rohingya issue could very well prevent the real, important, sanctions to be lifted, and even if it were lifted few Westerners would want to invest in far-away and violent Burma that doesn't have oil. The Chinese (and other Asians like the Thai and Koreans) are corrupt enough to invest in ultra-corrupt and ultra-barbaric Burma, but you don't want them there. So what's the solution? Keep killing the Rohingyas and "seize and repatriate" all Chinese investments to give back to the Burmese! If it worked for Robert Mugabe against the white people in Zimbabwe, it'll work for the Burmese against the Chinese too! * [201]Recommend 8 * [202]Report * [203]Permalink * [204]reply [205]guest-iojwmwa [206]in reply to tocharian Jul 16th 2012 20:16 GMT By the way, you'll notice that the West does not have sanctions on many "resource rich" African countries, and yet invests very little there. Why? Because of geography. The cost of transportation of minerals just isn't worth it. Eg Americans can buy more cheaply from Canada, even if it has to pay higher production costs, than it can from Africa because the transportation costs outweighs the production costs. In a country as dysfunctional and violent as Burma, its own asset is its natural resources. (Eg nobody in their right mind would try to start a Microsoft or Apple there.) That leaves Burma with two potential buyers/investors, which are India and China. Throw in a Thailand and you may get to three, but oh wait the Burmese also hate the Thais (and probably Indians as well). * [207]Recommend 7 * [208]Report * [209]Permalink * [210]reply [211]tocharian [212]in reply to guest-iojwmwa Jul 16th 2012 21:06 GMT Be careful about mentioning Zimbabwe and Mugabe. Lots of Chinese "immigrants" live there "dining" on endangered species! [213]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zim babwe/... * [214]Recommend 10 * [215]Report * [216]Permalink * [217]reply [218]guest-iojwmwa [219]in reply to tocharian Jul 17th 2012 1:43 GMT Well I guess that eating turtles isn't as bad as mass-murdering Indian-looking Muslims with helicopters. [220]http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2012/07/16/251205/democracy-and-slaug hter-i... * [221]Recommend 5 * [222]Report * [223]Permalink * [224]reply [225]Devils Advocate_1 [226]in reply to tocharian Sep 19th 2012 6:25 GMT [tocharianJul 16th, 18:19 Here is a recent article in the official Chinese propaganda newspaper "China Global Times" about the gas/oil pipeline: [227]http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/721413.shtml The pipeline will cut through Burma to deliver gas and oil from the terminal at Kyaukphyu (in Rakhaing State where the Rohingya also live) to Yunnan. There will be almost no benefits for the people in Burma if you forget the bribes for the corrupt "Chinese axe-handles" (tayoke pu-hsein-yoe) at the very top of the food-chain in Burma. Chinese invasive extractive projects, without any attention to environmental and social effects are ubiquitous (not just in Burma!). Confiscating ancestral lands from farmers is a serious human rights issue.] The British Y-chromosome also cut through Aung San Suu Kyi with no benefit to the people of Burma. What are you going to do about this kind of corruption? Devil's * [228]Recommend 1 * [229]Report * [230]Permalink * [231]reply [232]happyfish18 Jul 16th 2012 4:42 GMT Like all small ethnic everywhere, Kachins are fighting a losing ethnic battle against Government and MNCs backed by neo-Imperialists, Cultural and ethnic genocides are conveniently put aside or even encouraged in favour of profits ringing up in the companies balance sheets. * [233]Recommend 6 * [234]Report * [235]Permalink * [236]reply [237]tocharian Jul 13th 2012 15:12 GMT Here is a quick "background info": China has always been meddling in Burmese affairs. After WW II, the remnants of Chiang Kaishek's KMT (Kuomingtang) army moved into the Shan States to fight against Mao's communists. They started growing opium there as a cash crop (and the CIA supported that). The Burmese Army, in those days (early 50's) actually collaborated with Mao's troops in an attempt to drive out the KMT. Many of the famous drug warlords in Shan State like Khun Sa and Hsinghan Lo (father of Steven Law a junta crony) are remnants of the KMT. After that China supported and supplied the BCP (Burmese Communist Party). The older generals of the military junta like Than Shwe and Maung Aye probably remember fighting combined BCP and PLA troops in the 60's and the 70's. Those were very serious and fierce battles, I remember. The US was fighting in Vietnam then. Mao even tried to "export" his silly Cultural Revolution into Burma and that was the main reason for the anti-Chinese riots in 1967 (I was living in Rangoon during that period and I witnessed those things). Some say Communists "agitators" were involved even in the infamous "1988 uprising" which was brutally repressed by Ne Win (a half Chinese by the way). The 20,000 man strong Wa ethnic amy (UWSA), the bigest ethnic army in Burma, is a direct remnant of the BCP and is basically a PLA proxy. In the 90's that drug-dealer-friend Khin Nyunt, who was the then Prime Minister, made cease-fire deals with the "ethnic armies, so that they have their own autonomous areas (turf, I would say) to freely conduct their lucrative gambling, smuggling (timber, gold, jade etc.), trafficking (drugs, girls (Thailand is a tourist-mecca for sex and China has a surplus Y-chromosomes lol) etc.) operations, mainly along the Chinese and Thai borders. That was the way, these rebel war-lords funded themselves and their "armies" in collaboration with corrupt local Chinese bosses in Yunnan. There were casinos, brothels, even golf clubs along the border. Happy poppy fields period, I would say. However, with China's "rise", things began to change. China started having megalomaniac hegemonial dreams. Burma, because of its location (direct access to the Bay of Bengal) became an important pawn in their deep geo-strategic plans. That's why they are so obsessed about building all these dams, gas/oil pipelines and naval bases in Burma. Peking started bribing and bullying Than Shwe and his cronies to sign MoU's that would let China exploit natural resources and use Burma as a convenient gateway to the Indian ocean. Being cash-strapped under Western sanctions (imposed by Suu Kyi lol), Than Shwe had no choice but to comply. He and his cronies such as the business tycoon Tayza were compensated royally with Chinese bribes that are stashed away in Singaporean banks. Than Shwe and Khin Nyunt are gone and the cease-fire is broken with the KIA (Kachin Independence Army). Now in a strange twist, the KIA claims that they are fighting to prevent the Chinese from exploiting "their land" and that the Burmese Army is paid by the Chinese to protect Chinese mega-projects, such as the Myitsone dam and the gas/oil pipeline (these invasive projects would have a devastating impact on the ecosystem, not just locally). So what the Kachin rebels have to understand is the "change in scale" of what's going on. It's no longer "cross-border smuggling" where you make deals with the local Yunnan chieftains. Things are now happening at a more global strategic scale and as far as I can remember only the Burmese generals are invited to Peking, no local war-lords. the game is played in a different league now! Of course, the poor rural people everywhere in Burma will suffer, all in the name of the Great Economic Leapfrog Forward. The blue-eyed (naive) helpers, human rights activists, aid-workers (NGO's, INGO's, AI, UNHCR, whatever) are pretty much small fry in this big political landscape. They are nice people trying to help but pretty much irrelevant (except for a few select refugees waiting for a plane ticket to places like Fort Wayne Indiana!). * [238]Recommend 45 * [239]Report * [240]Permalink * [241]reply [242]guest-isnnwws [243]in reply to tocharian Jul 13th 2012 15:27 GMT BANGKOK — They have been called ogres and animals, terrorists and much worse – when their existence is even acknowledged. Asia's more than 1 million ethnic Rohingya Muslims are considered by rights groups to be among the most persecuted people on Earth. Most live in an anachronistic purgatory without passports, unable to travel freely or call any place home. In Myanmar, shaken this week by a bloody spasm of violence involving Rohingyas in which dozens of civilians died, they are almost universally despised. The military junta whose half-century of rule ended only last year treated them as foreigners – fueling a profound resentment now reflected in waves of vitriol being posted online. "People feel it very acceptable to say that 'We will work on wiping out all the