There are many reasons why people choose to go vegetarian or vegan. Some are compelled by the environmental impact of confinement animal feeding operations (CAFO). Others are guided by ethical concerns or religious reasons. I respect these reasons and appreciate anyone who thinks deeply about the social and spiritual impact of their food choices—even if my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer.
But many choose a vegetarian diet is because they’re under the impression that it’s a healthier choice from a nutritional perspective. It is this last reason that I’d like to address in this article. For the last fifty years, we’ve been told that meat, eggs and animal fats are bad for us, and that we’ll live longer and enjoy superior health if we minimize or avoid them. This idea has been so thoroughly drilled into our head that few people even question it anymore. In fact, if you asked the average person on the street whether a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier than an omnivorous diet, they’d probably say yes. But is this really true?
Plant-based diets emphasize vegetables, which are quite nutrient dense, and fruits, which are somewhat nutrient dense. However, they also typically include large amounts of cereal grains (refined and unrefined) and legumes, both of which are low in bioavailable nutrients and high in anti-nutrients such as phytate, and they eschew organ meats, meats, fish and shellfish, which are among the most nutrient-dense foods you can eat. (1)
Vegan diets, in particular, are almost completely devoid of certain nutrients that are crucial for physiological function. Several studies have shown that both vegetarians and vegans are prone to deficiencies in B12, calcium, iron, zinc, the long-chain fatty acids EPA & DHA, and fat-soluble vitamins like A & D.
Let’s take a closer look at each of these nutrients on a vegetarian or vegan diet.
Are plant-based diets missing nutrients required for optimal health? Find out!
Vitamin B12
B12 deficiency is especially common in vegetarians and vegans. I’ve covered the prevalence of B12 deficiency in vegetarians and vegans at length in another article. The takeaway is that the most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that 68% of vegetarians and 83% of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 5% of omnivores. (2)
Vitamin B12 works together with folate in the synthesis of DNA and red blood cells. It’s also involved in the production of the myelin sheath around the nerves, and the conduction of nerve impulses. B12 deficiency can cause numerous problems, including:
- Fatigue
- Lethargy
- Weakness
- Memory loss
- Neurological and psychiatric problems
- Anemia
- And much more…
The effects of B12 deficiency on kids are especially alarming. Studies have shown that kids raised until age 6 on a vegan diet are still B12 deficient years after adding at least some animal products to their diet. In one study, the researchers found:
…a significant association between cobalamin [B12] status and performance on tests measuring fluid intelligence, spatial ability and short-term memory” with formerly vegan kids scoring lower than omnivorous kids in each case. (3)
The deficit in fluid intelligence is particularly troubling, the researchers said, because:
…it involves reasoning, the capacity to solve complex problems, abstract thinking ability and the ability to learn. Any defect in this area may have far-reaching consequences for individual functioning.
A common myth amongst vegetarians and vegans is that it’s possible to get B12 from plant sources like seaweed, fermented soy, spirulina and brewers yeast. But plant foods said to contain B12 actually contain B12 analogs called cobamides that block the intake of, and increase the need for, true B12. (4)
Calcium
On paper, calcium intake is similar in vegetarians and omnivores (probably because both eat dairy products), but is much lower in vegans, who are often deficient. (5) However, calcium bioavailability from plant foods is affected by their levels of oxalate and phytate, which are inhibitors of calcium absorption and thus decrease the amount of calcium the body can extract from plant foods. (5a) So while leafy greens like spinach and kale have a relatively high calcium content, the calcium is not efficiently absorbed during digestion.
One study suggests that it would take 16 servings of spinach to get the same amount of absorbable calcium as an 8 ounce glass of milk. (5b) That would be 33 cups of baby spinach or around 5-6 cups of cooked spinach. There are a few vegetables listed in this paper that have higher levels of bioavailable calcium, but it’s important to note that all of the vegetables tested required multiple servings to achieve the same amount of usable calcium as one single serving of milk, cheese, or yogurt. This suggests that trying to meet your daily calcium needs from plant foods alone (rather than dairy products or bone-in fish) might not be a great strategy.
Iron
Vegetarians and omnivores have similar levels of serum iron, but levels of ferritin—the long-term storage form of iron—are lower in vegetarians than in omnivores. (6) This is significant, because ferritin depletion is the first stage of iron deficiency. Moreover, although vegetarians often have similar iron intakes to omnivores on paper, it is more common for vegetarians (and particularly vegans) to be iron deficient. For example, this study of 75 vegan women in Germany found that 40% of them were iron deficient, despite average iron intakes that were above the recommended daily allowance. (7)
Why would this be? As with calcium, the bioavailability of the iron in plant foods is much lower than in animal foods. Plant-based forms of iron are also inhibited by other commonly consumed substances, such as coffee, tea, dairy products, supplemental fiber, and supplemental calcium. This explains why vegetarian diets have been shown to reduce non-heme iron absorption by 70% and total iron absorption by 85%. (7.5)
Zinc
Overt zinc deficiency is not often seen in Western vegetarians, but their intake often falls below recommendations. This is another case where bioavailability is important; many plant foods that contain zinc also contain phytate, which inhibits zinc absorption. Vegetarian diets tend to reduce zinc absorption by about 35% compared with omniovorous diet. (8) Thus, even when the diet meets or exceeds the RDA for zinc, deficiency may still occur. One study suggested that vegetarians may require up to 50% more zinc than omnivores for this reason. (9)
EPA and DHA
Plant foods do contain linoleic acid (omega-6) and alpha-linolenic acid (omega-3), both of which are considered essential fatty acids. In this context, an essential fatty acid is one that can’t be synthesized by the body and must be obtained in the diet. However, an increasing body of research has highlighted the benefits of the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids EPA & DHA. These fatty acids play a protective and therapeutic role in a wide range of diseases: cancer, asthma, depression, cardiovascular disease, ADHD, and autoimmune diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis.
While it is possible for some alpha-linolenic acid from plant foods to be converted into EPA & DHA, that conversion is poor in humans: between 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% for DHA. (10) Vegetarians have 30% lower levels of EPA & DHA than omnivores, while vegans have 50% lower EPA and nearly 60% lower DHA. (11) Moreover, the conversion of ALA to DHA depends on zinc, iron and pyridoxine—nutrients which vegetarians and vegans are less likely than omnivores to get enough of.
Fat-soluble vitamins: A and D
Perhaps the biggest problem with vegetarian and vegan diets, however, is their near total lack of two fat-soluble vitamins: A and D. Fat-soluble vitamins play numerous and critical roles in human health. Vitamin A promotes healthy immune function, fertility, eyesight and skin. Vitamin D regulates calcium metabolism, regulates immune function, reduces inflammation and protects against some forms of cancer.
These important fat-soluble vitamins are concentrated, and in some cases found almost exclusively, in animal foods: primarily seafood, organ meats, eggs and dairy products. Some obscure species of mushrooms can provide large amounts of vitamin D, but these mushrooms are rarely consumed and often difficult to obtain. (This explains why vitamin D levels are 58% lower in vegetarians and 74% lower in vegans than in omnivores.) (12)
The idea that plant foods contain vitamin A is a common misconception. Plants contain beta-carotene, the precursor to active vitamin A (retinol). While beta-carotene is converted into vitamin A in humans, the conversion is inefficient. (13) For example, a single serving of liver per week would meet the RDA of 3,000 IU. To get the same amount from plant foods, you’d have to eat 2 cups of carrots, one cup of sweet potatoes or 2 cups of kale every day. Moreover, traditional cultures consumed up to 10 times the RDA for vitamin A. It would be nearly impossible to get this amount of vitamin A from plant foods without juicing or taking supplements.
But don’t vegetarians live longer than omnivores?
At this point you might be thinking, “Well, so what if plant-based diets are lower in some nutrients. Everyone knows vegetarians live longer than omnivores!” While it’s true that some observational studies suggest that vegetarians and vegans enjoy longer lifespans, these studies were plagued by the “healthy user bias”. The healthy user bias is the scientific way of saying that people who engage in one behavior that is perceived as healthy (whether it is or not) are more likely to engage in other behaviors that are healthy. For example, vegetarians tend to be more health conscious on average than general population; they are less likely to smoke or drink excessively and more likely to exercise, eat fruits and vegetables and take care of themselves. (14)
Of course the flip-side is also true: those that engage in behaviors perceived to be unhealthy are more likely to engage in other unhealthy behaviors. The healthy user bias is one of the main reasons it’s so difficult to infer causality from observational studies. For example, say a study shows that eating processed meats like bacon and hot dogs increases your risk of heart disease. Let’s also say, as the healthy user bias predicts, that those who eat more bacon and hot dogs also eat a lot more refined flour (hot dog and hamburger buns), sugar and industrial seed oils, and a lot less fresh fruits, vegetables and soluble fiber. They also drink and smoke more, exercise less and generally do not take care of themselves very well. How do we know, then, that it’s the processed meat that is increasing the risk of heart disease rather than these other things—or perhaps some combination of these other things and the processed meat?
One way to answer that question is to design a study that attempts to control for at least some of the healthy user bias. In other words, instead of comparing the “average” meat eater (who tends to be less health conscious) with the “average” vegetarian (who tends to be more health conscious), what happens when you compare vegetarians and omnivores that are both health-conscious?
Thankfully, we have a study that did just that. It compared the mortality of people who shopped in health food stores (both vegetarians and omnivores) to people in the general population. This was a clever study design. People who shop in health food stores are more likely to be health conscious, regardless of whether they eat meat, which reduces the likelihood that the study results will be thrown off by the “healthy user bias”. What did the researchers find? Both vegetarians and omnivores in the health food store group lived longer than people in the general population—not surprising given their higher level of health consciousness—but there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups. (15) In other words, omnivores who are health conscious live just as long as vegetarians that are health conscious.
Final thoughts
With care and attention, I think it’s possible to meet nutrient needs with a vegetarian diet that includes liberal amounts of pasture-raised, full-fat dairy and eggs, with one exception: EPA and DHA. These long-chain omega fats are found exclusively in marine algae and fish and shellfish, so the only way to get them on a vegetarian diet would be to take a microalgae supplement (which contains DHA) or bend the rules and take fish oil or cod liver oil as a supplement. Still, while it may be possible to obtain adequate nutrition on a vegetarian diet, it is not optimal—as the research above indicates.
I do not think it’s possible to meet nutrient needs on a vegan diet without supplements—and quite a few of them. Vegan diets are low in B12, biovailable iron and zinc, choline, vitamin A & D, calcium, and EPA and DHA. So if you’re intent on following a vegan diet, make sure you are supplementing with those nutrients.
It’s worth pointing out that there are genetic differences that affect the conversion of certain nutrient precursors (like beta-carotene and alpha-linolenic acid) into the active forms of those nutrients (like retinol and EPA and DHA, respectively), and these differences may affect how long someone will be able to follow a vegetarian or vegan diet before they develop nutrient deficiencies. This explains why some people seem to do well for years on these diets, while others develop problems very quickly.
From an evolutionary perspective, is difficult to justify a diet with low levels of several nutrients critical to human function. While it may be possible to address these shortcomings through targeted supplementation (an issue that is still debated), it makes far more sense to meet nutritional needs from food. This is especially important for children, who are still developing and are even more sensitive to suboptimal intake of the nutrients discussed in this article. Like all parents, vegetarians and vegans want the best for their children. Unfortunately, many are not aware of the potential for nutrient deficiencies posed by their dietary choices.
I hope this article can serve as a resource for anyone on a plant-based diet, whether they choose to start eating meat (or animal products, in the case of vegans) again or not.
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Irene says
I’m so sick of every tablet and vitamin out there being “vegan” that I literally decided to take a break from taking vitamins for a few months. I’m sure my energy will suffer, but I just can’t face the continual hopscotch of “no, that one has FOS, no that one has iron in it, no that one has ginkgo, no, that one has a bizarre ratio of vitamin a to c… etc”
Whoever comes out with a line of NOT vegetarian vitamins with good things in it to help people with gut problems, they will be my #1 brand. For heaven’s sake, use gelatin, people! Give me magnesium sulphate (epsom salt) for my magnesium… please! It works great for my gut. Add molybdenum, or a bunch of trace minerals, give me iron free and iron containing options, give me the option to leave out the calcium/magnesium if I want… Is there someplace that makes custom vitamins? Maybe I should ask at a compounding pharmacy.
Sylvia Lopedota says
Any functional medicine principles info on fibromyalgia would be helpful to me and others. . I’m already on anti inflammatory diet and have followed the Gaps diet in 2015. I Eat fermented foods and take probiotic supliments. I choose sardines , eggs , salmon and chicken stew for proteins. Avacado, butter , nuts for fats. White rice and select veggs daily. Thanks for an interesting site. Very helpful.
goo says
Syl says
Thanks so much. Also enjoyed Dr John Bergmans video as well. How to Reverse Fibro as well. And others.
Tom says
Why the F**K are you dressed as a doctor on this website? You aren’t a medical practitioner.
SCAM!
Dr D says
it is purely a personal preference based entirely upon personal reasons or should be. as for health; you can be a healthy vegetarian just as you can be a healthy omnivore. there are certainly some things you need to address with regard to nutrition and potential health concerns if you choose vegetarianism but then again so there will be with eating meats too. we can go back and forth yelling about which is the better lifestyle and the answer is simple, whichever one you prefer. as a physician and clinical nutritionist for over two decades i have treated many vegetarians and many meat eaters. imo the problem with our health and nutrition issues in this country arent meat or non meat based but instead; sugars. but thats for another topic forum.
Merr says
This was the most uneducated article on veganism and vegetarianism I have EVER read. Well, besides one that states that vegans and vegetarians eat animal flesh. Which is also a false.. like most of the BS I just wasted my time reading. But there are so many “facts” and statistics backed by your “research” with 50 WOW, 50!!! participants that are just absolutely ridiculous and incorrect. I do not understand how this could be published, and you are considered to be someone people go to for advice on health and nutrition. My cat knows more about animal products than you do, and by the sounds of things, she eats a healthier diet. Anyway, this was a waste of my time, and as someone who is a vegan of 30 years, and 9 months if you count the time I was in the womb (omg I am surviving) I am NOT lacking these nutrients, I take a simple multi-vitamin, my blood work is pristine from my physician when needed and I am not deficient in any of the above nutrients. And guess what, I have a younger brother who was raised vegan as well, and we are both thriving, are not FAT like the rest of America because we are not EATING COWS and other innocent animals. SO NO, there is no reason to think twice about going vegan or vegetarian. If you want to be vegan or vegetarian, do it! Do it for the animals, for your health, for the planet, or just do it for the hell of it! You will thank me later when you stop getting the common cold, when you lose that stubborn weight, when you start to feel better, and when those pesky diseases this fool writes about on this blog start disappearing, because your health is everything. Good luck!
Greg Brown says
Oh lord, all these animal activist people. The article doesn’t even have anything to do with animals, Its about NUTRITION. Chill out !
http://witnessgoodfitness.com/
Nina says
I would also like to comment that while these things may be true of Stereotypical vegetarians and vegans, that would be including all vegans and vegetarians who do not necessarily calculate WHAT they eat, merely just not meat and dairy
Secondly, there are only 14 articles used to support this theory. There are dozens and dozens more articles supporting plant based diets as a way to cure and reverse chronic diseases. In addition most of the articles he sites are not double blind placebo controlled randomized control studies, therefore do not have the highest level of evidence. They are also very small sample size studies therefore not able to be generalized to a larger population.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Let’s get real here. It is well-nigh impossible to conduct long-term, double-blind, placebo controlled study on diet. You have a way of feeding humans different diets so that they do not know what they are eating? And what might a “placebo food” be? There are no tests of plant-based diets fitting these criteria, either. Tests of human diets are correlational/observational by their nature. We can argue these points until the cows come home, or the soybeans are harvested, but there are uncertainties and bias in all analyses of human diets. When the Cochrane group recently analyzed the “studies” correlating CVD and saturated fats, they found no conclusive evidence to support the advice to replace saturated fats with unsaturated ones, despite years of advice to do so by the medial establishment. I am not sure what you mean by stating “there are only 14 articles used to support this theory”. What “theory”? And why would you think the number of “articles” (pop media reporting? peer-reviewed studies? other?) is the defining factor for any “theory”, as opposed to the quality of supporting research?
Sue says
I find these types of articles amusing. But also a little irresponsible. I’ll explain.
First, I should make clear that most people don’t have access to the kind of research the author (I’m guessing) does. PubMed and other peer-reviewed sources that professionals refer to are typically off limits (and often too expensive) for the layperson to access. But without them, the public is vulnerable because it’s impossible to properly fact check any of this stuff, which, I’m sure, is a large factor in why we have so much conflicting advice out there.
The thing is, if you did have access you’d learn that yes, vegans on average DO tend to be deficient in a number of nutrients (namely B12, D, Calcium and Zinc). That’s good news right? Absolutely, particularly if you stop there.
But in this case, there’s more to the story. See, if you can view the vegan numbers you can also see the other numbers. And here’s where it gets messy for the author and others like him… Turns out, almost EVERY lifestyle diet has tendencies for deficiencies in various critical nutrients (vegan, Paleo, SAD, etc) and the nutrients vary depending on which diet you follow.
This is a pretty big omission. It muddies the author’s own argument so I see why he left it out, but it certainly can’t reflect well on his professionalism.
But let’s get back to this trend of cross-platform deficiencies.
In Tech-speak, we might classify this as a “user error” issue. In other words, if “users” are experiencing the same problem (i.e.: nutrient shortfalls) regardless of which software they use, the first place to look might be to the user. In this case, it appears that misinformed consumers of all stripes don’t know (or care) enough about nutrition to make sure they’re addressing whatever likely deficiency their preferred diet tends to lack.
Look, I’m not here to bash ANY particular diet. My point is this: a false equivalency persists among the general public about nutrition because of information out there like this, which on the surface is factually correct, but omits just enough to skew toward whatever agenda serves the author’s business model. In the end, the consumer winds up the loser.
Bottom line: If information isn’t balanced, it’s safe to assume there’s an agenda.
Over and out.
jessica says
What a fantastic, intelligent, rational and unbiased response. Thank you!
deanna says
I find it unfortunate that your blog will not allow contrary views and healthy debate by taking an extraordinarily length of time to moderate and post an extremely respectful reply.
And, I have also noticed, you do not place reply buttons on most of the pro Paleo, pro grass-fed comments, while always putting a reply button on others.
I think all of your readers, want a real debate, not one that is manipulated in any way, except for the rare exception of someone being inappropriate.
deanna says
Reply to Annie,
I have already mentioned I am veganish with a bit of fish, frequent nori seaweed, and lots of chia, flax and some walnuts, so I do get lots of omega-3’s in my diet, eliminate vegetable oils, so a good omega ratio, including EPA and DHA in my diet. But, thanks, I guess, for your concern on my DHA.
I just don’t eat any mammal meats, eggs or dairy. So feel free to point out that I am not getting enough cholesterol, choline, (actually collard greens) saturated fats, carnitine, calcium (chia, kale, bok choy, fortified plant milks) heme iron in my diet, if you wish. I got really thick skin.
Secondly,
My beef with grass fed beef, is the amount of land, and crops (hay, wheat straw in case of grass fed beef) needed to grow and, most of all, the effects of the poop.
Organic Legumes, grains and tubers do not have these problems. I include tubers like sweet potatoes, as an example, because they actually are a good calorie, and decent calcium and other mineral, nutrient rich food that can replace some of calories and nutrients from grass-fed butter, cheese and milk, with a lot less sodium, than cheese and butter.
Paired with just a tbsp. of chia, or a little cooked bok choy (more calcium) they easily replace dairy servings in the diet, and they are so prolific, even in colder Midwest climates.
In organic soil, it is amazing the pound of product and calories you can get in such a small space! The kids at school were amazed at the growth underground and the immense harvest they had.
I have not seen any scientific evidence from you showing me growing organic beans and whole grains for human consumption takes more land, resources, water, habitat loss, loss of animal habitat or life etc. than grass fed beef.
Remember, most crop farming is for animal consumption, 70% in America.
The beans and grains are a good nutritional substitute for b-vitamins and protein in meats. While grains and seeds provide the zinc.
In my opinion, great nutrition without the poop problem.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Again, you are complaining about things I never said. Please copy and paste in your reply the alleged comment where I claimed that growing said vegetable foods takes more resources than producing beef. As far as the “poop” and the land, I have already steered you to references, including CK’s newest blog, that the “poop” enriches the land on which the livestock are grazed, just as the poop of wild herd animals has done for millions of years: and that it does not “take” arable land for livestock production. Grass-fed livestock are, as those references note, raised on scrub and grasslands unsuitable for any agricultural purpose other than grass-feeding. So, even after I gave you sources, you have just reiterated the same opinion that you did several comments prior. So, as another commenter asked me, “why do I bother?”
deanna says
You make it sound that grass fed cows’ poop, water and forage needs have no impact on the environment and, this is simply not true.
If the government, said 100% no to grain feeding cows, and we had 100% grass-fed operations, this would still cause an environmental problem due to the green house gases, including refrigeration, transportation, methane, and production of hay, and wheat straw to feed these cows.
Grass feeding cows does not magically take away the environmental problems of beef production to meet American very high demands for beef.
Though I think, grass fed is better nutritionally and in many environmental ways, these animals take much longer to fatten up. This may mean 2 more years of eating forage, meaning 2 more years of farting and pooping, before their meat is harvested.
As far as the bonus of manure used as fertilizer, the same fertilizer can be found by composting the non-edibles of the legume, grain and tuber plants. So, the stalks, leaves etc. can be composted.
If people choose organic beans and grains, these plant parts, as well as, city grass and tree clippings can be recycled to enrich soils. We really don’t need all that poop.
I really do want to be open minded about this. Can you give me a scientific comparison of green house gases, water, and land needs for a 4 oz. serving of grass fed beef to a 4 oz. serving of beans?
go says
annie is missing the point and on another rant.
the reason deanna posted her diet is because annie accused her of not having enough preformed dha.
so i must assume that annie has overdosed on dha, which is causing the comprehension problems.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
It is extremely arrogant, presumptuous, and inaccurate of you to think you can assess what I am “missing”. I know very well what Deanna’s diet includes, as she posted it several comments back — perhaps you “missed” it? However, eating “a bit of” fish does not guarantee one is getting enough DHA. You “missed it” completely, but that was a bit of snark because of comments she made. “On a rant” — that’s amusing. Perhaps if you did not project so much, you could follow the thread and recognize a bit of sarcasm.
go says
It is extremely arrogant, presumptuous, and inaccurate of you to make a comment about Deanna and DHA and write it off as “a bit of sarcasm”
talk about projection.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Oh, didn’t you just gripe about “parroting”? If a little snark bothers you so, perhaps the mean ol’ freewheeling “Net is not the best venue for your tender constitution.
deanna says
I really want to be open minded.
Could you give me a comparison of greenhouse gases, land and water use of 4oz. of grass-fed beef and 4 oz. of organic beans for human consumption?
You assume grass-fed beef is on non arable land and that somehow there is this infinite supply of non-arable land for all people to eat grass-fed vs. grain fed beef, making it sustainable for the whole world, but this is not reality.
If the govt. said no to grain fed beef, the same issues of poop, and land and water use would remain, even if these animals are fed forage.
Also, non-edible parts of bean, tuber or grain plants are composted and used to fertilize soil. Along with tree, grass and shrub clippings from urban areas to fertilize plant sourced proteins; we don’t need the poop fertilizer.
Viewed a presentation by environmental scientists tonight, who said that grass fed cows need about 70 pounds of forage food daily, and because they take longer to come to slaughter, release more greenhouse gases in their lifetime, than grain cows. I do not agree with grain fed ruminant livestock, however.
It also takes huge amounts of water!!
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Deanna, please check out the references I’ve already given, especially CK’s latest blog. I’m not going to waste time reinventing the wheel with yet another calculation. You’ll find in CK’s interview (the latest blog) why there is such wide variation in “unit this per pound of that” — the numbers are highly dependent on the base assumptions (which are arbitrary) and the weighting assigned to various factors (e. g. feeding the world’s population vs. minimizing GHG vs. minimizing all-cause mortality vs. whatever-your-pet-priority-is). I also gave a reference to a recent study done by a team of scientists from Cornell University and other institutions, and published in the journal Elementa, that concluded farming for a lacto-vegetarian diet is the overall “best” choice for land use. And that requires cows.
Stephen says
What I just can’t understand is why you feel the need to detail your achievements and education in quite such a confrontational manner. You are obviously very well read on the subject – I congratulate you. However, I suspect your complaints about veganism have fallen on deaf ears, including my own. I think perhaps your passion could be better exercised in a more suitable forum. Enjoy your retirement – put it to better use than arguing with strangers on the internet about what they choose to put in their bodies!
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Interesting that you think I am being argumentative, when there are some commenters sending 10-15 replies to me every day, asking for citations, justification for producing certain foods, etc. Perhaps your comment says more about your mindset than my posts. I don’t care what people eat. I have never told folks they should eat meat or dairy or anything else. There are some here that feel compelled to attempt to lay a guilt trip on those that follow an omnivorous diet, and actually tell others what percentage certain foods should make up in their diets. But, it easy to see what you want to see, rather than what’s there, when you have an agenda.
Go says
Diet should not be immune to critique just as religion should not be. Can I lay a guilt trip on those who eat my human friends? Would that be allowed? Some people equate animals and humans thereby avoiding speciesism.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Although another person’s diet OR his religion is none of your business, you make yourself a sanctimonious clown by pretending to be the “moral” scold of this blog. By all means, if anyone kills and eats a human friend of yours, criticize away. Most would think it more effective to call 911 and report the murder, but, in your case, none would be surprised if you used the occasion for a frugivore screed.
Go says
What a bizarre response. You are deep in denial. Why have you not sent your pets to me yet
AnnieLaurie Burke says
What a psychopath! All that sugar from too much fruit does that to people. If one of your friends gets killed and eaten, you’d be my prime suspect.
Go says
Speciesism. Hypocrite.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
No, dear, you are the hypocrite. You are a speciest, too, but you want to pretend otherwise. If it were worth my time, it would be easy to do reductio ad absurdum in your case. The natural world is speciest. You like to call others denialists, but that’s just your projecting.
deanna says
I did see the lacto-ovo- vegetarian as winner in another article I read also.
So beans are better than beef, for your choice of protein!!
Almond milks and fish would not be the best eco choice for calcium, agree with that.
However, there are a couple of big problems with this. Many Americans, particularly if you are not caucasian, are lactose intolerant. Those like me, who have breast and ovarian cancer in family history… will not touch bovine estrogens and progesterones with a ten foot pole.
And, if you are already vegetarian, eating conventional eggs will certainly tip your omega ratios in the wrong direction- omega 6 heavy. (Though organic, omega 3 enhance would have a much better ratio).
deanna says
From: Food Revolution Network:
https://foodrevolution.org/blog/the-truth-about-grassfed-beef/
There is a dark side even to grassfed beef. It takes a lot of grassland to raise a grassfed steer. Western rangelands are vast, but not nearly vast enough to sustain America’s 100 million head of cattle. There is no way that grassfed beef can begin to feed the current meat appetites of people in the United States, much less play a role in addressing world hunger. Grassfed meat production might be viable in a country like New Zealand with its geographic isolation, unique climate and topography, and exceedingly small human population. But in a world of 7 billion people, I am afraid that grassfed beef is a food that only the wealthy elites will be able to consume in any significant quantities.
What would happen if we sought to raise great quantities of grassfed beef? It’s been tried, in Brazil, and the result has been an environmental nightmare of epic proportions. In 2009, Greenpeace released a report titled “Slaughtering the Amazon,” which presented detailed satellite photos showing that Amazon cattle are now the biggest single cause of global deforestation, which is in turn responsible for 20 percent of the world’s greenhouse gases. Even Brazil’s government, whose policies have made the nation the world’s largest beef exporter, and home to the planet’s largest commercial cattle herd, acknowledges that cattle ranching is responsible for 80 percent of Amazonian deforestation. Much of the remaining 20 percent is for land to grow soy, which is not used to make tofu. It is sold to China to feed livestock.
Amazonian cattle are free-range, grassfed, and possibly organic, but they are still a plague on the planet and a driving force behind global warming.
Trendy consumers like to think that grassfed beef is green and earth-friendly and does not have environmental problems comparable to factory farmed beef. But grassfed and feedlot beef production both contribute heavily to global climate change. They do this through emissions of two potent global warming gases: methane and nitrous oxide.
Next to carbon dioxide, the most destabilizing gas to the planet’s climate is methane. Methane is actually 24 times more potent a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, and its concentration in the atmosphere is rising even faster. The primary reason that concentrations of atmospheric methane are now triple what they were when they began rising a century ago is beef production. Cattle raised on pasture actually produce more methane than feedlot animals, on a per-cow basis. The slower weight gain of a grassfed animal means that each cow produces methane emissions for a longer time.
Meanwhile, producing a pound of grassfed beef accounts for every bit as much nitrous oxide emissions as producing a pound of feedlot beef, and sometimes, due to the slower weight gain, even more. These emissions are not only fueling global warming. They are also acidifying soils, reducing biodiversity, and shrinking Earth’s protective stratospheric ozone layer.
deanna says
Couple problems with this:
Most adults who are not caucasian, are lactose intolerant.
Women, like me with breast and ovarian cancer in family history, would not touch bovine estrogens, progesterones and natural growth hormones with 10 foot pole.
And, vegetarians, already not eating fish, when including conventional eggs and dairy would be tipping their ratios of omegas, way into too much omega-6. Though omega3 enriched eggs do have a better profile, and grass fed a bit better on dairy.
But the study does show beans are more economically friendly than meats, as primary protein source.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
If you disagree with the study, why not argue the points with the authors? I am not getting paid to defend anyone’s studies; I just pointed it out as a reference, among many, that disagrees with your position. Your statement on lactose intolerance is not correct; lactase persistence is prevalent in many populations that have traditionally been herders. There are peoples in Africa that measure their wealth in cattle, and whose diets are rich in dairy products. Likewise in Asia. I’d suggest you track down the study, and contact the authors for further info if the article does not address your questions.
deanna says
Scientific study at Cornell on lactose intolerance:
Sherman and former Cornell undergraduate student Gabrielle Bloom ’03, now a graduate student at the University of Chicago, compiled data on lactose intolerance (the inability to digest dairy products) from 270 indigenous African and Eurasian populations in 39 countries, from southern Africa to northern Greenland. Their findings will be published in a forthcoming issue of Evolution and Human Behavior.
On average, Sherman and Bloom found that 61 percent of people studied were lactose intolerant, with a range of 2 percent in Denmark and 100 percent in Zambia. They also found that lactose intolerance decreases with increasing latitude and increases with rising temperature, and especially with the difficulty in maintaining dairy herds safely and economically.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/06/lactose-intolerance-linked-ancestral-struggles-climate-diseases
deanna says
This study is supporting my view that a 90% plant-based diet is the way to go, and they specifically stated it be vegetarian, no beef at all.
deanna says
Sorry, you can try but you just cannot
polish this turd.
The methane, nitrous oxide and eurtophication caused by grass-fed poop cannot be ignored or denied. In the scientific community it is well accepted, and, thus the vegetarian recommendation you pointed out.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I have given you several references that address the questions you raise. It does not appear you have read them. I will address your “poo” and methane issues when you explain why these “issues” have never been a problem for the vast herds of wild ruminants that have existed for millions of years. You might also want to do a little research on why cow manure is such a valued fertilizer, as compared the plant-waste compost. Here, in Western Washington, where it rains a lot, and we have an amazing number of ocean-connected waterways, and runoff contamination is a big issue, every County has a “manure exchange” program to encourage its usage by gardeners, community growers, and farmers that don’t have their own on-site livestock. The soil companies charge the highest rates for their ag mix that contains a large percentage of manure. I could give you many other examples, but you have just ignored them, and keep reiterating that it is a problem. Obviously, there are many private parties, government agencies, NGOs, academic institutions, sustainable ranches, etc., that are seeing the glass at least half full, even if you disagree with them. Obviously, my continued replies and citations are not working to encourage you to research the issues for yourself. “You can lead a horse (or cow) to water….”
deanna says
The manure exchange is great, but composting plants for human consumption serves the same purpose.
deanna says
I can easily explain why wild ruminants have never been a problem in history.
In history, the govt. never subsidized crops fed to stock, to make it a cheap food for the masses. At one time, meat was too expensive, and people could not afford to eat it regularly.
People never ate the huge amounts of DOMESTICATED ruminant meat and dairy products that Americans, Australians, and Europeans do today.
Predators, and natural, rather than AI , kept wild ruminant populations in balance.
When settlers started killing too many buffalo for their hides; they almost went extinct, no fear of this would happen with artificial insemination and domestication.
There was a natural respect to keep your food supply coming; unlike settlers, Native Americans were smart enough not to overhunt and overeat buffalo, and included many other calorie sources in the diet, so each year they would have enough buffalo to get them through winter, but leave enough alive to breed and continue the cycle.
Wild ruminants like deer, elk mountain goat, sheeps etc. have never been staples or large portions of the human diet in history, for all large, thriving populations.
For centuries, staples (largest percent of calories) of countries and various cultures around the globe have been starches: rice, cassava, taro, potatoes, corn/maize, wheat etc…
Besides cold climates, mostly European and Scandinavian countries, dairy has not traditionally been part of the diet, most Asians and Africans are not lactose persistant.
Our much larger human population today eats much more large ruminants and their byproducts on such a large, unprecedented scale.
deanna says
Cow manure is very intense, but also very acidic, which limits its use for some plants and soil use.
Compost works wonderfully on our valley farm CSA. Never seen greens and tomatoes so abundant!!
deanna says
Some ranches are more sustainable than others, for sure.
The evidence I see is that beans, tubers and grains for human consumption is the more eco-friendly choice, than grass fed beef, on many levels, and this is what the experts at Cornell found.
I did read your citations, and, of course you can always improve things a little, but the evidence truly supports eating more beans rather than beef for green house gases, land, water use and health of waterways.
deanna says
Annie, I appreciate your patience and the back and forth debate we have had. But we likely need to agree to disagree.
You said, people who say it can’t be done should step aside to those who are doing it.
Many said, reversing heart disease with diet and eating a 100% plant-based diet couldn’t be done long-term, but both myths have been shattered by Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. Ornish, doing both simultaneously with whole plant foods and no oils, (not just throwing animal products under the bus, here), reduced amounts of sodium and modest sugar intake.
So, I would say to those needing to take a stance that plant-based diets, vegan, vegetarian, veganish with fish or eggs etc. is not doable, ridiculous, unnatural, what have you, need to step aside and let those doing it successfully do it, without degradation, condescension, or shaming due to need for B-12 sup. and lower blood levels of DHA in studies. (However, I do think it wise to use this info. to improve the diet with inclusion of more ALA and EPA in seaweed or algal sups. available, if need be.)
The unfortunate fact is, 50% of Americans succumb to cardiovascular disease, many times decades before their natural health span and with many years of disability.
Every 80 seconds, a woman suffers a cardiovascular event, and 1 in 8 American women will have invasive breast cancer in their lifetime.
Don’t kill the messenger, but It is true that…
dairy is associated with increased risks (breast , ovarian and prostate cancer) and decreased survival in breast cancer patients. Butter has 11x the estrogen and 14x the progesterone in milk.
So, before attacking those minimizing and avoiding animal products, why not have an open mind to what they have to share and say?
I am very happy with my veganish diet, it has been sustainable for me for over a decade with vibrant health; I am lucky. And I feel very good about my diet in terms of carbon footprint, etc…
I am not creating the local lake algal blooms with butter, yogurt, cheese pizza and ice creams cones, from dairy poop run-off. It already has been suggested by papers to taper consumption to save the lake.
But, I appreciate other peoples’ choices, I have been a dairy and beef eater most of my life, so I have been there.
I just wish there could be a little more respect and more open minded thinking in some of the Paleo crowd for plant-based diets, and potential benefits of the environment, and health for those who choose this (even if it’s not for you).
WFPB and Paleo both forgo processed foods (oils, refined flours, excess sugar), so there is some common ground.
For everyone, whatever diet you choose, I wish you good health and happiness.
And, Annie I will continue to read about food choices and the environment, but for now I am going to leave the blog. As long as they post this last post of mine.
deanna says
I am glad you mentioned the lacto-ovo vegetarian environmental recommendation.
Previously, I mentioned my advocacy of 90-100% whole food plant based diet.
This environmental recommendation is in accordance with what I was suggesting.
People could add 1-10 % calories from an organic omega3 enhanced egg, non factory farmed, huevos rancheros with poached egg, or goat cheese on a salad, or yogurt, but if lactose intolerant soy yogurt or an oat milk kefir would be a better choice, and without the hormones in lacto (goat or dairy products). I also still stand by advocacy of a bit of wild game people may hunt that could be included in this 10%: wild rabbit, turkey or deer.
deanna says
I did read CK’s blog about grass-fed, but Diana was I believe, inaccurate and sometimes misleading in many of her claims.
Chris said B-12 and iron are common deficiencies, but they are just as common in heavy meat eaters as vegetarians and light meat eaters, mainly due to gastric atrophy in elderly who only eat meat and no supplemental B-12 (95% of B-12 deficiency in US happens in meat eaters . Iron deficiency (though sometimes genetic influences may play a role) is typically caused by heavy periods or aberrant bleeding This iron deficiency during pre menopause is not more common in vegetarians.
So his and Diana’s thoughts here do not support good reason to eat beef, not that it does not have other great things like zinc or concentrated protein. In all honesty, vegans and vegetarians, can occasionally cook in cast iron pans during their time of highest risk, premenopausal stage. Most postmenopausal women and men, not only rarely become anemic. It is shown this population is at high risk of iron overload associated with Alzheimers’ and atherosclerosis,
Water Claims in article:
A lot of grass fed dairy products are produded in CA, and dry parts of the West, similar to CA. Whether using grey, blue or green, it requires a lot of energy because it needs to pumped mostly from the thaw of the Sierra Nevada, to where it is needed. requiring a lot of energy (CO2 emissions) to use.
Pumping and irrigating dry Western ranches for cattle farmers requires energy to move the water, there, even if it is mostly retained rainwater or Mountain snow thaw from somewhere else.
Also, she said 410 gallons of blue water needed to produce beef. I’m sorry but, it is misleading only to give blue water use.
I have seen much higher numbers for beef and much lower numbers for plant foods. Is she also giving blue water numbers for rice. It appears she is not, so this is not an accurate comparison, and misleading.
Again, other water (grey, green) still has environmental impacts, if it has to be pumped and irrigated to the cows.
Meat production is 30% of America’s total water footprint.
But what I have read, it appears tofu, beans, oats, fruits, whole grain pasta, vegetables, and even rice (its never caused environmental water, eutrophication, GHG land use or water problems for centuries in China, and Asians are eating less, so why shouldn’t we eat more?) are good choices for reducing water footprint. But, it is true nuts do require a lot more water.
Manure and CO2 sequester:
Plants like beans, grains, fruit trees and vegetables also sequester CO2, but do not release the large amounts of the more damaging methane and nitrous oxide to our ozone layer, so this is nothing special about cow poop.
Cow poop and grazing with increasing demands and larger herds, actually can overly acidify the soil and unbalance the plants/forage ecosystem to other animals trying to coexist with the cattle.
Comparing beef farming to mono cropping used to feed grain fed animals, does not make grass-fed beef a better environmental choice than organic beans, vegetables, grains and fruits staples of a plant-based diets, with convetional and organic, rotation crop farming for plants for human consumption.
Her concerns about people eating more plants:
The US has plenty of valuable farmland, that can more than meet the demands of most Americans adopting a 90-100% plant-based diets. The 70% of farmland growing food for livestock, can be used similarly for raising plant foods for humans. So her comment about food storage, or chemicals for direct crop growth for human consumption, holds no water.
She displays two very misleading charts, showing money spent rather than actual amounts (calories or pounds eaten) and the global calories for meat. Americans, Australians, Canadians, Brazilians Europeans are making the most GHG impacts from meat eating, because we are more eating in many cases double and triple amount of reasonable share of the pie.
Meeting Protein/Caloric Needs for Plant-based diets:
A combination/balance of beans/legumes, fruit, whole grains, seeds and vegetables including more calorie rich starchy vegetables are not only nutritionally rich, including robust protein to meet, rather than double or triple recommended amounts, and calorically sustainable, but easy to grow on America’s farmland to meet demands of plant-based diets.
Her tips to improve GF beef farming…
It’s great that she mentions, increase non-grazing feeding, but in most of the climate areas in the US, this can never happen. Grass fed dairy is concentrated in many areas, with many months of grass/forage dormancy.
Rest the land tip is also great, but if all corn/grain fed cattle operations were shut down because everyone went to grass fed, this gets increasingly difficult (higher volumes) along with 100% grazing. Just not reality, not sustainable for the masses (if everyone at GF beef). I am not suggestion grain fed livestock- more beans, less beef.
Area of agreement!
I would also like to see America eating less sugar, high fructose corn syrup etc that she suggested but for animal based foods, for best nutrition and overall best for environment I would suggest…
Much less big fish (tuna and salmon), but replace with smaller fish: sardines, herring, possibly scallops- eat lower on the fish food chain, and include some Nori seaweed for prolific source of EPA in diet.
organic omega-3 enriched eggs, from humanely raised chickens
wild game: rabbits, duck, turkey and deer
for those not lactose intolerant or needing to steer clear of animal hormones: grass fed goat cheese
Rather than GF beef.
And include more eco-friendly plant foods:
Less almond milk, more organic oat and soy milks
Less nuts, but more seeds: flax, hemp, chia
Eating variety of organic beans for protein, b-vitamins, antioxidants, resistant starch etc..
Interestingly, the world is eating grain and in some areas starchy vegetables, as staples and outside of Western countries, they do not have the osteoporosis, heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimers and obesity rates we do. Don’t see whole grain as a problem, but rather paired with more beans and miconutrient rich greens, vegetables, maybe a little bit of lithe fish low on food chain and wild game, and less sugar, as a solution!!
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Just can’t let go, eh? What I find so amusing about “vegans and LF plant-based diet” advocates (since you are not a “true” vegan) is the complete lack of awareness of the hypocrisy. It’s OK for LFPB’ers to keep on and on, repeating the same mantra, ignoring the natural world, and they characterize themselves as “perspicacious”. But, if someone that supports a different dietary regime pushes back, then the push-backer is being “argumentative”, “flaunting her knowledge”, “obsessed”, etc. These characterizations say a lot more about the LFPB’ers and their vegan friends than about the supporters of a more moderate, evolutionary-based diet. Does the vegan/LFPB lifestyle attract such personalities? Or, is there something in that lifestyle — a deficiency, perhaps — that drives those folks toward that behavior? The old “chicken or egg” conundrum.
deanna says
Truly, I respect your tenacity and the strength of your convictions, Annie, even though our views are contrary. In fact, I think this is something we have in common.
I know that I personally have never used any of those words, you mentioned to describe you: argumentative, flaunting her knowledge or obsessed.
In my opinion, being in a debate and being a bit argumentative is part of the fun of visiting a blog, and I would rather woman let their intelligence shine than hide it. And, if I called you obsessed, I would be calling the kettle black.
Thought I was just having a spirited back and forth, respectful debate, and I was respectfully, though I know laboriously at times, making rebuttal to claims and citations you gave me.
You, Chris and Diana’s comments about GF beef, as being just as environmentally sound and sustainable as plant-sourced foods such as beans, grains and tubers, is not in agreement with my views. I don’t think you should be surprised I won’t just let it go, or because I won’t change my views that means I have any character flaws.
Perspicacious: shrewd, perseptive, discerning.
Though I do have character flaws, definitely prone to getting stuck into debates with people with very different views than my own as part of the list, I do feel I am persipacious or discerning.
I used to eat the healthy omnivore diet, meat and dairy with lots of veggies and whole fruits, no chips, soda, candy etc.. But I was still struggling with my weight and feeling sluggish, even though I exercised.
With much research about nutrition, at book store, online at the library (Have read a lot Paleo, Zone, Jillian Michaels, a little of everybody)
When reviewing it all, I found Dr. Esselstyn’s book, Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease, most compelling and scientific, and decided to give it a try, partly because my Dad and Grandpa had very clogged carotid arteries, and seeing my Grandpa suffer through a devastating stroke, was an incredibly painful experience for me.
Dr. Esselstyn’s plan worked for me. Because I do not have established heart disease, I am not quite as strict as his patient protocol, but I have found a balance that works for me.
Knowing something is not working, researching how to make it better, and then finding a solution that works, in my view, is discerning. This is what I did with my own health.
I know that I am confident and passionate about my position/views on nutrition and environment, but have remained here as long as I can, partly to work on my debate skills, but also to open my mind to what you and others have to say, and I have read everything, all the citations you have given.
Definitely, I do not think you have a character flaw, just because I have not changed your mind. Never expected that I would, but hopefully, I have made you think just a little bit about some of the things I have brought up, and maybe gained acceptance that what may not work or be desirable for me, may work for someone else.
I never once said to you, personally, that you needed to eat a different way or suggest that you have certain nutrient deficiencies you need to address.
Only gave what I thought is a great option for people, both nutritionally and environmentally; something that has worked for me.
Lastly, I honestly, do not believe I am ignoring the natural world as you said. My diet is very similar in plant sourced and animal sourced foods as the traditional Okinawans, Loma Lindan Adventist population, the PapauNew Guinea Highlanders, Central Africans, traditional rural Chinese (billions of people) and, really, is probably most like the Sardinians, because I often choose sardines, and I like to have my red wine on the weekend! Too bad it is Monday morning, ’cause I think I could use a glass right now. But will just sip the rest of my green tea and wish you well.
So I will agree to disagree and I will let you respond to this and have the last word.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Deanna, I did not want to leave the impression that I was accusing you of saying I was argumentative. That was said by another commenter that was not even involved in our conversations. I personally believe that such discussions as we have had are productive — they at least get us thinking about other viewpoints, and perhaps further researching information that supports both viewpoints, even if, ultimately, we just agree to disagree. They also make us realize that the entire field of human nutrition/food production is very complex, and that there are no black-and-white answers. Why that bothers uninvolved parties, I do not pretend to understand.
deanna says
I have and I have responded. The moderators are not posting my replies.
deanna says
I did read CK’s blog about grass-fed, but Diana was I believe, lacking accuracy and did not portray the realistic conditions of grass fed operations in cold climates, and was misleading at times. Let me explain.
Chris said B-12 and iron are common deficiencies, but they are actually more common in heavy US meat eaters as vegetarians, mainly due to gastric atrophy in elderly who only eat animal products with no supplemental B-12 (95% of B-12 deficiency in US happens in meat eaters). When a B-12 deficiency occurs, the doctor does not prescribe a not very well absorbed piece of meat, but a well-absorbed B-12 supplement, usually the type that dissolves on tongue that is directly absorbed in body without entering stomach.
Iron deficiency (though sometimes genetic influences may play a role) is typically caused by heavy menstrual periods or aberrant bleeding or sometimes, heavy junk food eating. This iron deficiency during pre menopause is not more common in vegetarians.
So his and Diana’s thoughts on iron and B-12 deficiencies, do not support eating beef.
Iron is in many environmental friendly plant foods. In all honesty, premenopausal women pairing eating fruit for dessert with legumes, vegetables, grains…. can increase iron absorption from plants X4, and can occasionally cook in cast iron pans during their time of highest risk, premenopausal stage. However, cast iron is absolutely not recommended for men and postmenopausal women. Most postmenopausal women and men, not only rarely become anemic (except for bleeding polyp or other bleeding); it is shown this population is at high risk of iron overload (storing too much heme-iron ingested) associated with Alzheimers’, diabetes and atherosclerosis.
Water Claims in article:
A lot of grass fed dairy products are produded in CA, and dry parts of the West, similar to CA. Whether using grey, blue or green, water it requires a lot of energy because it needs to pumped mostly from the thaw of the Sierra Nevada, to where it is needed, requiring a lot of energy
(CO2 emissions) to use.
Pumping and irrigating dry Western ranches for cattle farmers requires energy to move the water, even if it is mostly retained rainwater or mountain snow thaw, from somewhere else.
Also, she said 410 gallons of blue water needed to produce beef. I’m sorry but, it is misleading only to give blue water use.
I have seen much higher numbers for beef and much lower numbers for plant foods she listed. Is she also giving blue water numbers for rice? It appears she is not, so this is not an accurate comparison, and misleading.
Again, other water (grey, green) still has environmental impacts, particularly in the dry West states, where much of the ranching happens, it has to be pumped and irrigated to the cows. So I thought the blue water emphasis was not entirely accurate and misleading.
Meat production is 30% of America’s total water footprint.
By what I have read, it appears tofu, beans, oats, fruits, whole grain pasta, vegetables, and brown rice (its never caused environmental water, eutrophication, GHG land use or water problems for centuries in China, and Asians are eating less, so why shouldn’t we eat more?) are good choices for reducing water footprint.
But, it is true nuts do require a lot more water, which many times can easily tip your omega 6’s in wrong direction and put too much fat in diet, so best to eat sparingly anyway (if you do eat nuts, choose walnuts with better omega ratio).
Manure and CO2 sequester:
Plants crops: beans, grains, fruit trees and vegetables also sequester CO2, but do not release the large amounts of the more damaging methane and nitrous oxide to our ozone layer, so this CO2 sequester is nothing special about cow poop and is a drop in the bucket, compared to methane produced, in terms of impact to ozone layer.
Cow poop and grazing with increasing consumer demands and larger herds, can and does overly acidify the soil and unbalance the plants/forage ecosystem to other animals trying to coexist with the cattle, on some ranches; it is not as 100% rosy as she describes.
Comparing beef farming to mono cropping used to feed grain fed animals, does not make grass-fed beef a better environmental choice than organic and conventional farming of beans, vegetables, grains and fruits staples of with rotation and mixed crop farming for plants for human consumption. Her point only drives home the need not to allow or encourage mono cropping.
Adressing her concerns about people eating more plants:
The US has plenty of valuable farmland, that can more than meet the demands of most Americans adopting a 90-100% plant-based diets. The 70% of farmland growing food for livestock, can be used similarly for raising plant foods for humans. So her comment about food storage, or chemicals for direct crop growth for human consumption, holds no water.
She displays two very misleading charts, showing money spent rather than actual amounts (calories or pounds eaten) and the global calories for meat. Americans, Australians, Canadians, Brazilians, Europeans are making the most GHG impacts from meat eating, because these countries are eating in many cases double and triple amount of their reasonable share of the world pie of animal products.
Meeting Protein/Caloric Needs for Plant-based diets:
▪ A combination/balance of beans/legumes, fruit, whole grains, seeds,vegetables including more calorie rich starchy vegetables are not only nutritionally rich, including robust protein to meet, rather than double or triple recommended protein amounts, are calorically sustainable, but easy to grow on America’s farmland to meet demands of plant-based diets.
▪ Her tips to improve GF beef farming…
▪ It’s great that she mentions, increase non-grazing feeding, but in most of the climate areas in the US, this can never happen. Grass fed dairy is concentrated in many areas, with many months of grass/forage dormancy.
▪ Rest the land tip is also great, but if all corn/grain fed cattle operations were shut down because everyone went to grass fed, this gets increasingly difficult (higher volumes) along with goal of 100% grazing, much harder to do with higher volumes. Just not reality, not sustainable for the masses (if everyone ate GF beef). I am not suggesting grain fed livestock- rather more beans, less beef.
▪ Area of agreement!
▪ I would also like to see America eating less sugar, high fructose corn syrup etc that she suggested but for animal based foods, for best nutrition and overall best for environment I would suggest…
▪ Much less big fish (tuna and salmon), but replace with smaller fish: sardines, herring, possibly scallops- eat lower on the fish food chain, and include some Nori seaweed for prolific source of EPA in diet. And include more eco-friendly plant foods: Less almond milk, more organic oat and soy milks. Lot less nuts, but add some seeds: flax, hemp, chia. Eating variety of organic beans for protein, b-vitamins, antioxidants, resistant starch etc.. Interestingly, her chart shows the world is eating lots of grain and in some areas starchy vegetables, as staples. Outside of Western countries, they do not have the osteoporosis, heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimers and obesity rates we do. Don’t see whole grain as a problem, but rather paired with more beans and miconutrient rich greens, vegetables, fruits and less sugar and oils- a solution, both environmentally and nutritionally!!
deanna says
With respect, you have brought up…
that grassfed beef (meaning take away all grain fed cows and replace with grass fed cows) would be sustainable for the whole world, so me bringing up land use is an appropriate rebuttal.
You have brought up habitat loss and killing of other animals due to crop farming with fire, herbicides, pesticides and, I believe, farmers directly killing animals scavenging their plants. So land use and growing of forage crops (not grain), and iterating the large amount 60lbs. daily of forage, is an appropriate rebuttal; these same problems happen with forage crop farming. And forage crops are almost never grown without herbicides, pesticides and synthetic fertilizers (causing algal blooms, destroying lakes and pond ecosystems).
I have seen with my own two eyes the feeding of grass fed cows with dried forage crops (hay and wheat straw) and also, being fed grass, alfalfa and other forage growing in fields that formerly grew crops (corn, wheat, soybeans etc.. ), so it is not accurate to say grass fed beef is only grown on non arable, unfarmable land.
Any farmers’ coop in any town, will have dried forage (hay, wheat straw) for sale to grass-fed farmers needing it. And the farmers who are selling it, are rotating these crops, meaning on the years they do not grow hay or wheat straw for the grass-fed cows, they are growing soybeans, corn or other crops. This forage for grass fed cows is grown on farmable land!!!
So, my bringing up these points: land use, forage needs etc.. in comparison to crops grown directly for human consumption (organic beans, tubers, grains) are in direct rebuttal to claims you have made.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
So, because some of your neighbors are not farming/ranching sustainably, that means that people that are doing so, or that want to start doing it, should not be allowed to do so? And, folks that are producing hay, even though it’s been done for thousands of years, should stop because they are rotating crops on arable land (even if they are vegetable crops), and resting/enriching their soil? No one shall be allowed to let any arable land go fallow or produce a non-edible (to humans) crop. That does not seem logical, but, we could try one of go’s “thought experiments”, and we could play that game on any number of other activities, too. Several commenters have noted they tried vegan or vegetarian diets, and were unsuccessful. In some cases (by their own descriptions), it appears they were not doing all they could to achieve success. So, because they failed, even if that failure was their own doing, no one else should try such a diet, and the people that are following such a diet should stop. We could have a lot of fun applying this approach to lots of other activities, as well.
deanna says
This is not though experiments. The study you pointed out did not say eat grass fed beef. Their recommendation was a vegetarian diet with some eggs and dairy.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
As I said previously, this is getting ridiculous. You keep wanting to “refute” things I’ve never said. Yet, you fail to address what I HAVE said. You continue to insist that your neighbor’s feedlot operation is somehow relevant to sustainable ranching. You continue to insist that some activities, like winter feeding and manure removal, are absolute necessities for ruminants, but you fail to identify who did these activities for, say, the buffalo before they, the humans they fed, and the prairie ecosystem where they thrived were essentially exterminated to create marginal “cropland” that now requires massive inputs of chemical fertilizers, fossil water that cannot be replenished, and vast quantities of pesticides and herbicides. Nor do you address the huge GHG impact of producing the chemical fertilizers — more than a ton of CO2 per ton of fertilizer, which is usually produced from natural gas, with its attendant CH4 emissions. Of course, the fertilizer and pesticide runoff, the erosion of soil (the “buffalo commons” now = the dust bowl), and the groundwater contamination by past and present fertilizer and pesticide production can just be conveniently ignored. And, there, we’ll just glide by the false equivalence of equating a pound of veggie waste compost to a pound of manure, or a pound of processed soy with a pound of beef. I can see you have a hang-up with cows, and I can also see that you are determined to let nothing in the way of facts deter you from it. So, have fun demonizing cows! Don’t let me, other sustainable farmers, research scientists, NGOs, the UN or environmental protection agencies stop you. I find it is sad, but true, that sometimes the factory-farm folks are more reasonable in achieving progress toward sustainable agriculture than those that profess to be environmentalists or animal advocates.
deanna says
It is relevant.
They are doing the best they can with the climate they are in.
Grass fed cows cannot graze on frozen ground.
This requires growth of forage crops for feeding during the grass, alfalfa etc. dormancy in winter.
There happen to be a lot of dairies saturated in our area. They make a lot of cheese nearby. This saturation is causing the problem. They are farming based on high demands of consumers.
Americans eat a lot of cheese.
I am not sure what you what me to respond to that I have not already, but like I said the moderators have not posted many of my replies.
deanna says
Conventional crop farming with synthetic fertilizers and pesticides is far less than ideal, in comparison to organic crop farming, no doubt. But methane gas emissions are some of the most damaging and potent climate change factors.
I would encourage everyone to eat as much organic and do as much edible organic landscaping as they think they want to tackle: grapes, apple trees, planters of herbs, vegetables, berries etc.
deanna says
Causing more damage to the ozone layer, which GF beef does with the methane and nitrous oxide, not offset by CO2 sequestration, by what I have read, is not sustainable for our planet. I am sorry.
What I don’t understand is why you are so against someone like me eating and promoting organic beans, steel cut oats, greens, plant milks and other plant foods with sardines for my main source of protein, calcium and all the other nutrients needed, rather than GF beef and dairy?
This diet is both sustainable and kind to the ozone layer, and uses no synthetic fertilizers and pesticides? Why are you so angry about what the environmental scientists at Cornell and the UN would call a fabulous choice.
Headline: UN urges global move to meat and dairy-free diet
Excerpt: Agriculture, particularly meat and dairy products, accounts for 70% of global freshwater consumption, 38% of the total land use and 19% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions, says the report, which has been launched to coincide with UN World Environment day on Saturday.
Source: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I am not “against” you. I think you are misrepresenting, albeit based on sincere beliefs, other approaches to producing healthful, sustainable foods. I’ve already stated my views on the evolutionary/historical bases for ranching and farming, so I am not going to go through those again. As you said, let’s just agree to disagree. I think if we actually compared our diets, we’d find a lot of common ground, besides the sardines and red wine ;-).
deanna says
The only NGO’s that, I think, will try to stop me would likely only be:
The Dairy Council, Milk Marketing Board, and the Beef Council.
But I don’t think their interest would be to stop me from ruining the ozone layer and accelerating climate change.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Those are not really “NGOs”, but industry/trade groups. NGO generally refers to charitable nonprofits — Red Cross, Kiva, Heifer Project, FINCA, Doctors without Borders, etc., that perform social work projects that governments sometimes do. I am never surprised that industry trade groups push their own agendas (perhaps sometimes stretching the facts) — that’s what their members finance them to do. I think their ability to stop outspoken critics is more limited these days, since the court system has “slapped” them back when they try to use a SLAPP lawsuit to intimidate folks whose opinions they don’t like. It’s a different story when many of our government agencies (particularly the FDA and USDA) function as trade groups. The USDA especially, as it has a two-fold mission, the parts of which are inherently in conflict — to protect the consumer of agricultural products AND to promote the sale of US ag products. Then people wonder why there’s little progress in restricting practices like the wholesale dosing of food animals with antibiotics, or the widespread use of pesticides that kill off pollinators. These practices hurt people that are trying to follow a more healthful lifestyle, whether vegan, vegetarian, or omnivore. It’s too bad there is not more cooperation in addressing these issues across the spectrum of proponents of more healthful lifestyles.
deanna says
I never, ever said my neighbors were not using sustainable practices. In cold weather you have to feed forage crops!!!
The problem in our area is the huge demand for dairy, and the saturation of dairy farms in our area. There is just too much poop. They have, trust me, tried turning the poop into biomass and all kinds of things to try and solve the problem.
It is really sad. We have one of the most beautiful lakes, and it is being destroyed by cow poop run-off.
deanna says
I am suggesting a 90% whole based diet; I am not telling anyone they need to go vegan or vegetarian.
I myself am not vegan or vegetarian. But I am best described as veganish with only fish.
deanna says
We would not be letting arable land go fallow.
The goal would be to get Americans to not eat 6% of calories from whole plant foodsby hard working American farmers, but 90% of calories, and 10% from animal sourced foods.
The land opened up by less grass fed livestock and forage and grain crops to feed stock, would be used for the higher demand of organic beans, tubers, fruits, vegetables and whole grains. And not import all that sugar, chemicals and not real food that Americans are eating now.
Like Michael Pollan said,
Eat real food, not too much, mostly plants
deanna says
For all grass fed cows, in areas that have ground freeze (mostly Nov.-April), they need to be fed 60lbs. of forage crop daily. This is a big portion of the US. In the milder portions, that tend to be very dry, it requires huge amounts of water to irrigate forage crops and water the animals.
In the very cold months, their poop is hauled out of the barn with an electrical manure machine plopped on one side of the barn.
As this manure thaws in the spring, though some of it can be used on other crops, much of it seeps into the ground and into the underground water. It eventually makes its way to creeks, ponds and lakes, over or excessively fertilizing the algae, causing algal blooms and destruction of pond or lakes’ beauty and ecosystem, killing fish and other waterline and making it unsafe for people to swim there.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Might this be a problem with your computer or ISP, or a “technical difficulty”, rather than with the moderator? I get copies of all the comments, and all have had “reply” links. I have not noticed any undue delays in copying comments to subscribers, either. All of your recent ones have come into my inbox quickly.
deanna says
There has been one post, completely respectful, so should not be deleted, that did not get posted.
And, most of your comments do not show a reply button on my screen.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
All of your posts, and everyone else’s, show up in my inbox with a reply link. That’s why I asked if it might be possible that what you are seeing is a tech problem. Have you gotten in touch with Chris’s webmaster to see if there is something of that sort? I think most folks that come to Chris’s site learn from the back-and-forth discussions. I doubt that there is an active effort by any of his folks to stifle the give and take.
deanna says
Experiment, I will post it here and see if moderators do post it or not.
Annie, I appreciate your patience and the back and forth debate we have had.
But we likely need to agree to disagree. If you could give me a comparison of greenhouse, gases, land use and water for 4 oz. grass fed beef vs. organic beans for human consumption; this might help me to open my mind or persuade me to look differently grass fed beef vs. plant foods (beans, tubers…)
You said in earlier post, people who say it can’t be done should step aside to those who are doing it.
Many said, reversing heart disease with diet and eating a 100% plant-based diet couldn’t be done long-term, but both myths have been shattered by Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. Ornish, doing both simultaneously with whole plant foods and no oils, (not just throwing animal products under the bus), and reduced amounts of sodium and modest sugar intake. So, I would say to those needing to defensively take a stance that plant-based diets, vegan, vegetarian, veganish with fish or eggs etc. is not doable, ridiculous, unnatural, what have you, need to step aside and let those doing it successfully do it, without degradation, condescension, or unnecessary fear-mongering because of need for B-12 sup. and lower blood levels of DHA in studies. (However, I do think it wise to use this info. to improve the diet with inclusion of more ALA and EPA in seaweed, reducing omega 6 oils, adding algal sups. available, if need be.)
The unfortunate fact is, 50% of Americans succumb to cardiovascular disease, many times decades before their natural health span and with many years of disability.
Every 80 seconds, a woman suffers a cardiovascular event, and 1 in 8 American women will have invasive breast cancer in their lifetime.
Don’t kill the messenger here.. It is true that…
dairy is associated with increased risks (breast , ovarian and prostate cancer) and decreased survival in breast cancer patients. Butter has 11x the estrogen and 14x the progesterone in milk. The trend to put grassfed butter in coffee and eat with wild abandon is akin to taking a mini-hormone replacement pill for women, proven to increase risks of heart attack, strokes and breast cancer in women.
So, before trying to shame a plant-based eater on their need to take B-12, or eat Nori, with very little omega6 oils, and maybe take an algal supp., why not have an open mind to what they have to share and say?
I am very happy with my veganish diet, it has been sustainable for me for over a decade with vibrant health; I am lucky. And I feel very good about my diet in terms of carbon footprint, etc… In my local world, I am not creating the local lake algal blooms with butter, yogurt, cheese pizza and ice creams cones, from dairy poop run-off, that is really destroying the natural beauty we are blessed with.It is a huge problem where I live.
But, I do appreciate other peoples’ choices, and everyones body is different. I have been a dairy and beef eater most of my life, so I have been there. I just wish there could be a little more respect and a more open minded thinking in the some of the Paleo crowd for plant-based diets, and potential health benefits (for some- even if it’s not for you) and benefits of the environment, for those who choose this.
WFPB and Paleo both forgo processed foods (oils, refined flours, excess sugar), so there is some common ground. I feel I have been able to debate my views with accurate information in a respectful tone. And, again, I have appreciated your patience in our debate.
For everyone, whatever, you choose to eat, I wish you good health and happiness.
deanna says
Thank you for posting this. I do feel that you are being fair moderators by posting, this, though I don’t know why it took so long.
But thank you.
deanna says
Just sent two respectful, but maybe hit a nerve posts. One twelve hours ago, and one 10 minutes, ago with no reference study to look through and both are still in moderation.
But my other posts get posted within second?
deanna says
I am hoping you will not dismiss my very respectful post, I recently sent.
It will give me closure, and I will not feel the need to post anymore. Not sure why this post would take so long for moderation.
Don’t want to be a Paleo troll, but you did write an article about vegans and vegetarians that come up on our Google searchers.
deanna says
I will not badger you, Annie, after this post. I will agree to disagree with you on environmental impact of animal sourced grass-fed proteins vs. plant sourced (organic legumes and grains). This is more time consuming than getting sucked into political debates!
You said, people who say it can’t be done should step aside to those who are doing it.
Many said, reversing heart disease with diet and eating a 100% plant-based diet couldn’t be done long-term, but both myths have been shattered by Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. Ornish, doing both simultaneously with whole plant foods and no oils, (not just throwing animal products under the bus), and reduced amounts of sodium and modest sugar intake. So, I would say to those needing to defensively take a stance that plant-based diets, vegan, vegetarian, veganish with fish or eggs etc. is not doable, ridiculous, unnatural, what have you, need to step aside and let those doing it successfully do it, without degradation (WWWWAAAACCCCKKKOOOO s
Vegans are wackos- posted in reply to my giving info. on omega-6 fatty acids in dairy, chicken, eggs…), disrepectul banter and condescension.
The unfortunate fact is, 50% of Americans succumb to cardiovascular disease, many times decades before their natural health span and with many years of disability. Every 80 seconds, a woman suffers a cardiovascular event, and 1 in 8 American women will have invasive breast cancer in their lifetime. It is true that…
Dairy is associated with increased risks (breast , ovarian and prostate cancer) and decreased survival in breast cancer patients. Butter has 11x the estrogen and 14x the progesterone in milk. The trend to put grassfed butter in coffee and eat with wild abandon is akin to taking a mini-hormone replacement pill for women, proven to increase risks of heart attack, strokes and breast cancer in women. So, before attacking those minimizing and avoiding animal products, why not have an open mind to what they have to share and say?
Grass-fed or grain-fed cows, poop. Heightening the demand for beef, indisputably, puts more poop out there, and the problems that come with it
. I am very happy with my veganish diet, it has been sustainable for me for over a decade with vibrant health, I am lucky. And I feel very good about my diet in terms of carbon footprint, etc… I am not creating the local lake algal blooms with butter, yogurt, cheese pizza and ice creams cones, from dairy poop run-off. It is a huge problem where I live.
But, I appreciate other peoples’ choices, I have been a dairy and beef eater most of my life, so I have been there. I just wish there could be a little more respect and a more open minded thinking in the some of the Paleo crowd for plant-based diets, to the potential benefits to the environment and health (for some, even if it’s not for you).
WFPB and Paleo diets both forgo processed foods (oils, refined flours, excess sugar), so there is some common ground.
If I am passionate and outspoken about plant-based diets, and that makes me a wacko in someone’s eyes, I am more than ok with that, and I feel I have extended a factual and very respectful tone to my views.
I share my views, because I believe, this diet, for some with as much as 10% animal foods, can alleviate some of our greatest ills, both health of people and planet, not because I want to prove anyone else’s opinion wrong.
Whatever diet you choose, I wish you good health and happiness.
T Colin Campbell says
Deanna, this is a well-stated comment.
I would suggest one course correction, however. Namely, using V belief to defend your views on their health benefits is not in your best interests. According to the most recent and well done, relatively large survey of those diets when compared with a meat-centered diet clearly shows that mean dietary fat is virtually the same for all three, 30.0-30.9%, while mean dietary sugar is 22.6-22.9%. Dietary nutrient composition is the best predictor of food effects on human health. These data show therefore why the health benefits of the V diets are often only modest. This occurs because 90% of vegetarians still use dairy, often with some eggs and fish. Vegans, while choosing not to use animal-based foods for ethical reasons, does not mean that this conclusion applies to the scientific evidence. This is why vegans still get much too much heart disease and cancer and people on the whole food plant-based foods do not. And this is why critics of these V diets are getting away with their criticisms. Arguments for the health benefits of plant-based eating which are primarily based on ideological belief may do more harm than good.
deanna says
Thank you for the response.
I know, for me, two of the best things I ever did, was reading the China Study, and Dr. Esselstyn’s book, Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease.
Because, I do believe for me, it was not until I really squeezed the oil out of my diet that I gained the vibrant, unbelievable health and increased cardiorespiratory fitness, I enjoy today.
Another lifesaver, was Jeff Novick, who gave some great tricks on how to squeeze and dilute the extra sodium out as well, from foods seemingly healthy like salsa, condiments etc..
I am glad you reminded me, and everyone on this blog, that it is important to clarify the WFPB diet it is not just the limiting of meat products (as you see in vegan, and vegetarian diets), but also the oil, sugar and total low amounts of fat (including limiting vegetarian choices: coconut, dairy, eggs…) that make WFPB diet, such a health success!
E.S PIteau says
There’s nothing wrong with veganism when one takes the time to do it correctly in order to stay healthy. But most people with bad dietary habits could make reasonable changes that would be much easier than trying to throw themselves into a strict regiment like veganism. The majority of folk who are overweight and feel unhealthy could make great strides towards losing weight and improving their general health by simply cutting back on meal portions and after snacking outside the 3 daily meals.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Uh. oh. There you go, being logical again! What you are recommending is a version of the KISS principle. It seems people would rather contort themselves into vegan pretzels instead of trying this simple, no-cost (actually would save them money on grocery and medical bills) approach.
deanna says
For my plant-based friends, since the article is trying to “help” plant-based eaters, by making a case for meat and dairy, rather than informing how someone can get these potential shortfall nutrients in plant foods, fortified foods and supplements (just like dairy and meats are fortified and supplemented with vitamin D, and B-12):
Best zinc sources: pumpkin seeds, lentils (soak with little vinegar and water, drain and cook with fresh water), shitaake and crimini mushrooms, quinoa, garbanzo beans, mushroom, tofu, peas, oats, broccoli, sea vegetables, cocoa powderand to lesser extent chia and walnuts. These are great choices because they have zinc without too much omega-6 fats to keep your omega fats balanced near the ideal 1:1 ratio.
Making a daily habit of eating oats, quinoa and some pumpkin and chia seeds (maybe as cocoa pudding some days), a few walnuts and including mushrooms, lentils, tofu, bok choy and rest regularly works for most.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=115
For vitamin A, most plant-based eaters, for health, easily get daily multiple servings of leafy greens and orange root vegetables. Cooked kale, collard greens, carrots, as well as squash, sweet potato, paprika, cayenne, basil, parsley, thyme, marjoram, oregano, cantaloupe, pink grapefruit, chili peppers, peppers, broccoli are all on the menu. I don’t have a juicer, but once a week I treat myself, rather than Starbucks, to a carrot, ginger and parsley juice from my grocery store juice bar and spike it with a little orange juice or pomegranate juice. It is fabulous!
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=106
deanna says
First, many patients of Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. Dean Ornish are still alive, and thriving, 20-25 years after their cardiologist gave them a few months to live due to late stage cardiovascular disease. They accomplished this by adopting a vegan diet. These patients are not waaackos as described by Ms. Cambria. They have saved and improved the quality of their lives, giving their families much more time on Earth with them. It should also be mentioned that many of the male patients joked they owed Dr. Esselstyn an extra check, or, hey, something has come up… because their erectile dysfunction was reversed, as well. So let’s not disparage life-saving treatments, with caveat vegan diets need to be well planned.
Chris you said, I hope this article can serve as a resource for anyone on a plant-based diet, whether they choose to start eating meat (or animal products, in the case of vegans) again or not.
If you are a vegan, vegetarian, veganish/plant-based reading this article and comments, your best information sources are other long term vegan, vegetarian and plant-based gurus; Chris is an expert on Paleo and immersed in Paleo, not plant-based diets. Some expert dietitians and doctors, such as Dr. Greger, Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. McDougall, Dr. Klaper, Dr. Barnard and dietitians Brenda Davis and Ginny Messina, who wrote a wonderful resource, Becoming Vegan talks about how to plan a nutritionally strong vegan diet, supplemented with B-12 and some encourage an algal supplement, with physician approval. And the others have websites, check out nutrition facts.org. by Dr. Greger who also does recommend algal supplement, for most. Also, Forks over Knives is a great website with recipes, etc.
Though it is necessary for vegans and vegetarians to take B-12 and, it’s encouraged to eat plenty of soaked chia and some flax with a well-balanced plan eliminating Omega-6 oils, as well as encouraged by some to take algal supplement (but can cause bleeding, easy bruising etc. -not for everyone, contradicted with some meds and in some people), B-12 is also recommended for omnivores, particualry over age 50. And, researchers have noted many omnivores have too high omega-6 to omega3 ratios not conducive to optimal health.
Omnivores are actually getting their B-12 through a supplement (though second hand) too. In our modern world, with chlorinated water etc.. farm production animals also require B-12 supplements so they can pass on B-12 to you. 95% of farm production animals require a supplement. Almost no one, including animals, in our modern world is getting B-12, naturally as they used to. Also, some products like eggs have very poor B-12 availably; eggs have only 9%. So no one should plan on getting enough B-12 from eggs.
And one correction: bok choy, collard greens, and kale have much higher absorption and bioavailability of calcium than dairy products. Excerpt from American Journal of Clinical Nutrition: In contrast with the poor absorption previously reported for spinach calcium, kale, a low-oxalate vegetable, exhibits excellent absorbability for its calcium.
Plant-based eaters get the same benefits of vitamin D from sunshine and fortified plants milks as omnivores do from sunshine and fortified dairy. Dairy is not a natural source of vitamin D. Fish and, to a less reliable and lesser degree, mushrooms have vitamin D, without fortification.
Also, because plant-based eaters are eating many vitamin C rich fruits and vegetables at their meals, and avoiding tea at mealtime, their absorption of iron is fabulous. They also include garlic frequently to boost both zinc and iron absorption. As a premenopausal 98% plant-based eater, my blood iron is always very robust.
Pumpkin seeds, oats and other seeds and whole grains add to the zinc requirement. But even an occasional bowl of Cheerios or a little in a trail mix will provide a zinc boost and a little preformed vitamin A, for those who want a little insurance policy, for these nutrients. Or, is already covered if someone chooses a multivitamin.
deborah ann cambria says
I stand by my observation that a lot of the comments on this board are wacho!
I did not, however, say a person cannot maintain a healthy vegan diet. I am sure a lot of people who are very unhealthy can change their tragectory with a vegan or vegetarian diet. The more unhealthy a person is the better they will get when they remove toxins from their diet.
I do not feel that eating healthy meats, fish, eggs, cheese and raw organic dairy is unhealthy wtih lots of fruit and vegetables. It is a person’s choice.
I also think some animal products is more healthy than none.
The reason why I call people wackos is because they refuse to accept that something other than what they believe is true or just as good or even otherwise appropriate.
deanna says
I truly appreciate the response. But I think you have to be careful to not overgeneralize. When you say vegans are wacko. You are saying all vegans are wacko, and that includes people under Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. Ornish’s care, their family members supporting them, and tons of other wonderful, intelligent, kind, environmentally conscious, and just plain incredible people.
There is already too much vegan prejudice. It would just be nice if people would be careful, not meeting one vegan, they don’t like or don’t think is “not psychologically normal” and lump all vegans this way. Just in the same way they would not overgeneralize or discriminate against someone by race, gender or sexual preference.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
“Too much vegan prejudice”…Really? And what is it when vegans call omnivores “blood-mouthed carnivores”? When they say that non-vegans are not so ethically advanced as they? When they assert that omnivores are just “too cowardly” to kill their own animal food (Besides not knowing who does and does not butcher their own food, this shows that vegans — at least the one that made the comment — are too hypocritical to acknowledge the environmental degradation that crop farming causes, the agonizing deaths of wildlife whose habitat has been destroyed for crop farming or who have been poisoned by the pesticides used in same). There is an old saw, “People that live in glass houses should not throw stones”. Perhaps if vegans refrained from so doing, they’d find a lot less “vegan prejudice”.
deborah cambria says
Of course not all vegans are wacko. I didn’t say that. I said the ones that are calling meat eaters names and have a very narrow minded view of anyone who doesn’t agree with them. Again, the patients on the vegan diets that are having miraculous turnarounds in regards to good health are probably people who were very unhealthy to begin with and that needs to be stated. If you like a vegan diet and you are healthy that is great but there are many people who are not healthy on a vegan diet and many who eat animal products that can prove it is better for them and for the environment (not all of them I know) ….the wackos are the ones who just can’t see past there spinach.
go says
>there are many people who are not healthy on a vegan diet
because they don’t know what they’re doing.
>and many who eat animal products that can prove it is better for them and for the environment (not all of them I know)
rubbish
deanna says
As a plant-based eater, veganish with bit of fish, and a former dairy, egg and beef, poultry, pork eater, I do think both sides of the aisle should be as incredibly kind and respectful, as they can be.
Some vegans who are very passionate about animal welfare, and have received untruthful and mean comments about a vegan diet, sometimes get too aggressive, taking out anger from former discrimination on others at times, but this is not ok, I won’t sugar coat that. It can, however, be very difficult to be the 1% going against the grain or convention.
One thing that might help someone understand why, when a vegan gets passionate, overly aggressive, perhaps, about eating farm animals, it is because he/she may view animals as and equal part of the human family. Most people would find eating pet dogs or cannabalism, very wrong and disturbing, I am guessing by talking to some vegans, this is similar to how many vegans for animal welfare reasons feel.
But, I also want to be clear, some vegans are doing it for health reasons, such as reversing heart disease diabetes etc. and others for environmental reasons or a combination of all three.
Many of Dr. Esslestyn’s patients, only people in world reversing their heart disease, were not what most would consider bad,unhealthy eaters, just typical Western diets with meat, dairy, eggs and occasional desserts like pies etc., not fast food eaters, with burgers, fries, soft drinks, candy and chips. Similar to what people as way back as 1940s, when heart disease was and still is our #1 killer.
Not trying to argue, here, but just stating what I know and have read:
Most of the pesticides, farm land (topsoil loss) and crops grown in America are from feeding farm animals, not direct human consumption (70% of grain stock goes to feed farm production animals, not humans). It takes 12 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef and 35 pounds of topsoil to make that 1 lb. of beef.
A quarter pounder then takes 3 pounds of grain, over 8 pounds of topsoil, and about 800 gallons of water, and creates lots of greenhouse gas from cow methane, processing, transportation, and refrigeration of product.
A cup of cooked organic rice and beans, replacing quarter pounder in diet, is only a
few ounces dried grain vs. 3 pounds. The beans actually fix the soil with nitrogen and, do not require fertilizer, greatly reducing fertilizer runoff ruining our lakes with algal blooms (eutrophication) that kill fish and disturb marine ecosystems.
Because the beans and rice for human consumption are many times, organic, no pesticides or herbicides are used.
Farm production animals are not fed organic grains, and only 5% of American farm production animals and by products (cheese, dairy, eggs) are grass-fed, rather than grain fed. 95% of what Americans are eating are animals fed grain that is mostly GMO corn and soybeans and treated with pesticides and herbicides.
You many want to try this experiment, go vegan for a couple days before the next event or party, with a lot of people you don’t know, say no thanks on the cheese or dairy item and casually say it looks delicious but, you have gone vegan, without saying anything about animal welfare, health, environment etc.. and you might be surprised at the intense, negative reactions and comments you get. You will likely feel humiliated and shameful, though you have done nothing wrong.
I agree any category of diet can be unhealthy: vegan, vegetarian, Western diet etc..
But, in my opinion, a 90-100% whole food plant based, meaning 0-10% comes from animal products, is what current research shows has the best health span, least disease and disability and greatest longevity, and these diets’ include 1-10% of animal products that are mostly fish, small mammals or poultry, raised in backyard, and not beef. These animals are raised without growth hormones, antibiotics, and pesticide and herbicide treated grains, which is what 95% of the animal products available to Americans in grocery stores and restaurants.
Though some Americans are able to hunt deer, catch their own fish, and buy grass fed organic products exclusively (though these animals still typically receive some grains, not required to be 100% grass fed to be labeled this way), this is a very small minority.
go says
>And what is it when vegans call omnivores “blood-mouthed carnivores”?
there’s actually blood in the food that many eat . you have a problem with the truth?
>When they say that non-vegans are not so ethically advanced as they?
more truth
>When they assert that omnivores are just “too cowardly” to kill their own animal food
most are. those that are not manage to suppress natural feelings.
>the environmental degradation that crop farming causes, the agonizing deaths of wildlife whose habitat has been destroyed for crop farming or who have been poisoned by the pesticides used in same).
the above is acknowledged by many and is easy to minimize. you do a lot of generalizing. and the above does not justify the current eating practices.
ooh, vegans step on ants! hypocrites!
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I don’t actually have a “problem” with your ignorant misinformation, myth-making and the silly lack of scientific basis for your rant. I just find it amusing that you preen on your “ethical” pedestal while engaging in rank hypocrisy. To start with, there is very little blood remaining in meat, even red mammal meat. Do a little fact checking. And the hysterical, over-the-top idiocy that eating meat makes an omnivore a carnivore has been thoroughly debunked. I suppose my eating plant foods makes me a “juice-mouthed herbivore” as well. Eating meat does not make an omnivore a carnivore; eating plants does not make an omnivore an herbivore. Just. not. factual. Vegans are not ethically more advanced. Many of them are hypocrites of the worst kind, employing emotional drivel to make themselves feel superior because they know their dogma has no factual basis, particularly the dishonesty about “no animal suffering”. Such dishonesty is the antithesis of ethical behavior. “Most are…” – more baseless drivel. Have you interviewed “most” omnivores? You are making sweeping generalizations with no corroborating evidence, just to justify your dishonest stance. And the vegan comments on this site do not acknowledge the environmental degradation caused by crop farming. What I have said is not “generalizations”. These impacts on the environment have occurred and are still occurring in SE Asia in connection with palm oil plantations, in the American Midwest in connection with the loss of over 90% of our prairie ecosystem, in South America, where non-arable land is cleared for crop framing and in many other locations. If you want, I can give you a list of numerous citations for these examples, as well as for many others. Citations from science-based organizations that have investigated and analyzed them. Not just “most of x do y” myths, but documented examples. And then, of course, there is the abysmal arrogance of the dogmatic vegans that reject 2.5 million years of human evolution to proclaim the “one, true faith”. Get real. Get science. I suspect the blindness to facts and the lack of self awareness of some vegans are related to some of the dietary deficiencies they are experiencing.
deanna says
You say grass fed beef farming is sustainable for the world, but all the scientific evidence I have seen is to the contrary.
Here are just a few of the numerous links:
http://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/elist/eListRead/can_seven_billion_humans_go_paleo/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/vegetarian-or-omnivore-the-environmental-implications-of-diet/2014/03/10/648fdbe8-a495-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html
Excerpt:
Examining almost 50 years’ worth of data from the world’s 100 most populous countries, University of Minnesota Professor of Ecology G. David Tilman and graduate student Michael Clark illustrate how current diet trends are contributing to ever-rising agricultural greenhouse gas emissions and habitat degradation.
On top of that, they write: “These dietary shifts are greatly increasing the incidence of Type 2 diabetes, coronary heart disease and other chronic non-communicable diseases that lower global life expectancies.”
In the study, published in the November 12 online edition of Nature, the researchers found that as incomes increased between 1961 and 2009 people began consuming more meat protein, “empty calories” and total calories per person. (“Empty calories” — sugar, fat, oils and alcohol — now account for almost 40 percent of food purchased in the world’s 15 wealthiest countries, according to the research.)
When the researchers combined the trends with forecasts of population growth and income growth for the coming decades, they were able to project that diets in 2050 will contain fewer servings of fruits and vegetables, about 60 percent more empty calories and 25 to 50 percent more pork, poultry, beef, dairy and eggs. These are changes that are known to increase the prevalence of type II diabetes, coronary heart disease and some cancers.
Using life-cycle analyses of various food production systems, the study also calculated that, if current trends prevail, these 2050 diets would also lead to an 80 percent increase in global greenhouse gas emissions from food production as well as habitat destruction due to land clearing for agriculture around the world.
“We showed that the same dietary changes that can add about a decade to our lives can also prevent massive environmental damage,” said Tilman, a professor in UM’s College of Biological Sciences and resident fellow at the Institute on the Environment.
https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/new-research-says-plant-based-diet-best-for-planet-and-people
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/blogs/panther-lounge/2013/09/beef-to-beans-understanding-the-impacts-of-our-protein-consumption/
Excerpt:
Did you know that beef eaters use 160 percent more land resources than people who eat a plant-based diet? Here’s why:
It’s estimated that between 2006 and 2050 the world population will increase 35 percent. That will push the number of humans on the planet to over 9 billion. After 2050, the general consensus had been that the world population would stabilize, but recent studies are now saying that’s not the case. Instead of global populations slowing down, we’re expected to keep growing to an anticipated 11 billion by 2100.
That’s a pretty huge number to imagine squeezed onto the planet, especially when you consider how much land livestock take up. Of the land that isn’t currently covered by ice, livestock take up 26 percent of it with another 4 percent dedicated solely to growing livestock feed. That’s 30 percent of potentially habitable land worldwide dedicated solely to animal agriculture!
The big winner of the bunch was soybeans at 263 pounds of usable protein per acre. That’s over 7 times more protein per acre than meat! If we focused more on producing plant proteins for human consumption, we could do a far more efficient job in a smaller amount of space.
One acre of land yields:
50,000 punds of tomatoes
53,000 pound of potatoes
30,000 pounds of carrots and..
250 pounds of beef
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/eat-for-the-planet-meat-and-the-environment/
AnnieLaurie Burke says
This is getting a bit tiresome. I have posted citations, I have pointed out how herds of grass-feeding mammals have thrived for millions of years on their own, etc. There is an old saying that people that say something can’t be done should get out of the way of people that are doing it. Rather than point out, again, how your contentions are based on your own assumptions, which are biased by your own worldview; that, as someone that farms several acres with organic methods, I find the figures on tomatoes and carrots suspect; present evidence that there are enormous drawbacks to soy as a major protein source; or dispute each of your current citations, I am just going to refer you to Chris Kresser’s new podcast on sustainable ranching: https://chriskresser.com/impacts-and-ethics-of-eating-meat-with-diana-rodgers/
deanna says
With all due respect, Annie, you are not the only farmer with experiential knowledge, here.
And, I am backing up my experiential knowledge from well respected scientists, who are not vegan or vegetarians, themselves, no bias., here.
I understand, no matter how much evidence I give, in a number of ways, it will not convince you beef takes more land, water and creates more overall damage to environment than organic vegetables, beans and grains; however, I believe the other readers on this blog deserve to hear both sides of the argument.
I recentlly, grew sweet potatoes in small planters at my kids’ school. 32 square feet of land, soil free from city compost. We were able to donate 45 lbs. of sweet potatoes to the local food pantry for families in need. This is a whole lot of nutrition and calories in a teeny bit of space and very low maintenance, crop, no herbicides, pesticides etc… Just a little watering by kids at recess.
I am not just talking the talk, I am walking the walk.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
This conversation is either getting really silly, or you are having fun trying to pull my leg. Now you tell me you are concerned that no matter how much evidence you provide, you won’t convince me that factory farming of beef is worse for the environment than growing organic veggies. Really??? I’m a retired environmental scientist. Spent my career looking at these things. Getting ready to go back to school and get my PhD in sustainability science. I farm organically. Veggies. That’s what I grow. Remember when we started this conversation (that’s now gone into goofy territory) that I said how abominable factory farming of meat AND veggies is? That the factory farming system is obsolete, unsustainable and will eventually do itself in? That I said it was a logical fallacy (straw man error) to compare factory-farmed beef to organically-raised veggies? And now you think that I think raising veggies organically has more environmental impact than factory farming of beef??? Maybe you really do need a little extra preformed DHA in your diet. Try scrolling up and re-reading….
Goo says
Ah there it is, the old “you need preformed dha “, what took you so long.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Ah, there’s the biological frugivore “guy on the Internet” that thinks a vegan YouTube video is logic and science. See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17546621
go says
1. you would be better served to be more professional, considering your background. a youtube video of course does not constitute science, the content of said video does, with references to pubmed and ideas presented.
2. as i have said, and you have failed to refute, other than parroting me, is that we are omnivorous only via cooking, with few exceptions such as eggs. in addition it would seem that babies and children know more about proper diet than learned scientists, seeing as they gravitate towards fruit and veg when not being prodded by adults into eating seasoned and otherwise revolting foodstuffs.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I certainly don’t accept you as a judge of professionalism — you might arrive at better conclusions if you’d lighten up a bit. I didn’t need to personally refute your nonfactual bunk about cooking — as I noted previously, checking any basic evolutionary biology text shows that for the wild speculation it is. And any basic survey of world cultures will reveal that people routinely eat animal protein in its raw state — yes, even eggs. We are getting into the season when eggnog is popular. Your evidence that infants and babies go for fruits and vegetables? It’s a common complaint of parents that their kids don’t like veggies — you can actually google that. There are thousands of articles suggesting how parents can sneak those dreaded veggies into the diets of their little ones. Many kids tend toward candy — will that be your next idea, that gummy bears are the natural food of humans? Are we biological gummivores?
go says
>I certainly don’t accept you as a judge of professionalism
I never said you should
> I didn’t need to personally refute your nonfactual bunk about cooking — as I noted previously, checking any basic evolutionary biology text shows that for the wild speculation it is.
I have no idea what you’re going on about. our ancestors and extant apes eat/ate raw foods. we did quite well apparently. of course we then acquired fire and weapons and that changed the game. however the negative aspects of cooking and processing and animal foods are not acknowledged by those promoting said foods. changes occur to the macro and micronutrients, causing ill health. all the other millions of species do just fine on raw foods suitable to their physiology. cooking causes us to eat things we should not be eating and those things cause ill health. certainly we killed and cooked and that served us in environs where insufficient plant matter available but at a price. today with transportation , everything considered, we would be healthier both us and the planet if we increased plant foods and decreased animal foods. the only valid reasons for some animal foods is from the self sufficiency standpoint when it can be difficult to grow sufficient caloric dense foods. otherwise the typical nutrient concerns are merely weak justifications for one’s desire to eat animals. these justifications have been amply refuted by reputable organizations. one cannot talk about the alleged fringe needs of a hypothetical people with alleged problems going vegan to justify general prescriptions.
> And any basic survey of world cultures will reveal that people routinely eat animal protein in its raw state — yes, even eggs.
you are reverting to silly justifications. I have already noted that eggs would be one of the only animal foods efficiently harvested without weapons and cooking. and as I have also said, the phrase “animal protein” is a poor choice of words as an animal (or any other food) is not “protein”, it is a conglomeration of a multitude of nutrients. assigning some primacy to animals as “protein” sources is both false and distorting as plants contain sufficient protein, and no you do not need to food combine beans and rice to do so.
>We are getting into the season when eggnog is popular. Your evidence that infants and babies go for fruits and vegetables? It’s a common complaint of parents that their kids don’t like veggies — you can actually google that. There are thousands of articles suggesting how parents can sneak those dreaded veggies into the diets of their little ones.
true, and that is why extant apes primary foods are Fruits with some young greens and celery etc. I agree that most veggies (they are man made hybrids to an extent anyway) are unpleasant.
>Many kids tend toward candy — will that be your next idea, that gummy bears are the natural food of humans? Are we biological gummivores?
the idea is that raw foods lead to optimal food choices . that is all. certainly your method and kresser’s method is better than most, but it should not be promoted at the expense of the truth in such things as certain nutrients being allegedly unavailable or veganism not being viable.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I’m gratified to see you are into recycling, even if it’s recycling the same baseless myths that got blasted to smithereens by several more science-based commenters a few weeks back. Got to wonder, though, how much GHG are generated by these overheated hot gases….
deanna says
As a plant-based eater, veganish with bait of fish, and a former dairy, egg and beef, poultry, pork eater, I do think both sides of the aisle should be as incredibly kind and respectful, as they can be.
Some vegans who are very passionate about animal welfare, and have received untruthful and mean comments about a vegan diet, sometimes get too aggressive, taking out anger from former discrimination on others at times, but really not ok, I won’t sugar coat that. It can, however, be very difficult to be the 1% going against the grain or convention.
One thing that might help someone understand why, when a vegan gets passionate, overly aggressive, perhaps, about eating farm animals, it is because he/she may view animals as and equal part of the human family. Most people would find eating pet dogs or cannabalism, very wrong and disturbing, I am guessing by talking to some vegans, this is similar to how many vegans for animal welfare reasons feel.
But, I also want to be clear, some vegans are doing it for health reasons, such as reversing heart disease diabetes etc. and others for environmental reasons or a combination of all three.
Many of Dr. Esslestyn’s patients, only people in world reversing their heart disease, were not what most would consider bad eaters, just typical Western diets with meat, dairy, eggs and occasional desserts like pies etc., not fast food eaters, with burgers, fries, soft drinks, candy and chips.
Not trying to argue, here, but just stating what I know and have read:
Most of the pesticides, farm land (topsoil loss) and crops grown in America are from feeding farm animals, not direct human consumption (70% of grain stock goes to feed farm production animals, not humans). It takes 12 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef and 35 pounds of topsoil to make that 1 lb. of beef.
A quarter pounder then takes 3 pounds of grain, over 8 pounds of topsoil, and about 800 gallons of water, and creates lots of greenhouse gas from cow methane, processing, transportation, and refrigeration of product.
A cup of cooked organic rice and beans, replacing quarter pounder in diet is only a
few ounces dried grain vs. 12 pounds. The beans actually fix the soil with nitrogen and, do not require fertilizer, greatly reducing fertilizer runoff ruining our lakes with algal blooms (eutrophication) that kill fish and marine ecosystems.
Because the beans and rice are organic, no pesticides or herbicides are used.
Farm production animals are not fed organic grains, and only 5% of American farm production animals and by products are grass-fed, rather than grain fed. 95% of what Americans are eating are animals fed grain that is mostly GMO corn and soybeans and treated with pesticides and herbicides.
You many want to try this experiment, go vegan for a couple days before the next event or party, with a lot of people you don’t know, say no thanks on the cheese or dairy item and casually say it looks delicious but, you have gone vegan, without saying anything about animal welfare, health, environment etc.. and you might be surprised at the intense, negative reactions and comments you get. You will likely feel humiliated and shameful though you have done nothing wrong.
I agree any category of diet can be unhealthy vegan, vegetarian, Western diet etc..
But, in my opinion, a 90-100% whole food plant based, meaning 0-10% comes from animal products is what current research shows has the best health span, least disease and disability and longevity, and these diets’ animal products are mostly from fish, small mammals or poultry, raised in backyard, and not beef. These animals are raised without growth hormones, antibiotics, and pesticide and herbicide treated grains, which is what 95% of the animal products available to Americans in grocery stores and restaurants.
Though some American are able to hunt deer, catch their own fish, and buy grass fed organic products exclusively (though these animals still typically receive some grains, not required to be 100% grass fed to be labeled this way), this is a very small minority.
Sources to back up my statements:
http://www.livescience.com/37102-vegetarians-live-longer.html
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat
http://www.earthsave.org/environment.htm
deanna says
As a plant-based eater, veganish with bit of fish, and a former dairy, egg and beef, poultry, pork eater, I do think both sides of the aisle should be as incredibly kind and respectful, as they can be.
Some vegans who are very passionate about animal welfare, and have received untruthful and mean comments about a vegan diet, sometimes get too aggressive, taking out anger from former discrimination on others at times, but really not ok, I won’t sugar coat that. It can, however, be very difficult to be the 1% going against the grain or convention.
One thing that might help someone understand why, when a vegan gets passionate, overly aggressive, perhaps, about eating farm animals, it is because he/she may view animals as and equal part of the human family. Most people would find eating pet dogs or cannabalism, very wrong and disturbing, I am guessing by talking to some vegans, this is similar to how many vegans for animal welfare reasons feel.
But, I also want to be clear, some vegans are doing it for health reasons, such as reversing heart disease diabetes etc. and others for environmental reasons or a combination of all three.
Many of Dr. Esslestyn’s patients, only people in world reversing their heart disease, were not what most would consider bad eaters, just typical Western diets with meat, dairy, eggs and occasional desserts like pies etc., not fast food eaters, with burgers, fries, soft drinks, candy and chips.
Not trying to argue, here, but just stating what I know and have read:
Most of the pesticides, farm land (topsoil loss) and crops grown in America are from feeding farm animals, not direct human consumption (70% of grain stock goes to feed farm production animals, not humans). It takes 12 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef and 35 pounds of topsoil to make that 1 lb. of beef.
A quarter pounder then takes 3 pounds of grain, over 8 pounds of topsoil, and about 800 gallons of water, and creates lots of greenhouse gas from cow methane, processing, transportation, and refrigeration of product.
A cup of cooked organic rice and beans, replacing quarter pounder in diet is only a
few ounces dried grain vs. 12 pounds. The beans actually fix the soil with nitrogen and, do not require fertilizer, greatly reducing fertilizer runoff ruining our lakes with algal blooms (eutrophication) that kill fish and marine ecosystems.
Because the beans and rice are organic, no pesticides or herbicides are used.
Farm production animals are not fed organic grains, and only 5% of American farm production animals and by products are grass-fed, rather than grain fed. 95% of what Americans are eating are animals fed grain that is mostly GMO corn and soybeans and treated with pesticides and herbicides.
You many want to try this experiment, go vegan for a couple days before the next event or party, with a lot of people you don’t know, say no thanks on the cheese or dairy item and casually say it looks delicious but, you have gone vegan, without saying anything about animal welfare, health, environment etc.. and you might be surprised at the intense, negative reactions and comments you get. You will likely feel humiliated and shameful though you have done nothing wrong.
I agree any category of diet can be unhealthy vegan, vegetarian, Western diet etc..
But, in my opinion, a 90-100% whole food plant based, meaning 0-10% comes from animal products is what current research shows has the best health span, least disease and disability and longevity, and these diets’ animal products are mostly from fish, small mammals or poultry, raised in backyard, and not beef. These animals are raised without growth hormones, antibiotics, and pesticide and herbicide treated grains, which is what 95% of the animal products available to Americans in grocery stores and restaurants.
Though some American are able to hunt deer, catch their own fish, and buy grass fed organic products exclusively (though these animals still typically receive some grains, not required to be 100% grass fed to be labeled this way), this is a very small minority.
Sources to back up my statements:
http://www.livescience.com/37102-vegetarians-live-longer.html
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat
http://www.earthsave.org/environment.htm
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Hear, hear on your advice for people following various dietary regimes to show respect and understanding for one another. It is the only way we can meet the challenges of seeing that all people have access to nutritious, adequate food. I don’t want to dash cold water on your eloquent post, but I would just point out that: 1) Factory-farmed plant foods kill animals, too, often in ways that are slower and more agonizing than butchering animals for food. Even if the humans that eat those crops don’t eat the animals, habitat destruction, pesticide poisoning, killing of wildlife to protect crops — all take their toll. 2) Plant-exclusive diets have not been the only ones to reverse CVD and related diseases; there are also “miracles” among those following a high-fat/low-cab regimen. 3) The amount of grain/topsoil used to produce a pound of edible animal flesh varies widely, depending on the assumptions one makes in doing the analysis. I personally discount any evaluation from a vegan-oriented website and any from industry, such as cattlemen’s associations. 4) Ideally, it should require NO quantity of grain to produce beef. Grains are not a natural food for ruminants. Sustainably-produced beef does not use grain feeding. Note that sustainable and organic are not necessarily equivalent methods. 5) It’s logically fallacious (straw-man defense) to compare the impacts of organic plant food production to the factory-farming of animal foods. That’s also known as “stacking the deck”. Please compare FF animal production to FF plant crop production, and sustainably-farmed plant crop production to sustainably-farmed animal food production to achieve a meaningful, valid comparison. 6) For every article claiming that vegan diets increase longevity and promote health, there is a peer-reviewed, science-based article showing that evolutionarily-appropriate omnivorous (human) diets do the same.
deborah cambria says
Thanks for the nice comment and also very professional. This article certainly hit a nerve with many and the responses that are well written and not offensive are very interesting. Really enjoyed this learning experience and just for the record I agree with Chris’s article all the way
deanna says
I mean this to be a very respectful question not a challenge.
I have heard claims that diets with meat and dairy have reversed heart disease, but have not seen any research or documentation, such as baseline and post angiograms, or research articles doing this. The only two doctors, I have seen scientific evidence of reversal, rather than just a slow down of progression, is Dr. Ornish and Dr. Esselstyn’s patients on the plant-based diet. Do you have any info. you can share on this? I would like to see what foods etc. they used in their treatment creating reversal.
Madeline says
Oh there are tons out there how fat instead might not be bad anymore:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3826507/
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/05/your-diet-and-heart-disease-rethinking-butter-beef-and-bacon/
http://www.foodandnutritionresearch.net/index.php/fnr/article/view/31694
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16652223
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1368980/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586572/
http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article/S0899-9007(14)00332-3/fulltext#bib94
Dr’s Onish doctor did not perform better than any other diets. In fact the Atkins diet fared better: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/205916
And if you need more proof, these are my test results after 8 months on a low carb diet that includes eggs, dairy and meat and fish: http://s259.photobucket.com/user/madcancer7/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20161102_004652.jpg.html
The key is to not overcomsume.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Madeline, you make an excellent, and often overlooked, point on overconsumption. Dr. Perlmutter, who also advocates a higher-fat, lower-carb diet, comments in his Grain Brain book that US caloric consumption has increased by something like 30% over the past few decades. I think this “super-size” trend is where some vegans get their stereotypes of omnivores as people that eat a pound of steak at a sitting. Many restaurants offer an 8- to 12-ounce steak as their “petite” version, which is ridiculous. For most animal protein sources, 4-6 ounces provide enough protein and the other nutrients in which animal tissue is dense. Of course, when it comes to a surfeit of calories, it’s hard to beat the excess of the USDA’s recommendation of 11 servings of grains per day.
deanna says
Hope you enjoy a back and forth, healthy debate. I was raised on a farm girl and have harvested a variety of crops, and also worked a summer in a meat packing house. It was a better paying job than most college students cold get.
I can tell you that though accidents with farm machinery can kill small mammals seeking to do their own harvest in the fields happen, just like unfortunate fates of road kill, b this is infrequent and, obviously, unintentional.
While I was just packing ribs off the assembly line, not on the kill floor, of the meat packing house, I did have to work occasionally with people who worked on the kill floor. This is one of the very worst jobs imaginable and it took a huge toll on these people psychologically.
Animals being killed accidentally while harvesting crops, is in no way similar to slaughterhouse kill floors. Not trying to gross people out, just give honest, upfront perspective.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
If you appreciate having a factual discussion, I hope you are not seriously suggesting that the occasional accidental killing of a small animal by machinery during harvesting is the extent of animal deaths from raising crops? Surely not. The loss of habitat is the gruesome killer of animals — by poisoning, by fire, by starvation, by purposeful elimination. But, people generally don’t see that. The slaughterhouses are much more visible and public. Please do a little research on what many conservation groups consider to be the biggest threats to wildlife, particularly endangered species, and habitat loss is right up there at the top. Even for those species where poaching is a big factor, so is habitat destruction. It is what’s driving many animals to extinction. I doubt domestic cattle are in any danger of extinction. While the slaughterhouses botch their killing sometimes, starvation has to be a more prolonged agony. And yes, I am very familiar with slaughterhouses, having lived in Dodge City, KS for 7 years within 2 miles of two of the largest ones in the US. Again, these are part of factory farming system, like the CAFOs and other elements of FF that cause environmental destruction. Having to deal with the all of the gruesomeness (and I don’t mean the killing of the cattle), up close and personal, is one of the main reasons I will not buy FF meat.
deanna says
In response, to animals killed by growing plants and factory farms vs. grass fed animals.
For me, our sweet potatoes and organic soybeans, tomatoes, greens, berries etc. (for freezing), as much as I can buy, come from a 20 year old, local organic farm in a valley in the Midwest surrounded by woods, with absolutely no interference with the wildlife that has coexisted for decades. The farmers put up some fences around some crops to keep rabbits out, just like backyard gardeners do.
Vegetables and legumes do not have to be factory farmed on excessively large farms, either, potentially creating habitat loss.
Many plant foods can be grown right in urban areas, vertical gardening on sides of buildings, rooftops, and hydroponically, right inside cafeterias, etc. or community gardens in green zones, parks, schools, etc.
Grass fed cows can and do cause habitat destruction. The run off of their poop into creeks, rivers and lakes creates a big disturbance in the ecosystem. If wild animals do not have a safe water supply they do not survive. In many parts of the world, habitat destruction is caused by grazing/grass fed livestock.
One of the first lessons, at about age 8 or 9, you learn on the farm just from observation, is that you can actually grow a huge portion of the family’s food supply-canned vegetables, berries, apples, legumes (peas green peas, and sweet and white potatoes on a about a 1/4- 1/2 acre of land. While numerous other acres are needed to feed the livestock, even when feeding grass or hay/silage and, no grains..
Vegetables, legumes berries and tubers require much less land (habitat) and water.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Now you are arguing that what YOU do to ensure your vegetable crops are not harming the environment is the norm. That’s simply not the case. Currently, most US animal AND plant foods are produced by environmentally-damaging factory farming (usually monocropping) methods. The discussion needs to start with this reality. You keep referring to “poop runoff” from grass-fed animals. Poop runoff is a problem caused by CAFOs, and the CAFO is an artifact of factory farming. The runoff occurs when there is no ground cover. Are you serious? Did the European settlers find the streams of midwest America polluted by runoff from the vast herds of buffaloon the plains? Did they find African waterways contaminated by the runoff from the herds of wildebeests and other hooved animals on the savannahs? ? Or do you think someone was cleaning up and collecting the manure from these grassland creatures? As I have noted before, the vegan arguments against sustainable animal husbandry tend toward a straw-man mish-mash that is just a comparison of factory-farming of animals to organic, sustainable farming of plant crops, which is not a credible comparison. Properly managed, sustainable animal production practices can actually improve soil fertility, minimize topsoil loss, and increase carbon sequestration — as occurred in natural grassland systems for millions of years. http://www.nature.com/news/agriculture-steps-to-sustainable-livestock-1.14796
http://asi.ucdavis.edu/programs/sarep/about/what-is-sustainable-agriculture
deanna says
Comparing sustainable legumes, fruits, tubers, and grains to “sustainable” grass fed dairy and meat in a common sense approach:
A grass-fed cow can weigh 10x an average sized woman 1,300 lbs. vs. 130lbs.
Grass is a very low calorie food. A 130lb human needs ~2,000 calories, eats about 4 pounds of food with an average food calorie density of 500 calories per pound.
The cow being ten times the size needs ~ ten times the calories, and only about 60% of animals’ weight produces meat for human consumption.
WFPBD eaters (eating 90-100% plant sourced foods) get calories mainly from starchy foods: beans, starchy vegetables, whole grains, but, also, fruits, likely 3 of the four pounds, the other pound from veggies and seeds, with seeds contributing much more calories but much less weight.
Grass fed cows likely don’t need only 10x pounds of food than we do (40lbs.) but much more because they eat low calorie grass, much less than 500 cal. per pound. This is a whole, whole lot of wet grass clippings, for just one day of eating!!! This is such an incredible amount, the govt. lets grass-fed cow farmers feed some grains, and human leftovers to their cows, and consider wheat straw forage as grass food.
Because these cows are given dry hay/forage most of the time the weight of daily food is less than 40lbs. because moisture is removed, but the point is- it is a whole lot of plant food and contains a lot of things other than grass.
Part of the grass-fed menu is wheat straw, which I take, means the stem of the wheat plant vs. the seeds/grain, but they are still eating wheat…
Meaning the same farming effects on environment of wheat crops for humans to make whole wheat flour (wheat seeds), also is used to feed grass-fed beef (wheat stem, called wheat straw), but in a much larger, more destructive habitat, pesticide and herbicide use scale because a 1,300 pound cow needs 10X as many calories as a 130lb. human.
Source:
http://beef.unl.edu/cattleproduction/forageconsumed-day
AnnieLaurie Burke says
(sigh!) I guess this is one of those “thought experiments” that doesn’t have to meet the minimum standards of a scientific experiment.
gooo says
“(sigh!) I guess this is one of those “thought experiments” that doesn’t have to meet the minimum standards of a scientific experiment.”
dismissive and condescending with someone who is trying to have a conversation with you. nice.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
A little hypersensitive, are we? No, not dismissive; merely an accurate observation on a set of allegations presented with no corroboration. Rather like your myth of the biological frugivore human.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
First, there is little evidence that scaling calories linearly by weight is accurate within a species, much less for species as diverse as cattle and humans. Your analysis of caloric needs has no scientific basis. For humans, legumes, fruits, tubers, and grains are also very low calorie foods. Ruminants do not digest grass in the same way humans digest plant foods. You are making assumptions and comparisons that are not biologically accurate. Do you have some peer-reviewed references to support your assumptions? Something that lays out the assumptions made and their basis? You seem unwilling to acknowledge that large numbers of ruminant animals flourish in the wild, and have for millions of years, sans any human supplementation with wheat stems or whatever. Sans any human removing their poo. Sans any evidence their existence does anything other than improve their respective ecosystems. Sans any evidence that their grazing lands could be converted effectively to growing crops for human consumption. Sans any evidence that any natural population of humans has ever existed for any significant period of time eating “legumes, fruits, tubers, and grains” without animal protein. Sans any evidence that there is currently widespread sustainable production of legumes, fruits, tubers, and grains. It is very frustrating to go through this non-rigorous, non-science-based discussion over and over, ad infinitum, with vegan advocates. When I point out some of these things, you just fall back on your nonfactual scaling of human and cow caloric needs.
Goo goo says
…For humans, legumes, fruits, tubers, and grains are also very low calorie foods
The above is not only false but has no reference or context.
Secondly you don’t even know what a food is.
Thirdly anyone who uses the phrase “animal protein” has no clue of nutrition.
Fourthly, talk of worldwide this or that is not only false in the way u are asserting it, it is not relevant to Primar y considerations.
Fifthly, all your other sciencey ramblings are irrelevant and ego driven.
Is you hair still red?
deanna says
As a plant-based eater, veganish with bit of fish, and a former dairy, egg and beef, poultry, pork eater, I do think both sides of the aisle should be as incredibly kind and respectful, as they can be.
Some vegans who are very passionate about animal welfare, and have received untruthful and mean comments about a vegan diet, sometimes get too aggressive, taking out anger from former discrimination on others at times, but really not ok, I won’t sugar coat that. It can, however, be very difficult to be the 1% going against the grain or convention.
One thing that might help someone understand why, when a vegan gets passionate, overly aggressive, perhaps, about eating farm animals; it may be because he/she may view animals as an equal part of the human family. Most people would find eating pet dogs or cannabalism, very wrong and disturbing, I am guessing by talking to some vegans, this is similar to how many vegans for animal welfare reasons feel. My daughter at 3 1/2 , after rooting for Wilbur on Charlotte’s Web, declared at the dinner table: “animals are my friends and, I don’t eat my friends”. Thought it would be a phase, not so. But has made us all a lot healthier.
But, I also want to be clear, some vegans are doing it for health reasons, such as reversing heart disease diabetes etc. and others for environmental reasons or a combination of all three.
Many of Dr. Esslestyn’s patients, only people in world reversing their heart disease, were not what most would consider bad eaters, just typical Western diets with meat, dairy, eggs and occasional desserts like pies, cupcake at birthdays, etc., not fast food eaters, daily soda drinkers, with burgers, fries, candy and chips.
Not trying to argue, here, but just stating what I know and have read:
Most of the pesticides, farm land (topsoil loss) and crops grown in America are from feeding farm animals, not direct human consumption (70% of grain stock goes to feed farm production animals, not humans). It takes 12 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef and 35 pounds of topsoil to make that 1 lb. of beef.
A quarter pounder then takes 3 pounds of grain, over 8 pounds of topsoil, and about 800 gallons of water, and creates lots of greenhouse gas from cow methane, processing, transportation, and refrigeration of product.
A cup of cooked organic rice and beans, replacing quarter pounder in diet is only a
few ounces dried grain vs. 12 pounds. The beans actually fix the soil with nitrogen and, do not require fertilizer, greatly reducing fertilizer runoff ruining our lakes with algal blooms (eutrophication) that kill fish and marine ecosystems.
Because the beans and rice are organic, no pesticides or herbicides are used.
Farm production animals are not fed organic grains, and only 5% of American farm production animals and by products are grass-fed, rather than grain fed. 95% of what Americans are eating are animals fed grain that is mostly GMO corn and soybeans and treated with pesticides and herbicides.
You many want to try this experiment, go vegan for a couple days before the next event or party, with a lot of people you don’t know, say no thanks on the cheese or dairy item and casually say it looks delicious but, you have gone vegan, without saying anything about animal welfare, health, environment etc.. and you might be surprised at the intense, negative reactions and comments you get. You will likely feel humiliated and shameful though you have done nothing wrong.
I agree any category of diet can be unhealthy vegan, vegetarian, Western diet etc..
But, in my opinion, a 90-100% whole food plant based, meaning 0-10% comes from animal products is what current research shows has the best health span, least disease and disability and longevity, and these diets’ animal products are mostly from fish, small mammals or poultry, raised in backyard, and not beef. These animals are raised without growth hormones, antibiotics, and pesticide and herbicide treated grains, which is what 95% of the animal products available to Americans in grocery stores and restaurants.
Though some American are able to hunt deer, catch their own fish, and buy grass fed organic products exclusively (though these animals still typically receive some grains, not required to be 100% grass fed to be labeled this way), this is a very small minority.
Will share some sources at next reply as it takes so long for moderators to go through it.
Ian says
Interesting comments but very inaccurate. I have seen this sort of calculation (water use and land comparison between various crops and animal production). I went back to first principles and calculated water consumption to address the nonsense about 800 gallons of water per quarter pounder. Being Australian these numbers are in metric:
Cattle drink about 50 litres of water per day. Assuming that the cattle are slaughtered at 2 years that would give 36500 litres of water consumed. At this time the cattle weigh approx 600 kg so clearly they have not retained all 36500 litres. Respiration and excretion in urine and faeces account for most of the water consumed (conservatively approximately 90%), which is returned to the environment. Our 36500 litres actually becomes a consumption of 3650 or 6 litres/kg of live weight or about 10 litres per kg of burger mince (assuming for the sake of this discussion that everything is minced). We need to factor in the use of water in the abattoir cycle etc. From experience this is about 5 megalitres/1000 head of which up to 80% is recycled. This is another 6 litres/kg of burger mince. I should add that these are overestimates and conservative in nature.
The reported water use figures of 800 gallons per quarter pounder come from some very questionable assumptions. They work only if the full water consumed in the growth cycle is thereafter excluded from the environment (somehow magically retained by the cattle – which would then weigh about 36.5 ton) and the abattoir uses only single pass water (i.e. no recycling) AND only a quarter pound of mince is obtained from each processed animal.
deanna says
Not trying to argue, here, but just stating what I know and have read:
Most of the pesticides, farm land (topsoil loss) and crops grown in America are from feeding farm animals, not direct human consumption (70% of grain stock goes to feed farm production animals, not humans). It takes 12 pounds of grain to produce 1 pound of beef and 35 pounds of topsoil to make that 1 lb. of beef.
A quarter pounder then takes 3 pounds of grain, over 8 pounds of topsoil, and about 800 gallons of water, and creates lots of greenhouse gas from cow methane, processing, transportation, and refrigeration of product.
A cup of cooked organic rice and beans, replacing quarter pounder in diet is only a
few ounces dried grain vs. 12 pounds. The beans actually fix the soil with nitrogen and, do not require fertilizer, greatly reducing fertilizer runoff ruining our lakes with algal blooms (eutrophication) that kill fish and marine ecosystems.
Because the beans and rice are organic, no pesticides or herbicides are used.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Vegans prefer to focus on the grains grown (by factory farming) to feed animals (raised by factory farming), as if all other plant foods (consumed by vegans) are raised organically and sustainably. That’s a straw-man argument in every respect. Factory farming is damaging to the environment — and that damage includes animal suffering — whether it’s producing grains for human OR animal consumption, OR animals for human consumption, OR plant foods for human consumption. Humans eat other plant foods besides grains; look at the problems with (to identify only two) fruit and nut farming in CA, and palm oil production and SE Asia. I have no problem with people following a vegan lifestyle if they choose, but it is hypocritical and dishonest to pretend that such a lifestyle is better for the planet, that it will do a better job of feeding the world’s population, that it does not result in animal suffering, and/or that it is the optimal diet for human health. Not one of those contentions is supported by facts. There have been several citations posted to analyses by vegan bloggers/advocates; YouTube videos by the “biological frugivorian” movement; vegans that generalize their own personal experiences to all of humanity (sometimes with medical diagnoses made long-distance without any knowledge of peoples’ age/gender, much less their actual health status); assertions that “it just is, and that’s that”, etc. Those are not science, and they are not facts. When an omnivore lists a citation to a study or analysis based on mathematical/scientific principles, invariably a militant vegan comes forward to say there is a hidden agenda, that studies all conflict, etc. We’d make actual progress in reducing the impact of human food production on the planet (and there ARE impacts, even from organic methods) and reducing animal suffering by working together to find better methods, rather than engaging in inconsequential, pseudointellectual vegan vs. omnivore tiffs.
deanna says
Just having a vegan diet doesn’t make it 100% eco-friendly.
But, the whole food plant based diet (WFPBD) that is gaining popularity, does focus on whole plant foods eaten seasonally and locally, things like palm oil or other refined plant foods would not be on the menu. But, I agree things like almond milk, would not be sustainable and the best environmental choice for the masses, but still less of footprint no eutrophication, or e.coli problems like dairy. Oat and soy milks are typically available organic and grown locally.