Rohingyas,'" said Debbie Stothard, an activist with the Alternative ASEAN Network on Burma, referring to hyperbolic Internet comments she called "disturbing." [244]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/myanmar-conflict-rohingya -musli... Well if the Burmese Barbarians are such genocide-lovers, as Debbie Stothard pointed out, maybe they are in need of some foreigners to teach them that genocide is bad? You Bamars may think that Burma belongs to you and the Rohingyas are slaves whom you can murder at your pleasure, but the world won't let it happen! * [245]Recommend 37 * [246]Report * [247]Permalink * [248]reply [249]tocharian [250]in reply to tocharian Jul 13th 2012 15:29 GMT I should also add that the porous borders and rampant corruption created an ideal situation for all these illegal immigrants (a lot of Rohingya but even more Chinese) that some Burmese are so "outraged" about. Blame it on Khin Nyunt! In fact, I was once asked (of course informally) by someone who has some kind of connection to the Chinese, whether I would like to go back to Burma, because he can "arrange things for me" so that I can "buy" a Burmese ID. Such is the "Sino-Myanmar "paukphaw" relationship" that even Suu Kyi is praising! * [251]Recommend 18 * [252]Report * [253]Permalink * [254]reply [255]guest-isnnwws [256]in reply to tocharian Jul 13th 2012 15:38 GMT Actually the Rohingyas have been in Burma for many generations, and in most "civilized countries" (like the USA), if you are born there, you are automatically entitled citizenship, even if your parents were illegal immigrants. But I guess the Burmese are Barbarians and thus want to keep a million or so Rohingya slaves to serve their genocidal needs. * [257]Recommend 22 * [258]Report * [259]Permalink * [260]reply [261]tocharian [262]in reply to guest-isnnwws Jul 13th 2012 15:52 GMT I agree that many Rohingyas and also many Chinese, like the ones in Kokang region, have been living in Burma for many generations, but there are also a lot of recent immigrants and those are mainly from China (and a few from Bangladesh too, I think). I am not saying what the rules of citizenship should be in Burma, even Suu Kyi said she "doesn't know". I am just pointing out the blatant "a-symmetry" between the way Rohingyas are treated and Chinese are viewed by many Burmese. I think it's hypocritical. For me, Rohingyas are no different from Chinese! Chinese are also humans like Rohingya, no? I don't believe in "ethnicity". By the way, China doesn't automatically give citizenship to everyone born in China, so is China "uncivilized"? * [263]Recommend 14 * [264]Report * [265]Permalink * [266]reply [267]guest-iojjjaw [268]in reply to tocharian Jul 13th 2012 15:57 GMT Yes it is very sad that even Suu Kyi, your British-educated 1-Kyat-Master, is racist toward the Rohingyas. Surely she knows that they have lived in Burma for many generations and thus should be citizens in accordance to British values of universal rights, but she chooses to be a racist genocide-appeaser anyways. "I don't believe in "ethnicity"." Of course you believe in ethnicity. You believe that the Bamar are genetically superior to the Rohingyas and Chinese and want to wipe out the Rohingyas (nd Chinese), as Debbie Strothard has clearly shown. "By the way, China doesn't automatically give citizenship to everyone born in China, so is China "uncivilized"?" Actually it does. If you have a birth certificate in China, then you are automatically entitled to Chinese citizenship. In fact I personally know a few black couples (immigrants from Africa) who have recently gave birth in China and registered their (100% ethnically African) babies as Chinese citizens. * [269]Recommend 23 * [270]Report * [271]Permalink * [272]reply [273]tocharian [274]in reply to guest-iojjjaw Jul 13th 2012 16:37 GMT I am actually mixed (a bit of Rohingya, a bit of Sentinelese, a bit of Pyu, a bit of Mon, who knows?) * [275]Recommend 16 * [276]Report * [277]Permalink * [278]reply [279]happyfish18 [280]in reply to tocharian Jul 14th 2012 14:01 GMT Hope more of your less fortunate Rohingya Bangla compatriots can join your Jihad against the Myanmarese Junta-led government from your safe haven in Canada, * [281]Recommend 8 * [282]Report * [283]Permalink * [284]reply [285]worldtraveller811 [286]in reply to tocharian Jul 15th 2012 5:33 GMT Congratulation and thank you very much, tocharian, for this ecellent historical & political comprehension. If you had delivered that qualified "excursion in a nutshell" to western embassadors two decades before it might have caused an impact on (at that time) shortsighted western political decisions referring sanctions on Burma. * [287]Recommend 10 * [288]Report * [289]Permalink * [290]reply [291]worldtraveller811 [292]in reply to tocharian Jul 15th 2012 5:56 GMT Thank you very much, tocharian, for this excellent historical and political comprehension ("excursion in a nushell") on the complex situation in Burma a few decades ago and its impact until present time. * [293]Recommend 9 * [294]Report * [295]Permalink * [296]reply [297]worldtraveller811 [298]in reply to tocharian Jul 15th 2012 6:04 GMT @tocharian Thank you very much for this excellent historical and politcal comprehension which makes it clear to us how complex and difficult the situation in Burma was and how it has caused impacts until the present time. * [299]Recommend 11 * [300]Report * [301]Permalink * [302]reply [303]ouyoumei [304]in reply to tocharian Jul 15th 2012 23:22 GMT KMT didn't 'start' growing those opium, those fields were the legacy of British colonialism, at the century of expense against the Chinese. The KMT presence in Burma was covert operation supported by America, it is called 'Operation Paper,' an attempt to divert Mao's troop away from the Korean War. And the remnant troops left Burma in the 60's. What are you trying to achieve here, stereotyping specifically the Chinese. The Cold War was a global wide contest with the possibility of total annihilation for mankind. Part of the Containment Policy, capitalist troops spread across the entire Asian Continent, fighting from Korea, Taiwan, Indochina, Tibet, Turkey and later to Afghanistan. What was at stake was the entire planet, which outweighs much more than the insignificant Bamar-centric racist self interest. And be ashamed you are nagging now without even thinking about contributing to global stability and prosperity in the past. Knowing Bamar are this disproportionately selfish, I feel sorry for those hard working self sacrificing Tzu Chi volunteers whom are still continuing their rigorous aid work since the devastating Burmese cyclone. * [305]Recommend 3 * [306]Report * [307]Permalink * [308]reply [309]happyfish18 [310]in reply to tocharian Jul 16th 2012 3:45 GMT If it is supported by the KMT, then it is supported covertly by the CIA to undermine the Government. If it is supported by the CCP, then it must be contained. That is why the Myanmarese are suffering from the Western interferences to develop out of poverty. This pattern of Western patronage is seen throughout the developing world like in Africa and Latin America, Fortunately these areas have seen some rapid development after half a century of struggles against colonialism, Nevertheless the neo-Imperialists are always there to stir up Chaos and civil wars using excuses like drugs, ethnic conflicts etc. like what Mexico's Calderon has warned. Today Myanmar could be in the throe of another ethnic war encouraged by outside interferences. * [311]Recommend 8 * [312]Report * [313]Permalink * [314]reply [315]worldtraveller811 [316]in reply to tocharian Jul 16th 2012 5:30 GMT @tocharian Thank you very much for this excellent historical and political comprehension about the past in Burma and its impacts which we still feel at present time. * [317]Recommend 4 * [318]Report * [319]Permalink * [320]reply [321]happyfish18 Jul 13th 2012 12:58 GMT Of the 100+ odd ethnicities, the priority seems to be to resettle the Rohingya Banglas ethnics in UK, Australia, Canada, Norway, US etc. under a human rights program in order for them to practice their Syariah Laws. The problem with other ethnics is relatively straight-forward as it can be easily resolved through faster development of the Myanmar economy and politician Aung San democracy. * [322]Recommend 14 * [323]Report * [324]Permalink * [325]reply [326]Udoit Jul 13th 2012 6:56 GMT Its Yugoslavia 2.0 Sooner they go their separate ways the sooner healing process will start. * [327]Recommend 19 * [328]Report * [329]Permalink * [330]reply [331]moe aung [332]in reply to Udoit Jul 13th 2012 22:27 GMT The Burmese are not Serbs, Uidiot. * [333]Recommend 16 * [334]Report * [335]Permalink * [336]reply [337]guest-iojjmmj [338]in reply to moe aung Jul 13th 2012 22:33 GMT But "Myanmar" (whatever that is) sure does resemble the former Yugoslavia. * [339]Recommend 14 * [340]Report * [341]Permalink * [342]reply [343]moe aung [344]in reply to guest-iojjmmj Jul 13th 2012 23:28 GMT Burma (Myanmar) is not Yugowhatever. Resemblance very superficial. All the minorities together make up only a third of the population. That's why it's called the Union of Burma (Myanmar). * [345]Recommend 12 * [346]Report * [347]Permalink * [348]reply [349]guest-iojjmmj [350]in reply to moe aung Jul 14th 2012 1:22 GMT Then why do most ethnic groups have their own armies of independence? Why do many ethnic minorities feel as though the Bamar are out to destroy them? Too bad the Rohingyas are too poor to buy the weapons needed to defend themselves from the Bamar genocide. I think a rich Saudi oil tycoon should donate a few million to train a Rohingya army. * [351]Recommend 18 * [352]Report * [353]Permalink * [354]reply [355]moe aung [356]in reply to guest-iojjmmj Jul 14th 2012 14:03 GMT Got their own [357]spokemen, [358]lobbyists, even Jihadists, Jamal/Majeed whatever. Never you worry. * [359]Recommend 8 * [360]Report * [361]Permalink * [362]reply [363]guest-iojjmmj [364]in reply to moe aung Jul 14th 2012 16:38 GMT All of these people are foreigners who are only talking about the Rohingya genocide. I want them to do more action and less talking and buy the Rohingyas some weapons! * [365]Recommend 11 * [366]Report * [367]Permalink * [368]reply [369]guest-isnnmej Jul 13th 2012 3:28 GMT The only thing that can unite India, Pakistan, China, Bangladesh, and all other Muslim and dark skinned countries is hatred toward Burma. The Burmese are performing ethnic cleansing against the dark skinned and Muslims, so it's no surprise the victims and people related to the victims dislike the Burmese. [370]http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/opinion/ethnic-cleansing-of-myan mars-r... [371]http://india.nydailynews.com/newsarticle/4fff17e7c3d4caaa1f000000/ myanma... India, Pakistan, and China may have their differences, but at least these differences are, for the past 3 decades, settled in peaceful and diplomatic ways. (Mumbai bombing not withstanding) An enemy of an enemy is a friend, and all of Asia (and perhaps the rest of the world?) should be united against Burma. * [372]Recommend 30 * [373]Report * [374]Permalink * [375]reply [376]guest-isnnmoe [377]in reply to guest-isnnmej Jul 13th 2012 5:04 GMT BANGKOK — They have been called ogres and animals, terrorists and much worse – when their existence is even acknowledged. Asia's more than 1 million ethnic Rohingya Muslims are considered by rights groups to be among the most persecuted people on Earth. Most live in an anachronistic purgatory without passports, unable to travel freely or call any place home. In Myanmar, shaken this week by a bloody spasm of violence involving Rohingyas in which dozens of civilians died, they are almost universally despised. The military junta whose half-century of rule ended only last year treated them as foreigners – fueling a profound resentment now reflected in waves of vitriol being posted online. "People feel it very acceptable to say that 'We will work on wiping out all the Rohingyas,'" said Debbie Stothard, an activist with the Alternative ASEAN Network on Burma, referring to hyperbolic Internet comments she called "disturbing." [378]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/14/myanmar-conflict-rohingya -musli... It seems that the vast majority of Burmese are racist genocide lovers, as seem by their Internet comments. "People feel it very acceptable to say that 'We will work on wiping out all the Rohingyas" said Debbie Stothard. The world must unite to put an end to Burmese racist genocidal ambitions before it spreads. * [379]Recommend 21 * [380]Report * [381]Permalink * [382]reply [383]moe aung [384]in reply to guest-isnnmej Jul 13th 2012 12:03 GMT Never realised Burma was inhabited by white Caucasians/KKK. Hatemongers unite, eh? Incredible intellect in evidence here on TE. Truly remarkable. * [385]Recommend 15 * [386]Report * [387]Permalink * [388]reply [389]guest-isnnwws [390]in reply to moe aung Jul 13th 2012 15:24 GMT Actually the KKK are another racist group in another part of the world. (But I understand why an uneducated Burmese may be confused.) The Burmese, at least the ones who comment on the Internet, are clearly OK with committing genocide against the Rohinyas. Let me repeat: "People feel it very acceptable to say that 'We will work on wiping out all the Rohingyas" said Debbie Stothard. The world must perform its moral duty to stop the Burmese from such atrocities. Rwanda happened, Darfur happened, and hopefully we can stop the Rohingyas genocide before they are completely wiped out by you Burmese murderers. * [391]Recommend 16 * [392]Report * [393]Permalink * [394]reply [395]moe aung [396]in reply to guest-isnnwws Jul 13th 2012 16:01 GMT Steady on, Nawaz. Never go and provoke the Burmese, or do it at your peril. Threats and abusive language do not amount to genocide. But ethnic cleansing has already been carried out by the Chittagonians in the three townships next to the border. Newton's Third Law of Motion applies here, genius. Aggression begets aggression. Respect begets respect. * [397]Recommend 13 * [398]Report * [399]Permalink * [400]reply [401]guest-iojjjaw [402]in reply to moe aung Jul 13th 2012 16:21 GMT Oh ok my mistake. The Burmese are mostly only talking about committing genocide at this point (like you mentioned), but haven't ramped up their genocide-committing to full speed yet. (Maybe they will in the near future?) * [403]Recommend 18 * [404]Report * [405]Permalink * [406]reply [407]moe aung [408]in reply to guest-iojjjaw Jul 13th 2012 22:22 GMT You betcha. * [409]Recommend 15 * [410]Report * [411]Permalink * [412]reply [413]guest-iojjmmj [414]in reply to moe aung Jul 13th 2012 22:32 GMT See (tocharian/Adam Onge/whatever else you're known as on this website), your Burmese relative just proved my point. * [415]Recommend 17 * [416]Report * [417]Permalink * [418]reply [419]moe aung [420]in reply to guest-iojjmmj Jul 14th 2012 14:05 GMT Obviously they don't do sarcasm or irony here, toch. * [421]Recommend 9 * [422]Report * [423]Permalink * [424]reply [425]guest-iojjmmj [426]in reply to moe aung Jul 14th 2012 16:26 GMT How is it sarcasm? Do you even know what sarcasm means? Let's review: I quoted: "People feel it very acceptable to say that 'We will work on wiping out all the Rohingyas,'" said Debbie Stothard, an activist with the Alternative ASEAN Network on Burma, referring to hyperbolic Internet comments she called "disturbing." Then you wrote: Threats and abusive language do not amount to genocide. Then I wrote: Oh ok my mistake. The Burmese are mostly only talking about committing genocide at this point (like you mentioned), but haven't ramped up their genocide-committing to full speed yet. How is this sarcasm at all? You are talking about committing genocide on the Internet (and this is well documented by many Western newspapers) against the Rohingyas. * [427]Recommend 12 * [428]Report * [429]Permalink * [430]reply [431]tocharian [432]in reply to moe aung Jul 14th 2012 17:13 GMT Like most "Myanmarese" you are very naive, about Rohingyas but even more so about Chinese. These commentators that you are replying to are not "Bangladeshi Muslims". They are Chinese. Some of these comments, like the ones by guest-isnoowi are actually my comments about China, which they have reverse-engineered (change some words) to get back at me (Chinese WMD's change their names all the time and use these guest-xxxxxxx log-ins). Anyway, this article is about the Kachins, not about the Rohingyas, but the Chinese are using this "ugly" issue because they want to exploit that "anti-Rohingya" sentiment, which many "Myanmarese" seem to have nowadays. I speculate that this is partly fueled by the USDP (whose leaders have business ties to China) and is probably related to the Kyaukphyu naval base and terminal of the gas/oil pipeline that the Chinese are building. My advice to the Kachins and all the other "Myanmarese": Think global and stop acting local (or tribal lol). * [433]Recommend 20 * [434]Report * [435]Permalink * [436]reply [437]Bismarck888 [438]in reply to moe aung Jul 14th 2012 17:19 GMT You think Myanmar will get away with it, because they are Muslim. As long as they don't go all Jihadi and blow up Trader's Hotel in Yangon (its a Singaporean Chain), some in the West will be sympathetic. Myanmar is not Thailand, who have a raging Malay Muslim insurgency in Southern Thailand. Instead Myanmar is pariah state trying to get