The trend for environmentally conscious omnivore and vegan, alike, is to join local community supported agriculture (CSA) which is a fancy way to say you buy directly from the farmer for a season or the year, or frequent farmer’s market visits.
Research does show that beans and lentils, as well as organic oats, are some of the best environmental choices for protein-least carbon footprint.
And, most on a whole food plant-based diet are eating 3 servings each of these, daily, 6 servings of vegetables and about 2-3 fruits, mostly seasonal: apples, pears, berries, grapes, citrus, but bananas shipped all times of year are also a part of it.
Flax is a huge staple- local and great environmental choice. Chia, great health wise, but not local for most. And though nuts take up a lot of water and fossil fuels for shipping etc.. this is actually not a huge part of the WFPB diet encouraged on Forks Over Knives etc.
deanna says
I did want to point out, respectfully, grass fed farming is not sustainable for the whole world, it is not just factory farms that is an environmental issue. It’s not just that grazing takes up a lot of land but…
If everyone ate the Western or Paleo diet, throughout the world, we would have major environmental issues, including huge increases in global warming gases. The poop run off and methane alone from grass fed cows for meat, butter and dairy to feed everyone in the world on this type of diet would create a crisis.
The poop run off would wreak havoc on lakes, rivers and even coastal ocean marine animals.
If we took that much land to feed the cows, some people would have to go hungry because you would be using up much, much more farmland to eat meat, cheese, milk etc. than for people to eat legumes and whole grains.
There is only so much land/topsoil and irrigation, in many instances, for grazing and crop production; there is not an infinite supply.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Actually, it IS sustainable for the whole world – that’s a scientist’s view, not a dreamer’s. We will have to change our eating habits to some degree, but that’s inevitable anyway. Remember, Nature sustainably “ranched” vast herds of ruminants across the globe for millions of years. And humans sustainably “ranched” food animals across the globe for thousands of years. We in the US are myopically attuned to our way of factory farming. The UN points out that the world’s food future depends on small, local farms; currently, the factory system uses 70% of the earth’s ag resources to produce 30% of its food. Small farmers use 30% of those resources to produce 70% of the world’s food. One does not need to be a mathematical genius to see which is more efficient. Even some of the large US university Ag departments, beholden as they are to US “Big Ag”, are starting to admit that sustainable farming is very scalable. It is factory farming that is not going to meet the world’s food needs, and that is not sustainable in the basic sense of that word. I’ll track down citations for you when I get a chance — kind of pressed for time right now — well piping problems here, so I have to tend to my personal water issues.
Agatha says
The (wrong) assumption is always that if we didn’t farm animals, we could use the land to grow food crops. But often animals can be and are farmed on unirigated areas many of which are unsuitable for food crops. They also don’t need to be fed grains or soy. Take for example goats – by far the most popular meat in the world, even if Americans might not eat it. They can live in quite arid and rocky areas that are completely unsuited for any sort of agricultural endevour. In fact, truly arable land that doesn’t constitutes only a fraction of the area we use for food production. Most requires a very involved and destructive process to actually make it arable, copious irrigation thereafter and repeated applications of fertilizers and pesticides and lots of it. Sure, if we were all to live Paleo lifestyle it wouldn’t be sustainable. But if we were all to live on plant foods only it wouldn’t be sustainable either. We’d have to expand the arable areas, which means environmental destruction, more fertilizers, more pesticides. And you’d have to expand it by a lot. Since we’d have no farm animals all the fertilizers would have to be petrol based, which is another problem.
As for Omega 6 – yes, industrial production of meat, fish, eggs etc. results in higher levels of Omega 6 in the finished product. However, if the animals are kept in natural conditions the levels of Omega 3 are higher. It’s because of what they are fed – grains and soy. Same applies to people: If you eat industrially raised meat and eggs you’ll end up with Omega 6 levels that are too high. But if you consume vegetable oils, certain nuts, processed foods (which many omnivores AND v***ans do) and plenty of grains you’ll end up the same.
No diet is perfect, but I’d say that a diet that is as close as possible to the one we’ve evolved on might be a better option than a diet that would be impossible to maintain (and stay healthy and thrive over generations) without the comforts and conveniences of modern life.
Note to those who might feel compelled to respond to this: Please, none of the nonsense about not doing it right etc.
Agatha says
Sorry, it should read:
In fact, truly arable land constitutes only a fraction of the area we use for food production.
deanna says
Wild herds of ruminants, such as mountain sheep, goats, cattle, elk, deer, antelope, in history were eaten mostly by carnivores, such as mountain and savannah lions, rather than primates like humans, chimps, orangutans or gorillas (who ate none- only animal sourced food being insects).
But having said this, I am a big supporter of deer hunting and, also support deer and elk farms, as a better (more eco-friendly) alternative to cattle.
I can tell you from personally raising and, observing neighbors raising cows/cattle that were grass fed, this requires much, much more land resources than legumes, vegetables, including tubers and local fruits such as apples, cherries and berries, which can be canned and frozen for out-of-season use.
With exception of south and west coast of US, hay/silage needs to be grown and harvested to feed the cattle during cold months when grass is dormant. Straw, a grain, is grown for the animals’ bedding. During fall, winter and early months of spring, in most parts of the US, grass-fed cows need to be fed the hay/silage until the grass returns in mid-spring. This takes many acres of land for a not so large group of cattle.
Also, the cattle quickly eat and tromp on the grass and must be rotated to keep a steady supply during the grazing season; this in itself, requires many acres of land.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Whether wild ruminants were eaten by carnivores, or little green men from Mars, does not change their role in the ecosystem. I never claimed that nonhuman primates ate ruminants, so I am not sure what your point is on that. However, our closest relatives (chimpanzees and bonobos) are indisputably omnivores — their preferred meat is that of monkeys. And yes, when modern humans evolved, they definitely hunted and ate wild ruminants. Hunting wild ruminants was an important part of human culture. It remained so even among early agriculturalists. Check out the extensively annotated study of Catalhoyuk, where, even though the farmers had other domesticated animals, hunting and eating wild cattle were a central element in their lives. See “The Leopard’s Tale: Revealing the Mysteries of Catalhoyuk” by archeologist Ian Hodder. In the America, such activities were likewise central to their lifeways, from the time the Americas were first settled.
During the free-range part of their lives, cattle get little supplementation with other feed, unless the weather conditions are extreme. Once the ranchers want to start the market prep phase of the cattle’s lives, yes, they herd them into more crowded spaces. If your neighbors that are raising “grass-fed cows” have them so crowded they are trampling the vegetation, then, I’m sorry, theirs is NOT a sustainable operation. In the US, ranchers can label their beef grass-fed, even if they finish the beef conventionally in a CAFO or feedlot.
Gooo says
Hunting, important part of human history. Drinking soda is an important part of culture. Therefore…. What?
You’re claiming we are obligate carnivores? Obligate omnivores?
Your logic is wanting.
I have not received your pet cat or dog yet. Why don’t you just cut them up and send to me. Is your corpus collosum severed is that how you cope with your hypocrisy?
deanna says
A couple responses:
I brought up lions rather than humans eating large amounts of ruminants because humans eating ruminants daily or in large amounts has never been part of the natural food chain. Even lions, carnivores, do not eat ruminant meat on a daily basis.
But reindeer has supplied a good calorie source in Scandanvia, and deer in woodlands of North America, but again, never eaten on a daily basis. On a health perspective, this wild ruminant meat is a fraction of the calories and fat than grass fed beef.
Until very recent history, cattle, even grass fed, has never ever been eaten on the grand scale that Americans eat beef today.
Human diets have varied widely, the Tarahumara and Papau New Highlanders are veganish, plant-based as well as traditional Okinawans from Japan 96-98% calories from plant sourced foods. The animal sourced foods in these diets are lean fish and small, lean game-think wild rabbits,very different than domesticated animals today, both grass and grain fed.
I am suggesting that a 90-100% plant sourced diet would be good for both people’s health and animals. This would mean eating a lot more vegetables and legumes, and 0-200 calories a day of animal sourced foods.
Some great choices could be: 2oz. sardine, herring a few days a week, a sprinkling of goat cheese another day, a poached organic omega-3 enhanced egg on top of black beans and rice, or a piece of wild turkey or venison in a soup/stew with lots of veggies.
If everyone chose this type of diet, climate scientists at Cornell and around the world agree many of our most costly and scary climate change problems could be resolved, but too much sardine and herring consumption could pause a problem, that if aquaponic advancements could solve would be wonderful!
deanna says
This is an article from American Journal of Clinical Nutrition on sustainability of plant vs. animal based diets.
I do like it when people can provide evidence for their viewpoint in a debate. But I do think it is common sense to agree 1,300 pound cows need more calories than 130lb. woman and that yes, grass is in fact , a low calorie food.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Yes, grass is a low-cal food. That’s why ruminants evolved to maximize the nutrition they derive from it. There are many wild species that thrive on what we humans would consider “low-cal food”. Even primates other than humans can digest some of the “low cal foods” that humans cannot metabolize. That’s why trying to scale nutritional needs from a human to a nonhuman is not a valid comparison.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
You are correct that man never ate ruminants, or any other animal, daily. There were natural populations whose primary prey source was ruminants. But these were not eaten everyday — it was a feast or famine (and often small amounts of dried/salted meat somewhat routinely) affair. Like nonhuman predators, human hunters are not successful 100% of the time. But you are not accurate in implying that human hunter-gatherers went for “lean meat”. Eating mainly lean tissue leads to deficiencies, and fat-phobia is an artifact of our modern, misguided ways. Indeed, like many nonhuman predators, human hunter-gatherers, early pastoralists, and even non-wealthy modern folk used all of the animal. Hunter-gatherers started with the fattiest parts — brain, other organs, bone marrow. Obesity was never a problem for them as it is for modern Americans. The latter eat too much food, period, plant or animal. And, sadly, our calorie intake has increased over the last few decades, although the largest increase has come from sugar and refined carbs, not meat. Not surprisingly, our meat animals suffer from being fed an unnatural diet of the same. Last year, Americans achieved the dubious distinction that their largest single calorie source was carbonated beverages (sodas). Animal fat is not the cause of our modern obesity epidemic. I doubt you’ll get much argument from health-conscious people following ANY dietary regime that the Standard American Diet (with the apt acronym “SAD”) should be a model for anyone. Not only does the American diet suck, but Americans have the highest rate of food wastage in the world. The UN estimates it’s over 40%. Even without going 95% vegan, we could make our food production far more healthful (for us and the animals) and planet friendly.
deanna says
You many want to try this experiment, go vegan for a couple days before the next event or party, with a lot of people you don’t know, say no thanks on the cheese or dairy item, and casually say it looks delicious but, you have gone vegan, without saying anything about animal welfare, health, environment etc.. You might be surprised at the intense, negative reactions and comments you get. You will likely feel humiliated and shameful though you have done nothing wrong.
I agree any category of diet can be unhealthy: vegan, vegetarian, Western diet etc..
But, in my opinion, a 90-100% whole food plant based, meaning 0-10% comes from animal products is what current research shows has the best health span, least disease and disability and longevity, and these diets’ animal products are mostly from fish, small mammals or poultry, raised in backyard, and not beef. These animals are raised without growth hormones, antibiotics, and pesticide and herbicide treated grains, which is what 95% of the animal products available to Americans in grocery stores and restaurants.
Though some American are able to hunt deer, catch their own fish, and buy grass fed organic products exclusively (though these animals still typically receive some grains, not required to be 100% grass fed to be labeled this way), this is a very small minority.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
An alternate experiment: Go to an event that is attended mainly by vegans, casually mention that you occasionally use sustainably-produced animal products (even honey and/or silk) and see how many times you are called insensitive, blood-mouthed carnivore, destroyer of your grandchildren’s legacy, etc. All this regardless if you have devoted your career to wildlife conservation or environmental protection, you are an organic farmer, you have chosen not to reproduce, etc. The animosity between omnivores and vegans is a classic example of “both sides do it”.
deanna says
I would agree that there needs to be a higher level of tolerance on both sides.
It is great to make a case/point, for the way of eating you find best for a variety of reasons, health, animal welfare, the environment et.. but just like in a political debate; it is done best with sensitivity to the other person’s right to their beliefs and views.
deanna says
This is in reply to your comment grass. I was not making a nutrition comparison.
My comparison was that a cow needs more crops and forage (calories) than ahuman, creating more energy intensive and toxins from crops/forage grown to feed a cow, which 40% weight is wasted/not eaten. Cows cannot magically extract more calories/energy from what is there.
This is a response to your UC Davis source:
Did read your source from UC Davis carefully, well respected research university.
Important points I got from their article:
Taken Directly from article:
Grazing livestock: “Prolonged concentration of stock that results in permanent loss of vegetative cover on uplands or in riparian zones should be avoided.”
This vegetative, ground cover loss, from grass-fed agriculture is an issue and creates detrimental top-soil loss. This is why Davis researchers are addressing it.
“waste management (poop) are key issues in confined livestock operations. The moral and ethical debate taking place today regarding animal welfare is particularly intense for confined livestock production systems. The issues raised in this debate need to be addressed.
Confinement livestock production is increasingly a source of surface and ground water pollutants, particularly where there are large numbers of animals per unit area. Expensive waste management facilities are now a necessary cost of confined production systems. Waste is a problem of almost all operations and must be managed with respect to both the environment and the quality of life in nearby communities. ”
These are not issues for growth of plant proteins, such as soy, black beans, lentils, oats, teff etc.
The poop is an issue due to the sheer number of cattle (both grass-fed and grain fed) cows make similar amounts of poop. So, if humans eat 20,30, 100, pounds of beef a year, even if it is grass-fed, this creates a lot of poop to meet demands of those wanting to eat beef. More demand – more poop, whether grass fed or not.
Their view ons sustainable agriculture:
They promote practices that are…
Least toxic and energy intensive
Buying organic beans and whole grains is easy to find and easy to do and less toxic, and much less energy intensive than livestock production.
Also organic beans and whole grains are not significantly more expensive than conventional legumes, easy for people to make this choice. Organic beans, lentils, oats are some of the cheapest foods in the store.
Methods to protect and enhance the productivity of the soil include using cover crops (soy,teff, beans and oats are considered cover crops), compost and/or manures, reducing tillage, avoiding traffic on wet soils, and maintaining soil cover with plants and/or mulches.
Cattle grazing creates a lot of traffic on wet soils, and soy, oats, etc.. are cover crops used to protect and enhance soil.
Another good resource, for sustainability, not promoting vegan or vegetarian diets, but breaking down what people can do, for anyone interested:
http://www.wri.org/blog/2016/04/sustainable-diets-what-you-need-know-12-charts
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Exactly. You are doing a great job of arguing my points on sustainable ranching. The quotes you extracted explain why, if your description of your neighbor’s “grass feeding” operation is accurate, it does not meet the definition of a sustainable operation.
deanna says
Sustainable ranching can only happen with reasonable amounts of demand.
Western and Paleo diets are shown by scientists to not be reasonable demands for the whole world.
If American only ate 20-50 pounds of animal sourced foods a year: beef, chicken,. eggs, pork, dairy. Sustainable ranching could maybe be done.
But this is not the trend; this is not the Western diet or variation of Western diet (take out sugar, grains and beans) called, Paleo.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
You are joshing me, right? You go on Chris Kresser’s blog — Kresser the Paleo guru — and imply that the Paleo diet is meat-centric? Seriously? Do you actually read his blogs? Did you read his Paleo Diet book? You do realize, don’t you, that the Paleo Diet is what modern humans evolved on, and what fed the world until the spread of agriculture was complete? That the modest amount of meat that is actually part of the Paleo Diet has to be wild-caught or grass-fed, or it isn’t “Paleo”? That Paleolithic Man did not raise livestock on factory farms? And what “scientists have shown” anything about the Paleo Diet? I’ve seen lots of articles by people that pan their own silly stereotype of the Paleo Diet, but don’t know the Paleo Diet from the Cordon Bleu Diet.
deanna says
Also, wanted to respond that legumes, tubers and whole grains are not low-calorie foods, much much higher than vegetables/grass.
Vegetables and grasses (about 100cal. pound) and fruits (300cal. pound). This is the range of calorie density for legumes, grains and tubers:
FOOD CALORIES PER POUND
Potatoes, pastas, brown rice, sweet potatoes, corn, hot cereals 280 to 650
Legumes: peas and beans, such as pinto, garbanzo, black, and lentil beans 400 to 750.
In addition, to the protein in legumes and whole grains, the calories in these foods, make plant-based diets (90-100%) nutritionally, calorically and environmentally sustainable.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I find it fascinating that you spend so much time “refuting” claims that you invented but that I never made. As I noted previously, the world is replete with species that thrive in great numbers on “low-calorie” foods. One of the primary “low-calorie” foods is grass. As I also noted, may species have a digestive system quite different from the human one, so scaling nutritional foods by weight (or other factors) is not accurate physiology.
deanna says
Again, You cannot create more energy (calories) from grass than is there, whether you have four stomachs or not. I am not claiming ruminants should eat anything other than grass/forage… The point is it takes more land, energy and creates undesirable environmental consequences to feed cows for meat and dairy products than…..
for humans to directly eat higher calorie (low land need) crops such as organic legumes, grain and tubers (sweet and white potatoes).
I have raised both types of foods. Cows take much more land, water and crops (wether grass or hay or wheat straw) than to grow our canned crops such as potatoes, tomatoes, beans, apples, berries, grapes.
Sorry, but you are not the only farmer here, with experiential and scientific knowledge.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Actually, you can create more (or get less) energy from a substance than its “calorie” content would indicate. It depends how you assess calories, and how an organism processes them. How well could you survive on crude oil? It intrinsically has a lot of “calories” (a calorie is merely a measure of energy), but, as humans go, it effectively has zero food calories. But there are organisms that can access those calories. Further, as I have noted (over and over again), you cannot scale calorie needs for humans to calorie needs for other creatures. And why do you insist on “refuting” statements I never made? That’s not logical. I never said that vegetable crops take more land or resources than beef or other livestock. Where did you imagine that? I also never said that I had more experience/knowledge than any other farmer. Anyone that farms knows there are a multitude of factors that can affect a crop. Even factory-ranch raised beef, raised by folks using the same breeds and inputs, will vary in productivity. You assert that raising livestock is detrimental to the environment, but that is not universally true. It is not true for sustainable ranching, just as it is not true for wild grass-eating animals. In fact, the opposite is true — just as the wild grass-eaters improve the land on which they graze, so do sustainably-raised-by-humans grass-eaters. Sustainably-raised livestock are fed on land that is not suitable for crops, with inputs (grass, rainfall, etc.) that are going to be present whether the livestock are there or not. These inputs on these lands are not going to contribute to crop farming. And you seem to forget, in asserting that it’s more efficient for humans to eat plants than meat, that, first, ideally, these uses don’t compete, as they use different land types. Second, one cannot base equivalence merely on calories and/or weight of food — nutrients and their bioavailability are important factors. And third, there has never been a natural vegan human population. 2.5 million years of omnivorous human evolution — i. e., Nature showing what works and what doesn’t — do not support your assertions.
deanna says
I should be more clear: Chris is very animal product heavy, since you must raise grass fed dairy cows to produce grass fed butter and cheese it still creates grass fed cows.
Amount of meat eating is very personally relative, for me..
meat/animal heavy means eating more than a couple ounces of wild game mammal meat to go with 3 oz. serving of fish per week with no dairy and eggs.
I think he is advocating for much, much more that 5-10% of calories from all animal sourced foods: dairy and meats, than I am.
deanna says
I will not badger you after this post. This is more time consuming than getting sucked into political debates!
You said, people who say it can’t be done should step aside to those who are doing it.
Many said, reversing heart disease with diet and eating a 100% plant-based diet couldn’t be done long-term, but both myths have been shattered by Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. Ornish, doing both simultaneously with whole plant foods and no oils, (not just throwing animal products under the bus), and reduced amounts of sodium and modest sugar intake.
So, I would say to those needing to defensively take a stance that plant-based diets, vegan, vegetarian, veganish with fish or eggs etc. is not doable, ridiculous, unnatural, what have you, need to step aside and let those doing it successfully do it, without degradation, condescension, or unnecessary fear-mongering because of need for B-12 sup. and lower blood levels of DHA in studies. (However, I do think it wise to use this info. to improve the diet with inclusion of more ALA and EPA in seaweed or sups. available, if need be.)
The unfortunate fact is, 50% of Americans succumb to cardiovascular disease, many times decades before their natural health span and with many years of disability.
Every 80 seconds, a woman suffers a cardiovascular event, and 1 in 8 American women will have invasive breast cancer in their lifetime.
It is true that…
dairy is associated with increased risks (breast , ovarian and prostate cancer) and decreased survival in breast cancer patients. Butter has 11x the estrogen and 14x the progesterone in milk. The trend to put grassfed butter in coffee and eat with wild abandon is akin to taking a mini-hormone replacement pill for women, proven to increase risks of heart attack, strokes and breast cancer in women.
So, before attacking those minimizing and avoiding animal products, why not have an open mind to what they have to share and say?
And lastly, grass-fed or grain-fed cows, poop. Heightening the demand for beef, indisputably, puts more poop out there, and the problems that come with it.
I am very happy with my veganish diet, it has been sustainable for me for over a decade with vibrant health, I am lucky. And I feel very good about my diet in terms of carbon footprint, etc… I am not creating the local lake algal blooms with butter, yogurt, cheese pizza and ice creams cones, from dairy poop run-off. It is a huge problem where I live.
But, I appreciate other peoples’ choices, I have been a dairy and beef eater most of my life, so I have been there. I just wish there could be a little more respect and a more open minded thinking in the some of the Paleo crowd for plant-based diets, and potential benefits of the environment, for those who choose this.
WFPB and Paleo both forgo processed foods (oils, refined flours, excess sugar), so there is some common ground.
Whatever, you choose, I wish you good health and happiness.
Go says
Brilliant deanna
go says
>>I do not feel that eating healthy meats, fish, eggs, cheese and raw organic dairy is unhealthy wtih lots of fruit and vegetables.
your feelings are irrelevant. they are all unhealthy and this has been shown in many ways. but of course people don’t want to confront it.
>It is a person’s choice.
then it’s my choice , and it SHOULD be fine with you, for me to go to your house and eat your pet cat and dog, and all the pets of your friends and family. it’s my choice. right?
there’s no difference qualitatively between a “PET” and another animal.
the fact that people are too ignorant to figure out how to eat a healthy plant diet is the problem. that’s not an insult, it’s a fact due to propaganda.
we are humans. we have empathy. unnecessary killing (animal products have been proven to be not necessary for humans) is cruel and damages all things.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Your reply has to be one of the most ridiculous examples of non-equivalence and illogic yet posted here. No, you have no right to come to my house and eat my pets. Nor do you have a right to come to my house and eat plants from my garden, food in my fridge, or anything else that is mine. Do you own all the cows, sheep, chicken and farm animal raised for food in this country, that omnivores are stealing your possessions for their dinner? No. Do you own all the fish and sea creatures that omnivores are catching to eat, that they are stealing your possessions for their dinner? No. And you are incorrect that there is no distinction between pets and animals raised for food. There are very clear, legal distinctions. What’s that you say? Those are artificial, man-made differences? Yes, they are. So is wearing clothes vs. going around naked in public. So are most of the underpinnings of our life in the modern world. Now, if you want to raise your OWN “pets” to eat, by all means, have a go at it. You will find, however, that in most States, those artificial legal distinctions will fall on your head if you do so. It’s sad to see what a deficient diet does to the human brain.
deborah cambria says
I totally hold my ground….half of what you said I said I didn’t WACKO ……the most wacko of the wackos!
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I was not responding to you. I was responding to the wacko (go) that made a ridiculous comparison between eating meat from animals raised for that purpose and acquired legally to the criminal act of kidnapping and murdering people’s pets to eat them. And, yes, that comment was a prime example of lack of logic and non-equivalence. I claim no responsibility for the comment board placing comments in the wrong spot.
Goo says
Deanna, brilliant stuff, unfortunately your audience is not of a mind to use it only repeatedly try and poke holes in it.
Annie Laurie, the rationalizing diversion lunatic, does not know the concept of a thought experiment. Designed to point out the incredible hypocrisy of petting your friends and eating the ones you don’t “own”, legally. All in the name of phantom nutrient needs.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Poor Goo doesn’t know the difference between rational and rationalizing. I suppose it was a “thought experiment” that brought Goo to the conclusion that humans are “biological frugivores”. In science, we can turn “thought experiments” into actual experiments, wherein we test our conjectures against the real world, dispassionately and honestly. If the data refute our conjectures, we cheerfully and rationally abandon them and seek a better alternative. Some folks rationalize away the data and cling to their fantasies.
RICHARD GAGNON says
“And, researchers have noted many omnivores have too high omega-6 to omega3 ratios not conducive to optimal health.”
The high omega 6 level is most probably due to consumption of vegetable oils not animal products.
deanna says
Both omega 6 oils in processed foods and animal products: eggs, dairy, poultry, pork, and beef contribute significantly. Eggs and chicken are significant contributors to omega-6 fats in American diet.
deanna says
Looking at nutrition data for foods highest in total omega 6 fatty acid in dairy and eggs: an egg has about 2,300 mg butter has 2,700mg and cheese about 1,300mg. A serving of chicken or turkey can have 3,000-3,400mg of omega -6 fatty acids. These foods (95% of what’s found in store), have a omega6:3 ratio of about 15-20:1, with optimal total ratio for day being 1:1.
Sources:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-001141000000000000000-1w.html
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-005141000000000000000-2w.html
Madeline says
Those dieticians that you mentioned promote vegan propaganda and have been known to cherry pick on information on papers while ignoring the whole gist of the paper. Dr Gregar is one of them. He has been heavily criticized by the science community many times that he only picks to promote his theories. Instead of just relying on what their information, have you researched on other papers on healthy omnivorous diets? It will give you a better more none bias view.
Dr Mcdougall and his theory of pure white rice and white sugar to cure diabetes. Tell that to any diabetic doctor or endocrinologist and they will probably flip. Dr Ornish himself also failed to show 2 studies done on over a hundred individuals that his diet is in fact not superior to other diets like the weight watchers or Atkins.
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/207088
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/205916
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/200094
I’m not keen on reading up on websites or books of gurus who promote vegan propaganda. I am only interested in reading real scientific papers because they are more reliable though they sometimes can be occasionally be biased too but at least its been vetted by the Journal’s panel before being published and its scientific evidence till it is debunk. And are also conducted by scientists with a neutral mentality.
When it comes to diet, overconsumption of food is the problem not the food itself. Your theory on eggs really needs to be relooked as it is already widespread information that they are more healthy than you imagine as long as you don’t overconsume. They might be high in certain nutrients like omega 6 but they are also high in other nutrition that our body needs like vitamin A, B12, D and E as with other trace cofactors. Same goes with fish and diary.
Meat is also demonized I don’t know why when the best source of iron comes from animals because our body can absorb heme iron better than non-heme iron. This is at least a well known fact in SE Asia as we give nursing mothers chicken liver to eat during their confinement to replenish iron due to blood loss.
I trust scientific studies and my own body. Carbs especially grains like rice, wheat or grains in general prevalent in vegetarian or vegan diets wrecked havoc on my body. I tried vegetarian once hoping to heal myself but nope I got weaker and eventually anemic. I then went low carb, ate lots of vegetables and healthy amounts of meat, diary eggs did my health became good and got even better now. Even the doctor told my prediabetic mother in law to stop eating grains
deborah ann cambria says
WWWWAAAACCCCKKKOOOO s
Vegans are wackos
Joe says
This is a fairly concise response to all points raised in this article: http://www.theveganrd.com/2014/03/dont-think-twice-about-going-vegan.html
Jarred tedino says
Chuckle…
Does anyone ever wonder if any of these “authorities” or their minions have ever practiced a plant based diet with the intention to be as healthy as possible? It seems like they talk a fair game about studies; all these studies (which seem to change like the wind) and all of their perceived pitfalls with such conviction; almost like they have experienced any of the negative effects they seem so afraid of. It also appears that in fact the main tone is fear. They spread it like the Nazis did regarding jews. They promote death through propaganda. If they have not in fact participated in such a practice and have not in fact experienced any of their reported negative experiences they are in fact spreading propaganda which promotes the enslavement, rape, murder and dismemberment of others due to fears which are not actually validated by themselves. Nazis did this as we are all aware. I’m waiting for one of these dead animal gurus to report exactly how much dead animal we need to eat to be healthy. Then we can “know” exactly how many animal to murder without eating 1 milligram more than that amount due to the fact that we like the taste. It seems most do not realize there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge being the pure aquisition of information and wisdom meaning the KNOWING of such information. Knowledge is easy to obtain but wisdom requires the effort that most would forego. They set up belief systems based on aquired knowledge rather than discerned wisdom and never move beyond their blind and untested beliefs, toward wisdom. Fear is behind these folks and they want you to be just as afraid as they are so they can make money off of you. I am amused that at this point in time (it’s 2016 I think lol) we are remotely driving around rovers on Mars and still have places called slaughter houses, mothers grind up dead animals to feed to their babies, folks dress up in their best to sit down to a meal of carcasses and on the most special of occasions inflict massive amounts of extra death and suffering so all can participate in what clearly can only be considered pure gluttony. Hmm interesting. Slaughter and slavery are for sure not a way forward regardless of the past which is 100% uncertain and unable to be proven. It seems like the only thing that can be proven is that many different people from many different places throughout many different time periods ate many different things with many levels of success; proving that the the human body (the most amazing machine the world has ever known) is highly inteligent and adaptive. Logic would bring one to the next point which is with what would you fuel a highly inteligent and adaptive machine:
A: tortured dead animal parts
B: an inteligent mixture of “gifts” from our inteligent planet.
Dead animals are not gifts. Gifts are things that are given and come in brightly colored packages and that do not try to defend themselves and their young when you go to take them. You know gifts like the kind you don’t have to steal because otherwise you are a thief and I think we all know how we feel about thievery. Eat a consciously planned gift based diet and KNOW how healthy it is. You will then not be a thief but a healthy recipient of the beautiful gifts that the earth/source/god/whatever has bestowed upon us and you will have no choice but to be healthy. In turn you are returning the gifts back to the earth/source/god/whatever by not defiling her. There is no defense for eating dead animals. You either live with the land and need to eat them which requires no defence because you are a part of the natural order or you are some combination of fearful, ignorant and narsasistic which additionally requires no defense because one can not defend that in which one does not possess. Blessings and happy eating
Go says
Well that was impressive.
vegan10daysago says
I love you for what you said! Trop bien merci ^^
You are very, very wise Sir
go says
what a monumentally idiotic article.
Alicia says
I wouldn’t use such harsh words, but I, too disagree with the article. Those interested in the full story of these supposed deficiencies in the vegan diet should check out Proteinaholic by Dr. Garth Davis. Talk about eye opening and backed by tons of legitimate research!
karla says
I agree. ridiculous. Vegans are healthier and thats it. Only B12 must be takes and not always. Come on.
Agatha says
There’s tons of eye opening, legitimate research out there that supports Chris Kresser’s views. We believe what we want to believe. We read what confirms our views. It’s called confirmation bias. It doesn’t prove that what we believe is true and it doesn’t prove that we’re right.
It seems like vegans come to this website not to learn something and give it a thought, but solely to disagree with the views expressed here and to reassure each other that they’re right and Chris Kresser, the research he quotes and anyone who agrees with him are not. What a waste of time, don’t you think?
go says
No Agatha, although confirmation bias exists, kresser’s statements are demonstrably false. Period. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqcbJbElo4
Agatha says
Ah, well, if it’s “demonstrably false. Period.” then I think we don’t have anything to talk about. You’ve settled the science. And to prove that you point me to Vegan Gains – are you kidding me? That YouTube troll, well known for his aggressive outbursts directed at anyone who doesn’t agree with him? Not the best advocate for your cause.
Btw, he obsesses about Kresser being acupuncturist. What is he? A Prof. Dr. of human biology?
go says
I see that you are incapable or unwilling to contemplate facts, logic, evidence presented , instead resorting to absurd ad hominem. (strange how chris says rich roll is successful vegan, but apparently the only one on the planet, and his diet is just so very very difficult – while chris sells supplements for his perfect diet on his website. lulz. eat your animals for god’s sake, just stop trying to rationalize it, it’s embarrassing how people contort themselves .
Agatha says
Point me to where Chris says that his diet is perfect for everyone. Thank you.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe vegans don’t live supplement free or do they?
As for capabilities and willingness or lack thereof etc. – right back at ya!
Ad hominem attacks and consumption of meat… Yes, looking at the aggression Vegan Gains is known for and the offensive comments meted out by vegans in this forum alone I can understand that you’d assume someone who isn’t aggressive or offensive but merely points out the facts is an omnivore.
And this time you’d be right.
And if you’d assume that their decision to be an omnivore were based on what they’ve learned about human biology during their studies and decades long scientific career in this field you’d be right again.
Please let’s finish this conversation here. Cheers.
Go says
One supp is needed. One. Big deal. It doesn’t matter how long you studied it matters what you studied. Vegans only seem rude because they grow tired of the nonsense . the reason diet is so confusing is because of the original error. Cooking . if you don’t cook, what to eat is obvious and automatic just like all other animals.
Agatha says
Diet is not confusing. People knew instinctively for millennia what to eat. They ate everything they could put their hands on and that didn’t kill them. They found ways to make the most precious foods and the nutrients contained in them available to them. They went to great lengths to obtain those foods.
Vegans don’t seem rude – they are. They’re highly offensive in their assertions that anyone who doesn’t agree with them must be an ignorant moron, who never think about their choices in life and just mindlessly do something because they don’t know and don’t want to know any better. Unlike vegans who state ‘I don’t care what you say, you won’t convince me’? Who don’t even contemplate ‘contemplating facts’ if those don’t agree with their believes.
Ok, so more than 30 years of studying and practice is not enough for you. However you’d give me credit for medicine (gastroenterology), human biology and biochemistry? Or are those the wrong disciplines to be in any way qualified to chime in?
Go says
Vegans do that because meat eating apologists end up leaving the discussion rather than facing facts. No your studies have nothing to do with finding the correct diet.
Go says
You want to convince vegans of what? They actually do it healthfully and the only fallback to the naysayers is to claim that we’re all different or “genetics” . It’s denial of experiential data, rationalization and food addiction from the animal eating promoters. Even Chris admits it’s possible to do healthfully but then comes up with all kinds of excuses to minimize it or say how difficult it is because he personally couldn’t figure it out.
go says
this is what passes for science for most people – “I didn’t do well on X diet, therefore X diet sucks” . I mean , you couldn’t have possibly done ANYTHING WRONG on your “vegan” diet, right chris? alex jamieson didn’t do anything wrong on her diet either! incredible.
Agatha says
Do you mean ve*ans who say that the fact they feel better without animal products, because those made them feel heavy and bloated is proof that being ve*an is the healthiest way to live? You see, had they known anything about human physiology and digestion they’d have thought of the possibility of simply having low stomach acid. But they didn’t and so they did meat eating wrong.
Go says
Haha your funny I’ll wait here while you critique vegan gains video
deborah ann cambria says
A vegan diet cannot sustain human life for MOST people without supplementation…This in itself should be an indication that it is not the best diet for most of us.
Go says
The vegan diet IS suitable for virtually everyone with the addition of b12. And that is ONLY because our cultural environment is relatively sterile.
Alicia says
Actually, I don’t even necessarily consider myself a “true” vegan at this point. I thought Paleo, WAPF and the like had some good points, but felt a lot of guilt about animal products.
I happened to watch Forks Over Knives only recently, and decided to look into it all further. I picked up Proteinaholic at the library on a whim. It wasn’t even the book I was looking for.
He points out why a lot of “studies” are not scientifically sound. I highly recommend the book for anyone, vegan or not. However, I think most people would have a hard time continuing to consume animal products after reading it!
So, I came to this website to see if there was something that is lacking in the vegan diet, and see that it’s the same misinformation that I’ve read for years and, unfortunately, believed.
Eva says
I wish I could do without meat. But in my case is purely humanitarian aspect, love of animals. I tried it once for 8 weeks and I really didn’t feel well.
I am not a big meat eater, 2-3 times a week chicken, occasionally pork and fish. Steaks, never.Too hard to digest.
And at age 64 I feel quilty( eating meat).Try to eat balanced diet, drinking protein shakes, taking fish oil and few other supplements, only almond milk…..well in my age I have no issues, no medications and my MRI scan says , better neurologist, my brain looks 20 years younger then my chronological age.
But reading these comments, vegetarians and mainly vegans.They are so defensive, argumentative almost rude.They are like far left political party and nothing in this world would convince them to think about all aspects.They just don’t want to hear it!
Live and let others live.Whatever works for you!
go says
That’s good that you tried to go without meat for 8 weeks. but not feeling well has to do with how you were doing the diet.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
The most amazing benefit of the vegan diet is the way it gives its practitioners the ability to make medical diagnoses of a person’s problems from her brief comment on an Internet forum. No need for physical exam, medical history, lab tests and all that science-y stuff.
go says
annielaurie,
congratulations, that was a particularly lame response. If I don’t know her personally, that means that there is no comment that I can make! good one!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
AnnieLaurie Burke says
That was a comment that accurately reflects the vegan response to anyone that states that a vegan diet did not help their health problem. If a vegan diet isn’t working for you, it’s because YOU are doing it wrong. Now, that is a lame diagnostic. It couldn’t be because vegan diets don’t work for everyone (a fact that even so-called vegan experts acknowledge). Veganism has sadly become a cult. It is an unnatural eating pattern, and a relatively recent one at that.
Go says
Yes in the vast majority of cases people do it wrong . I have demonstrated this countless times in real world examples. And of course u still ignore the ramifications of the statements of all nutritional orgs and u fail to respond to the critique of kresser that I posted. So typical avoidance as I said. And typical rhetoric about the 1 percent that have a genetic issue and even those can be managed. Carnivory is a cult, sadly, with endless apologists.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
It is silly vegan name-calling to speak of “carnivory” when discussing human diets. There are vegan sites, books and articles that call humans that include animal products in their diets “blood-mouthed carnivores”. Are such over-the-top histrionics considered normal in your circle? Humans are omnivorous — not carnivorous, not herbivorous. Yes, even the Arctic peoples are omnivores. Omnivory is Nature’s “cult”, a dietary lifeway arrived at by 2,500,000 years of successful human evolution. Yet a very tiny group of humans are advocating an unnatural diet with a very short history. You throw out figures like “1%” of people needing animal products — that is another example of vegan “pop science”. We have learned more about human nutritional needs in the last decade than we knew during the previous century. We’ve even “discovered” nutrients vital to human health that were unrecognized even 20-30 years ago. The fact is that we still do not know what percentage of people will suffer ill-health if they lack certain nutrients, how many have trouble absorbing certain nutrients from certain sources, and how much our abilities to absorb/synthesize certain nutrients changes with age and other conditions. But some vegans are smug enough to pretend they have all the answers. Again, all can advise them is to “get science”.
go says
you’re still going?
>It is silly vegan name-calling to speak of “carnivory” when discussing human diets.
I am aware of the fact that humans are not carnivores. I used the word in reference to the activity. when eating animals, humans are acting in a carnivorous manner. humans are not omnivorous. humans are biological frugivores. we are only able to ACT as omnivores via the act of cooking, which should tell you something, but apparently it does not.
>>There are vegan sites, books and articles that call humans that include animal products in their diets “blood-mouthed carnivores”. Are such over-the-top histrionics considered normal in your circle?
I would suggest that you spend less time talking about your opinion of vegans “attitudes”. it’s pointless and diversionary as I have already told you. you have avoided the ADA position, the video, ginny messinas article, etc. and that is because there is no argument against them other than for you to say “vegan propaganda” , “evolution”, and “not 100% of people can go vegan”.
>>We have learned more about human nutritional needs in the last decade than we knew during the previous century. We’ve even “discovered” nutrients vital to human health that were unrecognized even 20-30 years ago. The fact is that we still do not know what percentage of people will suffer ill-health if they lack certain nutrients, how many have trouble absorbing certain nutrients from certain sources, and how much our abilities to absorb/synthesize certain nutrients changes with age and other conditions. But some vegans are smug enough to pretend they have all the answers. Again, all can advise them is to “get science”.
until you can get specific, there’s nothing to discuss. it’s just fearmongering on your part.
Agatha says
Oh, for goodness sake! Biological frugivores! I guess no-one told the Inuits and the Maasai.
It boggles my mind that in this day and age people spout this sort of nonsense and feel their ‘knowledge’ is superior. It doesn’t bode well for our species. How did we ever make it to the moon?
We’ve become omnivores because of cooking? There is plenty of non-plant foods that can be consumed raw like honey, dairy, various kinds of seafood and fish and also meat. Plenty of vegetables that can be eaten raw. And there is fruit that requires cooking or other sort of preparation to make it palatable.
Please, go and learn something – anything! – about human physiology. Also, I recommend to you the history of humanity. It will show you that none of the old, ‘primitive’ cultures, not one of them was vegan. They weren’t even vegetarian. They all valued animal foods highly and went to great lengths to obtain them. Although they were ‘primitive’ they obviously knew more about health and nutrition than you, the ‘biological frugivore’.
You can afford to be vegan because of the privilege of living here and now.
AnnieLaurie Burke, I don’t know why you still engage with this person. You surely know the old saying about the horse – was it? – that you can lead to the water, but you can’t make it drink?
go says
>>Oh, for goodness sake! Biological frugivores! I guess no-one told the Inuits and the Maasai.
omg, you’re an idiot.
what the hell do inuits and masai have to do with our digestive system? the fact that the masai drink blood means they are suddenly bloodivores? all you paleos ever do is put out exceptions and think it means something.
>It boggles my mind that in this day and age people spout this sort of nonsense and feel their ‘knowledge’ is superior.
what nonsense?
>We’ve become omnivores because of cooking?
yes
>There is plenty of non-plant foods that can be consumed raw like
honey, (not easily acquired)
dairy, (go suck on a cow then, unnatural)
various kinds of seafood and fish and also meat.
difficult for humans to catch and eat and digest and not attractive for our senses.
Plenty of vegetables that can be eaten raw.
(you don’t even know what a frugivore is! you think it’s exclusively fruit? and you call me ignorant? )
>And there is fruit that requires cooking or other sort of preparation to make it palatable.
then it shouldn’t be eaten! duh!
what’s that got to do with frugivore?
>Please, go and learn something – anything! – about human physiology. Also, I recommend to you the history of humanity.
I am well versed in it.
>It will show you that none of the old, ‘primitive’ cultures, not one of them was vegan. They weren’t even vegetarian.
some were some weren’t
> They all valued animal foods highly and went to great lengths to obtain them.
because they moved out of their original climate zone or insufficient proper food available.
>Although they were ‘primitive’ they obviously knew more about health and nutrition than you, the ‘biological frugivore’.
not likely
>You can afford to be vegan because of the privilege of living here and now.
true.
and you can afford to not be vegan by being cowardly and having someone else kill your animals.
deborah ann cambria says
I am convinced vegans like the ones that are screaming here are totally nuts. There is no logical communication with them.
Go says
No Deborah it means youre brainwashed.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qzSaKS7MvXg
deborah ann cambria says
Or you are brainwashed! You are like a member of a cult!
And you are totally rude.
Makes me want to do eat some animals and all their babies.
Agatha says
Aw, Deborah, I think you’ve poked a beast here… Made me laugh though. Good luck ; )
AnnieLaurie Burke says
When I see such foolishness as “biological frugivore” , my 45+ years as a scientist compel me to comment. Not for the sake of convincing “GO” (old saw says the hardest person to argue with is the one that has no idea what he is talking about), but for the sake of other people reading the comments. There are people that are very sincere in their beliefs about being/becoming vegan, and such nonsense as thinking they evolved to eat fruit, at worst, might lead them to a deficient diet, and, at best, will make them look ignorant if they discuss human nutrition with others. Honestly, I cannot understand the vitriol directed at Chris for this article. He tried to point out the potential downsides of vegan diets so that people could educate themselves and take steps to avoid those if they choose a vegan lifestyle.
Agatha says
Some people just have a strange need to be right and to convince others that their right. They voice their opinions (because it ain’t knowledge) with religious fervor. They are immune to any rational argument. They can’t be helped. Oh, well… I understand your concern, but it really is not worth it getting upset about it.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
There goes the silly pseudo-science again. An animal may be eating a certain food at a certain time, but that does not change his nature or his classification as omnivore/herbivore/carnivore. So when my cat chews on some catnip leaves, she’s an herbivore? Get real. She remains an obligate carnivore regardless of how much grass she nibbles. Humans are NOT frugivores. A fruitarian diet is lacking in many nutrients humans require. I’ve seldom heard even the most ardent vegans recommend a fruitarian diet. We evolved as omnivores. All evidence from evolutionary biology, genetics, and anthropology support the omnivorous nature of humans, as does our physiology. Even our closest relatives, the bonobos and chimpanzees, are omnivores. More intensive study in the last two decades of those primates have shown the importance of hunting (meat acquisition) in their groups. If you want references, check out any anthropology and/or evolutionary biology textbook, treatise, study, etc. There are literally thousands of them, with hard scientific evidence of hunting and meat eating from the earliest members of the genus Homo.
go says
>>>There goes the silly pseudo-science again. An animal may be eating a certain food at a certain time, but that does not change his nature or his classification as omnivore/herbivore/carnivore. So when my cat chews on some catnip leaves, she’s an herbivore? Get real.
all of the above is absurd as I have never made that claim.
>Humans are NOT frugivores. A fruitarian diet is lacking in many nutrients humans require.
you, and Agatha don’t even know what a frugivore is.
” It can be any type of herbivore or omnivore where fruit is a preferred food type.”
NOT EXCLUSIVELY FRUIT!
fruit and other plant parts.
and there are no nutrients lacking except maybe b12 and as I have already said, that’s only because we live in sterile environment.
I am aware that we have eaten animal foods. has nothing to do with what I am saying.
even if we have never eaten fully vegan or frugivore it is still the best diet for today for a multitude of reasons.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
You did say, “when eating animals, humans are acting in a carnivorous manner. ” No, we are acting in an omnivorous manner, because omnivores eat both plant and animal foods. When we eat various foods, we are not alternating between carnivory and herbivory. That’s semantic drivel. And you are incorrect. Frugivore is defined as an animal that eats fruit as it’s main dietary component. You cannot change the meaning of terms to create your own word salad. Now you are saying that, even if humans did not evolve as frugivores/herbivores, that’s still our ideal diet because … reasons? Please, get science. You are embarrassing yourself.
go says
>>>And you are incorrect. Frugivore is defined as an animal that eats fruit as it’s main dietary component. You cannot change the meaning of terms to create your own word salad.
YOU are the one who was implying that frugivore was ONLY FRUIT and there were nutrients missing! so was agatha.
so stop lying.
>Now you are saying that, even if humans did not evolve as frugivores/herbivores, that’s still our ideal diet because … reasons? Please, get science. You are embarrassing yourself.
such condescension from a non vegan? for shame.
1. foods that are not plants have negative consequences for humans, especially if cooked. yes i am aware that some plants have neg conseq that’s why they should be avoided also.
2. all species eat foods based on their physiology and digestion in the raw state. following that directive we automatically go towards plants as we do not have the capacity to acquire and digest animals foods efficiently.
3. there are many other reasons with respect to uricase and other enzymes, etc.
humans are in a unique situation due to movement away from ideal climate, cooking and other factors, but many many factors indicate that plant based and as raw as possible is best for health.
why don’t you take some time and provide some POSITIVE input if you wish this to continue and describe your specific diet and why you choose it.
Agatha says
Frugivore is a noun that describes any chiefly fruit-eating organism, so no, humans are not frugivores.
Contrary to your assertion humans are perfectly capable to acquire and digest animal foods including meat. They’re also perfectly fine with eating cooked foods.
go says
>>Frugivore is a noun that describes any chiefly fruit-eating organism, so no, humans are not frugivores.
you are in a bounded area. in that area is you, a nest of bees in a tree, fruit hanging from trees, some other plants, some bitter some not bitter, tubers, squirrels, cows, birds, nests with eggs.
you tell me what you would eat.
you gonna eat the cow? the honey?
tubers? birds, eggs? you gonna steal the poor babies from the mother birds, when there’s fruit and leaves and celery freely available?
(answer:you would be frugivorous)
of course in our current environment with weapons and cooking we eat just about anything. and what health has that given most of us? no, it’s not just junk food that causes ill health.
>Contrary to your assertion humans are perfectly capable to acquire and digest animal foods including meat.
mostly with tools and weapons. children are not attracted to eating bloody animals or most other animal foods. only through culture do we accept it.
>They’re also perfectly fine with eating cooked foods.
there is nothing perfectly fine about the health of humans while eating cooked food. and many people have demonstrated the benefits of moving from cooked to raw diets. the whole problem with cooked is that it enables us to eat things we wouldn’t normally eat, and this creates problems. of course we do it to survive as survival is better than not survival.
Agatha says
Hooey… that’s all I can say. Sigh…
go says
you would eat the hooey? did you mean honey?
see what happens when a logical situation is presented and it conflicts with your dearly held beliefs?
you run away.
Agatha says
Hooey, poppycock, hokum, bunk – look it up in a dictionary.
No, the problem is there is no logical anything in what you write and I’m not going to waste my time trying to convince you to give science a chance, because that’s not gonna happen, right? I mean, you’ve been arguing your case here for what, two years now? I guess, it would be un-vegan to give rational thought a… well, a thought.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Indeed. Some anthropologists and evolutionary biologists hypothesize those two factors (adding meat with its more readily assimilated nutrients, and cooking, which made some plant nutrients more bioavailable) contributed to the rapid relative growth of the human brain and enabled us to become modern humans more rapidly.
go says
more readily assimilable nutrients! lol.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
That has to be your most ignorant comment yet. Various nutrients do, indeed, vary in how readily assimilable they are, depending on their source, the co-factors which naturally occur with them in a given food, etc. Do a little research on plant vs. animal-sourced omega-3s, heme iron vs. plant iron, etc. Are you quite daft? This has been established science for decades. You are working hard on destroying any shred of credibility you still have. That, and your use of yourself as an example of the efficacy of your dietary recommendations, ought to give pause to anyone still taking your comments seriously.
Go says
You were trying to claim advantages to eating animal food due to being more assimilable and you are clueless as diet must take in all factors not individual factors. And Excess iron, which often occurs on animal diets is a bad thing not a good thing. Finally, and I do mean finally, you claimed insufficiency and I used myself as an example to refute your generalist claim. Of course insufficiency CAN occur, but it can occur on any diet and EXCESS , which nobody seems to recognize, occurs more frequently on animal food diets, hence kidney and other organic problems. Adios.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
More nonscientific nonsense from “some Internet guy”. And your “citation” is a youtube video. We don’t need no stinkin’ peer-reviewed technical journals….
Agatha says
That’s right.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Your post consists of disingenuous blather, misrepresenting what other commenters said. But the one, rare interesting phrase in there is: “such condescension from a non vegan? for shame.” It appears you think it’s OK, then, for vegans to be condescending. And, indeed, many of them are, as evidenced by some of the comments in response to this article. But raw fruitarians must be in a class by themselves. Out of one side of your mouths, you make a distorted appeal to evolutionary biology. Out of the other side, you reject it completely. So, yes, please get science. Real science. Not fantasy “science”. You want shame? How about the knowledge that anyone naive enough to follow your advice could end up with severe deficiencies, not to mention bacterial food poisoning?
go says
“such condescension from a non vegan? for shame.” It appears you think it’s OK, then, for vegans to be condescending.
no, I was merely stating something that you would claim vegans do and turning it around to you since you were exhibiting that behavior that you claim vegans are guilty of. get it?
see? you just did it below, but it’s ok for you to do it.
>> And, indeed, many of them are, as evidenced by some of the comments in response to this article.
>>But raw fruitarians must be in a class by themselves. Out of one side of your mouths, you make a distorted appeal to evolutionary biology.
fruitarian not equal to frugivore
the appeal is real, not distorted, you must be wearing prisms instead of glasses.
>Out of the other side, you reject it completely.
yet another false statement.
>So, yes, please get science. Real science. Not fantasy “science”. You want shame? How about the knowledge that anyone naive enough to follow your advice could end up with severe deficiencies, not to mention bacterial food poisoning?
ooh, scary. funny how I have no deficiencies and have had nutritional testing done, 30 years not long enough i guess.
so you’ve decided not to offer anything positive?
tell me about these deficiencies, is it the typical broscience? dha, vitamin K, blah blah?
AnnieLaurie Burke says
You did say, “when eating animals, humans are acting in a carnivorous manner. ” No, we are acting in an omnivorous manner, because omnivores eat both plant and animal foods. When we eat various foods, we are not alternating between carnivory and herbivory. That’s semantic drivel. And you are incorrect. Frugivore is defined as an animal that eats fruit as its main dietary component. You cannot change the meaning of terms to create your own word salad. Now you are saying that, even if humans did not evolve as frugivores/herbivores, that’s still our ideal diet because … reasons? Please, get science. You are embarrassing yourself.
go says
http://www.ecologos.org/mcardle.htm
Agatha says
Too true : )
Eva, do what works for you. Vegan doesn’t and that’s all right and not at all surprising. It has nothing to do with you doing it wrong. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. No need for steaks. Organ meats and cheaper cuts like beef cheeks or osso bucco, that have to be slow cooked are much better – they cheaper, they tastier and richer in nutrients than muscle meat. I’d do that instead of pork and add a bit more fish, 2-3 times a week if you can get wild caught fish instead of farmed and if you can afford it. As for chicken – I hope this includes chicken broth.
Go says
So you’re prescribing meat therapy while criticizing others. Gotcha.
go says
for example:
“Try to eat balanced diet, drinking protein shakes, taking fish oil and few other supplements, only almond milk”
No. not even close.
joe science
AnnieLaurie Burke says
That does not make sense in relation to my comment. But, with very little tweaking, it sounds just like the vegan universal prescription (with my comments on parentheses): “Eat a balanced plant-based diet, get your protein only from plant sources, take B-12, and use flaxseed for omega 3s, use only almond or soy milk because animal milks are ‘bad for you’ (nice quantitative term there). Man is the only animal that drinks the milk of other species (not true, but makes a good sound byte)”. Man is also the only animal that cooks its food, wears clothes or publishes books, so lets get rid of those unnatural perversions, too — they must be “bad for you”.
Go says
You’ve learned well from kresser and Rogan. You think that just saying vegans believe x is an argument.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I guess a vegan diet may also impair one’s reading comprehension. I didn’t say “vegans believe x”. I merely noted the very common vegan dietary prescription, the very common vegan tendency to blame anyone’s ability to thrive on a vegan diet on the person, and the very common vegan habit of making medical diagnoses of a person’s dietary issues from a brief comment on Internet blogs. Not all vegans do this, of course, but a great many do. One has only to read the comments on this article to see that. And I forgot to mention, the very common vegan habit of attributing the content of other commenters’ comments to authors the vegan does not like. You have absolutely no idea whatsoever where I have acquired my knowledge of human nutrition, nor do you have any idea of the content of said knowledge. Remember what “they” say about assumptions….
Go says
You’re boring and ranting and of course avoiding. Bottom line ,for many reasons humans can and should get as close to vegan as they can and stop the lame excuses and pay attention to those who make it work, instead of following dumb advice like ingesting oils or thinking ur gonna be protein deficient.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I’m boring? I suppose you think your silly ad hominem attacks and rejection of logic and science make you the most exciting thing to ever come down the pike. I don’t find ignorance and arrogance particularly exciting. Veganism has sadly become a proselytizing cult. People that follow other dietary regimes are content to seek their own health goals, share experiences if asked, and acknowledge that others have the same right to seek what works best for them. Many vegans feel compelled to announce their philosophy to one and all, insist it is the one true faith, ignore their part in animal suffering and environmental degradation, reject the wisdom of 2.5 million years of human evolution, and assert that they are right “and that’s it”. It would be amusing if it were not so pitiful and harmful.
Go says
Every sentence from you is avoidance and diversion.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
As I noted previously, and as you continue to substantiate, you have a reading comprehension problem. Obviously I am not avoiding you. I continue to respond to your off-topic and insulting posts, in the possibly vain hope that you will address the issues raised in the article, and those germane to same by other commenters.
Go says
I posted a link to a video debunking kresser claims. Stop playing games
AnnieLaurie Burke says
You post links to biased, unscientific vegan propaganda and expect that will suffice in lieu of science. But you don’t consider that to be “game playing”. Amazing. To begin with, it is disingenuous to label the points in the article as “Kresser claims”. There are no “Kresser claims”. Chris has posted links and citations to the studies from which the points in his article are drawn.
go says
you REFUSE to address the points made!
you talk about the source even though scientific studies and logic are presented in the video!
either didn’t even watch the video, or are incapable of critiquing it.
either way, you have fulfilled my original prescription as a serial avoider.
take care and have a great life.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Ah. Perhaps there is an explanation for the surly attitude: “Vegetarians Found To Have More Cancer, Allergies And Mental Health Disorders” http://www.science20.com/news_articles/vegetarians_found_to_have_more_cancer_allergies_and_mental_health_disorders-133332
go says
girrrrlll! you still going? you stalking me now?
🙂
https://awaypoint.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/cherry-picking-1.jpg
Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
“Stalking”??? Do you understand what that term means? What silly, overblown drama and paranoia! Perhaps there was something to that article after all. This is a comment forum for registered members, of which I am one. You implicitly agree, when you post, that anyone that is a member can reply. That is the format in which comments are noticed to members. Surely you do not expect that being rude and overbearing will bully other members into silence, no matter what insults or erroneous information you post? This is yet another example of the pattern other commenters have noted — some vegans want to pretend that, if non-vegans respond to their dogma, they are being attacked.
go says
that was a joke. see the smiley? of course you did, you just wanted to go on another rant . you animal eaters are so angry! see I can generalize too! now stay in character, and continue to not respond to the SUBSTANCE of the video i posted or the link to the ADA position on veganism or anything else. are we done yet?
AnnieLaurie Burke says
What makes you think I’m angry? I could be having a blast needling overwrought vegans. Many of them are thin-skinned (it’s probably the lack of B12, D3, DHA and such). But it’s for a good cause, to push for more logic, rigor and science in their arguments. Not “we are healthier and that’s it”.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
“Vegetarians are healthier and thats (sic) it”. Gee, what an illuminating use of scientific evidence and grammar wreckage to boot! Not to offend the religious, but this is like that bumper sticker that asserts “God said it, I believe it, and that’s it”. That my be a valid sentiment about faith, but is not acceptable when it comes to human physiology. While some vegetarians, and some vegans in particular, claim they are being harassed by omnivores, in actuality, it is their smug, cultish, faith-not-science-based assertions about their supposedly superior lifestyle that triggers some of the responses they receive. First, there is no hard scientific evidence that vegetarians are healthier than omnivores. Next, a vegetarian lifestyle does NOT eliminate animal suffering — research the wildlife and habitat destruction caused by agriculture (palm oil, anyone?). But what is most sadly amusing to many of the scientists among us is their arrogance in rejecting the wisdom of 2.5 million years of human evolution. Can a person be healthy on a vegetarian or a vegan diet? Probably. But no one is going to arrive at that goal by citing opinions such as “thats it”, nor dubious references such as “Cowspiracy” and other such unscientific foolishness. Kresser has tried to identify potential problem areas in a vegetarian diet (based on science), and offer some suggestions for avoiding those (again, based on science). If some folks would rather accept the unsupported assertions of a self-proclaimed “vegan-expert-on-the-Internet” in lieu of science, I sincerely hope she does not run into dietary deficiencies as a result.