bank into the good graces of the international community. Thailand gets away with it, because they earned blowjob points for blowing horny Western/Chinese sex tourist. That is reality. And the Thais have a lot of blow job points. The basic impulse in a bureaucracy is to do nothing.or work to maintain the status quo. The treatment of the Rohingya provides an reason for Western governments not to do anything. * [439]Recommend 16 * [440]Report * [441]Permalink * [442]reply [443]Bismarck888 [444]in reply to tocharian Jul 14th 2012 17:39 GMT guest-xxxxx is not WMD, he just likes to irritate you, because you think everything is a Chinese conspiracy. He is some 20 something half Chinese screwing himself through Shanghai. Most other Chinese are not all that interesting in the Rohingya. If there is a nation that is has screwed itself so well without the assistant of malignant outside forces, Burma would win top prize. The funny thing is Aung Sang Suu Kyi had no issues with Junta during their post destructive period (1962-1990), when they were closed off Burma from the outside world. The paradox is just when the Junta starts to open up in the late 1980s, Aung Sang Su Kyi emerges. Where was she during 1960-1990?. Like the Junta, you and moe aung like to conjure up conspiracy theories and ghost. In the Junta's case its the outside world (no one in particular, at least they are not Racist), in your case its the Chinese, in moe aung, its Muslims. Is it some inbreed trait? Sooner or later, Burma will decide to close itself off, because they can't take the criticism. * [445]Recommend 13 * [446]Report * [447]Permalink * [448]reply [449]guest-iojjmmj [450]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 14th 2012 18:33 GMT lol that was funny... By the way, @ tocharia/Adam Onge, you're not so much naive as you are delusional. I wonder if the military junta is delusional like you or naive like moe? * [451]Recommend 11 * [452]Report * [453]Permalink * [454]reply [455]moe aung [456]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 14th 2012 18:33 GMT Not a Muslim issue per se, genius. It's a territorial issue. The Camel and the Arab. How many times! Ever heard of the 8888 Uprising, somewhere in between 1962 and 1990, capiche? That's what gave birth to ASSK's role and the National League for Democracy. And BTW criticism cuts both ways, Sherlock. Tsk, tsk, tsk...touchy! * [457]Recommend 9 * [458]Report * [459]Permalink * [460]reply [461]moe aung [462]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 14th 2012 19:07 GMT Well done, son. Ever heard of the [463]Mujahid Party of Arakan led by Jaffar Kawal? Shall we look at the way the Chittagonian/Rohingya have [464]behaved like 'good citizens' in their host country? * [465]Recommend 8 * [466]Report * [467]Permalink * [468]reply [469]moe aung [470]in reply to guest-iojjmmj Jul 14th 2012 19:25 GMT Genocide is always an emotive term, my son. Ethnic cleansing rather less so, don't you think? Look who has actually done that kind of [471]ethnic cleansing in northern Arakan in living memory (p 406-7). It's well documented by the British, your colonial masters. Western enough for you? You wouldn't know sarcasm if it bit you, Master Shifu. * [472]Recommend 9 * [473]Report * [474]Permalink * [475]reply [476]moe aung [477]in reply to tocharian Jul 14th 2012 19:40 GMT Don't care if they are Indo-Chinese, or Martians for that matter. You are a fine one to talk, toch. Talk, toch, geddit? Think Chinese when the Chinese think global, no? Think outside that China box, it's fragile. Obsession is not pretty, my good man. You know as well as I do both the Chinese (Tayoke) and the Rohingya (Kalar) are asking for it. Their so called leaders don't really care, from Saudi Arabia, London and Washington, or Beijing, even Kunming. It's the hapless albeit ambitious driven folk in the front line that will get it in the neck. Burmese Muslims are smart enough to stay out of it, at least in public. * [478]Recommend 8 * [479]Report * [480]Permalink * [481]reply [482]Bismarck888 [483]in reply to moe aung Jul 15th 2012 0:35 GMT The assumption that the West will give you and other Bamars a blow job, is arrogant. It takes a long time to win the sympathy of the West, so Myanmar can get away with murder of the Rohingya. Westerners don't give a crap about your argument that they are forming a separate state. Or that they are Muslim radicals. Unless Myanmar has a long record as a Western f*** buddy (ie Thailand or the Philippines), the West will not ignore what is happening to Rohingya and lift most of hte sanctions. Why don't you use your many talents, and offer your services to Myanmar? Your backside might not like it so much. On the international stage, Myanmar is like the street punk who has been jailed for 10 years for assault, and now he is out on probation, and the first thing he does is beats a poor lady to a coma. Really smart, but that is expected, for a country that has won the award for "Self Abuse" for 60 years running. Even North Korea has an excuse. You can brag about evil Muslims are, watch out blah blah. Muhammad in Saudi Arabia is able to enjoy a refreshing cold bottle of Coca Cola. Coca Cola represents civilization. Unfortunately, at this moment, Burmese, are not civilized even to enjoy a ice cold bottle of Coke yet. No need for Coke, you guys got Heroin. "Inject, snort, I don't really care, as long as I get my daily fix" should be the national anthem. * [484]Recommend 11 * [485]Report * [486]Permalink * [487]reply [488]moe aung [489]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 15th 2012 1:10 GMT Now, now, language, my son. Go wash your filthy mouth out. With friends like you the Rohingya don't need enemies. Who says 'evil Muslims'? Not me. It's an emotive word best reserved for insecure semi-literate 'commenters', like you perhaps. Did I mention Hitler or the Nazis? And don't bank on your white masters, Bishr. They sell Coke (your favourite, enterprising to the point of gun-running even to the native Americans while they were busy ethnic cleansing the same people), and snort some of the other kind themselves. Very civilised, eh? Ever heard of [490]what Gandhi thought of Western civilisation? * [491]Recommend 8 * [492]Report * [493]Permalink * [494]reply [495]Bismarck888 [496]in reply to moe aung Jul 15th 2012 2:02 GMT As for the word Evil, use what ever word you like. But that does not change the fact that Myanmar is poor, backward, war ravaged and isolated. I guess you want to turn Burma into a Gandhian Utopia, please be my guest. I don't see how different it is from what the Junta have done for the past 40-50 years? The problem is you are fixated with being your own master, doing what use please. Your line of reasoning is the very same reasoning that led to Burma closing itself off from the outside world for 40+ years. Even the North Koreans shut themselves off after 1955, they at least had friends in the Eastern Bloc. The same with Cuba. It takes talent to shut yourself off from everybody as the Junta did in the 1960s. You like it or not, its a white man / yellow's man world. Even the yellow man by himself, is not enough to lift Myanmar from economic destitution. The Koreans, Thai-Chinese businessmen, Singaporeans, Chinese have all invested heavily in Myanmar, but unfortunately its not enough. Given a choice, I rather be under Western/Chinese tutelage, than a Burmese, most people here would feel the same. Being free of Western/Chinese domination when your country is mired in poverty, war, backwardness, isolation is not freedom, its just another form of oppression. * [497]Recommend 12 * [498]Report * [499]Permalink * [500]reply [501]moe aung [502]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 15th 2012 10:18 GMT Talk about freedom and independence for minorities and the rest. Perhaps you belong to that kind of spineless servile race that has convinced itself they'll continue to thrive in the Sino-American dominated New World Order. The freedom and prosperity of sweat shops and brothels until they find another source of cheap labour to exploit and raw materials to extract. Plenty of coke of both sorts for you, Bishr. I admire those minorities who fight back against chauvinism and oppression. The Rohingya have done it, so have the Tamils, whatever the outcome, whatever the agenda hidden or overt, however they evolved. That's why we are fighting to throw off the military yoke, and in a class struggle, unlike the fight for independence, it's neither literally nor metaphorically black and white. Ever heard of [503]La Pasionaria? We'll make our own way in the world, and no foreigners, white or coloured, are going to tell us what to do. And we will throw off the military yoke that oppresses all the myriad peoples of Burma including the Rohingya, outside help or no. Grow a spine, Bishr. * [504]Recommend 7 * [505]Report * [506]Permalink * [507]reply [508]guest-iojmwss [509]in reply to moe aung Jul 15th 2012 15:17 GMT Actually, according to most if not all accounts of Western media, it's the ordinary Burmese who are trying to oppress and murder the Rohingyas, and the military is, in general, doing its job to stop the bloodshed. But hey obviously Suu Kyi is way too rational and worldly to lead Burma. (Although even she is racist, which makes her acceptable in Burma I guess.) I'm instead hoping that an insanely nationalist person with no understanding of economics or common sense like you or tocharian will take over. Such an event would lead to very funny results. * [510]Recommend 9 * [511]Report * [512]Permalink * [513]reply [514]moe aung [515]in reply to guest-iojmwss Jul 15th 2012 16:21 GMT Guess you never had an inkling, Wise-ass, of the military elite in Burma stoking up racial hatred and instigating race riots whenever they need to [516]wriggle out of a crisis. The more fool you if you reckon the military stops bloodshed. Ever heard of the [517]anti-Chinese riots of 1967? ASSK or anyone like me would have none of that. Only a village idiot, who believes everything the Western media have to say, would think that 'an insanely nationalist person with no understanding of economics or common sense will take over' and 'such an event would lead to very funny results'. * [518]Recommend 4 * [519]Report * [520]Permalink * [521]reply [522]guest-iojmlii [523]in reply to moe aung Jul 15th 2012 17:11 GMT You remind me of Bashir al-Assad while tocharian reminds me of Robert Mugabe. Maybe you two, or someone like you two, can rule Burma together? You can alienate Western popular opinion by killing more Rohingyas and tocharian can alienate the global business community and Eastern popular opinion by seizing and "repatriating" all yellow people investments in Burma. Forget Suu Kyi, she makes way too much sense for Burma! She should go retire in Thailand and you and tocharian should rule Burma! * [524]Recommend 6 * [525]Report * [526]Permalink * [527]reply [528]Bismarck888 [529]in reply to moe aung Jul 15th 2012 18:35 GMT Only to end up working as maids in maid/hookers in Thailand. All that resistance and hostility and you get the same result. Instead of being oppressed by Yellow and white man, you are doing jobs that other brown people don't want. Few native Thais work as maids in Thailand, they only work for foreigners or rich Thai households. Most of the maid are Burmese and Cambodians. The fact is they are dictating the terms, whether you like it or not. Why do you think the Junta is trying to reform? Do you think they are doing it purely based on altruism. So essentially you are arguing that the sanctions are not important. * [530]Recommend 9 * [531]Report * [532]Permalink * [533]reply [534]moe aung [535]in reply to guest-iojmlii Jul 15th 2012 18:52 GMT I'm guessing popular opinion also means votes to you. That's the reason politicians care for popular opinion. [536]U Nu bought Chittagonian Bengali votes in the 1960 elections, so did [537]the USDP in 2010. Can't speak for toch, but popular struggle is what I believe in. Assad is a dynastic ruler, and Mugabe got corrupted by office. ASSK isn't going to retire any time soon but she'd better be less elitist and not lose touch with the masses. You can always do business with anyone on fair and mutually beneficial terms, and Burma should be looking to the outside world for trade and commerce, for investments, not looking inwards although self reliance/self sufficiency must be the principal goal. And it doesn't mean you let them walk all over you because they have the commercial/financial clout. Caveat emptor, definitely. * [538]Recommend 4 * [539]Report * [540]Permalink * [541]reply [542]Bismarck888 [543]in reply to moe aung Jul 15th 2012 19:37 GMT The world is different from what it was 30-40 years ago, countries like China, could gradually reform. Now the world is much more open, the standard of openness is much higher than it was 40 years ago. Reform members of the Junta, know that to attract foreign investment you have to match the likes of Thailand/Philippines in terms of Foreign investment law in a short amount of time. Myanmar is not China, it can't dictate terms, I am sorry its just not big enough. It will be a shock to the likes of you, how far the Junta will go eventually. You think democracy is a cure for Myanmar, it doubt it alone will solve the minority question. When multi-ethnic authoritarian states transition to democracy or lose control, uncertainty and a vacuum exist. Separatist forces will make a dash for independence. And there are alot of them in Myanmar. many of them armed. Really there are three alternatives 1) Independence 2) Suppressing them. 3) Granting them greater autonomy and allow them to have representation in the central government, reserve positions for them. Create a second chamber where all the ethnic minorities if they were united could essentially veto legislation. The problem with Myanmar, many of those ethnic groups already have a large degree of autonomy and many of them are defacto independent. Think that they will surrender that autonomy if the Bamars stopping killing them is naive. I just don't think Junta and the ASSK can make the ideological leap required. The problem with ASSK, she is in very much her father's daughter. All that ASSK has is Panglong Agreement, and it failed miserably shortly after it was agreed. Unfortunately, the situation in Myanmar is not like it was in the 1960s, its even worse. The problem is you think the world owe, Myanmar a living. So you perception of how much you will have to put on the bargaining table is ridiculously skewed. This applies to dealing with the outside world and dealing with the ethnic minorities. * [544]Recommend 8 * [545]Report * [546]Permalink * [547]reply [548]moe aung [549]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 15th 2012 20:36 GMT Rather obsessed by colour, aren't you, Bishr? What does it matter when deprivation and exploitation happen everywhere in this world? You can drink your ice cold Coke and still be a wage slave where you are. Gullible people may believe the military is carrying out 'reforms' for the good of the country, and not to line their own pockets and entrench military domination. Others you know who have their own agenda to laud their 'sincere efforts'. The sanctions debate has been done to death, it's time has come and gone. They cannot now stop the corporate juggernauts once they've got the green light by the political elites that depend on the support of Big Business which of course the West truly represents consistently throughout history. He who pays the piper.... Gunboat diplomacy may no longer be necessary when globalisation and free trade do the job today. Still they ain't past bombing and invading a country when it suits them. Still the world will see what the Burmese are made of even in a far from ideal exploitative environment. The Chinese invaded four times in the 18th C and each time they were repelled at the border. India never was regarded as a real threat until Chittagong under the British became the casus belli for the First Anglo-Burmese War. That's when the Rohingya cuckoo was hatched and deposited in the Arakan nest. The Thais still have nightmares about the Burmese, now not just invading but staying until things change back home. At least to her credit Thailand's hospitality for Burmese refugees and migrants alike (given the historical enmity, even as second class citizens discriminated against and exploited) stands in sharp contrast with Bangladesh's disgraceful treatment of its own kind. Makes you wonder if it is stereotypical Kalar behaviour, don't you think? * [550]Recommend 5 * [551]Report * [552]Permalink * [553]reply [554]moe aung [555]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 15th 2012 21:12 GMT Thought you were talking some sense first, then you contradict yourself. And why do you think it's worse now than in the 60s? Self isolation gave over to quasi-globalisation (after the game changing event of the 8888 Uprising) at least in the region plus Japan, Korea N&S and Russia, but without the West. This made the military stronger. The ceasefire deals with lucrative business opportunities for the armed ethnic groups that Khin Nyunt made possible in turn made those groups stronger, though on a much smaller smaller scale rather similar to the Sino-American detente post-Mao made China what it is today. You've created a monster inadvertently through your own selfish designs. Nobody