Go says
And the “problems with omnivory”? Do you want me to write a book on that? No it’s always veganism. Do you know why? Because people think the rdas are carved in stone. Classic
Ching chong says
veganism is dumb, keemstar is my hero
aaron says
why? because it doesnt agree with your ideologies?
Go says
Because it contradicts clear facts.
mart says
Hi Chris,
I want to know about cruciferous-vegetable-extract. I have an important question. My father is 70 years old. His Total Testosterone is 343 & Free T is 10. Estrogen level = 20.
I want to increase his T levels but I am worried that taking your above product might not reduce the estrogen levels too much. As you mentioned optimum levels for estrogen is between 21-30 and too less(less than 18) and too much- both are bad. So I am afraid his levels might not reduce below 18.
Can you please provide your opinion on the above question asked so that I can get clear. It’s quite urgent.
Thanks a lot.
Reezy K says
Here is some empirical evidence. 48% population in India are Vegetarian… Average life expectancy for the past 3-4 years 66!!! Before that 40-50.
Lol @yoga and @eating grass! Centenairians all eat mixed diet. And if you get the chance to meet one… Common thread is activity / out in the sun / animal protein portions with almost all meals. Ps I live in Japan. I’ve personally never met a healthy vegetarian… Pretty feeble non energetic tend to be little mentally unbalanced and biased. You might like the grass bandwagon for the last 1-3 years let’s see your health when you do 5 years plus+. Protein salad should be a new trend! Beef / fish / eggs / pork / cheese.
Alice says
While I hold no firm position either way on the matter, I did want to mention that the number you ascribed to vegetarian Indians seems suspiciously similar to the life expectancy numbers for Indians on the whole (66). According to random google searches, only about 30% of Indians are vegetarian, therefore, I was curious if you are sure your data corresponds to them, or if you were just talking about Indians on the whole; on the whole, there is a lot of corruption and poverty in India so…without controlling for confounding factors such as those I am not sure how relevant dietary data could be obtained.
However, oddly, there are studies with 7th day Adventists indicating that those group of vegetarians have lifespans on average exceeding the norm. However, there again – confounding factors as these people are farm oriented, don’t drink, and most likely get a good deal of physical activity (and perhaps have a healthier psychological outlook than most).
At any rate, I don’t know many centurions but, I do know a person who lived to 95 and, he made the comment that it’s not the quantity of your years, but the quality. I personally hold no position as to what dietary choices lead to highest quality, but, it seemingly is something overlooked entirely by some in favor of a number.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Thank you, Alice, for pointing out at least two factors that may render many opinions on the vegan-vs.-omnivore longevity debate moot: first, none of the studies cited to support either side adequately deals with confounding (non-dietary) factors; and second, some of these confounding factors may ultimately have more to do with longevity than any specific dietary regimen.
deanna says
Agree health span and quality of life, top priority. Good news! the centenarians of Blue Zones, also enjoy lengthy health span and high quality of life in twilight years, not just increased longevity. These people eat a range of plant-based diets, from 90-100% plant based. The animal sourced food is typically fish, and small backyard animal foods: chicken, special occasion stewed pork, with fat skimmed off, and organic eggs.
Dairy and beef are notably absent or, for dairy, in small amounts in fermented form: yogurt or cheese, not milk.
abandoned cubicle says
Agree. I would go with the very compelling evidence offered up by Blue Zones. Modern day folks living healthily and happily into their late 90s or 100s. Isn’t the end goal of any so-called “life style” or “diet” (paleo, primal, or otherwise)?
I tried primal over the last 12 months and it failed me on the autoimmune promise. Admittedly, I sabotaged myself with too much cow dairy and likely too much suspect/non-organic meats. At least with Blue Zones, there is limited/no cow dairy and limited/low meat consumption to short-circuit things.
Colin says
I have lived in Japan for over ten years and was not active and was over weight for most of that time. I see and hear of quite a few people dying here at around 60 from cancer which I think is related to ever worsening diets. You observing “Pretty feeble non energetic tend to be little mentally unbalanced and biased” people (vegetarians?) I’d call your bias myself. At least if you’re applying averages as in your disconnected observations of Indians. Yes, Japan’s famous level of health and longevity is collapsing and if you’re making comparison then use statistics which are closer to (your current) home instead of India and talk about your reality. There is plenty of empirical evidence suggesting the excess meat Japanese people are tending to add into their diet is in parallel with their diminishing lifespans. Now that I’ve learned to take a more rational approach to health and as you say become active, fit, educated about nutrition and even vegan I have a much healthier outlook and am able to be more rational in my day to day life. As the earlier commenter said I’m going for quality of life.
Alice says
Hi Colin,
I’m afraid I must take partial responsibility for Reezy’s digression about the Indians…I originally brought up that tangent because I read about it in many vegetarian circles, not as a counter argument, but usually as an argument that a vegetarian diet can be healthy for a large group of people. So I too would be guilty of looking abroad rather than close to home for empirical evidence. At any rate, I’m also very impressed with the Japanese longevity – particularly because it seemed to rebound even despite Hiroshima and what I’m imagining was pretty severe residual radiation. I know they are a heavily pescatarian culture…or were…and, I’m wondering how this will pan out with Fukashima being there. From my limited perspective, it seems like a lot of their health benefits probably derived from eating a largely plant based, but also pescatarian diet, but that this is no longer feasible due to oceanic contamination. Anyway, I’m not a big proponent of any one dietary choice, although obviously vegan is most ethical in terms of moral and ecological perspectives. On a tangent, since we’re struggling with secondary infertility, I am alarmed at how many vegans seem to post about this topic (fertility) – and I continue to have reservations about it’s ideal-ness for reproducing women and very young children, but I know others differ in their beliefs on this, and I respect that varied belief. Anyway, I obviously don’t believe vegetarians to be unbalanced people, but felt as though I should take some responsibility for that tangent…the India part.
Leopold says
Vegetables have plenty of protein, and they’re complete proteins as well
FOR MORE INFORMATION FOLLOW THE LINK BELOW
http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/protein.html
Brittany Flowerday says
I’m sorry, but vegetarian/vegan diets are the best out there; as long as you follow them correctly (include fruits, veggies, whole grain/wheat, nuts, seeds, etc.). There is more evidence out there proving vegetarian/vegan diets than disproving them.
Alice says
I see sometimes people still read this. In case any vegetarians/vegans make it down to this post, I’d love to hear your comments. Here’s my issue: I completely agree about the evilness of animal torture and personal accountability. However, here are the issues I am facing.
I read that the daily recommended iron intake is 33mg per day for a vegetarian woman (as opposed to 18mg per day for a meat-eating woman). I started doing some math and identified lentils and beans as having 5 mg per cup. But that basically seems to mean I’d have to eat nearly 7 cups a day of beans. Or lentils. Is this the quantity of beans and/or alternatively, 5 entire 10 oz packages of spinach? This just seems like a lot…we sometimes eat chickpeas in our chana masala but, the quantity required just to meet the iron quota is intimidating…are these the quantities you guys are eating every day?
I know some people say to eat fortified foods or to use vitamin supplements but, I have a high distrust of these companies and I recently read that iron supplements can cause cellular damage: http://www.techtimes.com/articles/133742/20160215/iron-supplements-may-damage-dna-within-10-minutes.htm.
I also struggle with the B12; as we all know Fukashima went off in Japan, and also even besides that B12 obtained from seaweed/algae grown in China is oftentimes contaminated – not, I believe, because it inherently has to be – but just again, suppliers taking shortcuts. I recently found a source of Spirulina from India that seems promising but, I don’t know; I really feel high anxiety taking supplements as the industry is riddled with (to me) lack of ethics.
So how do any of you (vegetarians or vegans) meet all the nutritional recommended values (please be specific – if you could list out your diet with quantities that would be great).
I was recently also frustrated by chia seeds. I routinely add flax seed and chia seeds to my greek yogurt, and my husband came around saying not to eat the chia seeds unless they are ground as something about their shell and that the HCL doesn’t manage to get it all off and then they cause bowel issues; I haven’t experienced this but, this is part of my frustration – I don’t have a degree in nutrition – and I’m always relying on 2nd hand information – so I don’t know what to trust.
Anyway, the most confounding issue in all of this is I have babies, so I’m breastfeeding as well. My son is finally getting old enough (past a year) to eat foods but, is still largely breastfed, and literally cannot consume the vast quantities necessary to get 7mg of iron a day. Strangely, he never has tested anemic even despite our not supplementing iron. So I don’t even know if the whole requirement thing is bogus, as it was derived from animal studies in the 60s and 70s but – assuming it is not I guess?
Anyway, at this point we are murdering sardines and the occasional salmon, but I am thinking of returning to the grassfed chicken that is humanely raised on the local CSA no-spray organic hippie farm next to us (the chickens do not have the cut beaks, and are always roaming around outside, and have pretty spacious accommodations). However, obviously, they are still killed so, no delusions about that.
Anyway, my temptation with going the chicken route is not really for the chicken meat, but for the chicken liver, because I see it as a way to give my children their required iron in a reliable way that does not cause cellular damage.
But I am curious if someone smarter than me may have figured out a way around this in the vegan vegetarian culture.
Part of me feels like maybe I will be able to transition to that diet, but part of me feels a great terror of winding up nutrient deficient…so, help me out with details.
Amber says
Another source I found that lists iron in plant foods: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/iron
P.S. I agree it’s hard to know what is best for you and your family especially with so much conflicting “evidence” supporting different diets. But one thing that I have never seen disputed is that the more veggies you eat the better off you’ll be.
Alice says
Thanks for the empathy Amber! It’s been very stressful. I read over that website but, while a good source of information, a lot of which I was aware of – it still doesn’t get me over the “volume” consumption aspect – well, at least with the kids.
However, I’ve come across a happy revelation – this could be key; chickpeas are my go-to iron source, but, according to the Simple Truth brand 120 g only contain 10% of the recommended iron intake. I was frustrated by this and then was shocked to look up on Google that 100g actually as 6.2mg of iron. Basically that takes us down from 6-7 cups of chickpeas (for me) to just 3 cans, which is much, much more doable from a daily perspective. I’m actually on the phone with Kroger trying to figure out if there’s something particularly wrong with their chickpeas or something. It’s stuff like this that is maddening – I’m not sure what I can trust any more.
WELL, I just got off the phone with Kroger and now I’m stunned – THEY are correct – because “canned” garbanzo beans apparently have 1/2 the nutritional value of “raw” garbanzo beans. The same volume. Crazy. Maybe it’s absorbed water or something? They go off the USDA website. So, apparently…I should be getting these raw? I wonder if boiling them destroys the iron somehow? Man, and I thought I had the solution.
Anyway, I have other problems. My babies don’t seem to want to eat the sardines either. So right now, it’s down to the chicken livers for iron – or nothing. Well, I guess one of them is still breastfeeding. I even read on a vegan website that due to oxalates spinach blocks iron absorption? And then people debating that in the comments. That would be really terrible for us as I’ve been trying to desperately push spinach and eat tons of it myself in hopes for iron.
But I saw an even more mindblowing video about this commune that eats only fruits. According to the USDA, these people and their kids should all be dead. I mean…or at least sickly with anemia. They all did look incredibly thin but, I don’t know…I would think anemia or serious health issues would be more observable? They seemed to be active and otherwise alive…maybe it takes more years for someone to die from just eating fruit?
I don’t know how much stock I can put in anything the government recommends, but, at some point someone has to trust something.
In short, I don’t know, and I’m frustrated – now I am trying to figure out why boiled garbanzo beans have lost 1/3 of their nutrients…
deborah ann cambria says
First, chia seeds will gel in liquid. They do not need to be ground. Flax seeds should be ground though.
It is very difficult to get enough iron without eating animal products. Eggs are good, liver is terrific. Your baby will not test anemic because the baby gets what they need but you will get depeleted. It takes time for the ill effects of diet to be seen. Some people have an easier time with vegan, and even raw diets due to their inherited gene expressions. I don’t know if we know enough people that have been raw vegans for generations to be able to properly critique the lifestyle. Some people seem to do so well because they cut out a lot of toxins and poor quality food.
Alice says
Thanks for the reply Deborah! Actually, we were recently worried that my baby itself could be anemic as his pin prick test tested low; I say baby but…he’s actually more of a toddler…16 months. However, we did a full blown blood test and, surprisingly, he tested normal for hemoglobin, despite having low iron.
In the interim I had started trying to feed him liver out of desperation and a distrust of vitamin supplements. However even this he only ate a few bites of, and I learned that it’s dangerous to get iron primarily from liver because of the possibility of vitamin A overdose if one consumes it too frequently. But he does now eat his daily egg.
We’ve had some tremendous luck in that recently the kids have taken to beans. I’ve had a bit of a scare from some studies about phytoestrogens in sheep and sterility, but, just as we have sometimes a meat addiction, sadly, probably from my efforts to turn us vegan, we also kind of have a bean addiction now for better or worse. I know there’s a heated debate about phytoestrogens but, having only boys, even the possibility of inducing prostate cancer or overloading them with estrogen obviously concerns me but…on the other hand, they are such good sources of iron. I guess some sheep eating alfalfa sprouts became sterile or something for a while though. It seems like everything is questionable, including, I have found, the original studies about iron to begin with (they were conducted almost exclusively in ghettos, and sometimes the kids also were exposed to lead and a variety of other things that definitely strike me as “confounding” factors). It’s hard to trust any study out there (personally).
However, the kids appear healthy on a somewhat meat reduced diet. I fully understand where people are coming from; I believe animals are sentient and, perhaps hypocritically, I do believe they should have rights and that it’s immoral to eat them. However, I am frequently at junctures where I have to make less than perfect choices in order to ensure survival. Though we’re trying not to be excessive, I’m much in the same boat as a lot of others in just trying to cautiously curb consumption as much as possible.
Lately we’ve really reduced our dependency on milk itself. We always got organic (and used to get it raw off of a farm before they stopped the share) – but, even with this, I know it’s not really that healthy of stuff. Finally managed to reduce our eldest son’s intake (the younger one with the supposed iron deficiency never touched the stuff – but according to the doctor could not get sufficient iron through my milk alone at this stage). But hypocritically we still eat cheese, and sometimes heavy creams. And butter. Supposedly the cows are free range grass fed but, you never know what stuff means with marketing anymore.
We’ve tried to reduce actual consumption of the meat itself though. Once every two weeks we will have an organic, grass fed roast, and every other week we will eat a wild caught salmon. Sometimes the kids eat organic turkey ham. So that’s where we are at. It’s a far cry from being perfectly ethical. But it’s still pretty reduced.
The rest of the time we eat various combinations of beans with quinoa or chana masala or other Indian-like dishes, or salads, or roasted vegetables, etc. As much unprocessed foods as possible.
I’m not a perfectly ethical person, and I’m okay with that, because my lifetime is finite, and eventually fungus will eat me. However I try very hard to find sources of animal meat that hopefully have helped to ensure the animal was not tortured during its existing life. As much as we can.
deanna says
Best resource: Brenda Davis and Gina Messina, Becoming Vegan is a comprehensive book on all essential nutrients and how you get them on a vegan or plant-based diet. Both are dietitians and long-term vegans.
Best $15 I ever spent.
Christian says
It is recommended that vegans eat more foods rich in iron because we seem to absorb less iron from plant foods. However, if you make sure you include enough vitamin c in your diet, you will absorb more of the iron you eat. I eat a lot of peanut butter, black strap molasses, and spinach, and my iron levels are great without really paying attention to my iron intake. Make sure you eat enough greens, beans, and nuts, and you will be fine as long as you don’t have some other issue that prevents you from absorbing it properly. B12 is an interesting one. I am currently supplementing with methylcobalamin to be safe, but it is the only supplement I take, since I don’t like taking supplements either, but I don’t mind taking one if that is the only sacrifice I have to make to save animal lives. Iron really shouldn’t be an issue though as long as you are eating real food and eating a reasonably varied diet. Peanut butter mixed with sweet potato is a good way to get vitamin c with your iron and it is delicious :). And even if you are worried about it, several cups of greens cooked down isn’t really hard to eat at all, so you should be fine.
Alice says
Thanks for the reply Christian! I guess…I’m kind of a numerically based person, and I want to feel “safe” but…lately I’ve been wondering if my faith in the nutritional recommendations of the normally accepted “sources” is misplaced. I mean, I always want to err on the side of caution, however I do want to follow the most ethical beliefs too, but I also have a lot of anxiety when doing something new, especially something unconventional and I tend to rely on facts and numbers perhaps a little too much. Sometimes I am able to overcome this in a leap of faith for myself, but with my children my anxiety is about 10 fold more.
I’m still at a bit of a crossroads; I’ve been trying to eat more and more chickpeas and lentils because of their high iron content. I used to do spinach and was mortified to read something about oxalates supposedly blocking iron absorption from it; I’m not really versed in biology, and interpretations always seem to be changing – and though I still eat spinach I don’t always go the greens route anymore. Ironically, I find it curious that nobody mentions ethically harvested/produced chocolate – I found out that 9 pieces of my dark chocolate was supposedly 35% of a normal person’s iron intake. It’s 71% dark (not 90, but, edible). Anyway, I’m curious about the vitamin C thing; I’m not trying to be confrontational, just curious – do you have any sources for that (I always like to look at studies, but that’s a rabbit hole as I don’t believe in fully objective studies – on either side there is a lot of confirmation bias but, if it’s a biological mechanism…perhaps it’s more objective).
Anyway, I did find something that was rather encouraging to me. I have no desire or plans to do raw foods or even fruitarian but, I saw this video about this hippie commune that was all fruitarian on youtube, and their kids were still alive and seemingly intelligent with no obvious signs of anemia. I just kept watching it and looked over my numbers in terms of daily values of essential nutrients and my mind could not process the cognitive dissonance; I kept wondering “how are these kids even alive??” And yet they were. I mean, yes, the adults were all emaciated but, the kids actually looked…not really unlike other healthy kids I meet…of course that’s just an appearance but, it did chip away a little more at my reliance on “scientific” recommendations.
I have other problems too though – a lot of familial pressure – not so much for me – I mean, I’m a full grown woman, nobody cares that much for my dietary choices at this point, but – the grandparents are on me about the B12 and they keep saying things like “oh, by the way, they’ve shown it won’t be properly absorbed in pill form” etc. etc. And I’m still at a cross roads especially with the youngest son in terms of the iron because, he literally will not eat almost anything besides the breastmilk, except here and there a couple of bites. So while I know it is murder I still give the kids a minimal amount of chicken livers, that are obtained from an organic, free range farm; I know this isn’t fully ethical, but, the organ meat at least is not really an in-demand item there, and hopefully will not really reinforce more chickens being killed than already are. I only plan on using this crutch until the kids are better able to eat the quantities necessary for full iron absorption from plants. Sometimes I eat sardines too; I know that’s bad and I agree that fish are cognizant and that it is a form of murder but, I am still very scared about the bio-availability and safety of DHA obtained from Spirulina and algal sources (even though I know for the fish it is biovailable). But I really try to keep it to an absolute minimum. I know that’s not saying much, but that’s where we are right now, though we are trying to progress to a higher state of ethics.
However, we’ve had some progress on that note. The kids seem to love the chickpeas, and my husband has started taking to them too, so, this has been really encouraging to me, as I was afraid they might eschew them all together. Also my husband almost had gotten gout (he previously ate quite a bit of meat – both at work, and some at home) – but since we switched to mostly vegetarian the pain in his foot has vanished so, it was delightful to see a health benefit pop up amidst everything.
I know where we are is not perfect, but, I think we are getting closer to an ideal, even if, we are not there yet.
Celine George says
Excuse my skimming through your comment, Alice. It’s 1:30am and I just finished watching a movie.
Let me start by saying, I’m a high carb plant based vegan. So I applaud your family’s transition to a more plant based diet. Personally, it took me 1.5 years to fully becoming vegan from a low dairy, low egg plant based diet.
I’d like to address your vitamin C issue and your B12 issue.
First off, perhaps if you’re vitamin C deficient, eat more fruits. Contrary to most instagrammers, most vegans do not eat large plates (or bowls of coconut) of fruit at one sitting. It’s time consuming, and idealistic. Personally, I make a morning green smoothie that does not taste anything remotely like greens. It’s got 22g protein, 149g carbs, 0mg cholesterol, 390% DV of vitamin A, 335% DV of vitamin C and 93% of iron. And that’s just one part of my breakfast. It’s merely 3 bananas, 4 tbsp hemp hearts (super great source of iron), 3 noor dates, 3/4 cup frozen pineapple, 1/2 cup frozen mango and 3 cups of raw spinach and one tsp of hawaiian spirulina, all blended with water. That’s it. So essentially it solves your problem with vitamin A and C (which I honest to God have never heard of vegans having issues with). And it tastes like the tropics. It’s great. I’ve asked my sisters, grandmother, parents, colleagues to try it with their eyes closed and they’re ‘always’ surprised at the vibrant green colour when they open their eyes. My sister now makes it part of her morning routine.
Secondly, I don’t take any supplements at all. I can’t stomach any iron supplement or B12 supplement that I’ve attempted to have. I recently went in for blood and urine testing, as part of an annual checkup. Everyone freaks out about B12, and I did too–I thought I was going to be deficient. My B12 levels are great (so are my iron levels), and my doctor was relieved. It’s 712 ng/L, whatever that means. The point is that it’s nowhere near deficiency. My only intake is nutritional yeast, which I just have usually twice a week in vegan mac and cheese, and quite honestly, it’s only like 4-5 tbsp that I’m ingesting at one go. I also sprinkle it on pasta and popcorn on the occasion, but mostly for taste and not for supplementarity issues.
I would strongly advise you to stop worrying about nutrients and macros blah blah until after you go for testing. I wasted so much time and effort online and in my kitchen eating foods I didn’t like months before testing. It isn’t worth it. I stopped stressing a month before testing and I didn’t have ANY issues. No iron issues, no vitamin A (that’s a right joke), D or calcium deficiency, no issues with any omegas. Just go in for testing, and see what you’re lacking. Then, enjoy your food and always keep trying (but not stressing) to do better.
Alice says
Hey thanks for the awesome and detailed reply Celine George! We’re still in the transition process – but, thank you for the cool recipe suggestion; I’ve been thinking of incorporating such type of whole foods smoothies for a while now, I may just try yours. I was really surprised about the hemp hearts – I ate them once before – had no idea they were a source of iron!
Anyway, we’re still in process – my main goal is to get to vegetarian first, and then reduce the dairy; I know this will piss people off but I’m unwilling to give up eggs (we pay quite a hefty price to get these from our local organic CSA, and, given that I’ve seen these chickens, and their egg laying ones are not the ones they sell as meats – I just don’t see the conflict of interest in eating uninseminated eggs). However, we’re still a far cry from even getting to that level, as we still eat fish once in a while, and every once in a while (I don’t know, once every two weeks) lean red meat (I know, terrible).
I guess I have only a few hesitations left on the spirulina…my husband found some website that documented some absurdly bad side effects to spirulina (which, I take in pill form from an Indian supplier, hoping to escape Fukashima radiation); I did read about the Hawaiian one but, there were a few negative amazon ratings about health problems that developed for those people, and it’s always hard to tell when thinking of taking any supplement (or, I’m imagining the raw seaweed?) whether the 3% of bad reactions is just those people’s problems or something with the plant. But I suspect this can be done without the spirulina too, not sure.
Ultimately I think you’re right about not stressing and just getting tested as…I’ve come to an increasing lack of confidence about USDA dietary recommendations. I mean, I can’t believe that they recommend a full 33mg a day of heme-iron consumption versus like 16mg for regular people. It’s like they just arbitrarily doubled it to be safe, or something like that. I don’t listen to the authorities on any other health issue so…I guess it’s weird for me to assume they are working in my best interest on this one.
I’m sure I will eventually transition over to a fully vegetarian diet that’s lower in dairy. That’s my goal for now. I’ve had some success with getting the kids to eat chickpeas in fried form (chickpea fritters) and the baby has a penchant for spinach so…hopefully this transition can happen sooner than later.
But sometime fear gets to me and I worry and give them a roast. Honestly I know that sounds terrible but it’s not more than twice a month – even though it is murder and, at least we’re reducing.
I know I will eventually overcome my fear.
Kris Mack says
Celine,
I am a recovering Paleo/Crossfitter. My cholesterol went high 225 total although my ratio was good, I gained 20 pounds and for two years my body never recovered from my workouts. I took the 23andme.com genetic test and found out I am APOE3/4. I should NOT be a meat eater but a low carb, low fat eater. Basically, I should follow Caldwell Esselstyn’s plant based theory. I also have celiac and Hashimoto’s and my father just died at 67 from CAD. I don’t want this to be my fate. I’m 5’9, 160 pounds, very fit/muscular. I started to have migraine with aura last September after this 2 year Paleo experiment and I believe I created a microvascular disease for myself through my high fat diet. UGH. I’m in my second week vegan/fat/oil free moderate carb. I’ve always had clear skin but my face has just gone crazy. Any advice (anyone) on what to expect during these early transition weeks from meat eater to plant eater? Also, anyone have any experience regarding the APOE3/4 gene? I’m going to have my cholesterol done after one month off the meat/dairy/oil to see what happens. I’d love to know if anyone else has a similar experience. I had posted here last year believing paleo was healing me but after seeing my genetic report, I realize that is not the case.
Alice says
Hey Kris,
I’m perhaps not the best person to answer your questions as I’m not fully to the point where we could be called vegetarian (we still eat red meat twice a month, and salmon once a month BUT) – aside from this we are plant based. I only wanted to comment in that, I noticed recently from my transition from relatively high meat to relatively low meat that I actually had the opposite effect – even though I had other problems, my skin, surprisingly, cleared up. Just take my experiences with a grain of salt, just wanted to add my experiences to the pile. I’ve noticed the most dramatic difference after our vacation where we did eat processed foods (including processed meats). But it did take about a week. However I also wanted to mention that my brain fog/ weird pressure that develops around my cycle lifts after eating red meat, so – I’m not saying that this is the only source of whatever I am missing but, kind of the reverse of your experience, I notice if I go prolonged periods without any meat (1.5 weeks +) I start to have head pressure, and I really don’t know why.
Anyway, hope your skin clears and that your health is optimal!
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Kris, if you are eating low carb AND low fat, AND no meat (so I assume relatively low protein as well), just what do you eat? The Esselstyn diet is not low-carb. It includes legumes, whole grains, fruit and starchy veggies.
betsey riedl says
Here’s my story. I ate a typical Western diet until I was diagnosed with stage 3.2 breast cancer at the age of 42. While going through chemotherapy, I couldn’t eat, look at, or stand the texture of chicken. So we stopped eating it. Then it was fish, beef and finally pork. In the meantime, I was researching and learning and we started eating a lot of beans and plant based recipes. That was 12 years ago. I eat a mostly vegan diet. I look and feel better than I did 12 years ago. People don’t believe I’m almost 54.
Don’t worry about those numbers. Listen to your body. LISTEN TO YOUR BODY. You’ll get plenty of nutrients if you do. And yes, I take 1 B-12 pill 1x a week.
If you want to make this switch, you’ll do it. It’s that simple. If you want to do it, stop worrying and wondering and do it.
Alice says
Thanks for the encouragement Betsey! We never really ate much pork, if any, but have also weaned off of chicken. We do eat fish every once in a while and lean beef roasts twice a month, the latter of which has been the hardest for me to break. I’m not a huge fan of salmon, but, the beef roast is absolutely the hardest thing to give up, even though I know it is also the most unethical. I’m not saying this in any way justifies it, but, I feel great after eating it, so I don’t know if I can rely on that. I know this works for some foods, like, say, a doughnut – I feel pretty bad if I eat even a small quantity of processed foods but -given that the meats we eat are unprocessed…if I rely on my physical feedback, I may never get to the optimum choice (just in my personal experience). However, I get where you’re coming from and am definitely working towards full vegetarian.
Joannie says
Try challenge 22 you will find non biased dieticians work with the group of mentors and will help you transition to a vegan diet , as well as advising you of all the myths currently out there in the world. We ve been raised with lies about nutrition so its best to understand that and know that there are billions of dollars at stake every day and the the industries are acred and will try anything. chickens are social inquisitive and intelligent creatures with lively personalities and great social structures, don’t eat them. they don’t deserve to die!
Sarah says
Alice, I just read this article. I have been a vegetarian my whole life, I breastfed without issue, I am on the low side of iron but quite strong and healthy in middle age. Hemp hearts have a considerable amount of iron, blackstrap molasses as well, I’ve never had an issue with chia seeds, egg yolks have iron if you can eat custard or flan. My husband is an omnivore, more meat than veggies, and has had to give blood at least once a year to release some iron from his system. We are all built differently. Try to feel well and take care of yourself and your little ones.
Alicia says
Check out Dr. John McDougall’s online advice for feeding babies and small children or read Disease Proof Your Child by Dr. Fuhrman. It may ease your mind. Really, meat is not necessary, is carcinogenic and just not good for you. We are so brainwashed. I started eating meat and more dairy and eggs a couple of years ago because of all this crap advice online and felt terrible (ethically and physically) until I stopped. Thanks to watching Forks Over Knives, reading Proteinaholic by Dr. Garth Davis and The Starch Solution by Dr. John McDougall, I feel free of the need to eat animal products for health reasons. It is such a good feeling.
I am breastfeeding and introducing my baby to solids. I am going with the iron fortified organic rice cereal first. (Yes, I know WAPF and Paleo people would cringe.) Maybe mixing the iron fortified cereal with other foods would help you feel more confident your baby is getting enough? According to Dr. McDougall the main reason you see iron deficiency anemia is because the calcium and casein in dairy blocks the iron absorption. Also the heme-iron found in meat is not good. Plants have the safest form of iron for our bodies.
I am actually having major regrets ever introducing meat and dairy to my older child. So hard to get it out of her diet now that she has grown accustomed to it.
As for B12, do make sure you both take a supplement. That is the one supplement recommended. Methylcobalamin is the preferred form. I take it a few times a week (5000 mcg – larger than needed) and sometimes add fortified nutritional yeast to my food.
And, really, at least read Proteinaholic. It is so well researched and just totally debunks the Paleo movement and WAPF propaganda.
Good luck!
deanna says
The higher recommended mg of iron for veg. is given by persons, who assume non-heme iron is not as well absorbed; however, if you eat legumes, grains, and maybe even some baked beans with molasses added paired with vitamin C rich veggie like red pepper or follow your meal with fruit (rich in C) for dessert you will increased your iron absorption X4 or four fold. Cooked greens and broccoli already have some vitamin C in them, but again adding fruit with them is fabulous.
Do not eat meals with tea: green, black, white, this interferes with iron absorption, but between meals is ok.
If you have heavy menstrual flow, you can also cook a couple meals a week in cast iron, pan also. But cooking in iron regularly for other members of household, who can overload on iron is not recommended. For a surprising iron rich treat, stack a chunk of dark chocolate on dried apricot! Pumpkin seeds also provide both iron and zinc in vegan diet.
But doctors, highly recommend people refrain from iron supplements unless treating anemia with dosage supervision by doctor.
Essere says
B12 is only an issue for those that don’t know how to make their own. Supplement if you don’t know.
Vitamin D deficiency leads to the deficiency of calcium, iron, zinc, the long-chain fatty acids EPA & DHA, and active Vitamin A.
1) Vitamin D increases the absorption of minerals.
2) Active Vitamin D3 -> Thyrotropin-releasing hormone -> Thyroid-stimulating hormone -> Thyroxine -> beta-carotene to active Vitamin A conversion.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8475673
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3937314
2) Retinoic acid(Active Vitamin A) -> Fatty acid desaturase -> ALA to EPA/DHA
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11414679
And you forgot Vitamin B3.
deanna says
Plant -based eaters enjoy the same vitamin D benefits from sunshine and a fortified plant milk (oat, soy, hemp, almond) or orange juice as Western and Paleo diets provide vitamin D from sunshine, fortified foods, and, for some, from fish.
Markus N says
I’m just going to leave this here:
American Dietetic Association
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.
Dietitians of Canada
A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors.
The British National Health Service
With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.
The British Nutrition Foundation
A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate … Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.
The Dietitians Association of Australia
Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.
The United States Department of Agriculture
Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.
The National Health and Medical Research Council
Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended.
The Mayo Clinic
A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.
The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada
Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.
Harvard Medical School
Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.
Lauralee says
Thanks for this info
deanna says
Thank you- love this!!!
Some, maybe not wanting to loosen the reigns on our Western diet traditions, may overemphasize potential shortfalls, like calcium, B-12, protein… in a vegan or vegetarian diet, but there is not danger of this with well-planned and executed diet with B-12 supplement and a variety of whole plant foods, including omega-3 rich seeds.
However, the deleterious effects and dangers of over conconsumption of omega 6 fats, heme iron, carnitine, choline, preformed vitamin A, cholesterol, branched chain amino acids, acid forming foods, sodium, sugar, growth hormones, estrogen, endotoxins, and AGE’s from the Western diet is finally being recognized by dietitians, and medical professionals around the world.
Ethan says
I think you can find more information about this debate, here:
http://www.analogoos.com/compare/Meat_Vegetarian
It’s very structured and easy to read.
Amber says
“Both vegetarians and omnivores in the health food store group lived longer than people in the general population…but there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups… omnivores who are health conscious live just as long as vegetarians that are health conscious.” So, what I’m reading is that a vegetarian diet is at least as healthy as a “healthy” omnivorous diet. So why not choose compassion?
Matt says
Everybody’s different, some people’s health collapses on a vegetarian diet. Those people usually then have to put their own life before animals. Unfortunately for the animals.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
The myth that the vegan lifestyle does not kill animals or adversely impact the environment is just that — a myth, and a pernicious one at that. It is based on self-delusion and an inability to examine one’s own role in the environment in an objective manner. It enables some vegans to wrap themselves in a phony cloak of self-righteousness and moral superiority from which to criticize others. It is not fact-based, and is actually a rejection of humans’ basic nature as omnivores. While the article correctly points out many well-documented potential nutritional pitfalls inherent in a vegan diet, Chris was perhaps “politically correct” in avoiding the major reason one should exercise care in adopting the vegan lifestyle — namely, the tendency to fall into a pattern of self-deception, science-bashing, and sanctimonious contempt for those that follow a different, and more reality-based, path.
Christie Delaney says
The only person with contempt for anyone here is you. What is your issue? You don’t want to be a vegan then don’t… Not sure where all your anger comes from but it’s unnecessary, boring and frankly irrelevant. You think people are misinformed or deluded for following a vegan diet. Fine. But if it makes them happy then why do you keep going on and on and on? Please find something to put all of this rage and anger into that is worth your time. You might actually make a difference in the world and that’s precisely why vegans follow their own path, not dictated by argumentative idiots on diet blogs.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Project much? I am not angry, I am just very bored with the contempt — and that is exactly what it is; go back and read the comments — that some vegans show for people that do not follow their lifestyle, or do not acknowledge them as higher beings that have the only path to compassion and enlightenment. Many vegans refuse to acknowledge the impact of their lifestyle on nonhuman animals and on the planet in general. I tried veganism at one time, but soon recognized the lack of scientific basis for some proponents’ claims that it is more healthful, less damaging to animals, and better for the planet. I’d offer your words back to you — follow a vegan lifestyle if you want, or don’t if you choose not to. But don’t use self delusion and phony science to place yourself above others that do not share your beliefs.
Kat says
It’s basically a religion. I’m saying this as an ex-vegan. I finally had to stop because no matter what I did to tweak my diet, I was feeling lethargic as well as bloated, and nauseated after I ate. I had to cut out the soy and add in some good quality animal protein so I didn’t feel depressed and crappy all the time. (and yes, before the Vegan Police come and tell me to read such and such book, I’ve probably already read it.)
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Thank you for sharing your experience. I fear you are correct about the cult aspect of veganism for some that practice it. I am also ex-vegan. I have an advanced degree in environmental science, so I thoroughly researched everything relating to the vegan lifestyle, joined a group, subscribed to magazines and newsletters and read lots of books. At the time, I was living in CA, where there was a lot of support, live and printed. I finally realized that, first, it is an unnatural diet for humans, as borne out by science; and second, the attitude of condescension toward others was unmerited, as producing plant foods results in animal deaths and environmental damage. Above all, anything that fosters an attitude of condescension and superiority toward other people is also dangerous.
Kat says
I think so. If anything, it automatically turns people off to their cause. There are a lot of ways to treat animals more humanely. I don’t believe anymore that death in general is unethical, everything dies. I do believe there are kinder ways to go about obtaining what we need. And the angry vegans generally don’t help the cause, and spread a lot of misinformation.
Amber says
Out of curiousity, when you say you added “animal protein” was that in the form of meat or eggs/dairy? I’m asking because I’m genuinely interested in both sides of the argument. I’m transitioning from a paleo diet to an “as-vegan-as-possible” diet (somewhat lenient when it comes to milk/eggs). I want to make an informed, healthy decision for myself and so far after a month I feel great. P.S. I agree with your comment that there are kinder ways to obtain meat, and yes everything dies, but killing animals when they’re several months to a couple years old is greatly reducing their natural life span. I’m not saying this from a holier-than-thou perspective, but I definitely am taking animal lives/suffering into account in choosing the best diet for myself.
Kat says
I started by adding in eggs from my friends backyard chickens, butter from grass fed cows. Then I added a little more grass fed meat and wild fish, while cutting out the soy and processed crap. Personally, I think the only ethical issue is how the animals are treated while they’re here. But that’s just me. If you want to go more vegan, and it works for you, great. 🙂 Upwards of 75% of vegans and vegetarians don’t make it more than a few years I guess, so just make sure you take supplements like iron, D3, B12 and K2 and get plenty of protein. I think part of my issue is my autoimmune disease and the fact I’m missing half a thyroid. I don’t do well on a lot of soy, carbs or beans.
Shane says
AnnieLaurie – I would love to hear you explain some of your claims. Its simple to just say things like “myth” and “not backed up by science” but can you elaborate further?
Lets put aside whether or not it is more healthful (despite the fact that based on my own study and experience it most certainly healthier to eat a plant based diet). You however reject the idea that veganism is less harmful to animals and the planet.
On what basis?
Please believe that I ask this with genuine interest.
KAT – I am sorry to hear about your thyroid but soy and beans are definitely not a massive necessity in order to be vegan. Regardless it probably doesnt matter if you have found an ethical position you are happy with. I would point out, as non aggressively as possible, (it is difficult to use calm body language in text and everything comes across confrontational), that since you do still care about animals conditions prior to death that you still should consider your contribution carefully. Butter from grassfed cows for example contributes just as much to cruelty.
Also, where did you read the 75% figure? Any study I have read into the topic (of which there are very few) has indicated that 93% – 97% of vegans stick with it. Vegetarians have similar statistics.
Leaving ethics and veganism aside you say you were eating processed crap and you cut that out. The processed crap was probably why you were feeling bloated and lethargic. Just a thought.
Finally with regards to nutrient deficiency it is common for vegans to be deficient in 3 things Calcium, Iodine and B12 HOWEVER it is common for meat eaters to be deficient in 6 things Calcium, Iodine, Fibre, Folate, Magnesium and Vitamin C.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Shane, I have posted some citations. Give me a specific on a “claim” that you think is invalid, and I will be happy to provide other references.
deanna says
Every diet has environmental impact, we all have to eat, and it all takes some amount of resources- land and carbon footprint to keep the world fed.
I agree instead of arguing so much we should try to work together on tackling the sustainability problems.
Some interesting solutions to feed the world, including those who want to include 10% or more of their diet from animal sourced foods, include overcoming obstacles to sustainable and healthy aquponics- raising fish and plants symbiotically, with little soil.
Using hydroponics, indoors in homes, cafeterias and restaurants, and use underutilized urban spaces for growing foods: rooftops, green spaces etc. vertical gardening on building surfaces.
Choosing smaller ruminants for animal sourced foods such as goat cheese, and meat patties, other than beef such as deer or elk.
But the land resources, ill effects of methane and eutrophication of lakes and rivers caused by both grass fed and FF cattle farming is substantially more taxing and destructive to the environment than farming for, easy to find/purchase organic legumes, tubers and whole grains.
And, a good scientific argument can be made that humans do not do as well on more than 10%, and certainly not more than 20%, of food calories from animal sourced foods, particularly the most taxing environmental choice- beef.
Vesper says
Animals don’t show any compassion and eat other animals, why should we feel superior to them? If I can’t meet my needs on a vegan diet without any industrial supplements, it simply means that the vegan diet is not made for humans. I used to be vegan and stopped after developping multiple sclerosis symptoms that were caused by that so called healthy vegan diet that was slowly killing me because I didn’t get any vitamin B12 for too many years and when you are B12 deficient for several years, you become extremely sick to the point the symptoms ‘fake’ multiple sclerosis, dementia, lack of memory, paralysis, etc. I don’t have any regret, and when I see nature in action, animals can be worse than humans, that’s life.
deanna says
Thank you for sharing, Vesper. There are still myths lingering about B-12 having reliable amounts in certain foods.
It is important that vegans and plant-based eaters get their B-12, and that the government tightly regulates animals being supplemented with sufficient amounts of B-12 to ensure humans get the B-12 they need.
Jonson says
Why not choose flavor?
Essere says
Pointing the finger doesn’t benefit anyone.
The reason why the world is messed up is because nobody is humble enough to admit their ignorance and are too arrogant to admit that there is great intellectuals out there; polymaths. Therefore polymaths stay quiet with their discoveries.
If you don’t have complete factual proof to support your cause; then be quiet.
Ethan says
More things to think about when considering between vegetarian:
http://www.analogoos.com/compare/Meat/Vegetarian
DaddyLovesVeggies says
*FACE PALM*
I can’t believe we are still arguing about vegan lifestyle in the year 2016, after all the proof and info dug up on the animal agriculture and their past killings of anyone who stood up against them, people are still supporting them in 2016? After all the proof found of the impact they make on this world? No one has watched cowspiracy?. How about all these other amazing info out there? Cmon people do your research. This business is worst then the tobacco and sugar industry..
Rina Grassotti says
I couldn’t agree more! #cowspiracy
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Talk about facepalm!!! When an organic rancher or farmer points out that sustainable practices for meat production can be neutral or beneficial for the environment and the world’s population, he is “obviously” a shill for the meat industry and his facts and arguments are therefore tainted by his “ulterior motives”. When vegan documentaries based on dubious and outdated “data”, such as “Forks Over Knives” and “Cowspiracy” are touted by vested interests promoting their diets, books, etc., why, how could you think they are motivated by profit? Most people are not that naive, I hope. “When you do it, you are a capitalist profit monger. When I do it, I am just acting on humanitarian principles”. Ri-i-i-i-ght.
Simon James says
Did you know that the GHG emissions of grass fed cows are 19.2 kg of CO2 per Kg live weight. The GHG emissions of feedlot cows is 14.8 kg of CO2 per Kg live weight. The GHG emissions of soya is 2 kg CO2 per Kg of soyabeans. Think about the ramifications of these numbers.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222660040_Comparative_life_cycle_impacts_of_three_beef_production_strategies_in_the_Upper_Mid-western_United_States
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-014-1169-1
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Did YOU know that enormous hers of ruminant animals roamed the earth for millions of years before man domesticated any of them, and that their flatulence never caused climate change? Did YOU know that All cattle start out foraging on grass? Did YOU read the second sentence of your second citation? It states, “The objective of this study was to estimate the difference in dietary GHG emissions between SELF-SELECTED (emphasis mine) meat-eaters, fish-eaters, vegetarians and vegans in the UK”. Any conclusions from a “self-selected” group are not generally applicable. Further, if you look at the article, there are numerous sources of emissions that were not included, so this can hardly be considered a comprehensive study. As for “estimates” of CO2 emissions, whether from grass-fed cows, grain-fed cows, of human activities, they are all over the map. The results one gets are entirely dependent on the assumptions one makes. GIGO.
deanna says
No disrespect, but I think it is safe to assume, that since soybeans do not fart or go #2, they are not releasing any methane, and have substantially lower greenhouse gas emissions, than ruminants. Their greenhouse gas emissions is mostly from energy needed to harvest, transport and refrigerate product. Which cattle products also need. Growing green beans, soy and peas in your backyard can cut this CO2 footprint even further.
And, because soybeans and legumes (green peans, peas, lentils) fix the soil with nitrogen, rather than take up nitrogen, and use free sunshine to make their food, they are going to use a lot less resources than cows, eating about 30 lbs. of dried forage (which equates ~ 60 lbs. of wet forage every single day for 2 years before slaughter).
Also, because soy fixes the soil, it creates a better nutrient packed field for next year’s crop being rotated on this same field, whether it is potatoes, kale, or wheat and no poop run off to disrupt the natural water cycle.
deanna says
Three key words you used… before domestication and ruminants, not beef cattle.
Other ruminants, sheep, goats, elk, deer being much smaller have much less impact.
If only wild cattle and ruminants were left; we cut out all domesticated cows, etc.. it would subtract a huge chunk of CO2 emissions, contributing to climate change.
Letting people only hunt wild ruminants sounds like a great idea.
Auggiedoggy says
When I was vegetarian I was putting out some serious GHG emissions myself. Now I follow a plant-based diet with modest meat consumption. You may have heard of it – the Mediterranean diet?
deanna says
This is hilarious! They do say beans, beans the magic fruit… the more you eat the more you…
I see it as a good sign I am making healthy amounts of butyrate and other beneficial microbes with all that resistant starch!
Joe Hammerdink says
Pay attention idiot. No one cares about the lives of animals. the article was about NUTRITION and how decidedly unhealthy vegetarian morons are.
Aurora Suarez says
How can you be so rude and say that no one cares about animals and the environment? You made yourself look bad not him. And highly doubt you mean those words, your a human being, I’m sure your not that heartless. And FYI vegetarian are healthiest people on the planet, as long as they do it right, they live long healthy lives.
Christie Delaney says
Wow, yes I’m SO unhealthy. I’m practically dying. There has been plenty of research into the effects of vegan diets that contradicts every single point in this article. But yes, read one thing and decide vegetarians/vegans are morons. I think you’ll find they are the people that educate themselves fully on both sides of the story and then made informed decisions about their diet and nutrition. No, it’s not all about animals. It’s also about the biggest killer on the planet – heart disease.
Simon James says
Why don’t you care about the lives of animals? Did you know that 82% of chickens bought in supermarkets have hock burns, where the ammonia in the bird droppings they are forced to live in burns right through their skin, creating open burn wounds. This figure only drops to about 40% for organic chickens. Does this not bother you? Why not? http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00071660500181149
Furthermore, did you know that 15% of cows are not made unconscious using captive bolt (the most common method used to stun cows) before slaughter http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22061934 They are still conscious as their throats are cut open. Again, why don’t you care about this?
And surely any diet we chose also has to be environmentally sustainable? A meat based diet uses twice the crop land of a vegan diet, and will in the future lead to even more deforestation to grow crops to feed to all those animals. http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160419/ncomms11382/full/ncomms11382.html
An omnivorous diet uses so much more crop land because we feed animals so much human edible crops. As the following study says regarding the animal feeds and human edibility “The proportion of edible feed in typical UK concentrate formulations ranged from 0.36 for milk production to 0.75 for poultry meat production.” So for chickens 75% of what we feed them is human edible http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S175173111100005X By going vegan all that land could be rewilded to support biodiversity.
With all this wasteful use of land and crops, and methane from cows, is there any wonder then why a meat based diet produces three times (yes that is right three times) the GHG emissions of a vegan diet ( 3.4 CO2 Gt⋅y−1 for vegan diets vs 11.4 CO2 Gt⋅y−1 for omnivorous diets) If one considers all the potential loss of life from climate change, I think we have a pretty strong set of reasons to go vegan. http://www.pnas.org/content/113/15/4146.full
Oh yes, and before you mention grass fed cows. Did you know that the GHG emissions of grass fed cows are 19.2 kg of CO2 per Kg live weight. The GHG emissions of feedlot cows is 14.8 kg of CO2 per Kg live weight. The GHG emissions of soya is 2 kg CO2 per Kg of soyabeans. Think about the ramifications of these numbers.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
You throw out a lot of allegations with no proof they are accurate. There is little science to back up your contentions. Nevertheless, I will address only two of them. Deforestation – beyond the stunning magnitude of historical deforestation that has occurred since the beginning of agriculture to produce crops to feed humans, not livestock, please do a little research on the current issues with the production of palm oil, a component of food manufacture used extensively in vegan products so as to avoid animal-based oils. Second, it is NOT necessary, nor is it desirable, to feed grains and similar foods to ruminant animals. It is an unnatural diet for them. For thousands of years, humans hunted, then raised, such animals for food with relatively minimal impact on the environment. To cite current industrial farming practices as the norm for omnivorous diets without acknowledging that they are equally the norm for the production of plant foods is self-deluding at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.
Jana says
I am not a scientist. I have no scientific background. But, as a vegan who works at an elementary school where I am exposed to viruses and bacteria daily, I am one of the very few staff members who never gets sick. When they had a blood drive, people were turned away left and right for low iron. My iron count was great. My cholesterol levels are extremely low. I am not a “health junkie “. Just average. My science is life experience and observations and the vegan diet not only saves animals lives but as a side effect has improved my own health and wellness.
Nicola says
Surely it would have been more helpful to suggest which foods to eat to combat deficiencies in these vitamins?
Joe Hammerdink says
Pay attention. He did. Those foods are called MEATS. You must be a vegetarian. Very hard to focus when you are nutrient deficient.
Christie Delaney says
Seriously, who is this guy?
“MEATS” have nutrients in them, yes. This is by no means a balanced article though. It doesn’t detail any of the adverse effects meat has on the body that outweigh the apparent nutrients you get. How about the relation between meat/dairy consumption and osteoporosis? Alternative article: Why you should think twice about being an uneducated meat eater and telling other people how to live their lives without doing any of your own research. Massive snore.
Christian says
Joe, that is probably the most ignorant comment I have read so far. The vitamins listed there are very easy to get with a vegan diet; I can’t believe he actually mentioned vitamins A and D in this article. Eat a sweet potato and freaking go outside (both are extremely cheap), problem solved. The only exception is b12, and cows need b12, but they only eat grass, so obviously there is a vegan way to get it, but supplementing is an easy way as well.
Rina Grassotti says
I also find this article to be biased. First, the article suggests we consume dairy which we all know is highly inflammatory and probably causes cancer. It’s baffling to me how our government decided to make it a “food group” and that ideology still exists today. Second, rather than point out all the difficulties with a vegan diet, this article could have instead informed people who choose a vegan lifestyle about what to watch out for in getting proper nutrition. Third, given the disastrous effect of farming on our planet, combined with the absolute cruelty that occurs to animals every single day, it is myopic and quite frankly an sadly outdated viewpoint to suggest that eating animals is acceptable, appropriate and/or necessary. I think CK has a lot of great content and viewpoints, but this one was truly disappointing.
Jen says
While that may be true in the case of conventional dairy, raw dairy, from healthy grass fed cows, is not inflammatory, nor does it “cause cancer”. CHris Kesser is and has always been a proponent of raising animals humanely, on open pasture, and avoiding CAFO produced anything. THere is a HUGE difference in the quality of dairy, just like any other food source, and how it is raised or produced.
Sweeping generalizations about an entire food group are inaccurate at best.
Rina Grassotti says
I have to disagree. Even on organic farms, there is nothing humane about impregnating cows without their consent over and over again (and even on “humane” farms, calves are taken away almost immediately from their mothers-who cry out for days for their babies; and the baby male calves are still used for veal- a direct byproduct of the dairy industry; as if that weren’t enough, when organic, pasture raised dairy cows become “downers,” they are still slaughtered in inhumane ways – often having throats slit while still conscious). How can a person possibly think that is humane? And fyi, dairy isn’t a “food group.” Dairy got classified as a “food group” in the first place as direct result of politics and lobbying. In fact, its actually quite unsettling to see how much our government (and the special interests that own it) has shaped our relationship to “food.” You can read more about that here: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/09/invented-food-pyramid/. Is raw better than factory farmed dairy? Sure, that may be true. But if you think about dairy from the most common sense perspective, it simply doesn’t make sense for us to be consuming the milk of another species – a formula loaded with hormones that are powerful messengers aimed at growing baby cows. It’s actually quite absurd for humans to be consuming it.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Was dairy identified by the government as a “food group” due to industry pressure? Sure, in part, that was a factor. That was also a major factor in identifying grains at 11 servings per day as a group. There is industry pressure on government policy for any crop (animal or vegetable). That’s a fact of economic life in a large industrialized democracy. This accusation is as silly as the one I see vegans level against dairy just as frequently, i. e., that humans don’t “need” milk. That is certainly true. It is also certainly true about ANY food, plant or animal, that you could insert in that statement in place of dairy. Humans were successful due to their omnivory. If they can’t get one food containing the nutrients they need, they can eat another. As for “humane” practices, there are vegans that claim any human use of animals is inhumane, even keeping pets. These are the folks that rail against the use of honey because, they claim, it “exploits” bees. And yet … they happily scarf up any number of bee-pollinated plant foods. Do you understand how bee pollination of commercial crops works? The bee colonies are hauled from pillar to post for intensive pollination of numerous fields during the short fertilization season for that particular crop. And don’t even get me started on the pernicious myth that a vegan diet does not result in animal deaths. That’s self-delusion at best, and intellectual dishonesty in most cases.
deanna says
Totally agree 11 servings of grains is insane, and who puts dairy as an essential when so many adults are lactose intolerant?
But I do think the 6 servings of vegetables a day is spot on.
There is a lot of improvement in recommendations, yet to be done, but at least they are finally telling people to eat their veggies, and giving people the option to include both plant proteins, and if they wish, animal proteins, as protein sources, not just consider animal sourced protein as only potential protein source in diet.
Christie Delaney says
If sweeping generalisations about an entire food group are inaccurate at best, what about all of the sweeping generalisations made here about an entire lifestyle and diet choice?
Francine says
Untrue about calcium. More and more studies show that vegetarians don’t have their calcium sucked out of their diet by meat products. In fact, vegetarian women are 15% less likely to suffer from osteoporosis. See, for example, http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1996/11/eating-less-meat-may-help-reduce-osteoporosis-risk
Marc says
I find this misleading and bias in nature, it’s important to note that most serious long term vegans are aware of these points, and make eating choices acordingly.
Amanda says
So I’m really confused. I am already sick; it’s too late for prevention. I’m suffering from congestive heart failure and getting worse. I do NOT want to go the conventional medicine route because I know it will entail toxic drugs, invasive interventional procedures and possibly surgeries. So I’ve been searching for a dietary solution and come across Dr. Dean Ornish, et al and finally bought Dr. Fuhrman’s “End of All Heart Disease – Eat to Live” book because it was most recent and had a slightly less restrictive approach. But it’s full of eat beans, and approves of soy and other red flags, so now I’m just confused. He claims to be able to reverse heart disease with this diet, but I don’t know if I can even manage such a restrictive regime for a couple of weeks let alone the rest of my life. I’d sure appreciate any opinions and insights.
Matt says
http://jeffreydachmd.com/how-to-reverse-heart-disease-with-the-coronary-calcium-score/
Also look into vitamin K2, which is required to remove calcium build ups from arteries and soft tissue where it shouldn’t be.
Elizabeth says
Can I be honest with you? If you really wanna tacele your heart disease you’d be willing to do anything to LIVE, including a strict diet. The plant based diet for heart disease is strict can enjoyable, it removed anything that can inflame the heart, including meat and dairy. I know it sounds hard but you can do it I know you can. Find a doctor near you who specializes in plant based nutrition, so you can get started, educted, and monitored. Try to do some research first.
Dana says
Hi Amanda, I can feel your frustration and worry, and I’m so sorry. You need to go with your gut – in both a spiritual/emotional sense and practical sense – meaning that how your body is digesting the food you eat makes a world of difference. I would suggest a Functional Diagnostic Nutritionist practitioner who can run some lab tests and work with you to determine what diet is best for your body, rather that trying to sort through dogma. Food may taste good, but that doesn’t mean it won’t stress out your body.
Abuawad,Robert says
It is a mineral defficiency, easy cake. Google Dr Wallach or Dr Glidden.
Go for it…
Tito
Susan says
Amanda, I’ve heard Ketogenic diets may be able to help.
Luci says
Look at wheat belly book from Dr Davis
deanna says
One caveat on Dr. Davis.
When Dr. Ornish took the track your plaque test, through Dr. Davis, his score was zero. This told me a lot.
Dr. Esselstyn who is turning 83, is on no medications and has enviable blood pressure and cholesterol readings- most men his age are on multiple medications to treat their advanced atherosclerosis.
Though less processed foods on Dr. Davis’s plan is definitely helpful, his use of eggs, bacon, dairy etc.. still put atherosclerotic plaque in the human body. LDL cholesterol are the bricks of heart disease.
Dr. Davis did improve his own HBA1C levels, but he has not documented reversed heart disease in anyone. Dr. Ornish and Dr. Esselstyn have.
Michelle Buckley says
Just eat real food and avoid synthetic additives. It’s simple… If you can make it in your kitchen then it’s real… If it requires a laboratory then it’s not real. Make sure the animals and their products were raised on their natural diet and were not confined. Make sure the animals are outside all day. Just choose food and avoid chemicals and you’ll heal!
Christie Delaney says
Read The China Study – particularly the sction on the reversal of heart conditions.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Ah, that would be the discredited China Study and its conclusions based on cherry-picked data. Better to look at some more recent and more objective analyses.
fiona says
Hi Amanda, check out Dr John Bergman on youtube. ypr in your specific problem and see what comes up -he is absolutely excellent on so many topics and gets results where noone else does
deborah ann cambria says
http://hypothyroidmom.com/86-year-old-mans-congestive-heart-failure-resolved-with-thyroid-treatment/
deanna says
Cutting out the animal products and oils on these diets can be a real challenge at first. Taste preferences change. Fruit, crunchy green salads, a warm bowl of oatmeal with cinnamon and flax, all are enjoyed immensely. Believe it or not, my bok choy and kale with balsamic is one of my favorite things to eat. A black bean, salsa and corn tortilla taco with chia seeds and a glass of white or red wine is not deprivation.
If I were you, I would research Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, also.
In my lay persons’ , humble opinion, your best best is to sign up with Dr. Ornish program or Dr. Esslestyn at Cleveland Clinic without delay. Dr. E and Dr. Ornish program doctors and dietitians will work with your cardiologist to set up a treatment plan best for you.
Jorge Viso says
http://i.imgur.com/Ucu1s7A.jpg
Jorge Viso says
Eating HIGH QUALITY animal products (WHOLE ANIMAL) has changed my life exponentially. I have struggled with adhd, sleep apnea, and severe anxiety my entire life. Before I recently began to use logic and eat animal foods, I was on a strict vegan diet and boy was that a mistake. I remember not even being able to meditate because my brain was so STARVED, crushing depression and anxiety made it impossible to focus. I’m surprised I didn’t end my life. On the flip side, I now enjoy little to no anxiety, full focus, and general tranquility. I eat the whole animal, FULLY fermented grains, raw dairy, yadda yadda yadda. It’s freaking awesome. It’s INCREDIBLE how much of a difference these REAL foods have made. My IBS is GONE. My schizo-like symptoms are GONE. I am free at last.
Jeff says
That’s unfortunate, did you try supplements before going back to animal products? What do fermented grains have to do with anything? Also I would be careful of raw milk, it’s a primary carrier of Salmonella, E. coli, and Listeria.
Michelle Buckley says
Good comment here!
Adam says
Im new to Veganism and so am very interested with the above article. Im still learning about a balanced diet but from people i have met and things I’ve read it is my understanding that there is sufficient calcium in many vegan foods including something as common as soy milk? In terms of protein the issue is not in getting insufficient levels but in fact too much, which leads to health problems. The question i would have in terms of the research behind the article is who is funding it?
Mel says
This has been written by a guy who is a diet entrepreneur – not a doctor. All vegans know they need to supplement B12 which is a tiny price to pay for all the benefits. B12 is a simple squirt of a spray once every few days or so. And it’s tasty. This article, as sound as it might seem, has a commercial agenda – aka Paleo pushing. Paleo has been scientifically debunked by highly regarded academics. Deets on the author Chris are here: https://chriskresser.com/about/
Christian says
I highly recommend sweet potatoes in a vegan diet 🙂 I constantly eat them, and if you add some fat (I use either nuts or avocados, and they are really good mashed with peanut butter) it increases the absorption of beta carotene, which means more vitamin a. Also, they are freaking delicious! 🙂
Celine George says
Adam, you are absolutely right. There is as much calcium in your average soy milk and almond milk as in cow’s milk. Cheers on switching to veganism! Your body will thank you. Just remember to consume B12 (supplementation sprays or as I do, nutritional yeast) and you’ll be A-OK. This article is a piece of crap, and it doesn’t seem like the author has done enough research on veganism or vegetarianism to come to the conclusion that we should all be consuming animal cruelty and supporting even worsening environmental degradation (stfu trolls, most everything we do contributes to environmental degradation) by consuming dairy, eggs, and other animal products.
Elizabeth Negrom says
It doesn’t matter if a vegan diet is good or bad for you.. killing animals or any living sentient being just so you can survive knowing in your heart there’s another way to eat to survive is selfish. Point blank, end of discussion . . Vegan is a lifestyle not just a diet.. point blank, end of discussion
Matt says
That’s exactly what I thought, and after 7 years of vegetarianism my health was awful, getting the flu every couple of months, regular cold sores and muscle strains that wouldn’t heal.
Going Paleo has really restored me and given me far greater energy levels and made me realise how little my notions of whats right and wrong have to do with my body being effectively nourished.
Elizabeth Negron says
Vegetarian?.. Why didn’t you just go vegan? Vegetarians consume a lot of dairy, dairy makes you sick. Paleo lifestyle doesn’t consume dairy. Maybe you just feel better because of the dairy out of your system. Don’t blame it on the vegan diet. I went vegan at first just for my health and it saved me, my kids, and my family. We where morbidly obese. And 1 year later, where 78 pounds less, and healthier then ever. You just have to do your research before jumping into any lifestyle. ALL DIETS come with good and bads, including paleo, vegan, and most definitely the standard American diet. It’s up to you to make the best of your diet aND lifestyle. My vegan lifestyle has opened my eyes not only to the animal cruelty, but the lies our government and food industry’s poison they put in our food, it’s taught me to be conscious of my food. And we can all agree paleo and vegan are amazing just for that reason alone.
Christie Delaney says
Totally agree. I was vegetarian for about two years. Getting terribly sick, developed IBS, stress, anxiety, poor skin. It was a bad time in my life despite feeling like I was doing good for the planet. I became vegan about a year ago and I have never felt better. I never expected that removing the dairy and eggs would make such a significant difference to how I feel. I would, and do recommend it to everyone I know.
Elizabeth says
This is true. That’s one thing no one can argue about, is the bad affects of dairy products on the body.. I just read a study on the okinawa’s. They live so long, look into there diet, research. It’s amazinf, the longest people living on earth in Japan, and they never consume dairy products. And are mostly plantbased. There high intake of fish makes the old people
E so active even in there old age. Too bad all the fish in toxic now unlike back then, but they consume a lot of seaweed and rice and vegetables and miso… 80% plant based. They only ate pork only on special occasions and rituals. The considered it to be a luxury..
AnnieLaurie Burke says
And just where do you get “That’s one thing no one can argue about, is the bad affects of dairy products on the body”?? And you laughed when another commenter wrote that “Vegans generalize too much”? People certainly can, and do, argue that your grossly inaccurate generalization is just that — grossly inaccurate. (I won’t even go into the grammatical and spelling errors, which certainly do not add to your credibility). Dairy can be a healthful dietary component for people that do not have a sensitivity to lactose. Like any other food, any dairy products you consume should be made without the use of hormones, pesticides, and other unnecessary and extraneous inputs.
Elizabeth says
So let me get this straight.. you read through my entire comment right, and decided to cherry pick my Grammer and sense of writing, seriously? And FYI ALL DAIRY PRO DUCTS CONTAIN HORMONES IN IT, ORGANIC, OR FACTORY ALIKE. Weather it’s artificial injected, or naturally present in baby cows milk, it has hormones in it. It’s meant to turn a baby cow into a 400 pound female cowl in 8 months. Just google it, “does organic or unpasteurized milk contain hormones in it” and do your research. Why don’t you try this experiment for me. Drink a glass of Milk, whatever organic or factory, 4 times a day for 8 months right, then come back and let us know if it don’t make you gain at least 200 pounds.. I might not can’t write as good as you, but I don’t need to be smart and articulate to know what’s good or bad for my body.. pfft.. burrrrnnn..
Elizabeth says
Oh and another thing. You seriously think that the entire world can be fed on organic milk? I’m from Philly. The REAL GHETTO part of philly. And everyone I know tell me they can’t afford organic and pasture fed meat. The majority of Americans can’t afford that kind of meat and dairy luxury. They buy the worst stuff. And it’s killing them. Just one gallon of grassfed unpasteurized milk to feed a family of only 4 (cause where I’m from, our families our bigger then that, and we need to feed a lot of mouths) is around like 14 dollars. Our food stamp average is only 500 for four people to eat a month. All other monthly earnings go to rents and utilities . An average American family of 4 goes through a gallon of Milk every 5 days. You do the math. That kind of mindset on this fantasy of grassfed, unpasteurized organic milk would only bed affordable to 20% of the population, while the other 80% are on food stamps or midclass-to poverty level.
Elizabeth says
I just committed 4 hours of my life to put myself back in the mindset of a dairy eater. I tried look for ways of how milk can be healthy. Take this into consideration. I am a vegan, and believe ethical reasons of consuming dairy is just plain wrong. See I know how bad all milk is for you. But I never researched thoroughly raw, unpasteurized milk. And I’ve come to the conclusion that possibly the only way that this dairy may possibly be healthy for anyone, is if it is fermented. When you ferment it, say like in cheese, you let it age to at least 50 days, the micro naturally produced breaks down the harsh protien and hormones naturally present in milk. So it will make it easier for human to digest it. So MAYBE that’s a little bit healthier. Drink raw milk aka risk of listeria, especially of mixed with pasture milk. But you can’t drink fermented milk. And now that I think of it, the father’s of cheese( french, one of the first inventors of cheese) didn’t believe in drinking milk, they knew the way it was was bad to drink, so they made cheese. The cheese we have now is nothing near the cheese that was aged and created hundreds of years ago. Fermented old cheese is the only thing I would support for a dairy ingester. Say this person gets his own cow, mills his own cow, takes care of there cow, and cows baby. Makes there own old cheese like our ancestors. THEN I would support fermented cheese. But I know that’s never gonna happen on a large scale basis. So back to the vegan min set of cheese is bad. Know why?? Because modern cheese and dairy IS BAD..
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I am sorry, but your rant makes no sense and is without any scientific basis. You “spent 4 hours” to “put yourself in the mindset of a dairy eater”??? Obviously, you did not. Your biases and your erroneous beliefs prevent you from doing so. Your statements lack any scientific basis. You go on about hormones, but it is obvious that you do not understand what hormones are, what foods may contain traces of them, and how that might affect humans that consume them. Try googling phytoestrogens. And you are totally off the mark in your assertion about modern cheeses. It is not true that modern cheeses bear no resemblance to cheeses of days gone by. While their is certainly a lot of mass-produced junk cheese out there (and the same is true of any plant-based food you can buy), there are also literally hundreds of artisan cheeses that are traditionally crafted. Many people even make their own cheeses — several universities here in the Pacific NW offer cheesemaking classes. And I won’t even address your assumption that all milk comes from cows. You are, by your own admission, a vegan with a certain set of beliefs. Belief is not fact. It is not science. Beliefs, unlike opinions, are also impossible to “suspend” to put yourself into another “mindset”. If you don’t want to use dairy products, fine. That’s your choice. But you are only further destroying your credibility by such a fact-challenged rant as this.
Elizabeth says
The SAME PLACE you research your info, is the same way I research mine. Google, books, and others who are smarter then me and willing to educate me. Why do I need to post links for you to believe me, I don’t see you doing that? Because it’s so sole, you don’t have to be a genius to know that fermented food is better for your body. And you don’t have to be a genius to know that if you want to research the truth, if you know where to look for it, you can find it. You are biased, and so am I. Except I admit it, and I was nice enough to drop the bias and try to put myself in your shoes to justify dairy consumption. But your not open minded at all. You Nick pick any info you want to slander and make someone look bad to make your argument valid. You need to take a chill pill and take a step back and try to drop the bias like I did and and try to look at everything in our view like I tried for you..
Agatha says
I’m not sure why you think that you can’t drink fermented milk? Of course you can. Millions of people do it every day and have been doing so for millennia. Also, man started making cheese not because he knew that milk is bad but as a way of preserving food. Cheese keeps for longer and it travels better than milk.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Thank you for your sanctimonious closed-mindedness! I am sure that will settle the discussion.
Jason says
No it’s not always selfishness. Some people need meat to be healthy. There are even some that have an emotional need to meat. not all people who like to eat meat hate animals and don’t care about their well being, it’s jus that they also need to take care of themselves
Loobieloo says
What a lot of people do have a deficiency in on here is serotonin. Serotonin is what we call will power or impulse control. To keep answering people who obviously make you angry is not a sign of a sane and balanced person. Not being able to stop arguing back and forth shows a lack of control (lack of serotonin) and you are far from logical. A sane person would not give two hoots what someone thinks of their diet and other than advising others a sane person would not post messages on any site like this. Round and round thinking ( like people get when trying to sleep at night) is caused by low serotonin, as is a preference or tendency to do anything over and over (our brains cannot do much else repetitively whilst trying to sleep other than thinking and cannot sleep with low levels of serotonin so raises its serotonin level by round and round thinking/posting on websites and not being able to stop.
So hmmm. I think I’d look at my diet again if this was me. Especially as serotonin is very easily raised with a vegan diet.
Cynthia Peters says
That’s an interesting note about serotonin. Thanks for sharing. Those types of comment wars make me laugh. xD
Affy says
I would add that by clicking on the links you will find that the “proof” is written by vegetarian advocates, one even having written “Nutrition and Wellness: A Vegetarian Way to Better Health”. My suggestion is to avoid all sites that have something to sell. Even the veggie ones. Try Nutritionffacts.org. Information from non profit doctor analyzing articles on nutrition.
Agatha says
Hmmm. Actually it’s the other way round – a whole food omnivore diet is good for your serotonin levels.
Janelle says
If anyone is interested in a vegan or vegetarian diet, something that has cleared up alot of misunderstanding for me is the 80/10/10 diet book by Douglas Graham. Also his site is pretty good too. My opinion is that not all diets considered “vegan” are actually helpful.
Richard says
A little common sense goes a long way in many areas, including nutrition. So you really think a diet of sawdust and ketchup that is certainly vegan might not be healthy?
I never heard of anyone supporting a vegan diet without some details as to what is suppose to be consumed on a daily basis, did you?
I call my diet a whole plant-based diet….which of course is vegan but unlike the poorly written article above claims, it does not include unfined anything, be it oil, grains or what have you in cans, jars and plastic wrap….
In the past I thought consuming wild salmon a couple times a week would be good but some time back I changed my mind and dropped that last bit of animal protein.
Most of the blah, blah in the article is just a diversion. Facts show that whole plant-based diets lead to a healthier and longer life. It is not necessary to be vegan but a significant reduction in animal protein compared to the Western Diet is…
However, I am not trying to convince you of anything. You are going to do as you wish and like most people you will end up a burden on the taxpayers.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Could you share with the readers some citations for your “facts” and for your contention that people that consume meat end up disabled on public assistance?
Janelle says
The number 1 rule to go by is: What would it be like naturally and try to figure it out and stick to it, even if it goes against the grain. As a result, things should eventually start to make sense. There is so much confusion about the way we should live, but following the way we were meant to be like will give us happiness.
Anonymous says
I was thinking of becoming vegan due to the unacceptable cruelty on farms, but I have done research and found that it is near impossible to get sufficient amounts of all necessary vitamins and minerals on a vegan diet without supplements, a whopping 92% of vegans are deficient in B12. Proponents of veganism claim it to be healthier than any other diet, but a diet cannot be healthy if you need supplements to follow it, for a diet to be healthy you need to be able to get everything you need naturally, any diet on which supplements are required is not a good option. I have nothing against vegans, in fact I admire their commitment to animal rights, which are very important, and I wish I had the willpower to do it.
Janelle says
You are right that any diet that has to have supplements to complete it is not perfect, but plants can potentially supply everything except b12(that naturally comes along with our food as dirt) IF the soil they are grown in is as healthy, mineralized, and live as it can be. It’s no secret that our planets’ soils have been terribly depleted. If one is devoted to following the design for life, there is nothing to lose except bad health.
michael says
Exactly. If we drank from untreated stream water and plants directly from healthy soil, that’s where we would get our b12. Most factory farm animals are supplemented with b12, too, because they eat processed foods and don’t make enough on their own. So when we eat their muscle, we’re just consuming the supplements they’ve been given.
Jmarra says
Untreated stream water is likely to give you dysentery and even cholera. Not very healthy. The whole “we can get B12 from dirt” is rather ignorant. How MUCH dirt?
Kelly says
FYI, The world’s largest body of nutrition professionals, the American Dietetic Association (now the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics) put out a 2009 position paper stating: “appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.” http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/2009_ADA_position_paper.pdf
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Would that be the same ADA whose conventions and continuing ed are underwritten by Coca-Cola and other junk-food industry firms? Not so sure I’d accept them as the last word on anything dietary.
Tim says
The “unacceptable cruelty on farms” you refer to is a media agenda myth. I farm and raise beef and know of no one that is cruel to the animals that provide a living for them. Their may be one in a million, the same with the treatment of pets and children. If you choose to not eat meat, fine, but falsely accusing a whole group of good people is not fine.
Christian says
I think as long as someone is eating real food on a vegan diet they will be fine. I am a very healthy vegan, but I know people who eat a lot of oreos, meat substitutes, and other processed crap, and they are not as healthy. Personally I think what he mentioned about vitamin a is very strange, since I don’t think it is difficult at all to eat a sweet potato or a couple cups of kale a day if one is actually eating real food. The only exception is vitamin b12, which I supplement with, but that is due to our crappy farming practices, not nature. Cows need b12 (yes, they produce some of it in their stomachs, but so do humans), and they get all they need naturally from grass. Personally, I am vegan because I believe that torturing and/or killing for convenience is wrong, but I know there are people who believe that they need meat and dairy to survive and be healthy, and if that is why someone does it, then I see nothing wrong with it.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Thank you, Christian, for being the voice of reason. While I respect your intent to spare animals, vegans need to stop deluding themselves and realize that producing vegetable crops kills animals, destroys habitat (which kills animals indirectly and by slow, agonizing processes as compared to butchering), and, unless you are consuming organic exclusively, leads to poisoning of the environment with toxins (which also kill animals). I know vegans that will sanctimoniously condemn the use of honey as “exploiting” bees, yet they don’t see the irony in eating many bee-pollinated crops. Those are produced by hauling bee colonies from pillar to post during production seasons, and is more stressful and exploitative of the bees than taking some of the honey (which is usually produced in quantities far beyond the insects’ needs). BTW, industrial production of a large number of vegetable crops involves the use of pesticides that are killing bees in large numbers. for those that are completely honest and realistic, ALL human food choices have environmental impacts.
Kindall says
Veganism is about causing the least amount of harm possible. Yes many small rodents are killed in the harvesting of plants and forests are cleared which results in hurting animals BUT you do realize that as a meat eater you are resulting in 10x amount of the damage? The animals you eat need to eat right? Cows eat around 25 POUNDS of food every day, usually grains, corns, soy, or a mixture of the three. And are usually around 14 to 16 months old before slaughter. You want to do the math? Animal agriculture is also the leading cause of deforestation. If you wanna factor in the animals directly killed for your consumption, the animals killed in the 10x (at least) rodents and other small animals in harvesting of crops, 10x as much deforestation so 10x as many wild animals, the animals killed in the testing of your makeups, the animals that die of exhaustion and malnutrition in your zoos, circuses, and fairs, and the animals killed for your leathers and furs, I’d say that vegans still do the least amount of harm to animals. So quit bringing up these things as if we don’t already know them in an attempt to make it seem as if you aren’t that bad.
Pat says
Vegans generalize to much. Not everyone mistreats animals. I know personally that not all zoos and circus’ mistreat there animals. While they may not have as big of an environment to roam around they have a meal everyday they have vets that look after them they are treated with love and respected as one of the family. Just because you heard of this one time doesnt mean that you should condemn everyone it means you should try and change the minority’s behavior.
Me says
Vegans generalise too much… Brilliant
This Comment Section is for Dummies says
Ironic indeed
Christie Delaney says
I love when animal eaters become vegetable rights activists. Out of interest, what do you think those animals eat? Have a little google and come back campaigning for broccoli when you find out how much cows eat.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Where do you get “vegetable rights”? It is puzzling that some (not all) vegans, who like to flaunt their self-assigned status as animal-rights advocates, are either too self-deluded or too intellectually dishonest to acknowledge their own impact on the environment. If they were truly interested in promoting sustainable food production practices, they would examine their role in environmental degradation and animal suffering, and work with everyone trying to feed the world’s human population in a way that is most healthful for both humans and the rest of the planet. Of course, that would mean some painful self-scrutiny and the loss of their phony pedestal of moral superiority. I suppose it’s too much to expect for the emperors to admit they have no clothes. At least, most of the readers of this blog know that said vegans also have no science.
Irma says
Wow, Laurieanne is one frustrated woman
Steafan says
A quick side note, I read the comments to further improve my understanding of the subject matter. However it seems to me that a boat load of these people are using false credentials and sound like pretentious yahoos. Correct me if I am wrong. I would also like to introduce the caveat of athleticism and performance of said athlete on a well established vegan diet and how that’d affect the individual. I am asking a question as an ignorant 19 year old that would like to know more. Those are the only credentials I have to offer.
Katie says
It’s really easy to get all the vital nutrients you need on a vegan diet. As far as B12 goes… B12 comes from soil, and animals eat that soil and that’s how it ends up in animal products… and the reason vegans need to supplement today is because our ancestors would naturally get it from drinking creek water and eating produce with small traces of dirt on it. Other than that… the only reason our ancestors ate meat was during the winter when there wouldn’t be enough fruits and vegetables available so they had to eat meat in order to get the nutrients they needed. In today’s world in our country we have plenty of lentils grains. fruits, and vegetables all year long so it is not necessary. 🙂 Go to Netflix and watch vegetucated you’ll learn a lot! Made me start to transition into veganism.
EM says
Only eat meat in the winter? We evolved in the tropics. And moved whrn food was unavailable.
Affy says
To have an accurate idea of human evolution i suggest “Sapiens”.
Kindall says
B12 is actually a bacteria and is usually always injected into the animals. If you aren’t a big fan of taking supplements or often forget (like i do) I really suggest nutritional yeast! When added into recipes it tastes like cheese and is a great source of B12!
Aimée says
There are vegan athletes — even vegan bodybuilder’s. A vegan diet means you have a slightly slower recovery time (I have heard — I have not physically read the scientific papers myself), which is obviously far from ideal, but, apparently manageable for at least some individuals given there exist athletes that manage to compete and stay vegan.
Lucas says
All the nutrients you mentioned and all the potential benefits of eating meat can in fact be sourced on vegan diet (with a few supplements added in).
Check out this article here: http://herohealthroom.com/2016/02/17/benefits-of-eating-meat-vegan-diet/
Jen says
B12 deficiency is especially common in vegetarians and vegans.
This is false, it’s more common among meat eaters. I’m not the best vegan and got my blood tested and b12 levels were great. It’s not hard to maintain at all, so many things are fortified with it. Even meat is supplemented with it
Andy says
You could still be deficient as blood serum tests for B12 are pretty much worthless unless you are at an absolute critical level of b12. There is plenty of information about this out there (Also see Methylmalonic Acid test) Another thing is your body recycles B12 but due to some genetic traits some people recycle at a much lower percentage so even on a meat diet these people will become deficient. On a vegan diet they would become deficient even quicker.
Kinga says
Jen, thanks. Does anyone know where the above numbers come from? I haven’t found one study that says that vegetarians in general have lack of B12. I would just really like to see the studies. Imagin country were being vegetarian is just common. In India there are whole communities that haven’t eaten meat ever.
Anonymous says
http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/176565
wx says
If we take your word at face value you still didn’t stated if you supplement with b12 or not, which may be why your levels are supposedly alright. Secondly, it’s anecdotal at best, that’s why studies have at least a few people as a sample size, in order to mitigate individual variations. Finally, there’s plenty of literature that points to deficient intake of b12 amongst vegans and vegetarians, just google what plants have actual b12 vitamin and you’ll see why.
Cynthia Peters says
A lot of meat-eaters nowadays eat the SAD diet, which is going to make them deficient in a lot of nutrients.
Cynthia Peters says
Also, this reply was meant for Jen, above. Somehow it didn’t post correctly. My apologies.
Notasheeple says
That is why you take an organic multivitamin supplement and make sure its not synthetic. If you want to campaign consuming meat, eggs, and dairy. Please make sure you do extensive research before stating a weak argument. Other than that your argument in my opinion is nothing but irrelevant. GO VEGAN!!!!
Trevor says
If you have to take vitamin supplements to stay healthy, you can’t say that your diet is great. The best diet gives you what you need without additional supplements.
MikeG says
agree 100%.
kayla says
and this is why most meat eaters take multivitamins, their diets typically lack in greens.
Carter says
“Most meat eaters take multivitamin” No, no they do not.
Edward says
Appeal to nature fallacy galore. ranchers have to feed their cattle synthetic b12 because of modern farming practices, what’s natural about factory farming?
AnnieLaurie Burke says
While there is certainly nothing natural about factory farming/ranching, it’s inaccurate to state that that ranchers have to supplement their cattle with synthetic B-12 due to “modern farming”. Supplementation can become necessary if the cattle get insufficient cobalt in their diets to manufacture cobalamin. All cattle start our free-ranging on grass. Soils in these grazing lands vary widely in their mineral content naturally; some minerals may be “deficient” in the cattle’s diet because they were never present in the grassland soils to begin with. It has nothing to do with their depletion by “modern farming”, as these grazing lands were never suitable for, or used for, farming.
deanna says
I think they mean modern farming, in terms of having to give the animals treated/ chlorinated water, most grazed animals are getting a water supply in their water tank that is treated, so has no B-12 in it.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
You make these assertions with absolutely no substantiation whatever. Most cattle operations, yes, even those factory-farming, CAFO-ridden ones, are not in urban areas. They depend for their water on wells, rainfall, and surface waters. The water is not treated. The well water pumped, generally by wind power (because there are no other utilities) from aquifers. Seldom are treated, municipal supplies available for livestock. Check out http://water.usgs.gov/edu/wulv.html
Janelle says
It’s very true you should get all your nutrients from food, but it is only as healthy as the soil and environment it came from.
Kim says
I have been vegetarian for 16 years, and a vegan for 5. When I was just a vegetarian, I was slightly anemic (during that time I probably ate more processed foods than I should have). Since going vegan a little over five years ago, and eating a predominately whole foods, plant based diet, I have had ZERO issues. The only supplement I take is B12 (which by the way is naturally obtained from the soil, we just wash our vegetables so well now that it is lost). I honestly don’t even take it religiously. During my physicals the last two years, I specifically asked the doctor check for common deficiencies claimed to be an issue in vegan diets (such as calcium, protein, iron, B12, folic acid…). My levels are absolutely perfect. I actually am on the higher end for calcium, iron, and folic acid- without taking any supplements. You can absolutely get the nutrients you need to live a perfectly healthy life eating solely a plant based diet. We are the ONLY species who consumes the milk of another animal after the infant stage, by the way. Does anyone really think that nature intended a completely different species to provide us milk that is only produced naturally when they are pregnant or have a baby themselves? Not freaking normal.
annielaurie98524 says
Well, I am not going to bilk you of your change by asking you to bet that no other animal consumes the milk of another species, as I have (figuratively) done with other vegan-vegetarian commenters on other blogs. I’ll just refer you to “Relentless Enemies: Lions and Buffalo”, a National Geographic bood by Dereck and Beverly Joubert. This is the husband and wife team that has done many NG documentaries on African wildlife. They’ve also documented that lions will consume the milk from nursing buffalo they kill. Predators in Nature must be opportunistic feeders, and don’t let any good protein resource go to waste. While milk from other species does not form a large part of nonhuman animals’ diets, it is inaccurate to say that only humans consume non-species milk.
The ability to digest lactose was, after all, a spontaneous genetic mutation in some human populations — again, Nature’s way of utilizing available resources. OTH, there was no spontaneous natural mutation to address consumption of tofu and other processed foods, which are not consumed by nonhuman animals. You are on rather weak scientific ground arguing against a food because it is not consumed by nonhumans.
Richard says
What you or anyone else thinks is normal does not influence my diet choices. I do not consume any dairy based on studies available to everyone but the fact is that nutritional science really does not know much of anything for certain yet and I am not going to be around in 100 years when they will likely have many more answers.
So I can not say for certain that consuming very little meat, eggs , dairy and fish is the way to go but I will stick to it likely for the rest of my life…
Kinga says
Thanks Kim. I agree. Never ate meat in my life. Grew up like that. No issues. Do drink milk sometimes. Just love it, but don’t think that it is good for any of us.
Kinga says
Dear Kim, thank you for your comment. I have ever consumer meat even as a child I didnt want it. Had to vomit when I was forced during my teenage years after our GP said that it would be better for me. Thankful everyone understood that I just don’t need it and obviously my body neither. Now after many years I am more familiar with Ayurveda and understand that people are different and not everyone should eat meat, not everyone should be vegan or shouldn’t consume milk or meat. Everyone is different. I am not taking any additional vitamins. Look way younger than most of my friends same age. I feel good and have no issues. Eating meat is just comfortable for most people. We don’t have to be extrem about everything but really think about what you eat and what the supermarkets offer us.
Leah says
Yes I am the same. Since transitioning from vegetarian to vegan my iron levels and calcium levels have improved and are now optimal. My blood pressure is also great. I don’t take any supplements, and I live a pretty normal life, working in the city, going out to dinner with friends etc. it’s a low maintenance lifestyle
Kinga says
After reading the these comments, I got curious and went to see my doctor and got all excessive test. Never had meat in my life and literally all my levels are perfect. No deficiencies at all!!!!!!!
Gabriel says
Kim says: “We are the ONLY species who consumes the milk of another animal after the infant stage.” I don’t think that is true. Many animals (carnivorous or omnivorous) would eat milk if they would have access to eat. My grandma’s cats were always eating milk. My mom’s dog has no problem eating cow milk. We as animals on this planet we would eat anything that provides nutrients to survive the next day. Well I agree that we are taking it form another species in an unfair, unmoral way. But we can for sure drink milk and we are not the only one who would do it. Same with eggs.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Gabriel, you are absolutely right. Such behavior in wild predators has been documented when their victim happens to be a lactating female. The milk is a nutritional bonus. Nature lets nothing go to waste. Beverly and Derek Joubert (National Geographic wildlife researchers) have documented in their excellent book (and video) “Relentless Enemies” lions in the wild doing this with buffalo they have killed. One could make equally silly statements that “humans are the only animal that does X” about any number of things. And even if the erroneous statement about the milk of other species were true, what does that prove? Only that we are smart enough to exploit another resource in the contest for survival. BTW, the ability of many humans to easily digest the milk of other species is a mutation that occurred naturally, in response to this nutritional resource becoming more readily available.
toni says
So ridiculous when vegetarians say that “humans are the only species to drink another animal’s milk.” When would a wild animal get a chance to drink another species’ milk? Likely never though would lap it up if given the opportunity.
I can say that my cat loves grass fed cow and goat milk and drinks it daily.
Richard says
Do more for your long term health by looking at the five Blue Zones and how they eat…
annielaurie98524 says
Like the China Study and many other supposedly objective evaluations of diet, the Blue Zones cherry picks data, oversimplifies actual dietary practices, and is by no means a rigorous or scientific analysis. You can easily google the numerous commentaries pointing out the shortcomings in Buettner’s book. While Buettner is an accomplished athlete and author, nowhere in any of his promotional materials is there a mention of any medical or science qualifications. Draw your own conclusions from that.
Richard says
No doubt, all those people in Okinawa claiming to be over 100 are really only 18 and the disease stats from Japan are fake!
But I only lived in Okinawa for four years so you probably know much more about it than I do so enjoy all that meat, eggs and milk while you can!
annielaurie98524 says
You vegan types are really amusing. I am really beginning to believe that your dietary deficiencies affect your reading comprehension. First of all, I said nothing whatsoever about your experience in Okinawa, nor about the Okinawan diet itself. Get yourself a little protein snack, some vitamins B-12 and D, and re-read what I wrote. Buettner is trying to sell books and his diet packages. The defects in his work have been documented by many credible researchers — it’s not just my opinion. I actually like his books, and I think he does a lot of good by encouraging Americans to look at other ways of eating than the aptly-acronymed SAD.
As for the hysterically humorous vegan notion that omnivores eat a diet where animal products make up the largest component, get real. Check out Chris Kresser’s Paleo menus. Omnivores that follow a healthful diet of natural, unprocessed foods likely consume a lot more natural, unprocessed plant foods than most vegans. The latter seem obsessed, judging from their blogs, with whether the latest fake meat product tastes more like “real” meat, whether Oreos and other processed junk foods are vegan, and such topics that indicate their diets are anything but pristine. There is NO scientific evidence that consuming meat, milk or eggs raised organically (or even on small conventional farms) is harmful, unless the consumer has an allergy to such foods I challenge you to produce even a single peer-reviewed, published study that shows otherwise. And, please, don’t go through the farce of referring to the recent IARC determination. I’ve spent a lot of time these past few months urging people to go back to the original monograph and Q&A so they can see what the IARC actually said.
Richard says
Neither I nor any Blue Zone is vegan… I see no need for further discussion about this….bye!
Essere says
@annielaurie98524
Please eat meat raw for a month without sweet condiments; then come back and tell us that your current cooked meat addiction is natural.
Just because the majority haven’t figured out how we humans produce our own Vitamin B12 with bacteria; it doesn’t mean that intrinsically motivated individuals haven’t figured it out.
“There is NO scientific evidence that consuming meat, milk or eggs raised organically (or even on small conventional farms) is harmful”
Yes they are harmful when a person is inactive. Animal products are survival food; not thriving food and naturally require the exertion of energy to consume said animals and their products in the first place.
Animal products didn’t increase cranial size; nor sexual organ size. Therefore there is no benefits to consuming animal products unless there is no quality plant foods available.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
First of all, I do not use ANY “sweet condiments”, on meat or anything else. Second, I eat meat (and I am including all animal tissue in my definition) both cooked and raw. Third, I have no “addiction” to any kind of meat, nor to any other food. “Addiction” is a medical term that is bandied about, often with the user having no concept what “addiction” is. I am not advocating for my diet for others. Each person must be willing to find what works best for him. I am quite familiar with the vegan diet, having practiced, and eventually rejected it, years ago. And, finally, your interpretation of the role of meat in human evolution and development is not supported by any scientific evidence from paleontology, evolutionary biology, archaeology, or human history.
Essere says
Neat with the highlighting.
Addiction is when a type of stimulant unnaturally raises our neurochemicals to unnatural levels which eventually leads to said levels of neurochemicals to fall much lower then they were initially. Simple enough?
Cooking meat produces polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03189998
There is no Vegan diet since veganism is a movement. There is many plant based diets as there is many diets that include animals.
Nonsense speculative science: paleontology, evolutionary biology, archaeology.
Real science: Neurochemistry and biochemistry.
Big cats still have small 350cc cranials yet they consume plenty of meat. Is there anything in meat in sufficient quantity to raise the levels of neurotrophins? Do you have any real science?
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Project much? Speculative “science” is your contention that first, cooking meat produces PAHs. It is a possibility and is highly dependent on the cooking method. Whether PAHs produced in meat can act as a human stimulant is highly speculative. Whether they would act as addictive agents is pure conjecture. Your definition of addiction is simplistic. It’s not enough that your “neurochemicals” (?) fall to their preconsumption levels, it also requires that the organism comes to seek out and depend on this type of rise and drop. And it is NOT necessary that the addictive chemical be a “stimulant” — in fact, far from it. The American Dietary Association, the USDA and other entities have actually defined a “vegan diet”. Too bad for them they did not check with you first. However, your characterization of the vegan lifestyle as a “movement” rings true for many commenters that have noted the cultish behavior of some vegans. I supposed that paleontologists, biologists, etc. should have also checked with you before labeling themselves as scientists, since you have apparently been appointed to decide which fields are speculative and which not. As for your contention that, if meat enabled human evolution, it should have made lions into rocket scientists, it took me awhile to stop laughing. It must be then obvious to you that it is the abundance of plant-based nutrients (and absence of meat-based ones) in the diets of sheep and rabbits that has enabled their astounding development of more advanced intelligence in relation to other nonhumans. Or not.
Paul says
And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and not the lean cuts only. Okinawan cuisine, according to gerontologist Kazuhiko Taira, “is very healthy-and very, very greasy,” in a 1996 article that appeared in Health Magazine.19 And the whole pig is eaten-everything from “tails to nails.” Local menus offer boiled pigs feet, entrail soup and shredded ears. Pork is cooked in a mixture of soy sauce, ginger, kelp and small amounts of sugar, then sliced and chopped up for stir fry dishes. Okinawans eat about 100 grams of meat per day-compared to 70 in Japan and just over 20 in China-and at least an equal amount of fish, for a total of about 200 grams per day, compared to 280 grams per person per day of meat and fish in America. Lard-not vegetable oil-is used in cooking. Okinawans also eat plenty of fibrous root crops such as taro and sweet potatoes. They consume rice and noodles, but not as the main component of the diet. They eat a variety of vegetables such as carrots, white radish, cabbage and greens, both fresh and pickled. Bland tofu is part of the diet, consumed in traditional ways, but on the whole Okinawan cuisine is spicy. Pork dishes are flavored with a mixture of ginger and brown sugar, with chili oil and with “the wicked bite of bitter melon.”
————–
19. Deborah Franklyn, “Take a Lesson from the
People of Okinawa,” Health, September 1996, pp 57-63
Christian says
The diet is changing due to western influence. Before about WW2, the Okinawan diet was mostly sweet potatoes and not much meat at all. They had an almost vegan diet, and that is the diet that the 100 year olds in Okinawa were raised eating. I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw a drop in the life expectancy of Okinawans in the near future due to these changes.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
This is simply not accurate. Vegans seem to think that, because a population does not eat American-style burgers every day, they were “almost vegan”. There has never, in the history of the human race, been a natural vegan population. Various populations have been, and continue to, use animal resources that generally do not get counted as “meat”. They eat insects; small reptiles; terrestrial, aquatic and marine crustaceans, etc. I have commented before that “meat” is an ambiguous term. As it is commonly used in the US, it includes mammal and poultry tissue. Many animal food sources are far more nutrient dense than mammal and poultry tissue, and make up a significant part of the diet of so-called “meatless” populations. And as for your last “prediction”, consider this: Japanese life expectancy has continued to rise, even as they adopt a more “Western” diet. It would be very helpful for all health-conscious people to have a science-based discussion on the components that might be included in an ideal human diet, but your speculation on what “wouldn’t surprise” you hardly fits into THAT framework.
Christian says
Didn’t say they used to be vegan, said they used to be close to it. And recently Okinawa has had an increase in obesity, so that isnt exactly what I would call healthy. Was there anything else I said that you would say is incorrect?
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I stand by my comment. You did not refute anything I stated. Can you educate all of us with your quantitative definition of “almost vegan”? The obesity rate in many countries is increasing. Many nutrition experts believe this is due to increased consumption of refined carbohydrates, particularly various forms of sugar. These carbohydrates, despite the meat-bashing, also make up the bulk of the American diet. The obesity rate (and the BMI index) in Japan had also started to increase until they took national action to curb the rise. They are still adopting a more Westernized diet, yet their longevity is unaffected.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
If you really do look at the way live in the Blue Zones, rather than just relying on the selective presentation of an author promoting his diet/cookbooks, you will see that, first, their diets are extremely varied (e. g., the Cretans eat a lot of molluscs); and second, many lifestyle factors other than food influence their longevity. Among those are conditions we generally lack in “modern Western civilization” — stronger social networks; a vigorous outdoor life; intermittent fasting; a slower tempo of life; a less refined, cleaner, fresher, more varied diet (aside from its composition); a less polluted environment. In fact, Chris sent out an article today describing a study that showed strong social networks can offset life-shortening habits like smoking and lack of physical activity.
abandoned cubicle says
How does the Blue Zones author’s promotion of his work and products differ from this site’s or related others? Buettner is careful to include the non-food factors in the equation, even in the cookbooks. Cut the guy some slack. Unlike the faddy meat-heavy diets out there based on cavemen with 40 year life expectancies, you’ve got real live ppl going strong into later life, sometimes with no meat at all.
GlindaBelinda says
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301211516302615
“The study showed that the vegetables-based food intake decreased sperm quality. In particular, a reduction in sperm quality in male factor patients would be clinically significant and would require review. Furthermore, inadequate sperm hyperactivation in vegans suggested compromised membrane calcium selective channels. However, the study results are cautiously interpreted and more corroborative studies are needed.”
Matt says
Could someone clarify food sources of DHA for me? Chris says it’s just fish but i’ve read somewhere that grass fed cows, lambs and game contain it as well as pastured cheese, milk and eggs.
Thank you
MV says
The second half of this article warns against the “healthy user bias,” which states that you should not conclude that the vegan diet makes you healthier just because observational studies show that vegans are healthier than non-vegans. This makes sense.
However, using the same logic, you should also conclude that the vegan diet doesn’t not necessarily make you nutrient deficient just because observational studies show that there is a correlation between being vegan and deficiency in select nutrients.
The first half of this article suggest that this is the case and is therefore guilty of the “healthy user bias” that is rails against in the second half of the article.
Just because you are vegan, it doesn’t mean you’ll be deficient in these nutrients.
A well planned vegan diet is healthy just as a well planned omnivorous diet is healthy as well. Just because many vegans don’t eat the vegan diet properly doesn’t mean the vegan diet is unhealthy in the same way that many omnivores not eating healthy doesn’t mean the omnivorous diet is unhealthy.
Anthoney Mahateva says
The real problem here is that most humans cannot tell one corpse from another.
Mary Doe says
For the 2nd night I am not starving and trolling my refrigerator and cupboard looking for a healthy snack to gnaw on. I have been mostly vegan these past five years and as a health food foodie, I ate a very nutritious diet with whole grains, beans, tofu, lots of vegetables and fruit. Initially, I felt great but this past year I have been starved and was not satisfied with my meals. I continued to be hungry and constantly thought about food. My homemade nut butters were my elixir and I would consume copious amounts of it in an attempt to satisfy my hunger. I recently learned the results of my yearly blood work and was shocked to see it was flagged for being too low in certain areas. My iron, protein, B-12, Vitamin D and white blood count were flagged by the lab as being below the normal levels. My physician recommended a multi-vitamin, which I just started taking. I ate poultry and salmon these past two days, along with an egg and plain Greek yogurt for breakfast. For the first time, I am not starving. I have not snacked between meals. I purchased my meat at a health food cooperative where it is either wild caught or humanely raised without antibiotics. I continue to consume my whole grains, beans, lots of vegetables and fruit. I know other vegetarians who have followed this vegan diet their entire adult life without any problems. I myself, do battle Chron’s disease and take medication to treat it. Maybe this is why the vegan diet is no longer helping me. I do not judge other people’s choice of diet, but I just want to be healthy and not thinking about food continuously. I found this website on Google in an effort to see if there are others like me. Thank you for your time.
Philip says
My friend is a vegan nutritionist and said in the case of chrons disease she would likely recommend eating some animal products.
Notasheeple says
As a chrons colon cancer patient I beg to differ with that opinion. Animals being consumed for food and animal based products are detrimental to the colon of a chrons patient. I suggest more research should be done on her behalf before giving out bad advice.
Omega 3 Movement says
These 2 Social Enterprises are partnering up to fight Iron Deficiency. Very surprising solution!
http://www.raultiru.com/end-iron-deficiency
Henry says
I am 65, garden everyday, (lots of digging, cycle, climb trees, coppicing, logging and axing in winter, sailing in summer, climb mountains, walk miles etc etc etc.
I haven’t eaten meat or fish for 60 years. The only dairy I consume, 2 eggs a day.
As for studies by agro-industries regarding protein requirements, they are the same kind of profit driven myths perpetrated by other corporations, like the salt institute.
I am living proof that a vegetarian diet, for someone with an uncompromised metabolism, is absolutely fine.
annielaurie says
Henry, you are not proof of anything in regard to any other human other than yourself. You seem confused about how science works. Your case is what medical researchers would call “anecdotal” — a subjective self-assessment of one person’s (the subject’s) health and the impact of his diet thereon. You offer no indication of your credentials to make the assessment, nor any quantitative evidence to support its accuracy. You offer no data, nor even any hypothesis, that would lead one to believe that your regimen would work for any other adult male whose physical characteristics match your own, much less any that differ from you; and even less yet that it might apply to women or children. Think about it this way: the causal link between smoking and lung disease is well established. Yet, we all know someone that will tell you that his grandfather was a heavy smoker, was never sick, and died peacefully in his sleep after his 103rd birthday. Amongst the many other flaws in your reasoning, your sample size is too small and too prone to subjective bias.
Henry says
Your rhetoric and castigation’s of complete denial of individual facts, regardless of your inability to prove otherwise, leads me to scientifically believe that you are in denial of anyone’s experience, other than from the perspective of your own warped agenda.
Stating I am not proof of anything, shows that you are unable to comprehend a truth, due to your massive prejudices.
annielaurie says
My “rhetoric”?? “Scientifically believe”??? I am not denying your individual experience at all, as you can clearly see from my comment, despite the fact that you provide no data to support your claims. I am telling you that your experience cannot be be generalized to all humans. And that’s a fact, Jack. As I noted, again in clear terms, one individual’s experience may differ greatly from the general pattern. That’s why science-based studies use a reasonably large sample size. Sample size does, btw, affect the reliability of one’s conclusions. Try reading a few peer-reviewed, independent studies on human nutrition and it will become clearer.
Henry says
Try listening to people with 60 years of experience! 60 years of plant based food, that’s a fact Jill. Scientists are the kind of people who gave us the metabolic toxin that is hydrogenated fats! So much for your highly vaulted and totally suspect view of science.
Try reading a few peer-reviewed, independent studies on human nutrition and it might become clearer to you, or not.
annielaurie says
My dear Henry, why do I need to listen to your 60 years’ experience? I’ve got a good 10 years on you. So, science gave us hydrogenated fats. They also gave us the atom bomb, toxic chemicals, and automatic weapons. Oooo! Science bad! Ignore science! Listen to internet poster claiming to be healthy 65-year old vegetarian man. But who could be bacon-addicted 20-something posting from his parents’ basement — how would we know? Sorry, I didn’t realize I was conversing with an anti-science Luddite. I erroneously assumed all the commenters here read Chris’ blog because it IS science-oriented.
Henry says
My dear annielaurie:
You too could be a spotty adolescent posting from her parent’s basement pretending to herself that she isn’t a Luddite and supposedly her 70 years is an experience worth commenting on.
Oooo! Science all good! Ignore any science that is proved to be rubbish.
Listen to scientific myopic internet poster claiming that science is the only way you decide, despite 60 years of experience.
I din’t realise I was dealing with someone so narrow minded, so i will leave you with your erroneous assumptions.
annielaurie says
Henry, try making an original comment. Merely parroting back anything I say is not an argument. On most blogs, my picture appears, and anyone can check me out on Facebook. I don’t hide my identity. You also have a real reading comprehension problem, don’t you? I never said science is all good. Science is neutral. It’s how we use it that determines whether it works for good or not. But science is also objective and replicable. It’s not clear whether your alleged success with vegetarianism is. I am not advocating that folks follow my example, but rather, that they investigate what works best for themselves as individuals, using a science-based, not an anecdotal, approach.
Henry says
annie try making some original comments instead of crap like:
” Your alleged success with vegetarianism”
Your sanctimonious ramblings, accusations and pious sniping suggest you are becoming a cranky old witch.
My approach to food isn’t anecdotal, neither is my experience, but you are too myopic to recognise, anything that doesn’t suit your warped scientific dictat..
annielaurie says
Henry, “your” approach and “your”experience ARE anecdotal, by definition. Don’t you understand what the term “anecdotal” means in the context of a scientific study? Further, by your own admission, you are NOT a vegan (also by definition), as you eat eggs. You are an ovo-vegetarian. It’s very difficult to have a rational discussion with someone that wants to play the Alice-in-Wonderland Queen when it comes to words whose definitions are established.
Aden says
Henry , I can’t believe you and laurieanne are in a flame war; that’s so 1990s.
Me anyone not eating the Standard American Diet of overly processed foods has got to live longer than anyone eating half the garbage they advertise on billboards, radio, tv, and the internet. Vegan’s Vegetarians, Omnivores, and Carnivores are healthier if they don’t eat things that come in a package.
Whole Grains, Once Upon a Time might have been healthy to eat before they started using Potassium or Calcium Bromide to oxidize them so that they’d raise better but if you care for your health don’t eat even whole wheat unless you grow it yourself and if you oxidize it for better raising use Potassium Iodide like they used to back in the early 1960s. Oh and our government doesn’t make them put that on the lable but if your eyes burn when your bread is in the over it is a bromide in your flour doing it.
I can’t walk by a bakery without that stuff assaulting my eyes. Perhaps if you’re only eating the grain in tabouli it won’t have any bromide in it. Also you may be one of the lucky people who live in the west and have enough natural minerals in your water to counteract all the poisons in our foods. Or you live where the local government doesn’t make a chemical war against it’s citizens. Lucky You. Please stop your fighting you’re both right for yourselves.
annielaurie98524 says
Wow! And I can’t believe the level of reading comprehension here — that’s so 1950s. The name is AnnieLaurie, not laurianne. And Henry and I are not “flaming”. We are representing the timeless antagonism between science and mythmaking. You know, you actually can get grain products that are free of added bromine compounds. You can even get grains that are the old, pre-Borlaug strains.
Jim says
Henry. My dad is a 65 year old who has smoked cigarettes since he was 10 , An ex heavy drinker and eats meat daily, He eats it in moderation and doesn’t have junk food (maybe the old piece of chocolate here and there). He’s also quiet thin with a beer gut. I don’t see many 65 year old men go out and cut firewood and do the stuff like he does, He uses a chainsaw to only fall and cut the tree into logs according to the size of his fireplace, He climbs up 6-8 foot embankments to get to the trees. He chops all the hardwood with an axe, None of this soft wood like pine. What can take me 3 swings to split 1 log in half he can do in 1 swing (I’m a 29 year old male eating the same diet as him, But I’m an IT tech, Not an lumber jack. lol). He also gets under the car and does what needs to be done as well as get out and cut the grass on his hilly property. Though a workplace accident he had 15 years ago that nearly killed him and slowed him down with knee and back troubles, He still keeps up with guys half his age until his knee starts collapsing. You and my dad seem to be blessed with great genetics and resilient bodies. I believe my dad over some random on the internet, Because Ive seen the living proof for myself. My dad’s friend is the same. Meat and animal products aren’t bad for us in the slightest. Its all about moderation, portions, Variety, Balance and regular exercise as well as staying away from or minimizing fast and processed foods that are loaded with chemicals, Bad fats and artificial crap. Its nice to hear that your diet seems to be working for you, But without having blood works taken. You have no idea.
abandoned cubicle says
I think I’d pick Henry here… The outliers in this country (e.g., Adventists) get to live into their late 90s and beyond, perhaps aided by an outlier diet (i.e., non-SAD, very low or no meat, no dairy)
Anon says
@annielaurie
I’ve worked in the field of nutrition research for awhile and can tell you that much of the incessant focus on saying “you need proof, there’s no data, there’s no science supporting you” tends to come from scientists who are industry paid. I actually used to be this way because I was trained by industry funded scientists. I’ve seen first hand how actually “credible” many of these scientists are. A friend of mine was conducting research on egg consumption reducing calorie intake later in the day – the effect sizes were ridiculously small and reduced calorie intake by about 30-40 calories at best, yet the egg board funded this research and took the results to make the conclusion that eggs make you eat less and stay full longer…uh huh. A lab I have worked for did research for a weight loss shake company and we found that a reduced calorie solid diet cured cravings and hunger better than the shakes, but the shake company made it seem as though their product was better than the whole food diet. The current state of nutritional science is fake arguments made from unsound research. The university I work for does plenty of research on polyunsaturated oils and much of this research is focused on proving that they are good for you (like corn, soy, cottonseed, canola, safflower, etc.) yet are funded by those oil manufacturers. Much of the research on meat consumption is funded by various agricultural industries and their affiliates and the actual results are taken out of context and their questionable results are generalized to the public. Many scientists are paid off by companies specifically to go around saying that sugar isn’t bad for you because “there’s no evidence,” that meat isn’t bad for you “because there’s no evidence,” that processed food isn’t bad for you “because there’s no evidence.” I’ve experienced these people first hand because I’ve worked for one! Nutritional research is perverted by industry money the same way that politics are perverted by industry money. It isn’t the case for all scientists in the field of nutrition, but a good majority are putting money, grants, and their careers ahead of sound science. They perpetuate bad science while attacking other bad (or even good) science because they are getting paid off. But of course, I don’t have data to support my argument and it’s just anecdotal, despite the fact that revealing the university or specific scientists could land me in a heap of trouble. It’s a lot worse than you really think it is, and this is coming from an actual nutrition researcher. Many of my colleagues and previous professors or research partners are publishing dirty research or research that is misinterpreted even by other scientists while trying to derail all of the independently funded research which is often contrary to the industry funded research. I’ve had many colleagues complain about how dirty science in the field of nutrition has become. It may help if you went to get some firsthand experience on the subject matter before attacking points of view and research that isn’t dirtied by interest funding. The conflict of interest statements that researchers give are a load of crap. I’ve had to sign them before when I knew they weren’t true for fear of losing my job and funding. Now I realize that getting the truth out is more important than a career in a dirty field. You sir, are the one who should educate himself and get some firsthand experience in what you claim to know so much about.
Raymond Brisebois says
… pssst … eggs are not dairy, Henry (I hope you don’t consider yourself a vegan) … as for anecdotal evidence, NOT eating food my food eats (mostly including grains and other refined carbs, which includes high-carb/low fibre plant foot/vegetables) has got my T2 Diabetes reversed … neener, neener … LCHF is the way for me! 😉
MV says
Be careful of consuming too much fat. Study below shows that high levels of fat in the body causes insulin resistance.
“Insulin resistance (IR) is a common feature of the metabolic syndrome and an important factor in the cause of type 2 diabetes. There is abundant evidence that increased levels of plasma lipids, predominantly free fatty acids (FFAs) and triglycerides, are causally involved in IR.”
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/52/1/138.full
“[L]owering of elevated plasma [free fatty acid] levels can reduce insulin resistance/hyperinsulinemia and improve oral glucose tolerance in lean and obese nondiabetic subjects and in obese patients with type 2 diabetes…”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/0010480616
“In healthy adolescents, an acute elevation in plasma [free fatty acid] with I[intralipid] infusion is accompanied by significant increases in [intramyocellular lipid content] and reductions in insulin sensitivity with no race differential.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23122836
Study below is more unclear about the effect of fat on insulin resistance.
“Studies in genetic and dietary obese animal models, genetically modified animals and humans with obesity or type 2 diabetes suggest plausible mechanisms for effects of fatty acids, lipid metabolites, inflammatory pathways and mitochondrial dysfunction on insulin action in muscle. Many of these mechanisms, however, have been demonstrated in situations in which lipid accumulation (obesity) already exists. Whether the initial events leading to muscle insulin resistance are direct effects of fatty acids in muscle or are secondary to lipid accumulation in adipose tissue or liver remains to be clarified.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460913
adele says
ooooh Eggs have always been classed as dairy even though we all know that they have not been laid by bovines.
Don’t know how it started but have always been classed as dairy just as pork has been classed as white meat.
Mike says
Henry, that proves nothing. Do you think that all omnivores are in bad health by 65?
annielaurie98524 says
Save your breath with Henry. He doesn’t understand the meaning of anecdotal claims, he thinks science is BAD, and he isn’t a vegan anyway. He eats eggs.
Henry says
It might not prove anything to you as you were not part of the experiment, but 60 years proved something to me.
Yo too are obviously suffering from scientific myopia
You can join annie on your scientific soap boxes.
annielaurie98524 says
Ah, Henry, there you go again, misrepresenting what you said. In your first comment posted to this piece you said, “I am living proof that a vegetarian diet, for someone with an uncompromised metabolism, is absolutely fine.” Now, that is both advice to all with normal metabolisms that your dietary style will work for them (which you accused me of being untruthful about), AND a claim — “proof” — that your experience can be generalized to all such persons (which you snarked to Mike that you did not do). As for scientific soapboxes, Mike deserves his very own scientific soapbox, as do all the commenters that want to use science, not hearsay, to learn what dietary approach is most beneficial for them. I would not presume to suggest any of them get on my scientific soapbox — it might not fit their needs.
Trevor says
To add to your comment, my mother tried a vegetarian diet. Not even full vegan diet, still nearly got hospitalized for malnutrition. What works for one doesn’t work for all, it’s very much reliant on the individuals body. That’s something Henry seems to not comprehend, along with many (not all) vegetarians and especially vegans. One person can get by on it their whole life, someone else may need supplements (which is what the article said, something else Henry failed to grasp). But he’s more experienced than dietary specialists, I suppose…
abandoned cubicle says
3:08AM. Really? That explains quite a bit actually…
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Some people can engage in a logical, science-based discussion at 3 a.m., or any other hour. Others find it impossible to to do so at 2 p.m., or any other time of day.
Robert says
Vegan diets cleanse, then when the cleansing is over, time to find a diet that works. However, the guy who claims vegan’s the way to go, T. Colin Campbell, is living proof vegan diets are not the way to go. Look at him and the China Study was proven to be pure nonsense and nothing more than someone trying to sell us on veganism. Any diet that is nutrient deficient is questionable, no, it’s harmful. Going across the ocean without vitamin C proved that, plus a few other disorders when deficiencies ruin us or kill us, but vegans believe they are pure, right, and one of God’s Chosen people. It’s irrational. illogical and as the brain shrinks due to low protein, nutrient deficiencies, sad. It was started by those who had no choice, no meat, fish and insects somehow weren’t the most appealing protein choice, co, fruits, or whatever was an easy choice. This guy eats two eggs and gets some protein from produce, for at least 20 grams. I’m 84, eat 55 grams of protein, hike, have a girl friend, do interval training, lift weights but not that often, walk over 7000 steps per day, sleep soundly, curl 40 pounds with one arm, do 40 pushups every day, etc., so what does that make me? It’s not luck, it’s something I work at. I eat organic, grass-fed meat, wild salmon, raw butter, ghee, coconut oil, veggies and hardly any fruit and only in season, pure water, no dairy but when I did dairy it was from pastured cows, and raw. I miss the milk, but it’s for babies not adults, and certainly not cow milk, but the human female of our species. I don’t drink, use drugs, smoke pot or anything else, and I have my own business which is quite physical. Vegan diets will eventually destroy those who persist on such nonsense, and it is nonsense. We didn’t get to where we are on vegan diets, our brains grew because of meat, red, pink or otherwise. That, girls and boys, it reality. Will this convince vegans to go sane? No.
annielaurie98524 says
Let’s you and Henry fight! Seriously, what you say about evolutionary eating makes sense from a scientific point of view. I am sure, because you don’t buy into the vegan myths, that you realize that works for you specifically might not work for everyone. But the evolution of homo sapiens shows that some animal protein — and there are myriad types — works for everyone. I am sure there are millions of healthy, active octogenarian omnivores (and septuagenarian “youngsters” like me) that are basing their diets on evolutionary (scientific) principles. OTOH, veganism is a relatively recent dietary regime in terms of human evolution.
MV says
“Vegan diets will eventually destroy those who persist on such nonsense, and it is nonsense.”
“Any diet that is nutrient deficient is questionable, no, it’s harmful.”
Being on a vegan diet will not necessarily make you nutrient deficient. Even if there is a correlation between being vegan and deficiency in a particular nutrient, we need to remember that correlation does not imply causation. The vegan diet does not cause any particular nutritional deficiency.
“It’s irrational. illogical and as the brain shrinks due to low protein, nutrient deficiencies, sad.”
Once again, there is no evidence that a vegan diet will cause a protein deficiency. In fact, protein requirement is 42 grams per day. The chart below from a study shows that vegans, vegetarians, meat eaters, etc all consume more than 60 grams of protein per day.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4081456/figure/F1/
Trevor says
That requirement is dependant on a person’s weight, bmi, and activity level, along with whether they’re trying to drop, gain, or maintain weight, especially muscle mass. For a lot of body builders, eating 1g protein per pound of lean body weight is pretty common, where more sedentary lifestyles require closer to the number you posted. There is so “one size fits all” diet. What is dropping fat and building muscle for me, might make, say, a high school cheerleader that weighs 110lbs soaking wet, get fat.
T Colin Campbell says
I don’t usually respond to such insulting drivel but you ask people to look at me as if there is something wrong. I am one month away from 82, I take no drugs, I can easily run 3-5 miles a day and I am as fit as I have ever been. My wife of 75 also is very healthy and takes no drugs. Also, you will find no advocacy of veganism or vegetarianism in The China Study–evidence shows that their dietary fat content is not very different from the standard American diet. Neither diet can do what a whole food plant based diet can do–reverse (i.e., cure) heart disease, type 2 diabetes, etc.) and make superior athletes. It was never my intent to do research to prove the health value of these diets–indeed, it was the opposite. But after continually getting over four decades of very competitive, professionally approved research money from taxpayers like you, after publishing over 300 professionally (peer) reviewed research studies and, after giving over 600 lectures (all invited and mostly to medical schools or their conferences), I know, in spades, that a whole food plant based diet creates health far better than any other dietary version for the vast majority of people. I wish you the best of luck in your continued health.
Anthoney Mahateva says
Henry you are right about the proteins. Vested interests for profit have caused serious health consequences for humans by deceitful advertising promoting a myth.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/apr/protein.htm
Jenna Miles says
False. Vegans get all the nutrients they need if they know where to look. http://www.chooseveg.com
Christine Lehmann says
Thanks Chris for your balanced and thoughtful approach. I have had both vegetarian and Paleo clients come to me and I respect their individual food philosophy. The reason some (not all) vegetarian or vegan clients come to me for nutritional help is that they didn’t know the difference in nutrients between an animal and plant-based diet and what sources of protein have complete amino acids or how to make it work. Even vegan nutritionists think it’s important to consult with them to make sure people know what the best sources of proteins, healthy fats, and carbs are and how to combine or supplement food as needed.
janice says
I am not really interested in spending my time reading these comments. Can you please unsubscribe me. I have tried already but you make it very difficult hence i am still getting emails
Chris McAulay says
Just outof curiosity are you vegan or vegetarian?