owes us a living. You make your bed and you lie in it. No, Burma is not big enough, nowhere near China's position. But that wouldn't stop the generals from trying. Why are the British always trying to punch above their weight? They usually end up as sidekicks at best and poodles at worst to the Americans. Still world domination has been the white man's obsession, not the Asian's, not since [556]Genghis Khan. And I doubt it the generals' wish ever was to be China's poodle. * [557]Recommend 7 * [558]Report * [559]Permalink * [560]reply [561]Bismarck888 [562]in reply to moe aung Jul 16th 2012 5:04 GMT "And why do you think it's worse now than in the 60s? Self isolation gave over to quasi-globalisation (after the game changing event of the 8888 Uprising) at least in the region plus Japan, Korea N&S and Russia, but without the West. This made the military stronger. The ceasefire deals with lucrative business opportunities for the armed ethnic groups that Khin Nyunt made possible in turn made those groups stronger, though on a much smaller smaller scale rather similar to the Sino-American detente post-Mao made China what it is today. You've created a monster inadvertently through your own selfish designs." One has the benefit of hindsight with regards to China, but at the the US was more scared of the USSR at the time. It took a long time before the West imposed sanctions, in 1996 the West made up 60% of the foreign investment in Myanmar. So it was not just Japan, Asia, etc. it will take a long time before they are completely lifted. With the US its has to be repelled by Congress. Its not easy to repeal a Congressional Bill. The Executive Order by Obama is just piecemeal. More when I was talking about the situation now begin worse than the early 1960s, I am talking about with regard vis-a-vis the ethnic minorities. The ethnic minorities have had autonomy for so long, the goal post have move so far back, I don't think even even ASSK could do much. [563]http://www.himalmag.com/component/content/article/5077-lady-libert y-and-... [564]http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LK05Ae02.html I was in Indonesia during overthrow of Suharto, and Indonesia on nearly all levels in 1998 had a much easier road in transitioning to democracy than Myanmar. I think the biggest difference is Indonesia, during Sukarno and Suharto, they actively worked to build a country to include almost all religious and ethnic groups. The largest ethnic group, the Javanese only make up 41%. [565]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Indonesia In many ways the histories of Indonesian and Myanmar are similar, Sukarno and Aung San both "collaborated" with the Japanese in order to secure independence. The difference is Aung San's life was cut short, while Sukarno spent the next 15 years screwing and give long rambling speeches on a weekly basis, while doing some nation building on the side. * [566]Recommend 7 * [567]Report * [568]Permalink * [569]reply [570]moe aung [571]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 16th 2012 19:09 GMT Even if Burma's military elite emulates their Indonesian counterparts in securing their tenure of domination, Suharto was overthrown whereas the military yoke still needs to be overthrown in Burma. Burmese militarist chauvinists are tougher and more entrenched than ever, today trying and beginning to acquire the mantle of respectability and legitimacy colluded by Western Big Business interests through their own politicians who in turn put pressure on ASSK to change tack and collaborate with the generals' custom made 'democratisation process'. She had very little choice in the matter in any case after two decades in limbo. Sanction busting in the meantime through legal loopholes and third party countries as you know happened; some of the big guys like Total and Chevron never left. Of course it was never enough for the generals and not for altruistic reasons as you said. The Bamar constituting a two thirds majority of the population has always been an advantage in favour of the ruling elite who have shown very little interest so far in honouring Panglong or seeking a mutually acceptable political solution with any of the indigenous minorities let alone the Chittagonians quite beyond the pale. Instead they would rather cut deals with the leadership of each group offering business incentives (that's where the autonomy is, be it drug trafficking or even gun-running) effectively buying 'peace' for the duration, but never addressing the real issues of injustice and legitimate grievances, let alone genuine self determination. The point is Burma will never enjoy peace and progress, genuine development and prosperity (not some paltry trickle-down for the people while the ruling military-crony class gets exponentially richer than ever, thanks to international capital all joining in a feeding frenzy) until we have collectively thrown off the military yoke once and for all. * [572]Recommend 4 * [573]Report * [574]Permalink * [575]reply [576]Bismarck888 [577]in reply to moe aung Jul 19th 2012 5:40 GMT Throughout SEA and China, there is always a ruling elite. Whether its Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, Burma, China. Suharto was overthrow, but the elites remain. The current President of Indonesia is a former general. Is not ASSK a part of the elite? The question is how well the ruling elite governs, good government often comes before clean government. Secondly, Myanmar has to go alot further than Panglong if its to remain one country. The Javanese in the 1920s were 48% of the population (shrunk because of lower relative birth rates, when Malay was adopted as Indonesia's national language by the revolutionaries. Malay is a second language for most Indonesians. Its a neutral language with little baggage. The 1950, the Indonesians castrated the local elite, by abolishing the use of titles. With one exception, all local sultans, royalty became ordinary citizens. For much of the period between 1950-1998, particularly during the Suharto period, most of the governors were former military men (almost all Javanese). When local direct elections were introduced about seven years ago, you start to see the emergence of the local elites. But its possible for a relative "nobody" to become mayor, like the current Mayor of Solo. Just removing the Junta is not going to solve much, because the Junta left the country divided and poor. In contrast, Indonesia's economic problem were largely acute in 1998, but Suharto had turned a dirt poor country into lower middle income country that was more or less united. There are some things, in my opinion, that can't be blamed on the Junta, like the ethnic minority problem. There were already bad blood between Bamar prior to the Junta taking over in 1962. The Junta made the situation worse, and unfortunately ASSK is not helping matters. NLD is primarily a Bamar organization, the ethnic minorities have their own block in Parliament. The worrying thing if there is full democracy, the NLD will win a large majority of the seats, the only non-NLD seats would be held by he minorities. What incentive does the NLD have for building coalitions? To be frank the most optimistic scenario is South Africa, ASSK wins the election, and governs the country for 8-10 years like Mandela. But the NLD is not ANC, they don't have as much contact with ethnic minorities in Myanmar. ASSK has spent so much time at loggerheads with the generals, and not building enough contacts with the minorities. Without solving the ethnic minority problems, the economic in Myanmar will never reach its full potential. Connecting a railway from Thailand to India, China to India through will dramatically change the pattern of trade / trade routes in Asia. * [578]Recommend 3 * [579]Report * [580]Permalink * [581]reply [582]moe aung [583]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 19th 2012 8:08 GMT Agreed. It takes two to tango but the lion's share of the blame has to be laid squarely at the door of the military junta. Elites need to consider the real national interest encompassing all groups, the minorities as well as the majority, and not as usual identify it only with their own class interest. The generals are strong on nationalism but weak on true patriotism for the greater good of the entire nation. Their patriotism stops with their own families and their cronies. They must go. The NLD is nothing like the ANC, not least in its total liberal dove commitment to non-violence plus the lack of mass organisation into taking effective mass action. Its problem will be the same as with the [584]AFPFL in office albeit its genesis entirely different. The AFPFL led by her father was more