Richard says
I consume around 85% of my calories eating whole plant-based foods. Less than 5% of my daily calories are from animal protein and other than vegetables the fat comes from nuts/seeds and avocado…no added oils. Should be obvious that I do not fry anything, no dairy and two eggs every other week.
I left weights three times a week and ride a stationary bike six times a week. I am a Taekwondo instructor about six times a week for 1.5 hours daily.
I will be 75 years old soon and not on any prescriptions, 5′ 10.5″ and weigh 154 pounds.
Richard says
It is not a myth or invalid studies that indicate a greater percentage of people lived to be over 100 years old following their traditional diet and life-style in Okinawa.
You would be much wiser to learn about that traditional diet consuming over 85% of calories from whole plant-based foods, loads of Japanese yams, some soy, eggs and pork but not the amount of animal products near the typical Western Diet.
Except for one’s special physical defects no book is going to convince that whole grains are not healthy for the majority of people because too many past cultures have done much better than we do on them.
B12 actually comes from the soil and many years ago consumers of vegetables were getting their B12 from the soil remaining on the vegetables. There are greens and legumes that provide adequate levels of zinc,iron and calcium if one is not over-consuming animal products.
No long-living culture has been vegan that we know of but that does not justify consuming large amounts of animal protein or some containing toxins.
Marion says
Every time I hear a vegan claim how veganism is so wonderful because the people in Okinawa live to be over a hundred, I have to laugh. Because do you know what the defining element of the Okinawan cuisine is? MEAT!!!
I quiote from the wikipedia page on ‘Okinawan cuisine’:
“Another characteristic of Okinawan cuisine is its reliance on meat. The main protein sources of Okinawan cuisine are derived from livestock, specifically pigs. Buddhism spread less widely in Okinawa, and the islands were less influenced by the non-meat eating practices of the Tokugawa shogunate. Okinawan has had a culture of using livestock since the Edo era. An Okinawan saying states that Okinawan cuisine “begins with pig and ends with pig” and “every part of a pig can be eaten except its hooves and its oink.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_cuisine
Richard says
The truth about the traditional Okinawan diet that resulted in so many living to be over 100 is public information. Feel free to eat all the meat you like and to believe whatever you like…I really do not care except that people like you do more to create global warming than my car, increase my medical insurance and income taxes to pay for all you sick ones…
You can also spike your soda with the thought that I never suggested the best diet is vegan…
janice says
In the 1930s onwards people were taught they would die without meat and there are people to this day who still believe this even though there are millions of Indians who have never tasted meat and are vegan and live to a rip old age. The meat industry is very powerful. The highest most bio available protein food on the planet are algae’s. The dairy industry is also mighty powerful and tells us to consume their product for strong bones because it gives us calcium. When the dairy industry found that there was calcium in their product they jumped all over this to get people to buy more dairy even though the amount of calcium in their product is vastly overwelmed by the amount of calcium that is pulled out of your bones in order to absorb it causing osteoperosis. Everything is about money and they spin any kind of lie to get you to consume their products. There is no money in getting people to eat more vegetables. Spinach has the highest calcium content of any vegetable and despite the oxolates, which reduce its absorption of calcium,you still get plenty from spinach.
All living things have been designed with the equipment it needs to be able to accumulate and assimilate everything it needs to be healthy so when i have any doubts about information i look to nature because it always gets things right. Why are the vegetarian vegan mammals like the elephant life span 50 years and the hippopatamus 40-50 years living longer and are also stronger compared to the big cats who are lucky if they live 8 years and its not just because of their violent lifestyle because in captivity they struggle to live longer than 30 years. For every study that says meat eaters and vegetarians have the same life span there are loads more that say you live longer on a plant based diet. Example the china study. Incidentally none of the research that promotes meat eating never says that meat eating compared to being a vegetarian or vegan will make you live longer but the vegans vegetarians are saying that they live longer not just equal to carnivors or omnivors. You might think animal foods are nutrient dense but they are not bio available because people normally cook them which denatures the protein and so the protein is not as bio available and even if you eat it raw (which you should be able to easily do if we were designed to chase our food and bring it down and devour it then and there) our digestive system is not designed to eat that stuff hence why most carnivors have 12lbs of meat permanently rotting away in the guts and that meat stays there for years.
There are 3 nutrients that are difficult to get if you are a vegan. One of them is vitamin D sorry hormone D which is deficient in the population as a whole whether you are a cornivor or not. Zinc is not easy to get as a vegan. Fat soluble vitamins is not a problem because there is plenty of fat in vetatables that is where vegatable oil comes from. The best form of EPA or DHA which is omega 3 is not from fish. You need to go to the source. Where do fish get their omega 3 from the algaes. So you want the algaes. The reason omega 3 is more important to concentrate on to make sure you get enough is because you need omega 6 and 3 in equal quantities because omega 6 is inflammatory and omega 3 is anti inflammatory so they balance each other out. In the standard diet we have way too much omega 6.
Calcium is not a problem when you eat your leafy greens despite the oxolates. Iron can be a problem if you have too much or too little and you get that from your raw leafy vegetables. The fat soluble vitamins , A D K and E can be absorbed easily when you don’t have a problem digesting fat which you get copious amounts from your vegetables. Remember vegetable oil is from vegetables. Hope you find this helpful
Danny A. says
But how did we ever get around to inventing the wheel and building empires if we were plucking plants all day long?
Bob says
Seriously? The world wide health organization finally clasified all processed meat as a class 1 carcinogen and all other meat as class 2(likely carcinogenic to humans). That is the result of the largest study ever done on meat and is unbias, with scientists from over 20 countries. Look this up.
annielaurie says
Bob, please take your own advice and “look this up”. You have misrepresented what the WHO report said. Gross misrepresentation and oversimplification does a disservice not only to the readers of this blog, but also to the effort that IARC-WHO put into this work. You might start with their definition of “meat”, then enlighten yourself on the classification system (there is no “Class 2”), and finally read their “Q&A on the carcinogenicity of the consumption of red meat and processed meat” at http://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/
Richard says
Wait another fifty to one hundred years for more complete nutritional studies or look at the five Blue Zones where a much larger percent lived disease free and to over 100 years old.
All the Blue Zones consumed over 80% of daily calories from whole plant-based foods. Consumed less than 10% of calories from animal protein, little or no dairy and a significant portion of the whole plant-based foods were either yams or whole grains in addition to vegetables and fruits.
You can blah blah all day about fad diets like the Paleo, low-fat, low-carb etc etc or you can get healthy fats from nuts/seeds and avocado, small amount of meat plus the 10% that vegetables average.
Raymond Brisebois says
Pure unadulterated b.s., Bob … basically their data was GROSSLY misinterpreted by the press — the difference in overall mortality was 18% … given that a diet of processed meat or red meat was about 4% probability to lead to cancer, that brings the danger to … wait for it … 6%. The result: uber-alarmist vegan propaganda. q.e.d.
Richard says
Do you think it is easier to catch animals or fish, clean them and cook over a wood fire?
MV says
“But how did we ever get around to inventing the wheel and building empires if we were plucking plants all day long?”
Cooking food greatly enhanced its nutritional profile, not just cooking animals but also plants.
Nancy says
thanks
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Comparing the lifespans of different types of animals and concluding their longevity is based on diet is pure BS and demonstrates a woeful lack of knowledge of zoology (both its basic principles and the diversity of creatures it studies). How about killer whales that eat meat exclusively and have a lifespan at least equal to that of elephants? Or bowhead whales with an omnivorous diet of plankton and various crustaceans and a lifespan of 200 years? Comparing animal lifespans as a guide for what humans should eat is a fool’s errand at best.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Chris,
While this article is going on 2 years old, perhaps it’s time to consider updating and re-emphasizing certain points, in view of the IARC announcement today listing red meat (all mammal muscle meat) as a class 2A human carcinogen. While the Q&A from the actual IARC monograph is far more nuanced, headlines are screaming that red meat will kill us. Can you please put his all in perspective?
prema says
Hi. I am not replying specifically to you but my phone won’t let me just reply.
How do I get off this list.
It is tiresome and my life is too busy for Internet talking.
Thanks
MV says
There’s is another article about the IARC finding that unprocessed meat causes cancer and red meat may cause cancer.
This article is about whether the vegan or vegetarian diet is healthy.
Bubs says
This study was interesting and informational: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/633S.full Bioavailability of iron, zinc, and other trace minerals from vegetarian diets
cj says
I’ve been eating a well balance diet of veggies,dairy,fruit,meat,carbs. I’m extremely healthy with healthy hair and nails and flawless clear skin. Six months on a vegetarian diet my hair become dry and brittle, I got horrible break outs, dry skin,brittle and soft nails,all ways hungry,light headed,so happy I add meat back to my diet.
nathaniel says
You dont know how to eat vegetarian, you need to research and apply the research to your diet. Not eating meat is not how you get healthy…
kat says
Welcome to the 21st century, where people have to do “research” to figure out what to eat!
Choice Strong says
I know! We were taught all these misconception on why to depend on meat and dairy, that we never cared to learn about how to eat in alternative ways. It’s not right or fair! It’ good to have alternatives.
Raymond Brisebois says
Rule #1: question ALL authority (especially your national “medical, dietary and nutritional self-anointed experts”.
Rule # 2: read the research carefully for misrepresented conclusions (like the recent “red/processed mead is bad for you bullshit from the U.N.) … have a good look at the math AND the declared conflicts; if NO conflicts are declared, GOOGLE the authors to fine potential conflicts.
Martina says
Clearly you’re not eating enough calories.
raghu says
Funniest is, some people trying to make their dogs, Vegan…
AnnieLaurie Burke says
Even worse, their cats, who are obligate carnivores. Even the vegetarian veterinarian Karen Becker, who publishes a pet-care blog, warns people NOT to feed their dogs and cats a vegetarian diet.
Anthoney Mahateva says
What is so funny about it?
Auggiedoggy says
Agreed. I call it animal abuse.
Corey says
Alright so let me get this straight. There are millions of animals every day getting artificially inseminate against their will, mothers having their newborn babies taken away, chickens having their beaks broken off, animals have their testicales ripped out while they are conscious, hundreds of animals being hung from their feet while they are beheaded every second (and this list goes on) but the tragedy in this situation is people feeding their dogs vegetables. Unbelievable.
GlindaBelinda says
There are more than just single tragedies that people can care about… One tragedy does not negate another.
raghu says
By restricting ourselves from the food we evolved on, we will be reducing the capabilities of our body. We know that we process oxygen from the air we breathe. Restriction should be due to scientific, moral or legal compulsions and not to make it ‘easier’ for the human body.
Anthoney Mahateva says
V says
Interesting…According to this, I should be deficient in B12, Iron, Calcium, Zinc etc. etc. But I got my bloodwork back yesterday and except for slightly low B12 (WHICH IS OK, ESPECIALLY AMONG VEGANS), everything is exactly where it should be. It’s almost like you can get everything you need to be healthy from plants…someone should look into that. Oh wait.
Peter Skorokhodov says
This is a terrible article.
Readers: I suggest you actually click on the links to the studies (found at the end of sentences). Read them for yourself, and then form your conclusions.
Amanda says
I completely agree, Peter!
In response to the Conclusion, in which he writes, “I think it’s possible to meet nutrient needs with a vegetarian diet that includes liberal amounts of pasture-raised, full-fat dairy and eggs, with one exception: EPA and DHA.”
My husband is from India and most of them live their entire lives, not eating ANY meat (including eggs), while many are also vegan (or mostly vegan). They also do not need a doctor to write prescriptions, for them to get medicine; they just go to the pharmacist and ask for the drug (or explain their symptoms to him and he tells them what drug they need). This shows that they do NOT have a culture addicted to prescription drugs (like the U.S.), suggesting that, on average they have less health problems (and use food as medicine, such as turmeric for inflammation). Given this information, how do you explain their thriving culture and lack for medical intervention?
Samuil says
I’m not sure India is the best example for healthy lifestyle.
For an instance take a look at their life expectancy – 66 years (below world average). Out of 194 countries they are 139th. In short their lack of medical intervention seems to cause more problems than it solves.
Nicole says
Please note in India they also get protein from the bugs that got into their food. Vegans from India sometimes had trouble when they moved to England according to a study
Jared says
Nicole, I can’t figure out if that’s a serious comment or if you’re just trolling, what a ridiculous thing to say!
Nicole says
Why is that ridiculous? It is true. You realize your comment is not only offensive to me, but all people who have experienced true to what I stated which you state is ridiculous.
Mfon Amana says
Sorry but these Indians are not strictly vegetarian. They will still eat their animal food in the form of insects especially when land animals and sea animals were scarce. http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/weston-price-looked-for-vegans-but-found-only-cannibals/
Robert Conroy says
This is simply not true. Less than 1% in India are vegan (mostly expats.) and only 31% are vegetarian. 61% of adult women have iron deficiency anemia and India now has the highest type 2 diabetes rate in the world.
Judy says
Yes, the westernization (increased consumption of meat and processed food) has not surprisingly caused an increase in “diseases of affluence” in that country.
Frank Baez says
I love how this people write articles like this and pretend to sound smart…
Those nutrients that you’ve listed.. you can find them on plants.. as a Vegan, you just have to know to replace animal products for nuts, grains, fruits, vegetables and everything else… EVERYTHING IS IN PLANTS….
And the worse thing is that you actually convince people that veganism is a bad idea, now let me tell you…
There are *MILLIONS* of animals dying every single year due to high human demand of animal meat and products.
Animals are being abused and robbed of their right to live just like us, and people are dying from high cholesterol, heart deceases, and other crap that you acquire by consuming large quantities of animal products.
Open your eyes and seriously stop spreading lies about the most healthy and honest way of living.
Sincerely,
A pissed off vegan bodybuilder.
Chris H says
Vegan body builder? Are you the guy in the Mr Muscle ad?!!!
Mfon Amana says
Sorry but these Indians are not strictly vegetarian. They will still eat their animal food in the form of insects especially when land animals and sea animals were scarce. http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/weston-price-looked-for-vegans-but-found-only-cannibals/
dor says
1. You cant bodybuild on vegan diet
2.food from animal source makes the most of a humans diet and it will always be like that
living on rice and beans sounds like abusing your body,not bodybuilding. even if you want to be a rhino and eat large amount of plants. stop presenting yourself like that.
Judy says
Of course you can, silly. Google “vegan bodybuilders” and have a look for yourself. And it’s not just about rice and beans, though those are staples of the most healthful diets on earth (the diets of the Blue Zones). Add in nuts and seeds for healthy fats and extra protein. Not to mention avocado and leafy greens…Gotta go, I’m getting hungry!
Benjamin says
You’re right.
Valerie says
Hi Chris,
Great article. I’ve used it as a reference many times.
Dietitians of Canada recommends Red Star nutritional yeast for B12, and I am wondering, would that also be a B12 analog and therefore, not recommended? I haven’t been able to find an answer to my question when researching.
Thanks!
Judy says
The B12 in Red Star (and other major brands) nutritional yeast is not an analog. It’s actual vitamin B12 produced by bacteria in a lab. It’s the same that’s used in supplements and added to nondairy milks. For some, especially the elderly, it can be more readily absorbed than the B12 from meat.
Valerie says
Thank you, Judy!
That really helps 🙂
Judy says
You’re very welcome, Valerie!
Anofuctus says
I would like to get back to a vegetarian/vegan diet, but with the US/Iran Nuclear Deal, what the use is a longer life?
Eric says
Thanks Chris. You say about the study: “…there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups.”
The article says: “We found that a vegetarian diet was associated with a 15% reduction in mortality from ischaemic heart disease.”
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2352199/pdf/bmj00561-0017.pdf)
Did I misunderstand?
Guy says
The key word is ischaemic – vegans/vegetarians have been shown to be at higher risk for other forms of heart disease (specifically a lack of cholesterol).
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/29/why-are-vegetarians-at-risk-of-heart-disease.aspx
Nancy says
Mercola is basically a meat-pusher who misleads people with his completely unfounded rationalizations about nutrients only found in meat. Simply not true, Almost ALL nutrients start with plants. B-12 is produced by bacteria in the soil and SHOULD be available from plants, but modern, industrialized agriculture and changing the soil has made it too difficult in our modern society; Vit D is from exposure to sunlight – anyone living in northern climates needs to supplement, Vit K is produced by bacteria in our gut. Essential oils are found in plant foods too.
Robert Conroy says
Grains have twice the correlation with cancer as meat. Pescatarian is the healthiest diet with 47% reduction in cancer risk. Pescatarian is pretty much a vegan diet + seafood, which prevents deficiency in EOA/DHA Iomega-3, vitamin D, B12, iron, iodine, zink, copper, calcium, and highest foid source of protein.
Judy says
What is your source regarding your statement about grains and meat? The American Institute for Cancer Research recommends a diet high in whole grains because of their cancer-preventing fiber and other healthful compounds.
Jay says
One source is the China study. No not the book but the actual study. You can obtain the base data from the study itself and work through the data if you have a statisical bent. The highest correlation for diet was wheat consumption and cancer. Contary to what the book says, there was no benefit to esting less meat. You will note thst the book never shows data from the study.
There is annecdotal evidence that people with celiac who stop eating wheat while still young have a very low cancer rate.
Of course cancer is not just one disease so only protective from some types.
Cheers
Ann says
i was vegetarian for 14 years. After I came down with an autoimmune disease, I eliminated wheat, dairy, and beans from my diet and added meat. I am happy to report that I am in remission! Some veg protein sources are poison to our bodies. I must tell u that I eat mostly fresh fruits and veggies with a little bit of organic meat.
1 Hour Athlete says
Great article, in response to some of the comments, of course you can get all of your daily needs, micronutrients and protein from vegetarian and potentially vegan sources.
The challenge though is that the level of protein and other essential vitamins that are needed for optimal health and athletic performance are difficult to obtain without meat or other animal products, i.e. when attempting to develop strength and size, it’s difficult (but not impossible) to get protein from a vegan diet.
John says
These links can help you a bit. I’m not a bodybuilder myself but I keep in great physical shape while living a vegan lifestyle. I have no problem with maintaining muscle, shape, or health, and I don’t find it difficult to do. It’s something that’s worthy to learn how to do so why not. I eat a lot as an active vegan and that suits me because I love food.
Here’s an article about the The PlantBuilt Vegan Muscle Team. I think it was noted somewhere that they comprised 10% of the competition but won 40% of the medals.
http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=article_robert_austin_2013
https://www.facebook.com/groups/VeganBodybuildingAndFitness/ Here’s the FB page.
There are tons of vegan fb pages with thousands of people discussing topics and providing great info. I was helped and I’ve helped others.
Vegan is really not difficult to do. Want a burger then try Field Roast. They’re amazing. And add Chao cheese and “Just Mayo Chipotle” to it along with the tomato/lettuce/fried onions/mustard/whatever you normally put on it… and you’ll see how good it can get.
Every carnist that’s tried it says that Field Roast is in a class by itself. It can’t be compared to meat because it beats it on every level. It’s that good. So why not. And “protein” while important is very misunderstood when you actually start to study it. I don’t even think about protein. I just eat.
Peace,
John
John says
And I take no supplements/vitamins/protein powers. The only thing I take occasionally is b12, but it’s rare I do because of the way I eat. Be sure to read the other comments from vegans on b12 and then do further research into how it all works. There’s a whole lot to study on that subject and that’s important for your health which you clearly care about.
Regards,
John
janice says
this is the most biased muck i have ever read. There is so much crap on the internet and if you dont know that you do not obtain any calcium from dairy you really should not be giving health advice. Although there is calcium in dairy yes, but it is high in phosphates like all animal products causing acidity and because of this acid the body has to reduce this acid by taking calcium out of our bones and dumping it into the blood then after the calcium has done its job of putting out the acid fire it is dispersed throughout all the soft tissue of the body causing all sorts of calcification problems such as calcified arteries, kidney stones etc. look at the relationship between osteoperosis and consumption of dairy in the scandinavian countries where they consume absolutely loads of dairy and they have the highest rates of osteoperosis.
Adam Waddington says
Key word here: ‘relationship’. That does not prove cause and effect.
Anofuctus says
I totally agree with you.
Val says
Janice, Your comment is absolutely wrong and misleading. The calcium form dairy products is well absorbed. The problem in the Northern courtiers is the lack of vitamin D due to the reduced sunshine. Also I see that you are an extremist. You take only the extremes into consideration. You compare vegan diet with only meat diet. If you eat 6 oz of meat per day and combined it with enough vegetables you will never get reduced blood pH. I am always curious how people without any clue of science can write “scientific comments”. In a large study recently have been demonstrated that vegetarians and vegans have a lot weaker immune system and are predisposed to anemia. The results were in comparison not with meat eaters but normal omnivores diet. Humans are created omnivores and it doesn’t mean that we can eat either meat or plants. It means that we must eat both in order to survive.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
That acid/alkaline diet theory is not based on sound science. It is erroneous. You better hope some of your body’s systems have an acid pH or they will not function properly. Other systems function at an alkaline pH. You can actually do very little to change the pH of various parts of your body by diet. The body knows what pH regime it needs and works to maintain the optimum range for that particular function.
annielaurie says
The acid-alkaline theory of nutrition (and I hesitate to call it a theory, as that gives it a scientific veneer it does not merit) is nonscientific bunk. It has been shown to be such by several writers, including the very Chris Kresser whose blog this is. Several foods that vegans claimed were “acidifying” actually produce an alkaline residue when analyzed in the lab, rather than in someone’s fevered new-age pipe dreams. Not that this matters a whit for your overall health. See http://skepdic.com/alkalinediet.html, https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-alkaline-diets-cure-cancer.t5401/, http://www.webmd.com/diet/a-z/alkaline-diets, and http://www.naturalnews.com/041623_alkaline_diet_pH_level_myths.html, to cite only a few. Any benefits from the so-called alkaline diet result from its emphasis on getting people to consume more fresh vegetables and fruit, not from any blood-pH balancing.
JeannieL says
Your body pulls calcium from your bones when protein is consumed no matter what source the protein comes from; animal or otherwise.
Diana James says
I think that’s a good article although I have been doing a lot of research on vegetarian diets and have found out that a person can get all nutritional needs without supplements. It just takes a lot of balancing of diet and a lot of eating foods that absorb those nutrients. Many people fail to do that because of what ever reason. I just thought I would let you know.
Mfon Amana says
I’m sorry but on a vegetarian diet, or worse vegan, you will be lacking active vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin K2 (if yoB12u dont ferment your veg), calcium, iron (heme), CLA (only found in ruminants fed on pasture), enough cholesterol (to fulfil vital functions), long chain DHA, biotin, B12, choline, this list is endless….
Judy says
Nonsense. The only nutrient necessary for vegans to supplement is B12, though many choose to take more, just as many meat eaters do. Active vitamin A is unnecessary and can be problematic in excess, as can heme (animal-based) iron. The body forms all the vitamin A it needs from the beta carotene in vegetables. The safer non-heme iron is plentiful in dark leafy greens, legumes, whole grains such as buckwheat, nuts, and seeds. To ensure absorption, consume it with a food high in vitamin C. There’s plenty of calcium in plant foods, especially dark leafy greens, beans, seeds, and plant-based milks. Algae-derived (vegan) long-chain DHA and EPA supplements are widely available. (Algae is where fish get their omega-3s.) And with a diet lower than typical in omega-6 (in other words, a whole-foods, plant-based diet), conversion of short-chain omega-3s in foods like walnuts and flax seed to long-chain becomes efficient. Many common plant foods, including tofu, quinoa and broccoli, are good sources of choline. CLA is found in abundance in a variety of mushrooms. With the addition of a simple B12 supplement, a well-rounded plant-based diet provides all the nutrients needed for excellent health without the risks inherent in a diet high in animal products.
Melissa says
Actually, not everyone can convert beta-carotene to vitamin A. As a naturopath, I see many people that are deficient in vitamin A.
BETA CAROTENE IS NOT VITAMIN A
Chris @ The Other Side of Food says
Great article Chris! I’d add that although it’s possible to get all of our essential amino acids from vegetables most vegans and vegetarians are still deprived of protein. When I went on a high vegetable low-protein kick for a week, I noticed that my nails were brittle and my hair was starting to shed. I think the best solution is to eat locally raised, high nutritious meat and a substantial amount of produce into your diet as well.
Chris @ The Other Side of Food says
Great article Chris! I’d like to add that although its possible to get all your essential amino acids from vegetables, most vegans and vegetarians are still deprived of protein. I think the best solution is to eat locally raised high quality meat and include a substantial amount of fresh produce into your diet.
Sarah says
Plants have protein. I’m vegan and eat more than enough protein on a daily basis. Meat isn’t necessary.
Julia says
I tend to be skeptical when people point to just one study that happens to support their point of view while ignoring the many others that may not (and no, they are not all plagued by healthy user bias – there are many ways to control for that possibility).
Also the link you gave for the study does not confirm the results you wrote about. I just looked at it and it does not mention anything about comparing vegetarians with omnivores.
However, if it really is the case that health conscious omnivores and health conscious vegetarians live equally long, then it seems that the vegetarian diet has no disadvantage. Yes they may need to take supplements, but so do many omnivores. Really there is no health reason in a modern society to kill animals for food.
teri says
Hello….it is written in scriptures that many people before Christ had and did kill all kinds of beasts for food and clothing and the Lord said Every beast of the land every fowl of the air are meat for men.the lord also says eat meat sparingly. …so it is meant for us to eat meat.but we are giving agency to chose for ourselves what we do as by choice and free will.
Judy says
I highly recommend a book written from the Christian perspective called Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy by Matthew Scully. Scully and many other Christians have come to believe that Christians should reconsider supporting the horrors of corporate animal agriculture as well as the damage done to Creation by this industry.
http://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Power-Suffering-Animals-Mercy/dp/0312319738
Elisa Hernandez says
Hi Chris. Respectfully, vegans get all of the nutrients that they need without needing to consume meat. I encourage you to check out this article, it debunks a lot of myths about vegan myths and it is actually quite interesting. http://www.freshnlean.com/20-vegan-myths-dispelled/
Daniel says
I was a vegetarian for two years . I was always hungry and had low levels of energy. I made sure that my diet was balanced as I was aware of the risks, so please don’t tell me that I did not do it right. I also exercised regularly.
After doing lots of research and thinking, I decided to go back to eating meat. I introduced all natural chicken slowly, then lean organic beef. My body never felt happier. I lost 15lb (I weight 120 now), never hungry, and full of energy. No diets, just listening to what my body is telling me (and that is eat meat in moderation, lots of veggies, nuts and fruits). It’s been 5 years since I got back to the natural human diet the way God intended us to eat. Never been happier in my life.
I think all the people who claim how being vegan/vegetarian is the best thing that ever happened to them are just experiencing powerful placebo effect since , as the author mentioned, the myths of devastating meat diet vs happy and healthy vegetarian are still extremely prevalent in our society.
Lyndsey says
This article is so poorly informed. I just had my blood tested and I have perfect levels of B-12, iron, calcium, I had a full panel done. I’ve been vegetarian for 7 years and vegan for 2. I was actually anemic when I ate meat and dairy. It’s a little embarrassing that the author didn’t examine any actual evidence and assumed our diets are lacking, despite the vast amount of healthy, happy vegans in the world. We have a ‘health bias’ because veganism follows general health. People who do nutritional research learn that it’s better to suit our natural bodies, which, from our intestines to our stomach acids, are suited to plant-based diets.
Melissa Ibrahim says
I agree with you 100%. I’ve been vegetarian, mostly vegan, for 8 years and my blood work is phenomenal. I was anemic and had high cholesterol when I used to consume meat and dairy products. Sounds like this author was paid by the meat corporations lol. The food pyramid is bias as well since the people on the panel who decide what foods to eat are sponsored and paid by the dairy industry.
Mel says
I agree!!! Vegetarian and complete blood counts always perfect!!! I don’t take any supplements. So I have had no issues being vegetarian…I love it!!!
JonDoe says
Considering that his specialty is alternative medicine and healthy living, he doesn’t receive any more from the meat industry than a chiropractor receives from pharmaceutical companies.
Mfon Amana says
You weren’t anemic, you had low levels of zinc relative to copper
Nelson L Strasser says
I am 71 years old. I became a vegetarian and mostly vegan forty years ago. I take no medications and I run five miles every day (slowly). Until recently, I never took B 12 or Omega 3. Why am I not dead? (after listening to talks by Dr. Gergen and Dr. Stanger on the net I do take B 12, to be on the safe side). I know this is anecdotal evidence, but, I wonder exactly what foods those folks who are deficient are eating? I have bean, rice and tofu almost every dinner, and I make a shake of whatever veggies and fruit I have around, because I can’t stand to eat them if they are not ground up and banana flavored. Also, meat does not have B12 in it, rather the B12 is on it. Also, I take no Omega 3 supplement like flax. My point is that there seems to be a lot that is unknown.
pamela goodchild says
awesome,,,thats amazing,,i am 53,,stopped eating meat six weeks ago,and became vegan a week ago,,i feel amazing already,,but i just know the advantages to not eating meat,,,hope to live along healthy life,,med free,,,
Aj says
Why are you not dead? Well much like you and maybe 30-40% of people you probably can recycle b12 very efficiently. Unfortunately alot of people have this gene mutation which means their b12 depletes over time, some people faster then others which means a vegan diet isn’t really a fit for them unless they supplement every day.
Alice says
I’ve cut out dead animals and all dairy and eggs and I’ve never felt so good. It’s forced me to eat healthy and eat twice as many veggies and fruits as I use to. I’ve lost 20+kg since changing my lifestyle and feel amazing. I’ve also been seen a specialized nutritionist. There is no need to kill animals and eat their rotting flesh, and eat chickens periods (eggs) and drink cows milk (made only for their calves that are killed because they are a by product of the dairy indistry and a cow must always be pregnant to produce milk)
pamela goodchild says
awesome,,me too,,,,i don,t understand why its so hard to figure out,,meat and meat products clog our artieries and cause heart disease,,,vegetables and plants, do not,,and how can we justify all this cruelty,,,,milking cows,,chickens laying eggs,, i have seen the videos,,i am disgusted,so glad to be vegan,,,and saving animals,,,,,
Erica Martell says
Jenica Xeno – Impressive and inspirational. Thank you.
John J – typical and non-impressive. Cows got B12 from the soil that stuck to the grass they ate. They no longer eat grass. Next. Meat is old school. Pretty soon it will just be replaced with more economic models for the masses. Why? Because follow the new big money.
It’s always the same…..vegans speaking for the whole and meat eaters speaking for their stomachs and ego. Vegans can hear meat eaters but meat eaters are incapable of hearing anything more holistic than “me”.
Therese says
That is so not true. I have recently met a vegan lady of 20 years who has, with her knowledge, managed to (willingly) convert me to veganism. I was an avid primal eater before this, feeling great. I have now been vegan for 3 months (no, not long), but feel like utter crap. I tell my new friend how I am feeling. I can now feel aching joints, I have sore feet, I am in bed by 8 o clock because I am exhausted, my libido had vanished, amongst other things. She will not have it even though she is always ‘not well’, tired, headachy, has sinus issues, a husband (who is also vegan) with kidney stones, a tantrum throwing child (also vegan) who is always in fairy land. She does not ‘hear’ what I have to say about how I am now feeling. No, she doesn’t just think herself either, she is all for the animals. Now I am in a place of not knowing what to d. I can’t go back to eating meat because of what she has taught me and what I have seen and now know, but I can’t continue feeling like shit either. So me, as a meat eater, did ‘hear’ my non-meating friend and was easily converted to veganism, but her, on the other hand will not listen to why I think small amounts of organic, pasture raised meat may be good for human health.
Ilya says
Not true,
I am vegan. I happily work 14 hr shifts. Sleep 6-8 hrs a day… I do not consume coffeine and plenty of juice and fruit every day! Been doing this for 5 years now without any problems.. In fact I feel happier AND healthier than my meat eating neighbors who are constantly going to doctors for check ups or gain and lose weight uncontrollably
..
June says
Thank you. Sound reasoning. The bible says nothing about it being better for people to be vegans. In a vision, God presented Peter with “All manner of four footed beasts of the earth(possibly cows), and wild beasts(possibly pigs) and creeping things and fouls of the air. This was MEAT.
Peter was then told by The Lord to KILL and EAT these creatures, to which Peter responded, “Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unclean”. The response came, “What God hath cleansed, call not thou UNCLEAN.”
Of course the vision was about Peter letting go of his prejudice toward the gentiles, but there is also a scripture that says ”
But the word of God states plainly in ITimothy4:1-5
Verse 1/ “Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Verse 2/ “speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Verse 3/ “forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which GOD HATH CREATED TO BE RECEIVED with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Verse 4/ “For every creature of God is GOOD, and NOTHING TO BE REFUSED, if it be received with thanksgiving.
Verse 5/ “For it(Meat) is SANCTIFIED by the word of God and prayer.”
There you have it in a nutshell. God DOES NOT call for Christians to be vegans. This scripture plainly states that Christian vegans have been bewitched by seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Veganism is not of God by any means.
Jenica Xeno says
“How long will the land mourn, and the grass of every field wither? For the wickedness of those who live in it the animals and the birds are swept away, and because people said, ‘He is blind to our ways.’” —Jeremiah 12:4
“The righteous know the needs of their animals, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.” —
Proverbs 12:10
Daniel 1:11-16
Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over him: “Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see.” So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days. At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their meat and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.
“Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.” —Matthew 5:7
Jenica Xeno says
“How long will the land mourn, and the grass of every field wither? For the wickedness of those who live in it the animals and the birds are swept away, and because people said, ‘He is blind to our ways.’” —Jeremiah 12:4
Scholars looked at the etymology of the word “meat” used in biblical times and concluded that it just meant “food”. Likewise, “fish” may have meant “fishweed” (seaweed).
What I learned from “Vegucated” (please watch it) is that God may have allowed humans to eat animals after the “Fall”. This lines up with an archaelogical theory that says we may have started eating animals only after a major catastrophe (like a flood). It’s time that we return to a more natural way and stop eating animals now that there is no desperate need to eat them.
And even if God said humans could eat animals (out of dire need), the intention was likely to only take the ones who were near death:
“Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.”
Genesis 9:3-4 (NIV)
Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving feasts – all orgies of death:
Isaiah 1:11-16
“The multitude of your sacrifices– what are they to me?” says the LORD. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations– I cannot bear your evil assemblies. Your New Moon festivals and your appointed feasts my soul hates. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you; even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong!”
“The righteous know the needs of their animals, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.” —
Proverbs 12:10
Daniel 1:11-16
Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over him: “Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see.” So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days. At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their meat and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.
Isaiah 65:25
“The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither hunt nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.
“Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.” —Matthew 5:7
P.S. I don’t believe in the bible. I believe it was a book written by ordinary misogynistic homophobic men in an effort to control others. Quite successful too. It’s something people use because they have lost the ability to think for themselves and to know in their own hearts what is right. I just wanted to illustrate that bible quotes can be cherry-picked and used for any argument.
pamela goodchild says
well,,thank you,,that was great,,,i copied some of it,,,i too,don,t believe in god,but like you said,,these passages can be used and viewed for both sides,,oh,,i am vegan,,,,and would never eat meat again,
Richard says
You do not have to eat animal products if you do not wish to but you have to remember that you are missing some important nutrients and get them from somewhere. The facts that we know right now is that no past culture was vegan and just being vegetarian is not indicative of how healthful you are eating.
What is indicative of a healthy vegetarian diet is having daily calories over 85% of whole plant-based foods, less than 10% animal products and some healthy fats like nuts, seeds and avocado with additional supplements for the important nutrients like B12, zinc and iodine, if you do not consume much salt or seaweed.
teri says
Thank you June…..well said and I agree the Lord God.
Reta Vong says
Very interesting article.A vegetarian diet is the optimal way to meet your nutritional needs. The key to a healthy vegetarian diet or vegan diet is variety – which includes fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes….….I’m hoping we’ll be able to see results soon.
John J says
I guess the lack of B12 has prevented you from comprehending the content of the article.
Anthoney Mahateva says
Nicole says
Grains are unhealthy. Rice occasionally should be fine though
Judy says
Nonsense. Whole grains are extremely healthful and have been the basis of traditional diets for millennia. Read the excellent book “Blue Zones,” which covers the lifestyles of the longest-lived, healthiest communities on earth. The diets of all those communities are based on grains, beans, and vegetables. The trouble is with highly processed food products. Grains should be eaten in their traditional forms.
Nicole says
http://wellnessmama.com/575/how-grains-are-killing-you-slowly/
Kathy says
Presumably the author will follow this article with one about the dangers of eating meat. Forget those stern warnings about rare problems facing vegetarians and vegans who don’t eat well. Let’s hear more about the long line of common illnesses that affect meat-eaters instead – heart disease, cancer, gall bladder disease, kidney stones, diabetes, and so on.
Meanwhile, I don’t have to take statins. Thank you Vegan Diet!
maxthedog says
The author mentioned the “Health Food Shoppers” study where there was no difference in longevity seen between health-conscious veg*ns and omnivores.
John J says
Don’t bother….the lack of B12 is preventing the vegans from comprehending the content of this good article. It’s a shame really!
Alice says
Couldn’t agree more
pamela goodchild says
thats what i am talking about,i could hardly read the article,,,i am happy being vegan,,and i am just begining to educate myself,,,never going back,,
deanna says
I think it is unfortunate that people put fear into others for challenging the norm of eating meat daily or frequently and adopting a plant-based diet to reduce risk of vascular disease, diabetes, cancer etc…
This is what I’ve learned sinced going plant-based:
If you want to go plant-based…
1) Drastically reduce omega-6 sources of food and include
daily flax and modest amounts of walnuts in your diet to increase your EPA/DHA levels. Consider DHA supp. for insurance-no mega doses needed. If you are not opposed to eating animals have a few sardines or salmon on top of a yummy salad, but do not feel you have to eat any mammal meats to get the protein you need. Every plant you eat (even the highest carb fruits) contain protein.
2) Include traditional vegetarian foods: seaweed, miso, mushrooms, lentils, quinoa, black rice, brown rice etc..
3) The phytates in legumes are removed when soaked, rinsed and cooked thoroughly. Also, consider fermented legumes such as miso and tempeh. Prepare and cook them as has been done for centuries. Lentils have been around for millennia!
4) 95% of patients treated for B-12 deficiency are frequent meat, egg and dairy omnivores. Elderly with PPI use are at very high risk. They have absorption problems and are not treated with increased meat intake.
5) Most iron deficiencies occur in omnivores-not more likely in plant-based eaters or vegetarians, and it is due to excessive bleeding either with mentruation, polyps, fibroids etc… Eat daily greens with a little lemon juice for best iron absorption.
6) Just because a nutrient is lower in a particular dietary pattern does not equate to deficiency (testosterone, carnosine…). Omnivores also have much higher IGF levels, but we certainly do not want to raise these levels in anyone.
7) Look at cuisine of cultures thriving on plant-based diets and emulate them: Okinawans, Ikarians, Nicoyans, Loma Linda Adventists etc…
vanessa says
I have been vegetarian a year and vegan five months before that I was
Simona says
I recently gave up meat after 15 years of struggling with digestive problems. I went to see a dietitian and took a whole lot of blood tests. The outcome was that I am lactose and glucose intolerant. My blood type A+. I always cooked healthy and every once in a while we would treat ourselfs with some take aways or junk food… I never enjoyed the after effect.
Now 4 weeks down the line eating “Clean” I must say that I feel like a whole new person. I have more energy and my joints aren’t aching. I am no longer bloated and I have lost about 5 kg. It is not easy to make such a change after 32years of being an omnivore and we as south Africans loves our “braai’s”. I ate a chop the other night and instantly I felt heavy in the stomach and the sore joints were back in the morning. I chose to try a vegetarian diet to improve my health and accommodate my lifestyle. I still prepare meat for my partner but he is also happy to veg out with me. I take my hat off to all vegetarians as I believe your minds are creative and clean. I will continue being vegetarian and feeling awesome and even a few pounds lighter. As for deficiencies nothing a few supplements can solve.
Something that I find so sad in above comments are that even though it is personal choice to be who and what you are…… neither parties respect each other. Its choice and if it works for you let it be and learn from each other rather then criticize one another. Thanks for all the great tips and links and information all comes in very handy.
costin says
what do you say about this paper that shows you should’t worry about your dha:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24898234
You have to allow your body to adapt to a vegan, natural way of eating after tens of years of meat polluting ourselves.
Justin says
How exactly is meat polluting our body? If you’re asking people to let their body adapt to the vegan lifestyle, then why not let yourself adapt to the omnivorous lifestyle?
matthew says
Forget your arguments about factory farming and the like, the real problem is that there are too many people in the world.
Judy says
And you would solve this problem how??? Since we can’t magically depopulate the world, those of us who are able to need to step up and reduce our impact on it.
michael mckee says
The best start is to stop eating and wearing cows and cow products. After the US military, cows are the single largest source of greenhouse gasses in the world. If you account for deforestation for pasture land they may be the largest. Grass fed cows are worse that grain fed for pollution.
Judy says
I’m with you. Michael. Haven’t eaten meat of any kind in a quarter century. I also haven’t bought any products derived from cows (or other animals, to the best of my knowledge) in a decade. Unfortunately, a lot of people have a blind spot on this topic due to cognitive dissonance, or maybe some just “want what they want” and don’t care about the consequences.
Matt samblisch says
The us military is the largest producer of greenhouse gases? I find that kind of hard to believe. More than cars, factories, etc? Also getting rid of the us military would be the worst idea ever…then you may not have the luxury of choosing to be vegan omnivore etc. You may be in wartorn streets scrounging for whatever food you can get your hands on because we were invaded by North Korea.
Mr. Tumnus says
Without the US military stomping its jackboot all over the world, the US would be invaded by… North Korea?
The fear is Strong in this one.
Spencer says
If you put the whole population of the world shoulder to shoulder in a crowd. We would all fit in the city of Los angeles.
annielaurie says
What kind of life would you have, standing shoulder-to-shoulder with people crammed into LA? The problem with the world’s population is that it is exceeding the carrying capacity of the planet. It’s not a matter of the physical space you take up. It takes a lot more space than your shoulder-to-shoulder distance between you and your neighbor to detoxify the earth’s systems and make the functions supporting humans sustainable.
Henry says
Waffle, waffle and more waffle.
Erica says
China has purchased America’s largest pork “producer” Smithfield Hams. If you’d ever seen the picture of pigs jogged for miles in the back of open trucks with huge hooks holding them in place impaled through their lower palate and jaw you’d feel nauseous at the thought of bacon. That’s if you can feel their pain. If not, online papers are reporting today that the 80% of antibiotics produced by big pharma and fed to “livestock” are creating antibiotic resistant bacteria that now travel through the air. So those who demand bacon and their pleasures, despite the cost to the animals and poor suckers who are forced to make a living slaughtering them, will probably live to die of it.
Erica says
K_______M – no one who is concerned about the specism involved in the raising of animals for slaughter should be “embarrassed”. They are simply more conscious, period. There is no other way to look at it. Further, all this concern for the nutritional deficiencies of vegans is touching but misapplied. Nutrition is a young science, there’s not all that much food science out there, we’re all being poisoned anyway, and animal products, although bad for the soul and the environment, are not the determining factor. The difference between vegans and non-vegans is more simply an ability to see beyond their own needs and desires.
Lisa says
As a Bachelor’s prepared RN who made straight As in nutrition, I couldn’t pass without a comment. I have COMFORTABLY converted to a plant based diet, free of anything processed for the most part. I do occasionally eat yogurt, cheese, egg whites, and humanely raised beef and fish. However, a diet of plants is no less healthy than a carnivorous diet. Humans are fit to eat plants and animals, diary is a bit more in question (after about 18 months of age we no longer need diary). An big consideration is balance. The real issue from a nutritional standpoint is chemicals, over cooking, and incorrect proportions of nutrients. The real social issue is the lack of stewardship and the disregard for animals in the way we raise them as a food/goods source. The author of this article hasn’t adequately researched this issue, and hasn’t indicated medical training of any kind. This is of great concern to me because these days folks take anything they read on the web as gospel, and this article is inaccurate and misleading. If you want the answers to your individual dietary needs, refer to a licensed medical professional or 2 or 3. And remember, the unnatural chemicals in our foods (foods are all broken down into chemical molecular components…your body doesn’t see chicken, it sees chemical components of chicken) alter us on an atomic level, often permanently. More so than meat vs plants, the issue should be how you can consume a healthy balanced diet free of contaminants.
Leah Bradshaw-Smith says
I just read this, and I’m thinking, will becoming vegetarian help me lose weight? Well I’m almost a teenager (age is just a number folks, I am actually very tall and mature for my age) and I’ve overweight for almost my whole life. I can’t really give up meat (my race is basically revolves around meat, if you know what I mean. I don’t think I worded it right). But I will try if it will help me lose weight along with exercise. I’ve read about all the nutritional deficiencies, and I really don’t want them because I’m only young and I don’t want my grades to drop. So I’m kind of split two ways with this decision. Should I go vegetarian, or is there a healthier option?
Leah Bradshaw-Smith says
‘ I’ve read about all the nutritional deficiencies, and I really don’t want them because I’m only young and I don’t want my grades to drop ‘ What I really meant is that I don’t want to get ill from deficiencies.
Anne says
You are very “UNINFORMED” and old fashioned. If you are eating a balanced plant based nutrition, you don’t have anything to worry about. It is the meat that is full of cholesterol and fat and is linked to cancer, diabetes and obesity among many other diseases.
John says
Unfortunately your information appears outdated. Please google “Cholesterol in food not a concern, new report says. (FEB 19, 2005) and I quote: “The 2015 DGAC – evidence shows NO appreciable relationship between consumption of dietary cholesterol and serum blood cholesterol, consistent with the AHA/ACC (Am. Heart assoc./Am. College of Cardiology) report. Cholesterol is NOT a nutrient of concern for overconsumption.” Only 15% of circulating cholesterol comes from what you eat; the remainder, from the liver – according to a Dr. Steven Nissen at the Cleveland Clinic. Additionally, grass-fed beef has healthy amounts of CLA (conjugated linoleic acid) in it which is heart healthy. Meat is NOT evil.
Henry says
Ah the voice of reason, among all the moronic slamming, of a perfectly good vegetarian diet.
Lisa says
A plant based diet will not help you lose weight, necessarily. You need to eat carbs sparingly, and avoid processed foods because they have unnatural chemicals and high calorie sources that are hidden. Once you have removed processed foods, and an overabundance of carbs and high calorie foods, you should exercise. You can be a carnivore and be as thin as you can as a pescetarian, ova-vegetarian, lacto, etc. Moderation, caloric reduction, no processed foods, and exercise 🙂
Lisa says
Went vegetarian when I was 15 and vegan when I was 16. I am now 30 and extremely healthy.
Henry says
Nothing wrong with that diet, fantastically healthy.
VL says
Honestly…. it doesn’t matter what you say, the FDA has recently published new guidelines urging people to consume less animal product. It is FACT that we consume far too much and we’re unhealthy because of it. Also, I’ve never met an unhealthy vegan/vegetarian who was doing it right. Yeah, you’re unhealthy if you’re not providing your body with the correct nutrients when you decide to cut something out. Animal product isn’t the only way to live, we can get our nutrients from a combination of all kinds non-animal products and this article glossed over that.That’s the beauty of the fact we have thousands of food items to choose from. Also, this is something people forget: EVERYONE’S BODY IS DIFFERENT so honestly there is no right or wrong choice when it comes to the health of your body because everyone digests and absorbs their nutrients differently. But let me tell you nothing from companies like Perdue or Tyson or any other “factory-farm” is good for you or healthy. If you choose meat/animal products pleace choose locally and educate yourself on the companies that produce it all. You will be surprised to find that there is a very damn good reason people becomes vegans and vegetarians… lol
Eric says
I think the point of this article was not to say that a vegetarian or vegan diet is bad. It is more of a caution as to not assume that going vegetarian or vegan will automatically lead to a healthier lifestyle. It is instead wise to try out various healthy diets that may or may not contain animal products or byproducts.
I know for myself, I come from a family that has a very high metabolism, and due to this and an active lifestyle, something like a vegetarian diet is ultimately something I can’t do. I need animal products in order to consume all the nutrients I need to be healthy. That’s why there is no “one size fits all” diet out there. It just depends on the person’s lifestyle and body.
Anne says
No human body needs animal products. You are eating a rotted flesh of an animal that was slaughtered, packaged and shipped from the other part of the country. It is full of antibiotic, hormones, steroids, feces and fear, not wanting to die. Your intestines are well over 20 plus feet long and meat stays in your system over 72 hours in 98.6 degree temperature, while your body is consuming so much energy to digest. While its rotting in your body, its distributing into your organs forming diseases and complications.
Eric says
So you would throw hundreds of thousands of years of anthropological history out the window because, when you boil it down, eating meat hurts your feelings? See, this is EXACTLY why a lot of people despise vegans. Instead of keeping to themselves and being happy with their “superior diet choices,” they have to stand on a soap box and get all preachy to those who are eating the kind of diet man as a species has eaten since the dawn of time.
NA says
Absolutely well said!!
Bubs says
Factory farms where animals are unnecessarily tortured and abused their entire short lives have not been around since the dawn of time. There is no historical precedent that shines approval onto such horrific treatment of animals. Vegans speak for those who can’t. Silence is not an option no matter uncomfortable the discussions may be. “Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”
Anthoney Mahateva says
You are dead wrong. Don’t worry about the distant past. Nobody really knows. The human body is vegan. That is all that matters.
annielaurie98524 says
I would disagree slightly with Eric. I think the reason many people are put off by vegans is not their hypocritical tone of moral superiority, but their disconnect from science. Rather than fact, they insist that we accept their mythmaking. Yes, we do know that early man, including modern early humans, were omnivores. The science is not open to dispute. As for the inane statement that the human body is vegan, perhaps you are composed of lignans and other green tissue, and have learned to photosynthesize. However, every other human body on this planet is actually MEAT. Just like the animals that some humans eat, we are composed of meat in all its forms. We are animal tissue. All vegans are composed of meat. You are what you eat only in a figurative sense.
Lisa says
This is also not accurate…meat or plant, all your body sees is chemicals. There is a chemical reaction to break the food down into molecular components, regardless of what it is. The molecules are moved around the body and used in various ways. This is a false and poorly researched argument!
Matt says
You’re wrong. Different enzymes will help break up different chemicals. So the enzymes which break apart haemoglobin are not going to be the same enzymes that are needed to break apart whatever chemical holds plant-based iron.
Judy says
All that is needed to properly absorb iron from plants is to eat it with a food high in vitamin C. The amino acids (which I think she was referring to) in plants and animals are all chemically the same.
Justin says
Your intestines are about 1.5m long, that is correct. But food stays in your stomach and small intestines for around 6 to 8 hrs. This is a fact. No food is going to stay for 72 hrs, because then your intestines would be bloated and it would possible explode. Meat doesn’t rot in your intestines. While in the stomach, the gastric juices, which contain the enzyme pepsin, and hydrochloric acid, aid in the digestion of proteins, to form polypeptides.. In the small intestine, the pancrease secret trypsin which further breaks down the polypeptides into smaller peptides and amino acids.
k_m says
It is not a “fact” that we consume too many animal products, it is solely your own (flawed) opinion. Processed meats that are full of hormones, antibiotics, and various unnatural additives are absolutely detrimental to people’s health when eaten in abundance. High-quality animal products, on the other hand? You’re embarrassing yourself.
elle says
I’ve been vegan for nearly four years. I recently had an exhaustive blood test, revealing only a vitamin D deficiency, which my doctor, and any decent researcher, reported most people in the Northern Hemisphere also have. High scores in all vitamin Bs, protein, high calcium & magnesium, zinc is fine, etc etc. Low cholesterol, low blood pressure 🙂 I’m not saying I’m a miracle vegan- I’m saying that you are likely wrong. 😀 cheers
Shogun says
Perhaps wrong for you, but not for others. It’s kinda like saying you studied for a test using flashcards and got an A and everyone else who didn’t use flashcards will fail, even though there are several other ways to study and still get an A. There is more than one right answer to this problem. If a vegan diet works for you, fantastic. If an omnivorous diet works for you, awesome.
Anne says
Hi Elle,
Same here, over 3 years as a vegan, tests are amazing, low cholesterol, sugar and excellent levels all across. I couldn’t feel healthier.
k_m says
Hate to break it to you, but it’s most likely your body cannibalizing itself for its remaining storage of nutrients. Blood tests aren’t detailed enough to expose these kinds of health problems. Many vegans experience those so-called perfect blood test results in the first few years before even that no longer lasts and their body turns malnourished and sick.
Judy says
Her body is “cannibalizing itself”? Why, because she’s vegan? That’s ridiculous. I’ve eaten 100% plant-based for over a decade and have increasingly excellent health and lab results, much better than when I was eating meat and cheese. Many people have been vegan for decades, or all their lives, and are the epitome of health, particularly if they’re “whole food” vegans as opposed to “junk food” vegans. Google Ellsworth Wareham, M.D., vegan centenarian, as one example. Another is senior runner/cancer survivor Ruth Heidrich. Both have been vegan for decades and are stellar examples of good health and lives well lived.
Henry says
Total crap, I have been vegetarian for 60 years and unknown to me, as i don’t consume animal products, apparently I have been a vegan without recognising the word.
So your castigations are utter rubbish.
Wendy says
It’s interesting that you have so few vitamin deficiencies. I had testable deficiencies in iron, Vitamin D, and B12 on an omnivore diet.
My doctor recommended the horse pills of B12, because I just didn’t absorb enough.
I tried going vegan, and within 7 weeks, my blood tests when from being fairly normal, to have glucose levels being near pre-diabetic, doubling triglycerides, and cholesterol levels so low that it was outside of the normal range. Within a few months, I was almost non-functional.
What I got most out of the article was that there are genetic components that explain why some people can do quite well, and some experience issues almost immediately.
That to me seems to fit why there are such varied experiences to people eating essentially the same diet.
Bruce Clifton says
Hi Wendy, The trouble is, all the people who are technically vegans are not “eating essentially the same diet.” Vegan diets vary greatly, just like omnivore diets do. Some vegans eat a healthy diet and some eat an unhealthy diet. Most omnivores who eat an unhealthy diet will end up with scary lab results, and most vegans who eat an unhealthy diet will also end up with scary lab results.
Erica says
How topical, Jesus Fries. Read the article in The Natural News (Mike Adams blog) about how California is returning to the desert it was due to people “drinking” other people’s water – for their golf courses and for bottling for sale (Dasani, Coca Cola). Those who are annoyed by ethics will nonetheless eventually be forced to confront a truth beyond their own preferences. Unfortunately California also grows quite a bit of our produce so we’ll see how it goes. They’ll keep shifting the pieces to maintain the status quo until perhaps there is nowhere to shift them. Right now they’ve just announced a 25% water restriction – but not watering highway medians is not going to resolve this – too little too late. For a scare you’ll never forget watch Climate Refugees on Netflix and pay attention to what is happening in Calais.
Jesus Fries says
I’ve watched all of the videos that you vegetarians ask me to. Scary? I don’t think so. Do you even know the right percentage of factories that abuse their animals? No? Until then, I wouldn’t even bother to think about becoming a vegetarian.
Lisa says
99.9 percent of chickens for meat, 97 percent of laying hens, 99 percent of turkeys, 95 percent of pigs, and 78 percent of cattle in the US comes from factory farms.
Jesus Fries says
Source or evidence?
Lozatron says
Disregarding the fact animals whether raised organically or factory farm still go to the same utterly unhumane slaughter houses (which means IMHO 100% of meat animals suffer) most people would agree factory farming is inherently cruel – below it the relevant section in the wiki entry, data credited to Worldwatch Institute.
“Factory farming is widespread in developed nations. According to the Worldwatch Institute, as of 2006, 74 percent of the world’s poultry, 43 percent of beef, and 68 percent of eggs were produced this way.[13] In the U.S., as of 2000 four companies produced 81 percent of cows, 73 percent of sheep, 60 percent of pigs, and 50 percent of chickens and according to its National Pork Producers Council, 80 million of its 95 million pigs slaughtered each year are reared in industrial settings”
Bruce Martin says
There are studies showing that vegetarians live in average 3-4 years longer, so even with all these risks of vitamin deficiency the risk of having too much protein is much higher; proteins makes the body releases growth hormones that speeds up the aging process and makes our body deteriorate faster, not to mention animal fat as well as chemicals known to cause cancer found in meat when heated over 170 degrees celcius/centigrade.
Vegetarians are unhealthy on average, perhaps. But meat eaters are worse. Otherwise, vegetarians wouldn’t live longer.
But myself, I have cod liver oil, and some milk products, just to keep healthy. One needs 25 kg of vegetables to produce 1 kg of beef meat, so with the rising food prices for poor people around the world eating meat is extremely unethical. It’s basically stealing other peoples food.
JesusFries says
I find no fault in your upper comment, but unethical? Really? That’s like saying that it’s unethical to drink water, because poor people have no access to clean water. Drinking clean water is basically stealing other people’s water.
Judy says
Obviously it isn’t the same. Everyone needs water. Nobody needs meat, and eating it takes away valuable resources that can be used more efficiently to grow plant food.
Matt says
That is ridiculous. Those vegetables wouldn’t otherwise find themselves halfway across the world and be put into the mouths of hungry people, they wouldn’t be produced at all. So are you basically murdering people by guilting them into a harder to manage diet that may not even be nutritious enough for them to live off from a genetic standpoint?
Judy says
There’s no need for vegetables to go halfway around the world in any case. Land, in many countries on all continents, is being used to mass-produce grain and soy to feed farmed animals that are extremely inefficient at turning these plants into meat, and some of that land could be used to grow healthful plant foods that are part of the local tradition, directly for people instead. A potential bonus: Because growing plants directly for human consumption would require less land than for animal feed, a portion of the land formerly used to grow animal feed could theoretically be returned to its natural state.
prema says
frankly i am sick of all these comments……being a vegetarian for some of us is something we absolutely must do…..if i am unhealthy for it the rest of my life well then i will deal with it knowing i have not killed any animals much less eaten them….it is ridiculous to debate this…..either you slaughter and eat other very intelligent beings on this planet or you don’t and you take some supplements and you know that you are doing right by not murdering….the rest is just non- sense……you have to die of something….however in general i like Kris and what he has to say…..even Mercola tells one to eat animal products……they are just not evolved enough….the end….
jesl says
i lost respect for this author when he said vegans are b12 deficient. really? then why is it that i know meat eaters that drink milk, eat meat, and dairy and they are b12 deficient???
Jesus says
That’s like saying “I know water-drinkers who are dehydrated often.” The reason why the people you know are b12 deficient is because they simply do not eat enough of it. Also, did you see that the author states that 5%of omnivores are b12 deficient? You should read all of the information and not just what you want to read.
JG says
The author doesn’t exclude meat eaters from being b12 deficient.
Jordan says
No one is saying that meat eaters don’t get B12 deficiency. Just a lower percentage of them compared to vegans.
BO says
I am a pescetarian. You talk about DHA and EPA but not arachidonic acid. The ratio of DHA + EPA + DPA/ ARA is very bad in meat, poultry, fowl, organ meat and eggyolk is bad. Omega 6/3 ratio is also very bad. It is also true about butter and some fat cheese. avoid this. In milk you get enough B12 D vitamin and omega 3. Iron combined with c vitamin makes it easy to absorb iron and if you add some seafood even better. I don´t eat 150 kg of fish every year but at least 300 to 400 grams a week of fat fish. You also have to Think of gout. Why get it if you don´t need to.
Erica says
Hi,
I am young, really young still in my early teens, i have recently been shown the light of the cruelty and inhuman ways of factory farming. And i absolutly want to go vegetarian because of ethical reasons, however my parents are not that convinced since they are worried that i won’t get ‘enough nutrition’ (especially about iron, zinc vitamin b12 deficiencies) even though i have shown them your articles and other information from intensive research. How do i convince them that i should go vegetarian? And how can i tell if a product is ethically manufactured?
Thank You!
Laurie Conrad says
Hi Erica –
I study nutrition at Rochester Institute of Technology. The program accredited for registered dieticians. You could have your parents contact me if you wish. I am 46 years old, have been on an all plant based diet for 3 years. My mother (65) son (22) and fiance (46) are also all plant based. I also have a background in exercise physiology and used to be a personal trainer. I would love to explain to you or your parents about nutrition and where it comes from more in detail but the short of it is as follows, and this is in every textbook for dieticians:
All vitamins, minerals and nutrients including protein comes from plants. Plants have broadband capabilities to synthesize proteins whereas animals do not. The way for any animal or human to get protein is one of two ways: eat plants or eat an animal that ate plants. The plants make protein from the nutrients in the soil and from the sun. The only vitamin a human can get from the sun directly is vitamin D. Vitamin D does not occur naturally in milk – it is added to it so milk is not the real way to get Vitamin D. The sun or a supplement is. Vitamin B12 comes from soil. It is only in the animals because they eat grass and they don’t wash the grass before eating it. Unfortunately they are not allowed to eat grass anymore and forced to eat diets of grain and candy and any throw away food (they used to be allowed to feed them cement and chicken poop too) and so cows are now given supplements of B12. B 12 is manufactured by microorganisms in the soil and it runs off into water. Since we humans do wash our produce and drink filtered water now it is good to take a B12 supplement. It is not naturally occurring in an animal. The animal gets it from soil and water, the same way we used to before we washed everything. Since all nutrition does come from plants, there is nothing healthier than an all plant based diet. The advantage is that you also get fiber and flavenoids and antioxidants not found in flesh. I would love to tell you more. Just let me know.
Laurie conrad_laurie@yahoo.com
Jay Way says
“Take supplements”.
I must disagree. We should eat all natural food. The best source of B12 is organ meat such as beef liver. Vitamins in supplements are often times synthetic compounds that “mimic” real vitamins. This is NOT healthy.
Plant based diet is not healthy. If you care about animal cruelty, then you should accept that, living an unhealthy life is the price you are willing to pay.
Judy says
The B12 in supplements is actual vitamin B12, produced by bacteria in a lab, instead of in an animal’s intestine.
Henry says
“Plant based diet is not healthy”
What a pathetically ignorant comment.
Laurie Conrad says
How to tell if a product is ethical: As long as it did not come from an animal then that is a start. The most ethical diet is the one you grow yourself. But if you can’t then visiting a local farmer is the next best step. But the first step is not eating any animal or her products.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
So the palm oil, sugar cane and other products that are grown on deforested land, causing habitat loss and destruction of endangered species such as rhino and tiger, are OK because they didn’t “come from an animal”? I don’t think so. Growing of plant crops can damage the environment and kill animals just as surely as factory farming. But for the self-righteous, if the destruction is out of sight, it’s out of mind. The phrase “collateral damage” comes to mind.
Judy says
Why so quick to point fingers? How about instead looking for common ground? Laurie didn’t say that those are okay; in fact she implied the opposite by saying the most ethical thing to do is grow your own food or buy locally. Most vegans I know avoid palm oil and sugar cane for just the reasons you mention.
annielaurie says
Palm oil and sugar are in so many products and under so many different names that most people are not even aware of them. And do you really know what “most vegans” do? Have you surveyed them? If you go to Care2 and other Internet groups that have an unusually large percentage of vegan subscribers, and that run frequent articles promoting the vegan lifestyle, you might be surprised. There are many vegans that do not follow your “buy local, whole foods” approach. You will see frequent comment exchanges on various manufactured foods — junk foods in many cases — that contain palm oil and other crops that are not raised sustainably. Many prepared foods are stamped “vegan”, but use ingredients that contribute to global warming, habitat destruction, ocean degradation and other environmental problems. The vegan label says nothing about the environmental impact of a product. I hope that online vegans read the recent article about the greenwashing of so-called sustainable palm oil, and will take more care in selecting products.
Henry says
Annie pointy finger waffler supreme!
annielaurie says
Ah, yes, when you can’t make a logical response, call names! Most of us outgrow that silly schoolyard tactic at about 7 or 8 years old. I really suspect that the defensiveness and rudeness of many vegans has a biochemical basis, likely caused by deficiencies in their diets. It is a characteristic of so many vegans, commenting in so many venues, that there must be some type of common chemical imbalance.
Henry says
And you don’t think that you are rude!
Massive hypocrite…….
annielaurie says
While I make no apologies for calling you on your BS nutritional advice, I don’t have infantile temper tantrums and call silly names. If you think it rude to challenge someone on their pronouncements on a blog of this type — a science-based blog — then perhaps you should stick to venues where everyone thinks like you. If you are going to spout anti-science, unsupportable junk, you have to expect that people are going to call you out. And you did notice, didn’t you, that I am not the only one that has challenged your anti-science posts?
Henry says
Lying again? I gave no nutritional advice. I stated 60 years of a veggie diet was fine for me.
I suggest you scientifically check the data before more mistakes are made in your castgations.
Erica Martell says
Wow, Erica, so impressed with your awareness and willingness to begin this most valuable journey. This is the only path to change the world at this point – each person coming to awareness of how their own choices support industry’s cruel practices which are devised purely for profit and brutalize all involved – including the consumer. I see Laurie has reached out to you -kudos to her. You can also check Vegetarian Health Institute which is a brilliant simple source or Dr. Michael Klaper, Ritamarie Loscalzo, or just google any question you think of and the riches of the internet will provide a variety of answers. Laurie’s answers on B12 was brilliant btw and true! And my favorite source of inspiration – YouTube “Luiz Antonio and why he won’t eat his octopus.” 🙂
Erica Martell says
Erica, you can also tell your parents that the largest land animals got that way on a purely plant diet… If it works for an elephant it should work for you. That’s always a mouth-shutter!
Charlie X says
That’s all well and good, apart from the fact the we are not actually elephants, and did not evolve on the same diet, seriously, this is a total lack of science or logic (the first things to go on a strictly Vegan diet)
Jordan says
This strawman argument needs to die already. Actual herbivores can break down components of plants that we cannot. For instance, “insoluble” fiber may be indigestible to us, but a cow could break that down into fatty acids and protein.
anna says
it’s articles like these that discourage people on the edge of becoming vegan/vegetarian. could there be on non bias article out there? when I searched “vegan or not vegan” it unanimously came up with, “vegan is bad, you don’t get enough vitamins, you lack nutrition, not any healthier” well neither vegan/vegetarian or omnivore diets are perfect. if you looked at the other reasons people want to switch over you’d get their desicon
Shogun says
All the article explains is an alternate viewpoint to the whole dieting concept, that there isn’t one right diet for everyone. There has been cited sources of research that support Chris’s claims, so it’s not like he is just spewing out his pure opinion. It’s just cautionary to people who are considering going to a vegetarian or vegan diet when it may not be the right for their body or lifestyle.
Erica says
Mark, check out Vegetarian Health Institute online. I’ve been working my way through 50 very clear, simple lessons that answer everything in a very clear, simple way. Also check the website of Dr. Michael Klaper who has been vegan for 25 years and who provides info to the Vegetarian Health Institute lectures. Also can check Ritamarie Loscalzo. There is simple clear info out there and these are my best recommendations for a start….
Bill says
One cup of sweet potatoes in one day is nearly impossible? I’m no competition eater but I’m confident I could force that down.
Tina says
i am so tired of this vegan-vegetarian bashing articles…
Just why can’t we accept the way people eat. I neither of the two. However I have very many friends who are vegetarians for generations and they are in perfect health. Their kids are great looking too.
I see this article being posted everywhere like it usually happens in the health foodie circle – all waif bloggers post the same over and over again. Just tired of it.
Btw, I have no issues with individuals thoughts but remember it is your truth only. Don’t impose it on others. This is for the bloggers and make it the universal truth
Let’s not be food racial.
Neal says
You do realise of course that the meat and dairy industries actually employ ‘agent provocateurs’ to write articles like this trying to destroy the credibility of veganism?
Many of these types of Internet blogs are written by such people and sadly there are all to many meat and dairy consumers who are only to happy to be told what allows them to continue being selfish without having to feel guilty (assuming some of them otherwise would!) because now they can continue their selfish habits and believe they’re doing the right thing at the same time.
That’s a real example of ‘shoehorning a diet into a lifestyle’.
Nesta Hejduk says
He/she does explain to us that he/she has respect for people’s food choices while also stating facts… Being vagitarian or vegan is in fact unhealth by replacing meat with unhealthy CHEMICALLY MADE PROTIN POWDER…
Neal says
Of course he/she does. He/she would look a bit obvious if he/she didn’t. The whole point is to make it plausible otherwise no one will believe it.
If we are going to discuss what is healthy or not with respect to food choices then we can only do so seriously if we consider EVERYONE INVOLVED in a particular dietary choice.
As an analogy we wouldn’t discuss the issue of rape by discussing whether or not it was beneficial for (only) the rapist.
An extreme example?… perhaps, but the PRINCIPLE is identical because eating meat involves not just the consumer but also the consumed. So, if we stop thinking selfishly for just a moment. It is actually far less healthy overall.
A non-meat product may or may not adversely affect me in some way (and for every bit of science that says it will there’s a bit that says it won’t) but the risks appear small and negligible given that so many people have been eating them healthily for so many years now.
We can argue either way on that.
However, what isn’t in doubt is this…
a vegan diet MAY or MAY NOT involve some risk to me (just like crossing the road really) but it completely avoids the death of an innocent party which, if that were you, you would insist was important.
So..
Vegan diet: debatable risk to the consumer (although I personally I doubt it)
Meat diet: debatable risk to the consumer and guaranteed death to the consumed.
Now which should we consider to be “least healthy”?
It just comes down to each of us thinking outside our own little box and considering the bigger picture. Doing that is something (one of the few things left) which actually defines us as different from other species.
Neal says
In fact it reminds me of a quote from the animal rights activist and author Isaac Beshavis Singer who, when at a dinner party was asked by a woman. …
“Are you abstaining from eating chicken for health reasons Mr Singer?”
He replied…
“Yes madam! For the health of the chicken! “
mark says
Sure is difficult to digest all of the information and make an informed decision. My wife and I have been vegan for 2 months (ok, we cheat a little bit with fish) – we try to take supplements that we feel are necessary. For every great article that supports Vegan or Vegetarian, there is another article that chastises the diet. I only wish I had enough knowledge to decipher who to believe. Education and research is the key but I sure seem to run into a lot of contradictory information on how vitamins and minerals are or are not absorbed and what is and what is not healthy..
Linda says
Hi
I always mention when people ask me about my vegetarian diet, that they need to educate themselves just like you would think people would do when they are on a meat based diet.
I have been a vegetarian for over 30 years and I am now in my 60’s I love it and I find it has made me more aware of nutrition and the essential minerals vitamins etc the body needs.
And “animals are my friends and I don’t eat my friends”. (George Bernard Shaw) All the best, it is good to educate people so that they can be responsible for their own decisions.
Dan says
What do you eat and do you supplement, if so what do you supplement, and what about collagen Arthritis etc…, I attempted vega diet and bout killed me, lost 40 lbs, and becameso weak could not hardly walk, I packed away more and more calories did no good, No Hard shugars either, I even supplemented last month’s before Doctor took me off the diet, was at 207, down from a atheletic 270, I am now back to meat’s egg’s, as I wish, still supplementing at up to healthy 240 with muscles packing back on thank you
Judy Sangillo says
The most critical supplement would be Vitamin B12, assuming the diet is made up of mostly unprocessed vegetables, legumes, nuts, seeds, whole grains, and fruit. Although you can get some Omega 3s from nuts, seeds, and greens, it might also be wise to use a vegan, algae-derived DHA/EPA supplement. You would get the benefits of fish oil without the negatives. (Fish get their DHA/EPA from algae.) Vitamin D is often recommended for people who don’t get enough sunshine due to lifestyle or geographical location. Maybe when you went vegan, you were consuming more of something that you unknowingly have a problem with? Wheat or soy, maybe? Neither of those is necessary on a vegan diet. Regarding arthritis, many people with arthritis find relief when they go on a whole foods vegan diet, because of the inflammatory nature of dairy and some meats. Best wishes to you.
e! says
I see a lot of the critics in the comments believe that if you don’t feel well eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, you’re doing it wrong. It took me many years to realize that this way of thinking is just the beginning of the slippery slope to orthorexia — and yet it’s probably the most commonly argued veg(etari)an propaganda you’ll hear. Please quit telling people that they’re doing your lifestyle wrong — *your* lifestyle isn’t necessarily right for everyone, and it’s damaging to other people to try and convince them otherwise.
Judy says
I understand what you’re saying, but I”m not sure which comments you’re directing it toward. For example, I think suggesting that a vegan (or any) diet is healthier if it minimizes processed foods and includes healthy fats is just plain good advice.
Elizabeth Schafer says
I strongly disagree that healthy omnivores eat “liberal amounts” of EPA and DHA containing fish. I think healthy omnivores tend to eat plenty of vegetables and small amounts of healthy animal protein, usually fish. I also think the thing that really helps them is the lack of processed food. As a vegetarian, who is not particularly healthy due to eating more than the recommended amount of convenience food!, I have made some changes in my diet to improve nutrient intake. I traded bread for nuts, soda for fruit juice spritzers and sugary cereals for plain, instant oatmeal. This, in addition to substituting beans and soy for meat and fish, should take care of any of those deficiencies you mention above. Though it is true that plant foods often have less absorbable nutrients, I believe most heavy meat eaters consume more of these nutrients than they need, considering the calories and cholesterol accompanying them. I also think many people eat too many empty calories, lots of fast food and soda and a healthy dose of vegetables wouldn’t hurt them any. A vegetarian diet encourages vegetable consumption.
brenna says
I would have to agree. When I still ate meat, I NEVER ate any type of seafood, and neither does my family. We live on the plains and fish just isn’t something that is consumed often here. There are plenty of people not eating seafood, in which it is claimed the only place that you can get these nutrients, yet omnivores who don’t eat seafood don’t have this issue…hmmm.
Erica says
Layla, you talk about a Chinese medical doctor who is from a culture which has a long history of knowing the medicinal properties of food. Are we talking about the culture that is chopping and boiling every wild animal on the planet into extinction in order to make it’s sex potions? Not to mention boiling whatever cats and dogs they can get their hands on alive just for the regular medicinal lunch?
Herb Silver says
I am looking forward to long term prospective studies on diet. There are plenty of long term epidemiological observational type studies of indigenous diets diets all over the world where people had low rates of the now common “western diseases.” I don’t know of any purely vegetarian societies though. Usually at least some milk and eggs. It doesn’t take a lot of at least some animal based foods. Not the slabs of steaks most people talk about. But my observation after being a vegetarian for 15 years and observing people with chronic pain is that a vegetarian diet certainly doesn’t work for everyone. May be some folks but not everyone. So the take home message should be that the is huge variability in what will work for people. Maybe in the winter, more animal based foods and less or none in the summer varying the diet throughout the year. That is probably the most beneficial diet for our gut bacteria as well. But, like I said, I am waiting for long term prospective studies to get the real answers. I wish I could be a vegan for moral reasons–I don’t like the idea of killing animals but it certainly didn’t work for me after a while.
Tim C says
“…but there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores.”
Could a take-away be that the best thing we can do is to avoid those things that health-food shoppers? I don’t mean to be too much of a naysayer, but from a devil’s advocate perspective, it seems to me that the study you’re referencing causes damage to the bio-availability argument (etc) that you put forward in the article?
lish says
I could really go for a big thick juicy red meat steak right now. mmm….
ManfredPJ says
There always seems to be at least one inane, unfunny and completely useless comment like this one in any discussion that mentions vegans. How original of you.
Michaelb says
The author may wish to use current research. A balanced vegan diet will promote a thriving human. The key is balanced. This is true for any diet. A little training may be required as a balanced diet is not the old diet minus animal products. A balance diet does not require a load of grains. This article is a good source of examples of debate tricks to win an argument with out relevant facts.
Susan says
I totally agree with Michaelb. For years I’m improved my “balanced” vegan diet with plant based foods and supplements, and feel I’m in excellent health for a 63 year old! Almost daily saunas help tremendously with detoxing! Not to mention…what an enjoyable way to detox!!
Chris says
I have horses and dogs. They both need and eat protein. My horses eat grass and hay (plant protein). They have many side to side grinding molars, a digestive process called hind-gut fermentation, a large cecum (like your appendix) that is attached to their large intestines with tons of strong bacteria, in order to utilize plant protein. My dogs chew with a chopping action, have a very short digestive system, way more potent stomach acids. In summary completely different animals and I think humans are in between. Plant protein and animal protein require very different systems in order to be utilized.
Judy says
Humans have the most in common physiologically and anatomically with frugivores (which includes other primates), whose diets primarily consist of fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, but who also have the capability to digest other foods.
Jonathan says
Except that Frugivores get most of their actual energy by converting the carbohydrates to short chain fats. Humans can’t do this efficiently enough.
If a human eats that amount of fruit they get most of the energy from sugar and don’t get enough fat.
Fat is much more important to humans without the digestive systems that facilitate this conversion.
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/should-all-animals-eat-a-high-fat-low-carb-diet.html#.VNkFZy5wu3F
None of the animals on the list of Herbivores get the majority of their energy from carbohydrates like we do if we eat like that.
SlateMR says
Sorry, but this just sounds like anti-vegan BS. I’ve been a vegan for over 15 years, and at age 55 my doctor tells me that I have the heart and physique of a 29-year-old. I run marathons regularly, and usually finish in the top 10%. My weight and blood pressure are now ideal, and I am literally in the best shape of my life.
David says
It’s entirely possible to feel OK and still be lacking on some important health metrics. For example, I never felt a vitamin D deficiency. Running marathons can be fun, but it’s strength training that stimulates mitochondrial growth – did your doctor tell you anything about that?
There are many aspects of health. Being pro or anti-vegan isn’t really nearly as important as being pro-health, regardless of dietary philosophy.
SlateMR says
Hello!
My point was that, contrary to the article’s claims, a vegan diet can be entirely healthy. Obviously ANY diet can be unhealthy if it’s not done correctly.
And thank you for your concern–but I have NO vitamin deficiencies. And while I don’t concentrate on strength training myself, I have plenty of vegan friends that do. 🙂
SUZY says
This article is really the biggest piece of rubbish and BS that I have seen for a long time. The writer has no knowledge or clue of what they are talking about. If we follow a PROPER vegan diet as so many of us do, we are doing what is best for our health, the environment and the animals (who are violently and barbarically mistreated and all for nothing). I really can’t stand it when ignorance is so obvious as in this article.
Layla says
You are incorrect. The author is a Chinese medicine Dr. which has thousands of years of understanding of the medicinal quality of food. In Chinese medicine we need animal products to nourish certain aspects in order to maintain balance in the body. Veganism is a new fad and as humans have been around for hundreds of thousands of years – there is no sustainable culture on earth that is vegan. Woman who are are vegan diets have a hard time reproducing and people who may stay on a vegan diet will find that aging (past their 50s ) will be very difficult.
Judy says
Your claim about reproductive difficulties while vegan is unsubstantiated. There is no effect on fertility with adequate calories and healthful, plant-based fats. In fact, the higher intake of folate in the diet by most vegans helps prevent neurological birth defects.
The claim about vegans finding aging past their 50s “difficult” is ludicrous. Vegans have lower rates of heart disease, diabetes, and obesity than meat eaters or vegetarians. In my mid-50s, I am the only vegan in my family of origin, and also happen to be the only adult who isn’t on prescription medications, such as statins and blood-pressure reducers. Google Ellsworth Wareham, M.D., centenarian vegan who retired from working as a heart surgeon in his 90s. He’s profiled in the book Blue Zones. Then there’s Donald Watson, the Englishman who coined the term “vegan.” He became vegan in the 1940s and died in 2005 after an active and healthy life at the age of 95. And Ruth Heidrich, who switched to a vegan diet in 1982, when she was diagnosed with an aggressive form of cancer. She is now a 79-year-old motivational speaker, eight-time senior Olympic gold medalist, and six-time Ironman triathlon finisher.
Kristi-Anna says
Layla, I am also a Chinese Medicine Dr AND vegan.
I agree with Suzy & Judy. He needs to look at more up to date research and get his facts straight.
TCM also promotes some animal products which are endangered species, which most western practitioners do not use for ethical reasons. In the same way, an ethical diet/lifestyle like veganism can be amazing for you, like any diet done correctly, without harming anyone.
Barb says
In 1993, when I was 50, I was diagnosed with myasthenia gravis and multiple sclerosis and had high cholesteral. I was told I might not be able to go back to work and that I would likely be dead in another 10 or 12 years. Coincidently, I started going vegetarian during that year. Instead of getting worse, I began to very slowly improve. I returned to work within the year. Seven years ago, I dropped dairy – became vegan. Three years ago, my doctor told me that Myasthenia and MS were “no longer problems” for me. I am now a 73 year old who shares barn cleaning and animal feeding chores for 100 alpacas with my husband. I can sling 60 pound bales of hay and carry 40 pound bags of pellets with no problem. I am active in the fiber arts world working with my animals’ fleece. I am in good physical shape and told I look younger than my years. I do not have aches and pains that most of my friends my age complain about and have loads of energy. For me, eating a whole foods plant based diet works. I don’t eat refined carbs or junk food or soda and I do supplement B12, D and omega 3’s. On the other hand, my husband eats meat (and more refined food than I’d like to see him eat) and he’s pretty healthy, too, though he has aches and pains and his energy level is lower than mine.
Steve says
Vegan has grown into a fad diet in the recent years, and I am glad someone finally speaks about the real risks of such behaviours.
otter says
Yeah eating a diet that is beneficial to the environments/oceans/rainforests/wildlife/starving children(grain grown in poor nations is sold to affluent nations to fatten up your beef) is such a fad. I mean doing good for the planet is pointless, it doesn’t benefit you at all! You have to give up steak,milk,eggs,cheese…I mean if I want to eat these foods at the expense of the planet let me! (obvious sarcasm)
Jason says
Nope it’s not always beneficial
peter sabbagh says
It’s really not that difficult to switch to a vegetarian or vegan diet provided you can experience the benefits or ROI. The physical and mental benefits of switching from a meat based diet become more obvious when you also change your lifestyle routines. Incorporating new fun physical and mental activities, ones that you may have left behind years ago when professional commitments started to become top priority. By bringing back the fun physical and mental things you did when you were younger you will see how a more healthy body and mind can regain its lost flexibility, spirited love of life and adventure. A plant based diet can help you get there. Peter Sabbagh | Founder http://www.thinkmatcha.com/
Travis says
I’ve been a Vegetarian (with minimal dairy) for about a year and haven’t felt better. I do take a daily multivitamin but I’ve grown accustomed to cooking my own meals 95% of the time and heave become a better cook and saved money because of it.
In all honesty you could drink a Red Bull for a bit over a dollar a day and cover your B12 deficiency and then some by a large margin so that’s a silly point. Then again I hate coffee and can tolerate energy drinks so I may be bias. And soy milk is very nutrient dense as well…
The only reason I’m not a 100% vegan is because my family insists on eating out every couple of months and I end up eating cheese now and then due to that.
Still, I’m doing great, I have biceps that are larger than most meat eaters yet weigh quite a bit less and am faster. There are benefits to plant protein over laggy but more dense meat protein.
I hated Tofu at first but as time went on it’s my go-to additive to soups and I love it.
nikki says
If you are’t 100% vegan then you aren’t vegan… you don’t get an 84% vegan… you either are or aren’t
MarissaMarie says
He didn’t say he was vegan, he said he was vegetarian. duh
Leslie says
Soy Milk? Get with it, it’s 2015 for christ sake! No one uses soy milk any more, it’s not good for you and it’s all GMO crap! Switch to organic unsweetened almond, cashew or hemp milk!
Judy says
I don’t think you’ve looked at a carton of soy milk in recent years. They’re all nonGMO, as are tofu, tempeh, even most soy ice cream. Yes, most soy grown in the U.S. is GMO, but it’s mostly used for animal feed, soybean oil, and biofuel, not for soy milk, tofu, etc..
trish huber says
…and if you are depending on cow’s milk for calcium, you might as well be popping a supplement. That is how present-day cow’s milk gets its calcium. It is fortified.
Steve says
Facts are in regarding Red Meat, it is not native to the Human Diet because it contains a chemical that’s unnatural to human biology, a sugar molecule called Neu5Gc from those meats gets fully incorporated into human tissue. The immune system then attacks that substance, leading to tissue inflammation and a higher lifetime risk of cancer.
The same process also could happen when people consume whole milk, certain cheeses and caviar, which consists of fish eggs. (Fish can produce Neu5Gc, but they store it in their eggs and not their fleshy muscles.)
Gerry says
Steve; A Study about Cancer among the Inuit
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2008/07/cancer-among-inuit.html?showComment=1215236520000
It is also common knowledge that a carnivorous people such as the Inuit, that Diabetes was unknown, until our government forced them off the land into government housing in villages sometimes hundreds of miles away from their traditional hunter-gatherer areas. The Anti-Fur Movement also destroyed their economic mainstay, diminishing their ability in acquiring traditional meats such as seal, polar bear etc. Once transitioned to wheat, sugar, HFCS in Soda’s their Lower Limb Amputation rate from Diabetic Neuropathy is 3 X that of Southerners. They are a perfect example of interference by know-it-alls re: traditional diets.
Joe says
They are not a good example! They represent an edge case, living very different lives in a very different environment. Their average life span is 48, and so should not be considered as a model for most Western diseases which usually develop at a later age. Wheat, sugar and HFCS do not belong in a vegan diet – they do not belong in any diet! Refined food in an Innuit diet maks for a bad argument against veganism.
If anything, they are a good example of how Western cultures wreak havoc on indigenous cultures by spoiling their environment and feeding them processed food. Their existence adds nothing to the meat Vs plant debate. Same goes for the Massai. Leave them in peace!
pjb says
Did you actually read the article along with his follow up article. He addresses those very issues.
Desert Mouse says
Facts are in regarding Red Meat, it is not native to the Human Diet because it contains a chemical that’s unnatural to human biology, a sugar molecule called Neu5Gc from those meats gets fully incorporated into human tissue. The immune system then attacks that substance, leading to tissue inflammation and a higher lifetime risk of cancer.
The same process also could happen when people consume whole milk, certain cheeses and caviar, which consists of fish eggs. (Fish can produce Neu5Gc, but they store it in their eggs and not their fleshy muscles.) http://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2014-12-29-sugar-molecule-in-red-meat-linked-to-cancer.aspx http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/25/1417508112.abstract http://www.techtimes.com/articles/23745/20141230/neu5gc-sugar-molecule-in-red-meat-that-causes-cancer-in-humans.htm http://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/n-glycolylneuraminic-acid-expression http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/dec/29/red-meat-cancer-varki-neu5Gc-sialic/ http://health.ucsd.edu/news/releases/Pages/2014-12-29-sugar-molecule-in-red-meat-linked-to-cancer.aspx As for nutritional levels, I have been monitored by some of the best medical professionals in the country, and my nutrition levels are superior, and I m a vegan for over 8 years.
Erica says
Sam –
The Vegetarian Health Institute, founder Trevor Justice, is a great place to get simple clear answers to everything that people get hung up on – protein, how to get more iron, the truth about soy, Vitamin D, B-12, dairy and replacements, everything – SIMPLE AND CLEAR. He uses a Dr. Michael Klaper as a source and you can go directly to his website I’m sure as well, although Trevor’s site contains about 40 hour long recordings of conversations with Dr. Klaper about every topic vegans would want to master. Rita Marie Loscalzo is also a solid source. You can google her. There are recordings of her as well on Trevor Justice’s site. I’m pursuing a certificate in Vegan mastery he offers because I need the CEU’s to renew my massage license but I think you can access his information very inexpensively if you don’t want to earn certification, or even review it for a short time for free.
Sam says
Hello! I’ll start this by saying I’m a vegan and am not about to change that, so please refrain from telling me to eat animal products. I have a question for anyone who knows enough to answer it. This article suggests that it is possible to supplement a vegan diet to meet human nutritional needs, but does anyone know what is adequate? Do I need to be taking each supplement everyday or is a multivitamin that contains everything and then a supplement for DHA adequate? I’ve been a vegan for seven years and a vegetarian for twenty (I’m 25) and don’t seem to be experiencing any negative side effects, but I’d rather not wait until I do to fix it.
Kathleen Buchanan says
I just want to mention one thing. Watch out for vitamins. Many types of vitamins do not use the right type of vitamins (like your vitamin A should be beta-carotene). One doctor mentioned about patients. When he did a colonoscopy, that he saw vitamins that were still as intact as if the patient had just taken it. Don’t ever take vitamins from a pharmacy or grocery store. Everything that I have read in articles for years says that vitamins from grocery stores or even those from pharmacies are not any good. The type of magnesium in a lot of vitamins is no good. Watch out for this because a lot of the vegetables that you should get magnesium from, you probably do not. Farmers don’t like to pay extra money if they don’t have to, and the soil used over many years has been depleted of magnesium, but why should a farmer care about adding more into the soil if his plants look just as pretty without it. I bought magnesium malate (by itself) individually and other types that are also good are magnesium citrate, taurate, glycinate, chloride, and carbonate. The worst kinds are magnesium oxide, sulfate, glutamate and aspartate. Magnesium is very necessary for a lot of functions but for me the lack of it kept my body from absorbing calcium. It can also cause lower back pain (just the lower back) After I had a magnesium drip (sit for an hour and be attached to an IV while magnesium slowly went into my body) and the next day my lower back pain was gone. Magnesium is necessary for protein synthesis, muscle and nerve function, blood glucose control, and blood pressure regulation [1-3]. Magnesium is required for energy production, oxidative phosphorylation, and glycolysis. It contributes to the structural development of bone and is required for the synthesis of DNA, RNA, and the antioxidant glutathione. Magnesium also plays a role in the active transport of calcium and potassium ions across cell membranes, a process that is important to nerve impulse conduction, muscle contraction, and normal heart rhythm.
Brands I have found that I think are good include the Bluebonnet brand. Bluebonnet Super Earth Multi-Nutrient Supplement works very well on me except they have the wrong type of magnesium. I am very disappointed in that item but the other ingredients make up for it. I take a magnesium malate (also known as Malic Acid) supplement. It’s suppose to be the best for people who have fibromyalgia. One way to see how you body is doing is to have a hair analysis. Analytical Research Labs is the place my doctor sent the sample to and it looked very accurate. I knew my husband had lead poisoning and aluminum poison before he had the test done. The test said he did have toxic levels of those metals plus more. The vitamin and mineral content are really accurate because it can tell over a large period what is in your body and not just what is in you blood at that given moment. It will also tell you if you have any toxic metals in your body. One other way to see if your vitamin is working is to look at your toes. If the nails don’t look pretty than you need vitamins or go to the doctor. Nail abnormalities often indicate an underlying medical condition or a deficiency in certain vitamins and minerals. Warning signs to look out for include yellow nail discoloration, nail splitting, crumbling nails, nail cracking, black fingernails (if you hit your toes on something it can just be a blood blister) , ridges on nails, white spots on fingernails and if the nails start looking like a scoop (nails turning up on the edges) and if your toe nails get thick and white. When I forget to take my vitamins some of these occur. When I get back on my Bluebonnet vitamins all of these signs stop. That is one of the reasons I believe that the BB Super Earth MultiNutrient Supplement is a quality multivitamin and multi-mineral plus enzymes, amino acids and herbs, plus more. To find this brand you need to go to a health food store or on the internet. I just wanted to tell you about the vitamins and magnesium is one of the most important.
Kathleen Buchanan says
Sorry, I forgot something else. I believe that anyone would like to avoid GMO foods (foods where a vegetable (or whatever) is genetically crossed with the herbicide Roundup). Monsanto is the largest producer of GMO seeds (they also made DDT, PCB, Agent Orange, nuclear weapons, Polystyrene, Dioxins (most toxic products on the earth), Petroleum-Based Fertilizers (kills beneficial microorganisms, sterilizes the soil), Bovine Growth Hormone (rBGH), These make the cows fatter and us too. Unfortunately they can make the animals so heavy that some cannot standup, they are just to heavy for their legs to support. That definitely will help the animals, if you do not buy milk or buy milk with no antibiotics or hormones. Monsanto also makes the herbicide Roundup that is a Glyphosate. Glyphosate herbicides were quickly adopted by farmers enabling farmers to kill weeds without killing their crops. (GMOs) They can drench their crops with Roundup and it will kill the weeds but not the GMO crops. Scary! Now we have superweeds, that are resistant to Roundup. Roundup has almost succeeded is wiping out all the milkweed in the U.S. and it is the sole food of Monarch Butterflies. Needless to say they have almost wiped out the Monarch Butterflies as well. Monsanto also produces aspartame. (bad stuff) It gives, a large amount of people, splitting headaches, like me. GMO foods are nothing like crossbreeding, they will not solve world hunger, just as much pesticides are used on GMO foods as other crops. Monsanto’s GMO food is crossed with the herbicide Roundup, not any pesticides, so they have to be sprayed just like other regular crops, and yes they have been proven to be dangerous when tested by real independent studies, (not studies in the U.S. that are in one way or the other controlled by Monsanto), that is why the E.U., Russia, China, and Australia refuse to import them into their countries. You cannot believe what the F.D.A. says about GMOs. They say they are safe. Well of course they do, maybe because President Obama appointed Mr. Michael Taylor, former vice-president of Monsanto, as head counsel to the F.D.A.
Crops that are GMOs include soybeans, sugar beets, (if you want non-gmo sugar buy cane sugar) potatoes, corn, tomatoes, squash, golden rice, Rapeseed/Canola, salmon, animal feeds and cotton. This means that corn oil, canola oil, and cottonseed oil are GMOs. Cottonseed oil is even worse. Cotton is not considered a food crop so more toxic pesticides and the frequency of their use makes cottonseed oil very toxic. There are a few GMO crops made by other companies. These are where a vegetable or fruit is genetically crossed with another vegetable or fruit. I don’t know if these are really toxic but many scientist say they are. It’s just so obvious that those made by Monsanto (almost all of them) are dangerous since they are crossed with the most toxic herbicide there is. Almost all processed foods have GMO foods in them. Try to avoid processed foods. At this very moment there is no GMO wheat or oat crops. You just have to shop knowing what is a GMO food and you only know by reading ingredients. If it has something like corn or soy you can be sure that it is GMO, unless it says NON-GMO. If a manufacture makes a product without GMO ingredients, they will label it as such, because that’s what people are looking for. General Mills touts that the regular cheerios has no GMO. Well think about what that means. It means that all of their other products are GMOs.
I just wanted to mention the GMO crops so anyone vegan, vegetarian, or omnivores can avoid these crops. That is another way to be healthy.
Kristi-Anna says
In my opinion, the average meat eater would eat far more GMO soy etc than your average vegan. They indirectly eat it through all the animals and animal products that they eat!
annielaurie says
GMO crops do not genetically cross the organism with the herbicide RoundUp. GMO crops use genetic manipulation, inserting the genetic material from an unrelated species into a base species, to make the base speices resistant to glyphosate, the active herbicide in RoundUp, or to achieve some other characteristic. Despite what some GMO supporters will tell you, this is NOT in any way like the traditional selective breeding of various strains of plants. That inherent difference is, in fact, the basis of the patents held by Monsanto and other GMO manufacturers. Often, the inserted genetic material is not just from a different species, but can be from a completely different classifying Kingdom. For example, animal material is inserted into a plant. Which brings up an interesting conundrum for vegans that might consume GMO plant crops.
David says
Sam, here’s the thing – some deficiencies aren’t felt until you’re in really bad shape. The body can store some nutrients for a long time and is really good about preserving itself.
The liver is basically a nutrient “warehouse.” If you’re not getting enough from your diet, your liver (and to some extent your gut bacteria) have to make up the difference.
In some cases, if you’re deficient, it can cause serious health problems. You might also impair your immune system, e.g. decrease WBC count and specifically neutrophils.
For example, take choline. If you’re not eating egg yolks or animal liver, you do not have a significant dietary source of choline. If you happen to be one of the many, many people who are inefficient at producing your own choline, and *if* you become truly deficient in it, you’re going to suffer some nasty health problems eventually.
One of those problems, according to some research, is non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. But, it can also contribute to other problems, possibly elevated lipid levels (cholesterol). When you’re deficient in choline, the body taps folate reserves to make up the difference. Then, you run the risk of developing a folate deficiency, and you don’t want that either. The folate deficiency causes other problems…
In your 20s, you’ll probably be fine. After 30, your body doesn’t start bouncing back from the abuse (lack of nutrition) quite as easily.
It’s hard to say, without expensive testing, what you need in pill form, because that’s not how the body works.
To continue the choline example, your need for it depends on how much your body makes on its own, how efficient you are at methylation, and a few other things. Those other things are, in turn, dependent on other nutrients you get from, wait for it, diet.
…and that is just one nutrient. Pretty much all nutrients in your body work that way. Their need depends on several factors, and many nutrients are synergistic with, or antagonistic to, other nutrients.
So, it really *starts* with diet. You *can* supplement if you confirm a deficiency in something, but you also need to know why you’re deficient so you can correct that deficiency with food, if possible. Food is an uncomplicated solution. Supplements are a complex engineered solution that can sometimes cause more problems than they solve.
Throwing pills at a deficiency that’s easily made up with food is also kind of nonsensical, IMO, because of the logistics of micromanaging single/isolated nutrients. In other words, you can’t shoe-horn supplements into a dietary framework that’s lacking the fundamentals, like animal protein. Well, you can, technically, but it’s probably not a great idea.
I know this isn’t what you want to hear, but biology is pretty complex and that’s just the way it is.
Judy says
Actually, there are many common plant-based foods that are good sources of choline: bananas, oranges, oats, wheat, nuts, tofu, apples, dates…and many more. If one consumes a wide range of plant foods, one is assured of getting plenty of choline.
Folate deficiency is extremely unlikely for individuals on a plant-based diet, because it’s found in abundance in legumes, greens, and seeds. According to the recent EPIC-Oxford study, vegans have higher circulating levels of folate than either vegetarians or omnivores.
David says
Oi. This is the difference between someone who knows what they’re talking about and someone who’s just talking out their ass because they are trying to shoehorn a diet into a moral/philosophical framework.
I really don’t want to hammer on anyone’s personal lifestyle choices. And, at the same time, there are facts that can’t be ignored – like the fact that fruits and vegetables do not contain significant amounts of choline per 100g.
I eat a LOT of veggies every day. Vegetarians are often surprised by the amount of foliage I eat. 6-8 cups of veggies a lot. On paper, I get a lot of folate – more than should be necessary. And, while a randomized double-blind study is cool and all, when I did an RBC micronutrient analysis on my own blood, both folate and choline was low.
Please don’t spread your confusions about dietary sufficiency. It really is complex. I promise. I’m not just making this up.
Choline sufficiency is also not strictly diet-dependent. You can be deficient in nutrients due to poor absorption, altered gut ecology, but also because of impaired methylation and stress.
If you are truly deficient in choline, and you’re looking for nutrient-dense options for repletion, liver and egg yolks are, by far, the highest (and most practical).
So, while I’m not against people eating fruits and vegetables, let’s be honest. They’re poor sources of choline. Yes, there are minuscule amounts of the nutrient in there, but you don’t typically eat them if you’re concerned about maintaining adequate dietary intake (if that’s really a concern for you) for the same reasons you wouldn’t eat watermelon for iron if you’re anemic (and then tell people that watermelon has iron in it so don’t worry about iron intake).
If you’re not concerned about your health, that’s fine. No one is holding a gun to anybody’s head here. But, if you are, I think people really need to put down their philosophical guns and adopt a policy of reason and practicality.
Lisa Z. says
Interesting. I’ve been a vegan my entire life (I’m 43), and on your recommendation just had an RBC micronutrient analysis done on my blood. Both folate and choline were fine. In fact, everything was fine. If you want, I could post the complete lab results along with my doctor’s positive comments.
David says
Hey if you’re happy with your diet, have at it. I’m just relaying my personal experience.
It is interesting that you received your lab results back so quickly.
SpectraCell holds some kind of patent on their micronutrient testing, and my experience is that it takes at least 3 weeks to get the results back. So, even if you took the test the same day I posted my reply, you’d probably still be waiting for results.
So, I guess that’s really impressive speed on the analysis, given that the lab somehow got the test done in under 3 weeks, you were able to schedule a followup with your doctor, he was able to comment on your labs, and you have the sheet ready to upload.
huh. Maybe I need to switch doctors and get in on this fast-track lab work.
Lisa Z. says
Sorry, but if you’re insinuating that I’m lying you are way out of line. The lab results took roughly 2 weeks. My insurance is Kaiser, and they posted my results online via their (password protected) website. I had no reason to question the amount of time it took to get the results, and frankly the few days difference that you’re making such a big deal about seems insignificant and petty.
Since it seems that you are more interested in starting arguments than having a serious discussion I have no further interest in corresponding with you. Please troll somewhere else.
Judy says
Wow, you are something else, assuming that I’m “shoehorning a diet into a moral/philosophical framework.” As it happens, I went 100% plant-based over a decade ago for health reasons. It was either that or be put on a statin, which my internist recommended. My health improved substantially in many respects as a result of going plant-based, and I haven’t for a moment regretted my decision. Since that time, I have learned more about animal agriculture and its inhumane practices both toward animals and human workers as well as its negative effects on the environment, all of which further confirm my decision.
I also don’t appreciate being told I’m “talking out my ass” regarding nutrition. I’ve taken numerous college-level nutrition courses and have completed Cornell’s certificate program in plant-based nutrition. I’ve read over a hundred books on the subject and participated in nutrition conferences and seminars.
Sure, you can get more iron from beef and more choline from an egg than from any one plant food, but so what? The negatives from consuming them outweigh the positives. You can get all you need of those nutrients and others, and in a more healthful manner, by consuming a wide variety of unprocessed plant foods.
Your condescending attitude, not only to me, but also to Lisa Z, is astounding and counterproductive to your aim, which I gather is to convince others of your own questionable opinions.
Judy says
B-12 is the only vitamin that’s essential for vegans to take. It’s also good to take vegan D3 if your lifestyle or location don’t permit adequate daily sun exposure. Vegan algae-based DHA/EPA supplementation may be a good idea, but you can also increase the body’s conversion of plant-based omega-3s (from sources such as ground flax seed and walnuts) by keeping your intake of omega-6s minimal. Other than those, a well-balanced, varied plant-based diet provides everything you need in abundance. It’s not a good idea to take supplemental Vitamin A or folate anyway. Best wishes to you!
Erica says
I think the final moral source is your own commitment to a moral life, not a book even if it is called the Bible. Look what is being done in the name of Koran lately. They find justification for their behavior as well.
No matter what the Bible says the first time you see a cow defecating in fear as he approachs slaughter and then being hacked into pieces while still alive and hanging from a hook inserted in his flesh you’d probably have trouble swallowing it. And if you don’t care about cows did you know that about 80% of antibiotics are sold to be injected into chickens and livestock? What did the Bible say about that? It’s all about the money and you are the sucker.
pjb says
Not all animals are treated that way. It’s amazing how vegans try to shame omnivores by telling us we are cruel to animals. I’ve actually met the chickens we will be eating later this year. They roam around a large property and eat at their leisure. They are well treated and humanely killed. I’ve also met the pig we will be consuming later this year. Same story. No antibiotics, no hanging from a hook, etc. And it’s not at all about the money. I could eat a lot cheaper if I gave up my expensive, ethically raised meat. But I follow the science and eat for health.
Neal says
I’m not sure I understand your point there.
You seem to be suggesting that the chickens won’t mind being killed (whilst still less than half way through their natural lives) because those shortened lives are in nice surroundings.
Is that your point or have I misunderstood?
If it is your point then I’m curious about what you would say if another species ever starts doing that to you and your family.
Presumably if you’re happy with the principle of it (for the chickens) then you would be equally happy to practice what you preach should you’re kids ever be on the receiving end of the same thing??
Otherwise you’d be a hypocrite and I’m sure that’s not what you intended.
Just wondered if you could clarify. Thanks
Pree says
You do know that those chickens would never have experienced life at all, if they had not been grown for meat? Would they rather have not lived at all, or have lived a happy life and come to a humane end?Nobody can really answer these questions, but we do the best we can.
Mark S says
Not only EPA and DHA (long-chain unsaturated fatty acids), but medium-chain *saturated fatty acids* are just as important for optimum health.
These are available from plant sources but *only* tropical ones.
The best is coconut (most easily obtained as cold-pressed oil), but most other tropical edible nuts and seeds (again, the cold-pressed oils from them) are also excellent.
At high latitudes – temperate through to arctic – nuts or seeds contain no fatty acids beyond mono-unsaturated.
In these regions people once had no choice but to eat meat to stay healthy.
Mark says
What vegetarians and vegans don’t realize is that your brain needs certain protein to remain balanced. Yes, you can get away with eating fruits and veggies most of the time but at least once a week you should be eating red meat at a meal. Red meat contains a protein not found in fish, chicken, beans etc… That the brain needs this to function properly. Many vegans can become air headed or loopy if they choose not to realize this. Also, a child should NEVER be raised on a vegan/veg diet. They are too young and it WILL hurt their development.
Judy Sangillo says
Mark, can you please name that “certain protein”? Amino acids are the building blocks of protein, and all the essential amino acids (those that aren’t produced by the body) are available in abundance in plant foods.
Regarding your opinion on children being raised vegan or vegetarian: How many vegan children do you know? I know about a hundred, as well as young adults who’ve been vegan since birth. They are, if anything, healthier than most. My ten-year-old, vegan all her life, is bright, athletic, and never misses school. “Air-headed and loopy”? Not at all. She’s never needed an antibiotic and is mystified by the illnesses her classmates get. Strep, diarrhea, throwing up…These are not part of her experience, although, going to public school, she’s exposed to all the bugs that go around. Her omnivorous pediatrician says my daughter is one of her healthiest patients and tells me to make sure she “just keeps doing whatever she’s doing.”
Leslie says
You’re not going to convince a die hard meat eater to stop eating meat, and meat eaters you’re not going to convince the vegan or vegetarian to start eating meat. Granted I haven’t gone through all the comments, but from what I’ve seen on here there is a futile back-and-forth going on. We need to do what works for our bodies. For some people it just does not work to eat vegan, and for some people it doesn’t work to eat meat. That doesn’t mean that either person is wrong. I get so tired of people telling me what I should put in my body, and why. Just the other day I was sharing some information with women who have PCOS, and a vegan woman spent forever trying to convince me to live on vegetables, starchy vegetables, and fruit. I tried to explain to her that I’m eating in a way that lowers my blood sugar, and that high amounts of starchy vegetables, and fruits take my blood sugar up too high. I told her that when I ate a mainly plant-based diet, but had too much fortunate my blood sugars were almost 300. She kept on me for about an hour trying to get me to change. Telling me if I just tried it I would see she was right. I was polite, but I wanted to tell her off, and say what part of it made my blood sugars go up to 300 do you not get lady? The irony of the whole situation: this woman wasted so much time trying to convince me that her way was best, and my whole post was information on different ways of eating including vegan, vegetarian, ketogenic, Paleo, clean eating and plant-based diet, and I was encouraging people to do what works specifically for them. It’s okay to educate someone but then let it go. If you have a moral objection to eating meat, or if you feel it’s healthier that’s your business. I like to eat grass fed/free range meat raised by my local farmer, and I’m not going to change my mind about that. That doesn’t mean that I think you are wrong for not eating meat, but that means I don’t want you pressuring me.
susan says
Thank you, I agree. I also have PCOS and additionally am histamine intolerant, so my food choices are quite limited. I can’t eat vegetarian or vegan; its simply not possible for my health. Yet in forums where I am trying to get nutritional information I am often accosted by vegans insisting that they know my health issues better….somehow.
Preaching to people on your own moral issues with animal products approaches religious fervor with some. I don’t need converting, I know what sort of foods my body can digest.
MattA says
There is a big difference between people who avoid eating meat and people who actually eat plants.
The more plants a person eats, the healthier that person is. People who eat exclusively plants are the healthiest by far. There is need for SUPPLEMENTS of vitamin B12 for vegans. Some people argue for EPA/DHEA supplements too – I take them – and vitamin D supplements should probably be taken by everyone in the northern hemisphere in the fall and winter.
I agree that just being a vegetarian or a vegan is not good enough to insure nutritional superiority. For that a person must eat a plant based diet and take appropriate supplements.
gene says
I was fat all my life as a kid I was fat my life sucked out loud I started cut out the meat and the wheat and rice and corn I have got rid of a 163 lbs. I am in better shape of my life you have to go with what works
MO says
You realise cutting out the wheat was probably the main factor there? Meat, assuming its not processed crap, and eaten in moderation wouldn’t cause you to gain wait.
Robert Q. says
Really? I’m a vegan of ideal weight (according to my doctor) and I consume large quantities of wheat.
Rachel says
What annoys me is how much hate there is towards vegans. Not all vegans are stuck up jerks trying to push their beliefs on you, it’s not a religion. It’s just not wanting to eat something or use certain products. You don’t need to justify your choices or get defensive because it has nothing to do with you. There’s radical people in every controversial topic, but not all of us are like that. Even other vegans try to tell me I’m not being vegan “the right way” and I roll my eyes. Just do whatever it is that makes you happy and feel good and leave me to my vegetables and fruits and the occasional package of oreos haha
Stephen says
I’m a bit of an extremist vegan sometimes but it is because I care deeply about the animals, and I think most vegans are similar.
Imagine you lived in a world where child prostitution was normalized as part of culture and when you enter a cafe or restaurant men (including your friends) would order little girls to rape. That’s how I feel when I see people eating meat, and I think that’s how most vegans feel as well.
James Tapp says
Eating meat = raping little girls?
Wow, sorry you feel that way.
Morally, rape is wrong and eating animals is OK. Check the number one source of guidance on morality issues- the Bible.
Carrie Wilcox says
Mentally, many animals are at the same level mentally as small children. Many Vegans/Vegetarians such as myself are aware of this and it makes the idea of manipulating and killing them just that much less attractive. I’m sure you don’t see it that way since, as most of us were, you were conditioned not to see animals as sentient, thoughtfull and emotional beings. It isn’t surprising that you feel this way.
David says
Animals aren’t small children. That’s straight-up anthropomorphizing. Animals in the wild kill other animals. There’s no lack of respect there. It’s just what they do.
(Many) humans do the same thing. I love animals, and it’s not true that I was never taught to see animals as emotional creatures.
At the same time, there’s a huge difference between a dog and a cow, and I’m thankful for the cow’s life, since it converts low calorie nutrition into high calorie nutrition for me.
You could just as easily argue that the animal that gives its life to you as food is the most prized and respected of all animals.
Carrie says
“In Germany, a border collie named Rico can recognize over 200 different objects and has an IQ comparable to a 3-year-old child.”
I’m not making this up, this is the result of scientific research.
Is there something wrong with comparing animals to humans? Have you never been guilty of comparing humans to animals? Probably not when it was convenient to do so.
Not all animals kill other animals, and when they do, it’s usually because they are hungry and it’s a matter of survival. They do not have the options that we have.
Yes, there are some differences between a dog and a cow – on a mental level that may be just a matter of a few IQ points, the same goes for humans. We are not all on the same level intellectually.
“…the animal that gives it’s life to you…” ??? Are you sure about that? Because I’m pretty sure that it’s life was taken, by us, without the animal’s consent.
Rather touching concept, though.
Read more : http://www.ehow.com/info_8221852_animals-iq.html
David says
Oi. I’ll pretend you didn’t just post a link to eHow (hardly an authoritative source of information). Demand Media (which owns eHow) has pretty wonky editorial standards. I know. I’ve done contracted work with them in the past.
Anyhow, here’s another take on it, written by a vegetarian:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Vegetarian-Myth-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804
I don’t really want to go back and forth about mythological flaws in studies that equivocate dogs with humans. Let’s just agree to disagree on that part.
Gerry says
Stephen, interesting you consider Fertilization as RAPE! Hen’s can lay as many eggs as they want without a Horny Rooster. But if we want chicks, well, in your view the rapist rooster has to be involved, as cows only conceive when in heat. Natural cycles of conception R only Rape in the mind of an AR’st Vegan.
susan says
I have found that most extreme vegans tend to not have much practical experience with animals other than as pets.
And usually people who throw the term rape around as a descriptor for unrelated things…such as food….tend to have no experience as a victim of rape. Tasteless metaphor, Stephen
Pree says
As a survivor of childhood rape, thank you for this.
RichardD says
It sounds like you have a healthy viewpoint. I respect that. I’m a former vegan. I must say that I have come to despise the vegan health cult and it’s leaders — e.g., T. Colin Campbell, Esselstein, McDougall, Ornish, etc. The cult believes that humans evolved as plant eaters and that animal consumption in any amount proportionally increases your chance of death and disease. Since I have started reading outside sources, I have come to believe that they are scientifically unsound, and, actually, fraudsters. The worst is Campbell. His epidemiological “grand prix” (how they love to quote Jane Brody on that), the China Study, is the house of cards on which all their so-called science is based.
Carrie Wilcox says
I’m willing to be you got tired of dealing with the inconveniences to the Vegan lifestyle and had no trouble finding adequate excuses to revert back to eating meat. Yes, some Vegans are fanatical. Some meat-eaters are fanatical Some Christians are fanatical. Some football fans are fanatical. You find that everywhere. That doesn’t make all religion or sports wrong. And I’m willing to bet that that “so-called” science was much more accurate than you care to acknowledge.
Joe says
If it didn’t work for you I am sorry – but taking your anger out on livesaving doctors rather than taking responsibility for your own decisions is pathetic.
Calling Esselstyn and Ornish cult leaders is actually offensive considering the fact they are esteemed published scientists with a long and well defined history of saving peoples lives through dietary and other interventions. They have been advancing the idea of diet as a treatment protocol for decades.
And as for the China Study – it certainly is not perfect – as no study is – but it represents the work of hundreds of scientists and many universities from all over the world. It is not the single voice of Colin Campbell.
Or did Denise Minger tell you otherwise?
Carrie Wilcox says
Right on.
Gordon says
that’s what i say too
Cat says
Why is it that vegans blast everyone who writes an article as being a pawn for the dairy and meat industry? Do you realize how entirely insulting and inane that is? It gets old. Would you like it if we treated you like a pawn for the grain industry or the soy industry? Which does enough of its own damage, from the sounds of things….
David says
just a note on B12…. over 50’s in the USA are recommended to start taking a synthetic supplement as part of their normal diet, whether they eat a lot of meat, a little meat, or no meat at all… i am 31, a vegan, and i take this supplement also, as well as using other foods fortified with calcium, iron, and B12, so your argument about not being able to get these vitamins is pretty weak
Joe says
I agree with you David.
I take a product called ‘Vegan Safe B12’ along with other supplements to fill the void.
Kevin says
There are 5 “Blue Zones” in the world. These zones define the longest lived people on our planet. Only 1 of these communities are vegetarian and 4 eat meat . just saying! 🙂
Olive says
Actually most are vegetarian and some eat fish (mostly sardines)
Louis says
Actually the Sardinians diet is the only full vegetarian blue zone, the rest are semi vegetarian meaning they consume meat but there diet is still built around veggies, the Okinawan diet is a perfect example of semi vegetarianism as they eat mainly veggies but they do eat small amounts of fish and squid daily and they also eat pork as delicacy of sorts on ocasion and if you look at another blue zone which is in Costa Rica they consume beef, chicken and eggs every day and even have a high consumtion of fried food such as plaintains and eggs but they eat alot veggies to round it all out. The one thing all these blue zone diets have in common is the high consumtion of legumes
Steve says
I just wanted to clarify the Costa Rican diet. We don’t really eat a lot of vegetables. Most of our diet is starch-based, and we love to fry our food. You can do a google images search for “gallo pinto costa rica” and “casado costa rica” to see what our main breakfast and lunch/dinner dishes are. The Blue Zone in Nicoya eats the same diet as the rest of us do throughout Costa Rica. It is thought that perhaps the reason for the Blue Zone in Nicoya is actually because of the mineral-rich water, since their diet isn’t any different than the rest of CR.
Judy Sangillo says
The people in the Loma Linda community who were profiled in Blue Zones were all vegan or vegetarian, including Ellsworth Wareham, the heart surgeon in his mid-nineties who had been vegan for thirty years. I recently read an update on him; he’s now 100 and still going strong as a vegan.
Vixxi says
Your information is incorrect. Sardinians eat more meat then all the other blue zone groups, namely pork. I’m not sure if any of them are fully vegetarian and certainly not vegan. I also just recently read someone who said they were from Sardinia, and they had this to say, which I was surprised by and it makes me want to visit there myself and find out what’s actually true “The whole low on meat aspect is actually pretty inaccurate. I’m Sardinian and there wasn’t a single day we didn’t have meat, and in central Sardinia it is normal to eat whole roasted bores at least once a week. Fatty meats are essential for a healthy nervous system. Also, we don’t eat much pasta. That’s an Italian thing — and we aren’t Italian. Grain products such as breads and pasta cause inflammation of the arteries which leads to heart disease. Cholesterol is a must in a diet and is needed to repair such damage, but when eaten in conjunction with damaging grains, the cholesterol keeps piling on to fix the damage causing clogging of the arteries. Also, the sudden blood sugar spike pushes cholesterol into the fat cells which otherwise would be used to maintain the brain and nerve functions. Seafood is also a big part of the diet on the coast as well as local wild plants and fruits. But you won’t see a meal where chicken, or pork, or beef, or donkey, or horse isn’t on the menu.”
I read that they are a frugal people, making simplistic meals and having a fun perspective of the world, time having less meaning and stress being rare.
I honestly think diet has less and less to do with health, in comparison to mental health. If you’re wanted and loved or stubborn, you’ll live longer. Which is why all those cultures have family, camaraderie and usefulness no matter the age in common.
Unwanted people die sooner regardless of a good diet. Being apart of a community and being social.
The mind has a lot of power, for all we know many of the effects of any diet might be placebo considering placebo can have an effect on actual health, not just feeling better.
On the subject of diet though, I think any diet that requires supplements is not optimal.
But like I said, I think the brain has a lot more power on health then food does, considering it controls all the signals that make us healthy, or unhealthy including cortisol, insulin etc.