like the ANC and won us freedom from the colonial yoke. The question as you pointed out with Suharto's Indonesia is: is the elite happy with no more than the lion's share of the nation's wealth? This unfortunately for the country has not been the case with the Burmese military. * [585]Recommend 6 * [586]Report * [587]Permalink * [588]reply [589]Bismarck888 [590]in reply to moe aung Jul 20th 2012 3:31 GMT The difference is Suharto did not start out as bad, he developed the country, built roads, repaired irrigation system. Most of Indonesia's modern infrastructure was built during the Suharto period, particularly during the 1970-80s. Started in the mid 1980s he started to liberalize the economy and promote foreign investment. In the early 1980s there were already Western hotel chains, and soon followed by Western fast food chains shortly after. Suharto was Mickey Mouse compared to the Burmese Junta. As for the elites. Unlike most countries in SEA, the political and economic elites are divided along racial lines. The native control the bureaucracy, the economy is largely in the hands of Chinese Indonesian. Even after Suharto fell it has remained this way. There is a some good in this, in that it reduces the concentration of power. In terms of political and press freedom. Indonesia under Suharto is much more free than Vietnam, China, Myanmar and even Singapore. They had elections in which the ruling party won, but they least had elections. Toward the last ten years of his rule, people could buy the Economist, Times, Newsweek, WSJ in the big cities even with articles critical of his family and himself. That is why the comparisons to Indonesia in 1998 by Western journalist is laughable. Economically, Myanmar is where Indonesia was in the late 1970s. In politics, its basically in the same situation Indonesia was in the 1980s. Separatist movement was concentrated mainly in Aceh and East Timor, even Papua at the time was relatively peaceful. Western journalist had no problem travelling to Papia, unlike like now. * [591]Recommend 3 * [592]Report * [593]Permalink * [594]reply [595]moe aung [596]in reply to Bismarck888 Jul 20th 2012 13:10 GMT The difference is Suharto was America's baby to start with whereas the Burmese army has fought the CIA-backed KMT Chinese armies in eastern Burma as well as the Burmese communists. Burmese elites by and large are intensely nationalistic, so no such thing as the [597]Berkeley Boys in the army or the [598]Berkeley Mafia to advise economic policy. Remember Burma was a founding member of the [599]Bandung Conference Non-Aligned Movement. It shunned [600]SEATO and never joined the British Commonwealth after independence. So the similarity between the two countries stopped with the fall of Sukarno and the military seizing power with one fundamental difference in Indonesia namely a transition from the alleged Chinese sphere of influence to the US one. In the grand scheme of [601]the US containing communism in Asia with outstanding success in Indonesia without direct intervention as in Vietnam, it had been very comfortable with the wayward Burmese military elite since they were staunch anti-communists and they still are. Hence the US could always do business with Burma and would have done so had Ne Win not imposed enforced self isolation on the country. Ditching their bogus socialism after the 1988 Uprising and embracing the open market economy and globalisation launched them on the first steps of re-alignment with the West, but the pariah status they had deservedly achieved for themselves especially with the rise of ASSK as the democracy icon, and not least the collapse of the Communist Party of Burma, made them untouchable for the US. Now that the generals had changed tack and ASSK obliged to be coopted and collaborate, the ‘democratisation process’ has gathered momentum with Western capital poised to join in the feeding frenzy that has been going on since the country ‘opened up’ from the SLORC era post 1988. So you might say Burma has only just taken tentative steps in the direction of Suharto’s Indonesia. Burmese nationalism is something you have to witness to see how deeply visceral it is. This strong undercurrent of nationalism stands out in the generals’ approach to foreign investment compared with the Chinese one. The Burmese conundrum is a more complex one with more compounding factors than Indonesia. The $64,000 question is: are they going through a phase imperative to their real agenda of touting for more and more business in order to enrich themselves further and strengthen their grip on power, settling for a de facto one party state and showcasing pluralism? Or will they show their recidivist tendency once again whether in the face of increasingly confident popular forces testing their disciplined democracy or once they begin to lose their patience over the West 'dragging its feet'? * [602]Recommend 6 * [603]Report * [604]Permalink * [605]reply [606]guest-isnoowi Jul 12th 2012 20:00 GMT About South Asia, Southeast Asia, East Asia and Bamar terrorism: For millennia, the ethnic Bamar Burmese have viewed the ethnic minority in their country and the periphery as populated by barbarians and it is a mark of Bamar history to “eliminate”, “eradicate” and/or “Bamarize” them (bring them under Bamar cultural, economic and genetic control). Karen, Kachin and Shan were independent kingdoms until “recently” by historical standards. Of course, the Bamar are aware of ethnic minorities, but they will just dress up these “quaint people” as tourist attractions or simply just kill them (although Bamar leaders of course, will always wear Western suits). Bamar society is convinced of their cultural superiority (especially over those lazy backward neighbouring ethnic minorities), they have long-term political goals of Bamar ethnic dominance. The goal is to make the Burma Bamar only, and eventually make Southeast Asia and later the whole world Bamar. They might view the India and China as "worthy adversaries" that they have to compete against but ethnic minorities and Thais are not even looked upon by the Bamar as "equals". South China Sea, Indian Ocean and Thailand are strategic goals for the Bamar, which is why they are launching terrorist attacks to claim them. History ultimately is always written by the “conquerors”, but since the Bamar plan will probably not succeed, history is unlikely to be written by them. * [607]Recommend 34 * [608]Report * [609]Permalink * [610]reply [611]tocharian [612]in reply to guest-isnoowi Jul 12th 2012 20:31 GMT We report that the sinicisation of the periphery is proceeding at an alarming pace. If necessary, our glorious PLA (with the help of our proxy Wa army, the UWSA) is always ready to protect the dams, gas/oil pipeline, the naval base and other vital structures of "core interest" to the PRC in "Mianma". History will indeed be written by the winners! Long Live Chairman Mao! * [613]Recommend 34 * [614]Report * [615]Permalink * [616]reply [617]moe aung [618]in reply to guest-isnoowi Jul 13th 2012 12:07 GMT Too damned lazy even to recycle an argument properly, aren't we? Cut and paste jobs all over the place. Borrrring...zzzzz... * [619]Recommend 13 * [620]Report * [621]Permalink * [622]reply [623]happyfish18 [624]in reply to moe aung Jul 16th 2012 4:37 GMT Whatever the ethnics do to defend their rights, the land belong to their ancestors. If the MNCs are invited to exploit the land, they are entitled to a share of the revenue. Ethnic and cultural genocides often used as tool of the neo-Imperialists are conveniently ignored if the MNCs can prospered by trampling their rights. * [625]Recommend 5 * [626]Report * [627]Permalink * [628]reply [629]guest-isnoowi Jul 12th 2012 20:00 GMT The ethnic minorities of Myanmar form a good chunk of Burma and they could play a more important role, if the 50 minorities would put up a united stand against Bamar "hegemonial ambitions" (racist genocidal terrorism strategy). Most ethnic minority groups in Burma are rightfully worried ("Angst" is the word here) about the Bamar's bullying and threatening tactics to impose its will. The Bamars are using the classic "divide and conquer" strategy (that's why it is insisting on "bilateral talks" to push forward its preposterous genocidal activities against the Rohinyas, Karens, and many other ethnic groups). I think the Indian and Chinese roles might be more about giving Burmese ethnic minorities strong moral and political support and don't let the Bamars use the argument that Myanmar "belongs to them" where they can do whatever they want. * [630]Recommend 36 * [631]Report * [632]Permalink * [633]reply [634]tocharian [635]in reply to guest-isnoowi Jul 12th 2012 21:14 GMT I agree, the Chinese strategy is to break up "Myanmar". A "String of Pearls" in the Bay of Bengal is what China wants. They want to control the Indian Ocean (for their new aircraft carrier?) Perhaps they want to rename it South Tibetan Ocean! Arunachal Pradesh, Nepal, Bhutan and Kachin State are "claimed" by China as part of a Chinese province to be called "Nan Zhang". After the Paracel, Spratly and other islands in the "South-China Seas" it's now Ceylon and Kyaukphru in the "South-Tibetan Sea". I don't know what the Indians really think about it. * [636]Recommend 24 * [637]Report * [638]Permalink * [639]reply [640]guest-isnonin [641]in reply to tocharian Jul 12th 2012 21:55 GMT Actually the Chinese strategy is to partner with India, and all other groups of dark skinned people whom the Burmese are discriminating against, to form a "coalition of the willing" to liberate Myanmar and to rid the country of terrorists. You see the Burmese hate dark skinned people, and especially their dark skinned minorities, so it will be very easy to sign up different countries and ethnic groups within Burma for the cause. Free Myanmar from terrorist control! * [642]Recommend 35 * [643]Report * [644]Permalink * [645]reply [646]moe aung [647]in reply to guest-isnonin Jul 13th 2012 12:10 GMT You wish! Where have I heard this China-India partnership against the Burmese? Oh, you. Fat chance. * [648]Recommend 12 * [649]Report * [650]Permalink * [651]reply [652]guest-isnlooj Jul 12th 2012 19:56 GMT So if the Burmese/Kachin refuse to recognize the Rohinyas as Burmese citizens, even though the Rohinyas have been in Burma for many generations, why should the Chinese recognize Kachins as Chinese refugee/citizens? What goes around comes around? * [653]Recommend 42 * [654]Report * [655]Permalink * [656]reply [657]tocharian [658]in reply to guest-isnlooj Jul 12th 2012 20:06 GMT Whereas, Everyone in "Myanmar" welcomes their 2,000,000 strong Chinese cousins (tayoke paukphaws) to do lucrative business and exploit natural resources in Myanmar (or Mian-Dian) now therefore, Myanmarese (of the right ethnicity) demand that the UNHCR should take care of the 700,000 Rohingyas and ship them to the US (why not China?) * [659]Recommend 34 * [660]Report * [661]Permalink * [662]reply [663]guest-isnooow [664]in reply to tocharian Jul 12th 2012 20:33 GMT Open arms? What open arms? All I read are Burmese xenophobic posts toward the Rohinyas, Chinese and Karens all day on this website. You want to ship all the Rohinyas off to the USA and Karens off to Thailand? Why shouldn't China and the West (especially Canada!) ship all you terrorists back to Burma? * [665]Recommend 35 * [666]Report * [667]Permalink * [668]reply [669]moe aung [670]in reply to guest-isnlooj Jul 13th 2012 12:36 GMT Bangladesh does not want their own Chittagonian Bengalis back either. China has the [671]Jingpo as well as the [672]Dai and [673]Va (Wa) indigenous on their side of the border, so it's up to her. * [674]Recommend 17 * [675]Report * [676]Permalink * [677]reply [678]happyfish18 [679]in reply to moe aung Jul 16th 2012 4:27 GMT Unlike the illegal Banglas, the land on both sides of the border traditionally belong to the Wa, Why should the Wa be shipped out to China? They may want to unite the land with their brethen if they are oppressed further, It is best the Central government allow them to retain some share of the revenues from explioting the riches. * [680]Recommend 6 * [681]Report * [682]Permalink * [683]reply [684]moe aung [685]in reply to happyfish18 Jul 16th 2012 15:45 GMT Autonomy does mean self determination in running their own domestic affairs up to a point within the union. As for defense the Wa are considering the prospects of transforming their own troops to [686]a state-controlled militia. China definitely has a say in this and presumably Chinese pressure has led to the current scenario. An independent unified Wa state however seems unlikely. * [687]Recommend 6 * [688]Report * [689]Permalink * [690]reply [691]tocharian Jul 12th 2012 19:48 GMT Crouching Kachin, Hidden Chinese. * [692]Recommend 30 * [693]Report * [694]Permalink * [695]reply [696]happyfish18 Jul 12th 2012 15:56 GMT Unless the Kachins Independence army get a share of the electricity sale, it is unlikely that they would allow the proposed dam to flood their poppy fields which produce their only cash crop. Otherwise the people will continue the to move across the border into China to escape the Myanmarese offensive to clear the land. * [697]Recommend 26 * [698]Report * [699]Permalink * [700]reply [701]tocharian [702]in reply to happyfish18 Jul 12th 2012 20:18 GMT The Human Rights nonsense is just a red herring (only good for getting political asylum in the West) It seems like a lot of "Mianmese" (of course of the right ethnicity) are very willing to work as "Untermenschen" for the benefit of the Great Chinese Economic Leapfrog Forward. Who cares about the Irrawaddy Dolphins? Dam all the rivers in Mian-Dian to flood all those damn poppy fields (but not the gas/oil pipeline and the jade mines please) * [703]Recommend 30 * [704]Report * [705]Permalink * [706]reply [707]guest-isnnmaj [708]in reply to tocharian Jul 13th 2012 3:10 GMT Well the Kachins are trading opium for a more globally acceptable form of income. Why blame them for that? I guess the Bamars such as yourself can still supply the world with opium even after they stop... * [709]Recommend 23 * [710]Report * [711]Permalink * [712]reply [713]happyfish18 [714]in reply to guest-isnnmaj Jul 16th 2012 4:34 GMT All the ethnics want is a share of the revenue from their riches. It is best the government recognise that and not just to share between themselves and the incoming MNCs alone after freeing of sanction by the neo-Imperialists. Otherwise ethnic war is inevitable. * [715]Recommend 4 * [716]Report * [717]Permalink * [718]reply [719]Hektor Konomi Jul 12th 2012 14:14 GMT China won't let Myanmar easily out of its sphere of influence. * [720]Recommend 23 * [721]Report * [722]Permalink * [723]reply [724]moe aung Jul 12th 2012 9:01 GMT The Kachin community leader voiced a popular Burmese opinion over this whole elaborate show orchestrated by the military elite. “Even if [Mr Thein] Sein is serious about reforming this country, his power is limited; he can be removed at any time,” says a Kachin community leader in the northern city of Myitkyina, who refused to be identified. “How do we really know he’s not just being used by the military leaders to extract more money and prestige from the West?” When the West can hardly wait to join in the feeding frenzy making very approving noises over the 'reforms', why would China let up and back off what they already have ahead of the game? China nonetheless had better realise what is in its long term interests instead of taking a greedy hence necessarily myopic stance over its neighbour. It has so far been investing in a lasting animosity on the part of the entire Burmese nation. Upper Burma is simmering with resentment against the laobans - immigrant Chinese who have bought their way in - the slightest spark can trigger a repeat of the 1967 riots that could dwarf the sectarian violence in western Burma. Having said that the Burmese ruling elites of whatever political colour or composition are likely to maintain [725]good relations with their biggest and most important neighbour to the east. * [726]Recommend 19 * [727]Report * [728]Permalink * [729]reply [730]Devils Advocate_1 [731]in reply to moe aung Jul 13th 2012 5:59 GMT [Having said that the Burmese ruling elites of whatever political colour or composition are likely to maintain good relations with their biggest and most important neighbour to the east.] Guess you are not referring to China which is to Myanmar's north . * [732]Recommend 16 * [733]Report * [734]Permalink * [735]reply [736]moe aung [737]in reply to Devils Advocate_1 Jul 13th 2012 11:45 GMT Geography not your strong point then. It's always been known as our eastern neighbour (the sun rises from out of the Shan Plateau) though strictly speaking China is northeast and us southwest to it. * [738]Recommend 14 * [739]Report * [740]Permalink * [741]reply * [742]Comment (97) * [743]Print * [744]E-mail * [745]Permalink * [746]Reprints & permissions * About Banyan Analysis of Asian politics and culture, from our Banyan columnist and other correspondents. Named for a tree whose branches have sheltered great ideas [747]Follow us on Twitter @EconAsia [748]RSS feed Advertisement Explore trending topics Comments and tweets on popular topics Latest blog posts - All times are GMT [_0011_democracy-in-america.png] [749]Presidential power: When is a recess really a recess? 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