Vixxi says
To add, because I couldn’t find the edit button, another Sardinan said this “To the man who claims he’s Sardinian. I am Sardinian, born and raised and I cannot relate with any of the statements you made. No bread or pasta? We’re not italian??? LOL So when exactly did Sardinians seperate from Italy? Why didn’t they send me a letter? Nobody told me. I’ve been living a lie for 63 yrs, wow. All this time thinking I’m italian and yet the whole time I wasn’t. Why did they teach us italian in school, it was a mandatory class. We had to learn Sardo and italian. How peculiar. Pistoccu, Pane Carasau, Su Coccoi, these popular and ancient sardinian breads that I’ve been eating since birth must have been a figment of my imagination. I can’t really remember eating donkey or horse, mostly porccedu, lamb, and fish, even lumachi. I have family in the north and I reside in the south, yet we seem to eat more or less the same things, differing slightly. Very bizzare.”
Which still suggests that being vegetarian is not a thing there. But it does pose confusion on the actual diets. I would love to visit there and see it for myself.
Judy Sangillo says
Vixxi, the tiny Sardinian community with unusual longevity that was profiled in Blue Zones is not reflective of Sardinia as a whole. It is a tiny mountainous community where even fish consumption is rare. They are not vegan but are nearly vegetarian. Read the book; I think you’ll find it very interesting.
I agree with you that diet is not the entire reason some people live longer. You touch on something very important there. The people in all the Blue Zones are an active, appreciated part of their communities into their 90s and beyond. And they are physically active all their lives., not by going to a gym, but by climbing mountains, farming, etc. However, the dietary factors common to all the tiny Blue Zone communities is that they eat mostly whole foods, including lots of beans, whole grains and vegetables, and not a whole lot in the way of animal protein.
Pree says
(They’re probably eating boars, not bores, although I do understand the temptation.)
danaleck says
WRONG!!!!
Except for the Sardinian diet, the majority of food consumed is derived from plants:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Vendiagram.gif
danaleck says
My previous post was directed to Kevin
Alicia says
Can you please at some point comment on this new alleged vegan D3? I’m withholding judgment about whether it is truly D3, but my attempts to google it only yielded articles questioning whether it was truly vegan.
holnrew says
The vegan D3 comes from lichen and is approved by the vegan society. Here is a paper providing evidence that some varieties of lichen produce D3
http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func=downloadFile&recordOId=133512&fileOId=624375
Erica says
Flamed. My position is both flexible and examined sufficiently to be unshakable! On the one hand the decision will more and more be taken out of the hands of individuals as the price of meat continues to go up and the big new money invests in meat replacements. Meat is simply unsustainable on so many levels and the way information travels now the back door secrets that kept it looking clean are out of the bag. But I just don’t think most people who defend it are aware. You can still easily avoid knowing about the industry. If you do learn about it there is no way you can’t begin to try to make the switch. This country runs on the endless silent scream of animal abuse – millions of sentient creatures a day suffering and being tortured silently and without pause or recourse. It’s interesting – you can see by the 1000 comments here it is the hottest topic around. I feel hopeful. Slightly. In the meantime I also hope for the end of mankind! 🙂
James says
You hope for the end of mankind? Humans are sentient beings too. To hope for the end of mankind is to hope for the end of billions of sentient beings.
Erica Martell says
Nice comment Ramon. As always vegans consider the whole and meat eaters talk about themselves. For people eating McDonalds Paleo is a great advance but it’s largely a money making concept for a few of it’s promoters. Vegetarian, or preferably vegan, eating is conceptually worlds ahead as it takes into account the economic and spiritual whole and not just the needs and preferences of the individual. This is the key fact that people who eat meat simply cannot wrap their heads around. Their comments are always about “I”. It’s why there is no ability to dialogue.
drew.. says
I absolutely agree Erica.. and you will likely only get flamed for such comments as anything else will force a person to look in the mirror and truly see their choices for the darkness they represent. Most do not realize it was choice made for them while they were infants and to awaken would mean to admit wrong and to do the same onto their parents.. Interestingly, it is of no shame to be caught up in the status quo when information was harder to discern, but today, such is NOT the case.
drew.. says
and btw..dropping any comments here will increase your spam content dramatically.. if you enter a real eddress.
Kevin says
There were no hunter gatherer vegetarians.
Ramon Medinabello says
Are we to believe the musing of a man who eats the same, or tries to eat the same diet as our ancestors did over 5000 years ago? Despite all the science humankind has uncovered, technological advances and the whole wealth of food we have available today he still thinks a caveman diet is optimal? Does he not realise that caveman had no nutritional knowledge at all and simple scavenged around and pretty much ate whatever he could find? Which was by the way mostly a whole foods plant based diet with little meat if he could get his hands on it. Personally I prefer to look to the future not the past for my dietary needs. I have been vegan for 20 years, vego before that and have never broken a bone or been to the doctors or had any health issues whatsoever. My eyes are perfect, blood test showed no deficiencies so to say that vegans are deficient in all these nutrients and minerals is inaccurate. In the interests of full disclosure, I do take B12 and D, not that I was deficient as I wasn’t, more of a precautionary top up and its so cheap.
gray man says
Then stop taking B12 and D if you are so healthy.
I have been eating bacon and eggs every morning for breakfast for over 30 years straight. All my bloodwork shows the body of a much younger man. I’ve never been sick or gone to the doctor for health issues. Nor broken any bones.
By the way, evolution does not work the way you seem to think.
Carrie Wilcox says
No kidding. Please explain to us how Evolution works.
Kevin says
animals around the world have no knowledge of nutition (as per our hunter gatherers) yet they eat what is optimal for their survival?? You think modern processed foods are superior to old fashioned non-processed foods?
Judy says
Ramon didn’t say anything about processed foods, Kevin. I’m not sure where that came from. And hunter gatherers ate what they were able to find, which varied from one region to another. They didn’t (and many couldn’t) in some magical way eat what would be optimal. Evolution only cares that a species stay alive long enough to procreate, not that it live a long life.
Judy Sangillo says
Congratulations on your good health and sensible outlook.
Ash says
ANY diet can be missing crucial macro and micronutrients. I wish folks that practice carnism would also write articles on the negative health benefits of animal by-products and how a carnivorous diet also leaves a lot to be explored. There are always articles arguing one way or the other, but what everyone should be arguing for is better education on what our bodies need and not some stupid social tug-a-war over personal choices and lifestyles. There are tons of resources out there about the proper way to live vegetarian and vegan lifestyles, but not too many on how to eat animal by-procucts in a proper way aka not over doing meat consumption because it is just as harmful to have too much of certain nutrients as it is to have too little.
JessManhire says
Totally agree that it doesn’t matter what diet you eat just as long as you don’t get too little or too much of the nutrients. I think a vegetarian or vegan diet is the way to go as it’s ethical but you have to do your research and not just cut out meat products. Organic foods also have more nutrients than non-organic so that has to be taken into consideration. Cronometer.com is a great website to measure the nutrients you are eating and is based on the best research out there – not all research is perfect yet but it is a good guide to give you an idea.
Angela says
Wow — I have been vegan over 25 years. Raised three healthy kids to adulthood, (all still vegan) nursed them a total of 8 years. At every stage, they were healthier then any of their non-vegan peers. They have never had antibiotics, never broken any bones, They are intelligent, athletic and kind!
But what I want people to know is this: I had health challenges along the way — for example, at one point, for almost a year, I developed chronic fatigue, no surprise my first concern was that it was because I was vegan…but I was simply not willing to consider giving that up, so I searched for other things to try — it turned out, I had a root canal from years ago, that had failed. Thankfully a good dentist helped me figure it out, and once it was all cleaned up, I fully recovered.
So glad that I did not give up my healthy vegan diet mistakenly!
I
Kevin says
I have eaten meat for 58 years and have also enjoyed perfect health. No antibiotics etc! well done.
Kendelle Trotter says
Was that sarcasm I sensed? If so, you really ought to look back on that comment. Her point was that you can be just as healthy, while also being ethical, with a vegan diet. Of course, the slight implication that a vegan diet is superior to a normal diet health wise is silly, but the rest is perfectly logical.
KevinsUniverse says
Kevin, funny how vegans care so much about the planet eh? meat eaters can rejoice as the world revolves around themselves… If a meat eater actually considered that animals have consciousness, considered his own jaw chews and grinds side to side rather than snapping up and down, considered the impact of the meat industry on our environment and finally considered anything beyond “I”, just perhaps they wouldn’t write a farcical article like this to justify and console other meat eaters into a belief that actually it’s ok. To Mr Grayman “I eat bacon and eggs every day”. Why not use the less poetic approach? remove the camouflage and absorb the fact you’ve been eating slices of slaughtered pig corpse, the unfertilized chicken embryos were probably free range so you can feel better about that right?
Prometheus68 says
“unfertilized chicken embryos”
You do realize that there are no chicken embryos in unfertilized eggs, right?
KevinsUniverse says
This may in itself be a valid reply Prometheus68. However it does not address the point in question and adds nothing of real value. You do realize that your pedanticism “speaks volume”, right?
Carrie Wilcox says
This is true… they are actually a hen’s menses.
Carrie Wilcox says
Been to the Dr lately? Had the ol’ cholesterol checked?
Judy Sangillo says
Angela, thank you for sharing your experiences, which have been similar to mine. My two older children, raised vegetarian, were healthier than most of their peers, and my youngest, vegan since conception, at age ten has been even healthier than her siblings were. No antibiotics, no stomach issues (throwing up? what’s that?), never misses school. It’s not genetic, as my husband and I were both frequently sick as kids.
Adam Stansbury says
We can all argue the nutritional science until we’re blue in the face, there are studies that obviously show benefits of living an animal or plant based diet either way.
The one fact that you can’t ignore is that a living being must be bred, fed and intentionally kept alive in order to kill it, how would you like it if your execution had been planned before you were born.
I turned Vegan a couple of weeks ago after becoming fully aware of the inhumane and unfair suffering that we put on animals not to mention the environmental damage that is now being caused by animal agriculture and population increase.
Whether the nutritional science is for or against it, we as fellow species on this planet with finite resources will need to change our eating habits in the years to come to avoid the environmental costs that future generations will have to bare.
In my mind my selfish reasons for following an animal based diet are not justification enough anymore to be part of the torment, torture and environmental damage.
It’s worth finding a way to get all that we need from plants.
You may want to watch these documentaries, as they may help you to take a different look at your decisions:
Carrie Wilcox says
Didn’t know links worked here. Thanks for posting that 🙂
Roy says
Hopefully one day soon, synthetic meat can be produced and bypassing the biologically expensive requirements of growing everything else present day livestock requires, would be a great benefit to everyone.
Animals would not need to be farmed for their meat. The resources used to grow the meat would be used more efficiently. There would be no moral or ethical dilemma. We would all eat to satiation and live long, fruitful and happy productive lives.
One day…
Jason says
The problem with ur statement of how someone would like it if he is bred to be killed doesn’t count when animals aren’t self aware like humans are. plus, the selfish reasons for killing animals to eat meat are justified something with there is a physical or emotional need for it and if u try to make the killing as painless as possible. Desth is natural
Martha Harrison says
I went vegan for a year a few years back. Decided I would eat vegan from Jan. 1st to Dec. 31st, and just see how I felt. I am a woman in my early 60s now. Anyway, I researched for months everything I needed to know about being vegan – prior to starting – and felt very comfortable with the eating changes I would be making. My observations are this: I wasn’t as tired on the vegan diet, I actually spent less money on food on the vegan diet, and overall I think it was okay. There were two problems I, personally, had with it. First off, I had tremendous cravings for meat, eggs, milk, dairy. These were easy to deal with, for the most part….but it did bother me. However, more importantly – again, in my opinion – I was sick constantly. And I mean constantly – colds, flu, sinus infections, bronchitis, more colds and upper respiratory infections, and then more colds and flu. I was sick more that one year than the previous 10 years combined. So….I quit. And, have only been sick once since. I added back meat, eggs, cheese, milk, yogurt to my diet. Overall, I learned a ton being vegan – and believe it or not – I would recommend it to anyone to try for at least one year. For me, it just didn’t work. I learned so much though – and I still eat many of the new dishes I learned to make/cook when I was vegan.
drew says
With respect, and thank you for a thoughtful discourse, but you were not experiencing sickness, you were experiencing your body ridding itself of a lifetime of toxins.
Every acidic body experiences this, the severity of which depending on the level of toxicity. Tis a shame you gave up without better understanding the internal cellular processes. You were getting close! To be alkaline is the key to health.
Prometheus68 says
How, then, does your “detox” hypothesis explain Martha’s remission after she reintroduced animal products back in her diet?
As for your opinion that she should have continued this diet in spite of the ill-effects it was having on her, the following Einstein quote comes to mind: “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
drew.. says
It you re-read my comment without bias or without need to protect that which you are used to, the answer is clear:
Once the body starts to detox, and STARTS is the key here, the exiting toxins will manifest in what mainstream would identify as dis-ease. After many decades of poor health decisions, do you expect any body to shed a lifetime of ills quickly?
A return to the status quo simply shutdown the detox process, that is why dis-ease disappeared. It is very elementary once you see it.
And make no mistake, proper nutrition is only one part of a multi-faceted approach to true detox.
katarina says
I have a son who was being fed a healthy vegan diet for the first 2 and 1/2 years of his life. I let my son experience chronic colds, sinus infections, bronchitis and eczema without me even realizing that it might be extreme nutritional deficiencies causing this.
And yeah, I am completely sure now, that it wasn’t detox because that poor child of mine had no previous ‘lifetime of toxins’ period since he was fed such an excellent diet since childbirth.
He is 6 years old now and he is still calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, zinc and B6 and B12 deficient! Thankfully, he is not so sick like he used to be anymore.
With my daughther I decided to take a different path and feed her liberal amount of animal products, especially the ones that come from our own family farming.
Luckily my daughter is stronger, taller and calmer than my son and what is more important is that she is rarely sick. How does that make sense with this crazy detox idea?
drew.. says
let me guess: fully vaccinated, surrounded by electricity, covered in sun-block, fed non-organic food.
Kids these days barely stand a chance on being healthy with the extent of the lack of knowledge coupled with the zealous need of everyone to defend the status quo.
Serena says
I was vegan for first 4 years of my life and extremely HEALTHY. For various reasons I then transitioned to ovo lacto vegetarian and am now eating primarily vegan again and couldn’t be happier than the couple of years where I did introduce more animal products into my diet.
Gerald says
hey Drew, since you’re making us BC boys look bad with your comments here, maybe it’s better to back up what you say with some scientific references. Open the door for us, don’t ask to blindly trust a random dude on the internet. Nothing of what you say resonates with me on any level, not a single word; it all sounds like horse sh*t. So if you want to convince anyone of your hypotheses, send us some info (keep the naturalnews, realfarmacy, mercola, etc. to yourself).
If you have enough energy to comment here, you hopefully have enough energy to go this extra step. Otherwise just keep your comments to yourself next time.
drew.. says
Geez whiz Gerald, given your thoughtful, kind and polite nature, i am sure i will take the time to help you.
And what’s more, i am sure i will filter ALL my sources to fit to a mainstream library, where all the nonsense lives.
At least my profile is public. Feel free to come to my wall and ask direct, polite and thought-out questions.
As for the off-hands rude comments, you only reflect your own bias and negativity with such displays. Cheers.
Birch says
EXACTLY what I wanted to say. Oh and yes, we should totally toss vaccs out the window because you know, who the HELL wants to protect their children from diseases that killed and harmed so many? Why protect our children from the sun and how dare we feed them wholesome animal AND vegetable foods? —– seriously Drew, you are probably a really nice guy but I think you read too much pseudo-science on the interwebss. 😉
Gina says
I agree with Drew. You were detoxing.
Steve says
Liver cells have a lifespan of approximately 150 days. How can somebody have these “detox” symptoms for an entire year?
MrCuddles says
Liver cells can regenerate.
David says
the cravings for milk and cheese are because cows milk has a chemical in it that acts as an addiction for the calf, making it want to suckle as much as possible… you get the same effect on the human body, EXCEPT THAT YOU’RE NOT A CALF
Dan says
Should totally Detox within 7 days, heavy metals within 3 month’s, 12 months to detox? we change out our entire body’s immune system, blood, not to mention the vast intakes of water/fluids, and shedding of skin, 6 months your hardly the same you, detoxing for a year that is In-sain,
Cat says
I became extremely sick as well on a vegan diet, mostly with severe chronic fatigue and depression. Considering Blood Type, it was not for me. I now eat a mostly vegetarian diet and some animals that are ethically raised and treated. I realized there is a balance that needs to happen and I got back in touch a bit with the food chain and how the universe really works. Besides that, some of the vegans I know are some of the most extreme personality types, obsessive, and condescending types I’ve ever met and I frankly got tired of listening to them all the time. I get veganism, I do. But it didn’t work for me and I hate how they look down on everyone who eats a little animal protein here and there or gives up on the vegan diet because it’s not right for them. As well, I have to say that not many of my vegan friends looked very healthy at all – sallow, prematurely aged complexions on most of them. Some of them already showing signs of ostea spine curve. Cutting out so much from my diet caused me to crave more and more carbs and pretty soon I was making myself sick from too many grains, legumes, corn, and starches. There were only so many nuts I could eat and soy products don’t agree with me, nor does wheat gluten. You may have become sick from the grains. Some of them do not agree with a lot of people. I am a book-seller and kept selling this one book, Dangerous Grains. I never read it but will at some point.
Judy Sangillo says
The blood type diet theory was debunked last year in a study at the University of Toronto.
Dreasan says
I had been afflicted with gallstones and kidneys stones at 17 years old. My parents, poor as we were, couldn,t afford the expensive $3,500.00 operation back in the ’70’s. So I struggled with the pain. I asked GOD for help. Show me, lead me, open the path for me. HE did indeed. It came in the form of 2 books, 1 on fasting and the other on a specific diet.
I tried the diet first which helped to alleviate the pain, but I wanted to dispel the stones. I did 4 consecutive fasts. After the fasting, the stones were no longer present which shocked or amazing the quack of a doctor that I was seeing at the time. At that point, I decided to stay with the diet which evolved into a vegetarian diet. I had asthma at the time also and it was no longer present. I was a vegetarian from 1973 to 2006. Long time huh!? Somehow, I took to using drugs and now everything is much worse!!! I’m planning on going back on the vegetarian diet by the Spring of 2015. I’m going to gradually re-introduce myself to this excellent regimen.
Why? Because it’s the best alternative to taking a pharmacy full of medicines and going “Under the Knife”!
MrCuddles says
Well the next time you get into a car accident *bless that you may not*, instead of going to the hospital, tell your parents or friends that you’re gonna pray to God and eat some green leaves. I bet that’s gonna help you a whole lot!
Wendy says
Ah man! Isn’t it obvious by now …?!
People are not machines or clones of each other. ‘One man’s meat is another man’s poison’ and all that. We each need to eat what’s appropriate for us as individuals. Therefore, ALL of the comments here are ‘true’ for some of the people some of the time, but they are NOT true for all.
Consequently, any generalisations made from cherry-picked studies (and all of us have a tendency to cherry-pick studies whose conclusions align with our personal biases) are, ipso facto, false. And any prescriptions any of us might want to make for the entirety of humankind based on our personal biases would result in poor health for all those people who don’t thrive on the same diet as us. Where’s the compassion in that?!
I have a small organic farm where volunteers can come and work for a while. I don’t farm animals for meat but I do keep poultry for eggs. I eat a predominantly vegetarian diet with occasional locally-sourced, traditional and individually-reared animals. I have yet to have a single vegan volunteer who had the power, strength and stamina to do the work. So it strikes me as wickedly ironic that if missionary vegans had their way (and there seem to be an unfortunate prevalence amongst vegans of people who’s sole mission in life seems to be to brow-beat the rest of humanity into their totalitarian utopia), then it’s unlikely there’d be anyone left actually capable of growing the world’s food …!
SvenTheBold says
“Consequently, any generalisations made from cherry-picked studies (and all of us have a tendency to cherry-pick studies whose conclusions align with our personal biases) are, ipso facto, false. And any prescriptions any of us might want to make for the entirety of humankind based on our personal biases would result in poor health for all those people who don’t thrive on the same diet as us. Where’s the compassion in that?!”
This is a wonderful example of the appeal to balance fallacy. When you say that there can be NO prescriptions applicable to the whole of humanity, what you are really saying is that there is NOTHING that *everyone* shares in common. This is false, both with respect to biology, and with respect to everything else.
I respect the notion that we should avoid “over-generalizing,” but we’ll all gain more of truth by us each attempting to justify whatever generalizations we make, so that our multiple perspectives remain focused on the same viewed object of the world.
David says
you say don’t lump everyone in together, because one mans this is another mans that… yet you lump all vegans into a weak, lazy group?? there are many vegan athletes, and many many many weak and lazy meat eaters
perhaps the vegans lacked the motivation to help you because they didn’t agree with what you were doing… just a thought… remember, vegan is not a ‘diet’, its a lifestyle, based on ethics and morals
Erica Martell says
Neda,
Read my comments below. Check out Dr Ritamarie Loscalzo, The Vegetarian health Institute, Dr. Michael Klapper…. You just need some information. You can add iron to your diet by using a cast iron pan, by adding acids such as lemon to vegetables, by chewing more completely, by supplementation. But you don’t want too much iron either, as it ioxidizes or “rusts” in your body, in essence. Go to http://www.vegetarianhealthinstitute.com where you can find this informaiton in very simple short form. Or just google your questions “How to get more iron from a vegan diet.”
Marco Polo says
The author was never a vegan. That’s for sure! Probably too scared to try. I say, “fine”. Go on eating and promoting your carnivore lifestyle. Then when the joint pains, high blood pressure, and related sickness begins, take prescription medications- and go on laughing at all of your healthy vegan friends who keep on looking younger and healthier than you and your stupid doctors.
I was a vegetarian for 45 years but recently switched over to vegan 24 months ago and never felt better in my life. My digestion is great, metabolism is normal without food cravings, emotionally happier, doing lots more exercise including 200+ push ups a day. I’m 63, male, 5’11, 185 and have a 331/2 inch waist.
Doing just fine, my carnivore friend. While you’re following your doctor’s advice for pain and inflammation, I’m playing golf, tennis, going to parties and enjoying living.
Aly says
Here are the flaws within your argument: 1. You are using anecdotal evidence. Congrats, you claim you feel great on a vegan diet. That is not science. 2. You imply, without evidence, that omnivores need pain medication, have high blood pressure, feel unhealthy, etc. These are just your assumptions and emotions talking. Did you not read the study mentioned in the article? Both vegetarians and omnivores are likely to have similar longevities provided they are health-conscious. There is a way to eat a clean, nutrient-dense, fresh food-dense, unprocessed diet that involves salmon and meat. Unfortunately, the standard American diet includes a myriad of fast food, junk food, and desserts. Maybe that’s the cause of some health problems, no? 3. You fail to acknowledge that all humans are different. While you may thrive (or at least claim to thrive) on a vegan diet, there is evidence that plant based diets can cause chronic illnesses. I am exposed to these cases all the time, since I am one of them. I know giving up meat is both addictive and rewarding, but remaining so emotionally close-minded and assuming everyone else is unhealthy is unfair, biased, and destructively dogmatic. It also sounds like you didn’t read the article. I wish you the best.
Cat says
Great way to be a snooty, condescending vegan. Maybe vegans should work on that – not stepping on everyone else’s feelings, while they are being kind to animals, by taking cheap pot-shots at people for not being vegan. You catch more flies with honey than putting others down.
Erica Martell says
Rima – Check out resource Vegetarian Health Institute where you can find very simple information on cooking, food combining to avoid nutritional deficiencies – things like how to get more iron and calcium out of your food, how to combine food, best choices in sweeteners, breads, alternatives, recipes. It’s a wonderful resource. Also check out Dr. Ritamarie Loscalzo. I think her website is drritamarie.com. She has beeen vegan for 25 years and has raised both her children as vegans. She just knows what she is doing. This topic has over 900 comments, many from people who are in a rage. One thing I notice which is why there is no concensus – vegans are talking about ethics and the whole and meat eaters are talking about themselves. All the nutrirional issues people bring up about veganism can be easily resolved with some focus and attention. The resources I mention above are a great start. The problem is veganism is simply more advanced and most people aren’t interested in a commitment that goes beyond their own immediate desires or they aren’t able to manage the focus and change required. That’s all their anger really speaks to. Yes people have tried to take on vegan diets without much information but that information is available now. There are also now very advanced cookbooks on making vegan cheese, dairy, etc (The Gentle Chef) or try Yoram Ottolenghi’s amazingly sophisticated cookbooks Plenty and the newly released More Plenty. As you focus you will realize you have to give nothing up to not participate in the horror we perpetrate on sentient beings whether we let them eat grass or not. Ah, also try ordering the vegan chocolate caramels with sea salt from Amella in CA!! Good luck!!
Rima says
Even if animal products are good for your health, as the author claims, you have to pay a fortune for grass fed/organic butter, meat, cheese. I have made up my mind, I am going vegan and trying to make good choices for my children (9 and 5 years old).
Any difference between a vegan diet for adults and a vegan diet for children.
Thank you
Aly says
You do not have to pay a fortune for grass-fed meat, especially if you eat 1-2 servings a week. Please do not make assumptions.
Birch says
It is REALLY important for your children to be getting good levels of fat for brain development. If you need to ask on a blog comment section about the difference between a vegan diet for children and adults then I suggest you hold off on making that change for your kids. Keep them on their whole fat milk , cut out processed foods. Buy ethical meat – it does NOT need to be eaten each day. Maybe 3 times/week. Some free range eggs, healthy greens and whole grains.Toss out the Mac n cheese, Pizza Pockets and white bread. Throw away the Koolaid and fruit juices, give them whole fruits and lots of fresh water.
In the meantime, YOU become vegan if you wish and after a period of time , after you’ve learned the ins and outs of veganism and figured out how to prepare healthy meals that include all the nutrients you need, THEN see about how to extend that to your children if you really feel you want to take them off of meat/dairy/eggs.
It’s a big commitment and please for your kids health, make sure you have learned what you need before changing their diets.
You might find that doing the above – throwing out the processed carbs, sugars, artificial colours etc might be enough. Being vegan isnt healthier if you are still going to keep in all the other junk. Just something to keep in mind.
MrCuddles says
Don’t force your children into doing what you think is right.
Karen says
This is just BS. Is anyone dumb enough to believe this? Has anyone used their common sense? It is not natural for any animal to drink breast milk after infancy. Especially the breast milk from a cow, that milk is for baby cows, not humans. Our NUMBER 1, 2, and 3 killers are linked to eating animal products. This article cites references of old data and is just an old way of thinking. I would not be surprised if this originated from studies done by the meat or dairy industries. You can find data to back up any claim you want, but the NEW science is proving the vegan diet is the most healthy diet you can be on. It can reverse heart disease (number 1 killer), diabetes 2, and more. I went vegan because I was on an omnivore diet after a check up. My blood test were very bad. A year after being vegan, my blood work was PERFECT. I have more energy, my face cleared up, my joints stopped hurting, my hair got really healthy looking and I feel GREAT. I had digestive problems my whole life and now I am “normal” for the first time ever. I have vegan food that is fortified with B-12, my almond milk has twice the calcium as dairy milk without the fat and hormones and without making my blood acidic. Today’s animals raised in factories don’t get B12 because they don’t eat in a pasture. They are fed GMO cheap soy feed filled with antibiotics and hormones and are given B12 supplements so meat eaters get their B12 second hand. The iron you get from meat is not the good iron. Please educate yourselves. This data is weak, it used small samples, it’s old and it is just not good science. Another thing to consider is that an omnivore diet is not sustainable. We are destroying our planet and our resources raising animals for food and it won’t last forever. It takes 2,500 gallons of water to produce one pound of meat. Water is getting scarce. Animal agriculture contributes 51% of our greenhouse emissions. We are eating our way to a dead planet riddled with diseases, illnesses and cancers, and let’s not forget, the medications we take and our healthcare cost. There is but one solution. A vegan diet.
yengamatic says
Where are those studies? At least the author made the effort of providing citations. If you believe those are outdated, erroneous or biased, you should prove it wrong by providing alternative literature.
Neda says
Hi
Its near a year that I am in plant based diet and I get problem with iron deficiency , my hair falls alot and my teeth is near to crack , please help me I love being plant based but I dont know what to do?
Justin D Hunt says
Hemp seed and pumpkin seed have a ton of iron, only need a few servings to get your DRI
David says
dark leafy greens 🙂
Judy Sangillo says
Always consume plant-based iron with a food high in vitamin C to ensure absorption. Beans, dark leafy greens, pumpkin seeds, and nuts are all good sources of iron.
Craig says
Corn, wheat, and soy are killing the environment. Grass fed animals, rather, have a beneficial impact.
drew says
“Corn, wheat, and soy are killing the environment” ..
And where do you think a VAST majority of this crop goes? Given the starving nations in the world, is sure as shit isn’t them.
.. It is to the animal agriculture business. Wake the hell up.
Judy says
Not true. Grass-fed cattle emit even more methane than grain-fed.
Valeria says
Exactly my thoughts. Especially because, even if all the points made by the author would be true (which I doubt, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt since he does provide references and he has done his research, although it might be outdates) they would all be invalidated by the fact that animals GET supplements themselves. “While it may be possible to address these shortcomings through targeted supplementation (an issue that is still debated), it makes far more sense to meet nutritional needs from food.” good morning sunshine, go tell it to the cows who get calcium and B12 added to their feed. Where is the twisted logic, that we eat animals who got (huge amounts of) supplements themselves, or that we consume (collectively smaller amounts of) supplements ourselves? You have done some research. Do some more. And use your logic better.
Gina says
Good one! Your point makes a lot of sense!
Birch says
hm, maybe you should compare the nutritional composition of a Deer, Elk, Moose or other wild game with a cow and tell me why the cow is not higher in vitamins then? If indeed as you say, meat is only more nutrient dense due to vitamins put in the feed. Wild game has no additional vitamins added to their food. Just leaves, berries etc.
What about long chain fatty acids? or any of the other nutrients?
Please research your facts before making such incorrect statements.
Alicia says
Factory farmed animals need vitamins for the same reason vegans need vitamins: their diets are unnatural and inevitably deficient.
Also, we’ve bred dairy cows to give obscene amounts of milk. It makes sense that they couldn’t possibly keep up with their increased calcium needs from diet. Modern cows need calcium supplements because of what we’ve done to them.
Hugh Lovett says
B12 I’ll give you, isn’t that bacteria based from what animals eat though not produced by their actual meat?
The rest is so flawed it’s unbelievable.
Karen says
Agreed, this is something the meat or dairy industry would put out there. The references were using small samples and the research was old. 1999, 1994,etc. The NEW science and research is proving that a healthy vegan diet is the healthiest there is. It can reverse heart diseases and diabetes among others. Not only that, an omnivore diet is not sustainable. If people stick to this diet, we will use up all of our water, land, and oceans to find ourselves a medicated, ill society with a polluted world. Not to mention the cruelty involved in a meat diet! How can you NOT take that into consideration? It’s not morally right to harm animals like we do if it is not necessary.
Gina says
So true!
Peony Prashanti says
well my doc said, people will either die of cancer, heart disease, or diabetes. But “you” will live forever. Been an vegan all my life. 56 and strong bones, had 8 kids, dn’t drink dairy, eat lots of leafy greens. Who ever wrote this article is stupid
Birch says
“Who ever wrote this article is stupid” — What a really insightful comment. Why don’t you look into all the research done yourself and then you can also call all those researchers stupid as well and feel REALLY great about yourself.
prema says
I agree with Peony…..that is because anyone can take the research which begins with bias to begin with and then reduce it to whatever they want…..read Kris K’s article on baking soda…..now there he is totally wrong in my book and you will find half the research in favor of what he says and half totally the opposite…..pick whatever you want…but in my book…..murder is murder…..we live in modern times … we can get vegetarian food all year round..eating flesh is just plain murder and violent……if you don’t know that then you are just not very evolved…..sorry…….
Jonathan says
Murder is technically unlawful killing. Its why when people say “Thou Shall Not Kill” in regards to biblical referencing they are a bit off.
Killing that’s not against the law is not murder.
Now law as a concept is completely man made so if its a law to you personally I guess you could call it murder under your “law”, but I don’t personally agree so its not murder to me.
I think people likely do eat more meat than they need, and eating less is a good idea. I don’t believe eating none is necessary or useful though. I think its much easier to stick to a diet that includes Fish/Seafood, Meat, Nuts, Seeds, mostly non starchy vegetables, small amounts of fruits and little to no grains.
Large amounts of unused carbohydrates is what creates most of the health problems not animal foods.
There are plenty of perfectly healthy people that eat animal foods. There are even some who do well with almost all animal foods just as there are those that do well with mostly plant foods.
I think it boils down largely to different ancestral makeup. Some have ancestors that ate more meat and some less and their systems are used to the different combinations.
I still think it pretty interesting I have yet to have any vegan/vegetarian actually refute or explain the reason why every animal except for humans who are meant to eat plants and only plants like herbivores change most of the plant matter into fats which is than used for fuel.
Humans do convert to some extent, but don’t have as large or complicated digestion to allow for most of their energy needs to be from fats converted from plants.
Humans who eat large amounts of starches or fruits derive most of their energy from carbohydrates and not the conversion of carbohydrates into fats through fermentation in either multiple stomachs or fermentation vat intestines like Gorillas have.
Maya Ganesh says
I’m a vegan and recently got my blood tests done. I’m free from any deficiency and attribute it to a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle. I do not take any supplements. You could be vegetarian, vegan or a meat eater and still have deficiencies if you don’t eat a balanced diet and lead a healthy lifestyle and you could also be any of these, have a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle and not have any deficiency.
Michaelb says
Cherry picked data. Do your own research from several sources including the American Dietetic Association which notes that a well balanced vegan diet may be the most healthful.
yengamatic says
Where are those studies? At least the author made the effort of providing citations. If you believe those are outdated, erroneous or biased, you should prove it wrong by providing alternative literature.
John says
Are you paid by the author to respond to all people questioning his article?
Daniela says
Before you make a decision on what diet to implement in your lifestyle, you MUST read “Food Matters” and specially “Forks Over Knives” which are documentaries available on Netflix and show studies regarding foods and diseases caused by foods. They are life changing. Check it out!
Aly says
Haha. “Before you make a decision, you MUST watch 2 incredibly biased documentaries that use propaganda.” I recommend people just try the vegan diet themselves and see how they feel long-term. I’ve watched enough people’s bodies slowly shutting down to know it’s not sustainable for *most.* and every vegetarian I know (without a chronic illness) admits they have some health problems that they know are causes by lack of meat. It’s a religion, though, so they won’t change their diet or views.
kristin melissa o'g says
Here’s the thing abut what you just said though, because i have thought much about this topic and done much research: i can take my vegan friends who have health issues and look at their family members who eat meat and those family members also have health issues. i know soooo many people with health issues and so few without it really has more to do with the generation we are in and the toxic environment humans have created for themselves.
many times i know veg clients and friends who tried going paleo or eating some fish or meat to see if they would get better, and they didn’t.
many meat eaters are also very deficient in vitamin D and in B12.
What I see, as a practitioner who works in an integrative pharmacy, is it turns out it has much more to do with whether they got the proper immune support at birth, what good or bad bacteria their mother (and possibly the hospital if c-section) had or didn’t have to innoculate them with at birth, whether they were breast fed, whether they were exposed to foods that their immune system was or wasn’t ready for at a young age, whether they were exposed to vaccines, anti-biotics, GMO foods, pesticides; what genes and mutations they were given, etc etc…
so really it is much more complicated than just adding or subtracting animal flesh or organs to a diet. adding meat to a diet does not equal health, we all, including the very intelligent author of this article can agree on that.
most important is the amount of stress we have and the sources for our foods and medicines, and maintaining a healthy microbiome aka gut, as well as the quality and purity of everything else we put ON and IN our bodies.
Considering ethics and the greater good is sooo what we need right now in our world, so i support everyone who is doing that and changing for the better, whatever level they are ready for whether Paleo and choosing their animal medicines very very carefully, such an upgrade compared to SAD and fast food culture, or veggielicious folks who should also be choosing their food as medicines very carefully and making sure to choose Organic and Beyond Organic. I also support everyone on both diets to supplement to make up for the previous generations toxic creations, to make up for the over zealous use of anti-biotics and to make up for all of the pollution.
supporting the body with extra nutrients, nutritionally dense superfoods like chlorella and dulse, stress preventing adaptogenic herbs like holy basil and rhodiola- this is where it’s at in this day and age. the plants and mushrooms and bacteria have much intelligence beyond what we comprehend and can truly help us in our evolution. <3!
(thanks for the inspiration and for your awareness everyone!)
gray man says
“i can take my vegan friends who have health issues and look at their family members who eat meat and those family members also have health issues.”
And I can take meat-eating friends and my meat-eating self, who have no health issues and say the same about our vegan family members. Except that every vegan I know has health issues.
Dave says
Wow, your sample size of 1 vegan is really impressive!
Julia says
I’ve been vegan for 6 years and never been healthier! Lol
holnrew says
I’m vegan and I agree with this article. I get annoyed with all the pseudo-science spouted by other vegans, plenty of it in the comments here. Veganism is an ethical stance, nothing else. I take a multivitamin designed for vegans, as well as a high strength B12 tablet and a vegan source of DHA/EPA. Some things you can’t get at all from a plant based diet, an many things not enough of. It’s better for me not to worry.
I do have a vitamin D deficiency (I’m a fairly new vegan, most of it will have occurred while on a vegetarian diet), so I got prescribed high strength, non-vegan D3 pills. When it comes to medication I take what I’m prescribed. My health comes first.
David says
if you’ve got a Vit D deficiency, get outside some more, it’s really that simple 🙂
Dave says
Its not that simple if you live in higher latitudes, like New York or Toronto.
Sally says
I find it very interesting that the majority of the “anti” vegan/vegetarian comments are full of typo’s, incorrect spelling, incorrect use of punctuation, and grammatical errors… That, in itself, speaks volumes. Yes, I am a vegetarian working towards becoming vegan.
Prometheus68 says
This is too funny. The plural of typo is “typos”, not “typo’s”. In this single case, you have both made a grammatical error and made incorrect use of punctuation.
What speaks volume is your inability to write a 4-line post without making your own mistakes, while having the audacity (or smugness) to put down others for the same.
Prometheus68 says
volumes
🙂
Ricardo says
I’m currently a vegetarian and I’m curious what does grammar and spelling have anything to do with one’s nutritional choices & beliefs?
That is what I call a stupid comment.
David Young says
Such a mess of poor information. Veganism works just fine, and if you have problems with it, look at your diet. Vegans tend to have LESS b 12 deficiency than carnists, among the many unfounded points spouted on this silly page.
Prometheus68 says
The statement that vegans have more B-12 deficiency than omnivores is hardly unfounded:
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Jul;78(1):131-6
Am J Clin Nutr 2009 May;89(5):1693S-1698S
Dan says
“Some obscure species of mushrooms can provide large amounts of vitamin D, but these mushrooms are rarely consumed and often difficult to obtain. ”
White button mushrooms are obscure and difficult to obtain? They just need UV exposure and they’ll produce vitamin d.
Christopher Grove says
I knew that this subject would garner a lot of feedback. *grin*
I find it interesting that some people think that we have to “rise above” and develop such an overt sense of compassion toward animals that we have to stop killing/eating them now.
We evolved over many, MANY years… MILLIONS of years, “killing” both animals and plants. What is it about “compassion” that some people think that we humans should evolve differently from other predators?
I’m sorry… but SCREW compassion if it means that we have to decidedly evolve to fit YOUR sense of morals. A tiger, sentient or not, kills other animals, sentient or not. That is simply how our part of the universe works! (And probably other parts of the universe.) Let me repeat, THAT IS HOW OUR PART OF THE UNIVERSE WORKS! Compassion has little to do with it! NONE of our life on Earth has evolved through compassion! Symbiosis, yes, compassion, no!
If a giant eagle (a sentient, high-reasoning one, let’s say) swooped down and picked me off to eat me, I’d be effing pissed! But I wouldn’t blame it for eating the poor human with its sad, doe-like eyes!
Which brings me to this… I think that this generation’s problem is that we watch too many cute kitty and puppy videos!
I will eat what I do not have a personal attachment to and I will not eat what I prefer to pet and scratch behind the ears! And the self-righteous people who think that they wish to grow more spiritual than me can have-at it at their own expense!
And IF you think that I am thoughtlessly immoral and am going to some kind of hell because I don’t have a spiritual life then let me just say, my link takes you to my book on my sense of spirituality the short version of which is, “True, divine Life is not held within the flesh”.
Do I believe in compassion in my life? Yes! Do I think that we should treat animals with compassion? Yes… up until we slaughter and eat them!
Cheers!
Christopher
Laurie Conrad says
Christopher are you suggesting the world needs less compassion? Are you sure this is what you want to suggest? That’s the thing about cognitive dissonance. It causes us to do one of two things to relieve the uncomfortable feeling it causes to have this conflict. We either change our values to reflect our actions. Or we change our actions to reflect our values. It appears you have changed your values. Because I know you value your own life and I know that you enjoy living in peace – I assume you would not enjoy living in a concentration camp or a war torn area. We all know that bad things happen. That some animals eat other animals. We know that we ourselves would not want that to happen to us. And we know that we have a choice not to eat others. Regardless of whether or not others are eating others – that is never a reason to say that something is ok to do. It doesn’t mean the bird is right or wrong in what it does. It means that to know what is right or wrong you must only look at yourself – not the actions of others – and ask yourself if what you are about to do is the best thing you could do or if you could do better. Ask yourself if what you are about to do to another is something you would be ok with happening to yourself. You have already answered that one. I am an atheist btw.
Christopher says
I don’t think that you paid any THOUGHTFUL attention to my comment!
No, I don’t think we need less compassion. I think we need less emotional attachment to creature-hood… and kitty and puppy videos!
1/ If another animal ate me, I’d hate the fact that I would be ripped to shreds but I could hardly deny its cosmic right to doing so. I could only try to avoid it happening.
2/ I believe that true Life and Consciousness is NOT part of the flesh. I don’t really care if you are an Atheist or not or whether you think I am calling that Life and Consciousness God or not. But if some government edict were to suddenly be put into place to stop killing and eating animals I would be on the wrong side of the law.
3/ I DO believe in compassion, up until I slaughter and eat the animal which I have a cosmic right to slaughter and eat. It also has a cosmic right to try to avoid being eaten if it somehow senses what’s comin’!
I don’t know if you are a farmer or not but it is a common issue that people divorced from the food chain get all weepy-eyed about killing animals for food.
I believe that one day this phenomenon will be taken to an extreme and we will be attaching human rights to puppy-dog-eyed robots or robots that are made to look like human nannies and we will one day make a law against the so-called “killing” and “abuse” of said robots. We already see hints of this when people respond to their GPS’s comments, Furbies, their tablets, etc.
This tendency toward this anthropomorphization and personification of both animals and, in the future, robots, is nothing short of a sort of insanity.
Christopher
Mats Carnmarker says
Do we need less “emotional attachment” to our neighbours and other people around us?
Or are we humans “above” all other species?
Are are you one of those who believe humans to be holy?
What I hear from hunters is that they live the correct life style eating healthy natural food. So are they so special that only they should have the right to live that “perfect” life style?
Imagine what would happen if all 7 billion humans on Earth would hunt their own food!!!
We’ve killed off over 80% of all other living creatures (insects not included) in less than 150 years.
Cows, pigs and other animals bred for consumption derive from wild species. They were taken into breeding because they were easy to handle. The cows wild ancestor was driven to extinction as soon as we had large enough production of cows.
NOW, just because we want or can eat meat, do we really have to behave just like other animals that don’t have our brain capabilities? What are our brains worth if we can’t understand and give compassion to other species? How evolved are we really?
Some become vegan or vegetarian because they don’t want us humans to keep on treating other species in such a cruel way as we actually do. Most wild species don’t have to live a life in torture as do most of the animals we breed for consumption.
Give all bred animals an NORMAL, NATURAL, and HEALTHY life and when the time comes for slaughter then do it in a compassionate and understanding way. Understand the species you breed and slaughter. Every species needs to be treated differently. For ex, a cow will stress out immediately as they see the trucks that transport them to slaughter, already understanding what is hell is ahead of them. Don’t fool yourself into believing that other species aren’t intelligent and that they don’t have conscious awareness. That is just and excuse for mankinds mad behavior.
P.S. I’m a meat eater. But I buy meat from sources I can check are treating the animals well, local farmers, etc. I gladly pay between 2 times to more than 5 times more for this and that with a VERY low income. I work for an NGO.
Gina says
Amen!
Faith says
Could it not be possible we are evolving toward a plant based diet/vegan lifestyle? And to prey on an animal is one thing but the current way the majority of humans “prey” is not alright. It goes way agains nature to breed, torture, name and then slaughter an animal for consumption. Not to forget the global impact it has. When an owl swoops down to pick up a mouse and eat it, it isn’t using 50,000 gallons of water and leaving the mouse in a cage where it can’t move for days, raping it and stealing it’s offspring to feed off it’s milk and then eating some hormone infested form of it.
David says
mate, come on… are you really comparing yourself to a tiger? an animal that eats EVERYTHING of the animal it kills… it doesn’t skin it, cut off a small chunk, then season it, then COOK it… it has a biological system to deal with processing meat… check out our biology, we don’t… we share nothing with carnivores, or omnivores, but our biology is the same as a herbivore… also, you are not a predator… if you have a pet cat, or a pet dog, for example, this is why you don’t attack it and rip it to pieces, you love it and enjoy its company… you also don’t run into a field and attack a cow… you have been sold a product, an ideal that meat is necessary for humans… animals kill for need, humans kill for greed
Prometheus68 says
You are setting up a straw man argument there David. Of course, humans are not exclusive carnivores like tigers but we are if fact biologically well-adapted to digest meat and assimilate nutrition therein. Humans are opportunistic eaters, and can sustain themselves on a wide range of diets, from all living kingdoms (which make humans, by definition, omnivores). Here is an intellectually honest perspective on human omnivorism from a vegetarian resource group: https://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm
That said, just because humans *can* extract nutrition from meat doesn’t necessarily imply that they *need* to do so to get adequate nutrition.
Cat says
Thank you, Christopher. After becoming a sick and exhausted vegan and spending too much time around self-righteous vegans, this is the same conclusion I came to myself. Death is not a pleasant business for any living thing and it will come one way or another and me being vegan is not going to halt the food chain. I make ethical decisions around how much meat I will eat and how it is fed, raised, and even slaughtered. Animals die worse deaths all the time on their own….I had the misfortune of getting in with a group of fanatical vegans who just couldn’t shut up about so many things all the time, I developed a case of PTSD listening to them. There was no way to have just a normal dinner with them without talk of animal abuse or vegan canine diets or vegan wines (those not filtered with animal guts) or putting down meat-eaters or comparing chickens to domestic dogs and cats. I felt like I was at an AA meeting a few times being introduced at the start of my starting to become a vegan “as on my way” . They didn’t know I was that into the idea or not at the time…. I tried it and it didn’t work and as well, I got really tired of the extreme company it caused me to keep.
Cat says
One of the really strange things I ever heard from my vegan friend was that if we all don’t eat animals, eventually racism and discrimination of all types will be wiped out….
Vicki says
My vegan husband and I are currently trying to get pregnant and I have a dirty secret; I have been sneak-eating meat. I was a pescatarian (eating fish very seldomly) for about six years and then went back to eating meat for about four years before I met my husband, who is an outspoken vegan. I was always interested in veganism, since there is still a great deal of cruelty that goes into mass produced dairy, so I decided to go vegan for my husband about a year ago.
My husband has been vegan for about three years, so he helped me make the transition to veganism, but it hasn’t really gone very well from the beginning. I know many people feel wonderfully healthy when they eat vegan and I soooo wish I was one of those people because I have an emotional investment in making veganism work for me. I believe it’s a good way to be and I want to support my husband and not cause any rifts between us, but after over a year I’m coming to terms with the fact that I’m not doing well with this lifestyle. I keep trying to adjust my diet to include more protein and vitamins/minerals I may be missing, but I still end up sneaking meat. I’m starting to wonder if my behavior is turning into a type of eating disorder. I don’t want to lie to my husband anymore about my diet.
We’re trying to get pregnant right now and this brings up even more conflicting feelings for me. I want to honor what my body is telling me to eat without lying to my husband. I don’t want him to tell his friends how healthy I am during my “vegan” pregnancy. I don’t want to ban my children from eating meat or dairy if they are more like me, but I don’t know how to tell him any of this because he gets really emotional about the issue.
Currently, I bought a few meat products that I keep at work and eat a couple of time a week for lunch. My mom also occasionally brings me eggs from some backyard chickens her friend keeps as pets, which I have brought into our home. My husband eats these eggs from time to time and will also eat any animal products that were going to be thrown out (leftovers from the office, etc.), but is very opposed to me buying animal products. I’m planning on staying at home when our baby is born and won’t be able to hide meat at work anymore, but mostly I just don’t want to lie about this. I would like to go back to being a pescatarian and feed my children mostly veggie with some fish/poultry and eggs.
What should I do?
Daniela Soledae says
Vicky,
I would love for you to watch “Forks Over Knives” and “Food Matters.” It might help your case:) Good luck!
Alicia says
She says she is physically unable to stick to a vegan diet and that her non-vegan vegan husband is adamant that veganism should be enough for her to be healthy (forget fertile!) just because he’s healthy on his non-vegan vegan diet. And you suggest that she watch a movie so intellectually dishonest it’s insulting claiming to prove that a vegan diet without enough fat to even absorb the fat soluble vitamins in veggies is the only way to avoid a painful demise? That strikes me as rather sadistic.
And yeah. Listen to your body. My motto: when it comes down to pleasing the author of some book (who you will likely never meet) and your own body, go with your body. I didn’t do well on vegetarian OR low carb paleo. Note: this advice only applies to food that has some arguable nutritional value. If you’re craving cookies there is a reason for that too, and you should find out what it is, but eating more cookies is unlikely to be the answer. Sleeping more, increasing or decreasing your carbs… But fish, eggs, steak? Those messages are real and true.
If you want to get pregnant and have a child with the best chance at health, eat not just fish but also eggs, and some grass fed dairy if you can handle it. Grass fed butter (vanishingly small amounts of lactose and casein) if you can’t. If you crave red meat, eat it too. Trust your body – there is something in it you need there. Most cultures make a point of giving extra animal food to pregnant women, not asking them to grow healthy babies without adequate nutrition.
As far as your husband, I don’t know him so I don’t know how to break the news. But it seems like pointing out that he’s been lying to himself about the adequacy of his “vegan” diet and has got a lot of gall asking you to do what he won’t would be one bullet point in the thing.
Reading some ancestral eating websites on fertility/pregnancy/nursing diets and shoving them under his nose would be another. Whether they are strictly accurate or not (my gut says 80% true, 20% overblown) is immaterial to the goal of converting him to allowing BOTH of you to eat a complete fertility diet.
Good luck with Project Baby!
Trinn says
Ask him what’s more important to him a happy healthy wife and child or his moral standpoint? If he’s happy to eat animal products that would go to waste he’s not so vegan after all. I know vegans that would starve to death before they ate animal products again. So it’s time for him to jump down off his high horse and let mamma do what she needs to do. Your body is telling you what you need. Take care and best of luck with your new family
Gina says
So true. If he eats meat occasionally then he’s not so vegan to judge you for eating it occasionally either. So you should tell him definitely.
Christopher Grove says
We have an example here of a common situation. Vegans who are not really vegan and whose health is the result of occasional meat eating. And I’m sorry, but I get very pissed off at people who say that it is perfectly healthy to be vegan and yet sneak meat and animal protein on occasion and I believe this to be the norm!
There are NO, NADA, NONE long lasting societies who lived as vegans. Period!
For the 2.5 million years that we have been human, including the 200,000 years or so that we have been “sapiens”, we have eaten meat!
steven says
Ummm the Brok-pa Ayrans have survived on a vegan diet for 5,000 years… Do your research before you talk crap..
Prometheus68 says
The Brokpa are not vegan. They include butter, mutton and goat milk in their diet.
http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/S-EM/EM-02-0-000-08-Web/EM-02-2-000-08-Abst-PDF/EM-02-2-077-08-099-Bhasin-V/EM-02-2-077-08-099-Bhasin-V-Tt.pdf
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041107/spectrum/main1.htm
Honora says
Took your advice…and did the research. Ta Dah!
“Brogpa vary with respect to the amount of meat (mainly mutton) that they eat. Household’s economic position decides the consumption of meat. It is only during festivals and rituals all have greater access to mutton.[5]”
Bhasin, Veena: Social Change, Religion and Medicine among Brokpas of Ladakh, Ethno-Med., 2(2): 77-102 (2008)
kristin melissa o'g says
There is wisdom in all that. Discuss it with him as a medical issue, you are having food cravings, that is soooo normal. Consider getting an integrative doctor who specializes in C.A.M. or functional medicine who can do your full profile to see what you are missing, and also check what you are “sensitive” or allergic to.
Cravings come from different reasons- the mind seeking comfort, our microorganisms (good and bad) seeking food, our nutritional needs. Whatever your body is trying to get- it could be iron, could be protein- then be sure to supplement it using whole food based supplements in the best possible form. Consider: the super nourishing Health Force Nutritionals “Vitamineral Greens”, and their “Warrior Food” for protein. Also consider taking the vegan DHA and Methylcobalamin (active form of b12). or ask your husband if he would agree to you eating fish once a week or taking fish oil for now. There is a great vegan prenatal by Kind Organics, a super ethical 100% non-gmo vitamin line.
PS. Most lunch meats have preservatives like BHT so they really aren’t a good thing necessarily.
JessManhire says
Hi Vicky
I would suggest you get regular blood tests done to see if you are deficient in any vitamins and minerals. It is always best to listen to your body but there could be some other reason you’re craving meat and it might not be protein you need e.g. you are not eating enough. If that is the case maybe try eating more or eating high calorie foods like avocado or nuts. I’m no nutritionist but they’re some thoughts that come to mind. You’re body will be trying to find ways to make up for the extra nutrients you need during pregnancy. I’m sure if you explain that to you’re husband then he’ll understand. I’m vegetarian but have always said I will have meat during pregnancy if I need it-best to not take chances during this crucial time. Perhaps see if you can get the extra nutrients with plant foods first. Hope that helps.
Barb says
A well-balanced plant-based diet is clinically proven not only to meet all of our nutritional needs, but to offer important benefits that protect us from all of the most common chronic and life-threatening diseases. Here are a couple of examples based on peer-reviewed scientific research:
– Kaiser Permanente Health System encourages all of it’s doctors to recommend their patients adopt a 100% plant-based diet. https://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html
– The American Dietetic Association position on vegan diet states that 100% plant based diet is healthy and protective for people of all stages of life, including young children and pregnant women. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
Prometheus68 says
In the first article you cite, the authors include ovo-lacto vegetarian and mediterranean (allowing small amounts of fish, poultry and red meat) as types of plant-based diets. They do not make a blanket recommendation for a 100% plant-based diet for everyone.
The second article you cite refers specifically to vegetarians (no meat and seafood, but allowing eggs and dairy), not strict vegans. Here is the relevant portion of the abstract, in proper context:
“Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients.”
Katie Reardon says
What would you recommend for someone who is has a severe dairy/egg/wheat intolerance? When I go out I usually say I’m vegan because it’s just easier for restaurants….when they know what vegan is……
Thanks!
Dave says
I’m not sure why people get their undies in a bunch over this.
There’s other articles on the internet that show the downfalls of eating meat.
Kresser is just pointing out the potential deficiencies of a vegan diet.
Just like Dr. Greger points out that meat consumption increases disease.
It’s not a big deal.
Cat says
It depends on the type of meat as well and it assumes no one is going to glut on it. Grass-fed meat is not bad for you.
Jack says
I do agree with this article. I am a US citizen but lived in other countries also. I know family and friend who are Diary farmers in their 80s and going strong. My grandfather was a farmer passed away at 98. The typical diet consist of meat and more meat and maybe some vegetables on the side. This whole tree hugging, animal loving idea only applies to the USA specially metropolitan areas. Sorry to be blunt, but some people live in their own bubble and need someone from outside to wake them up. You will live longer if you eat whats necessary for your body to function, low level of stress and exercise. I am a science major, studying to become a physician. Good luck.
Erica says
Two points – many if not most people who are vegans are ethical vegans. That means that taking a vitamin B12 supplement is not a reason to start eating sentient beings raped and bred for our pleasure. Do many people do vegan wrong? Yes – but most people do food less than optimally no matter their diet. Instead of warning people against vegetarian/vegan diets Chris has more than enough information to instead instruct people on how to maximize iron and calcium absorption from vegetable sources. Yes plant cell walls are harder to break down than animal protein cell membranes. Chew. That’s the difference. A squeeze of lemon on broccoli makes iron more bio-available. The fact that Chris knows this stuff but intead couches his article as though there are no easy solutions to promote his paleo protocols is what feels disingenuous to me. If you want more information on better balancing ALL plant eating check http://www.vegetarianhealthinstitute.com or http://www.drklaper.com which offer information geared towards those issues we all know exist but few penetrate to the point of tweaking their diets to include. You are not what you eat but what you absorb, whether vegetarian, vegan or meat-eating.
Gina says
Right on!
Kai says
Vegan friends,
Kindly quit looking for ways to be offended by this article and thus responding with varying degrees of outrage. As human beings, it can be a very uncomfortable thing to receive new information that conflicts with our current beliefs… yes, I get that. I understand. The knee-jerk response for a lot of us is to become angry and defensive when this sort of thing happens, it’s not an uncommon phenomenon.
But the mark of a truly intelligent and rational mind is to be able to accept new evidence that conflicts with one’s current beliefs and adjust one’s behaviors and ideas accordingly, rather than desperately clinging to the familiarity and comfort of one’s current path while frantically attempting to rationalize doing so.
Facts are facts, and this article is dealing in facts. Your anecdotes about how you’re vegan and haven’t yet reached a state of B12 deficiency do not count as empirical evidence.
Quit with the tired argument that “true” veganism doesn’t include soy products or grains. That is just nonsense and a blatant No True Scottsman argument. All vegan diets are, by their very nature, “true” vegan diets. And let’s get real: most vegans eat fake meats made of soy, as well as tofu and the like. Don’t kid yourselves.
The average American eats junky foods in massive quantities and would benefit from switching to any diet that emphasizes fruits and vegetables, vegan or otherwise. This is why so many feel like going vegan has improved their health – it has! But any relatively healthy diet is going to make you feel better than eating McDonald’s and KFC every day, it doesn’t need to be vegan to be worthwhile.
Leeann says
Loved your comment, Kai. Reasonable and thoughtful. I would like to try vegetarian, as I’m not a big meat eater. I don’t eat steak or ribs and would be thrilled to never eat ham or chicken again. The problem is I don’t like the taste or texture of most fruits and vegetables. (Just smelling a mushroom makes me to gag.) I’ve been trying, and I have expanded my vegetable tastes a little over the last ten years. Your specific comment, “any relatively healthy diet is going to make you feel better than eating McDonald’s and KFC every day, it doesn’t need to be vegan to be worthwhile” makes me feel much better. Thanks!
Jackie says
I get a checkup yearly. Every time my doctor is amazed at how great my results are. I am EXACTLY the average weight, I am EXACTLY at the average height, my blood pressure is PERFECT, my vision is 20/20 my hearing is 20/20 and the doctors never have anything to say about my health other then it’s great. Oh, and guess what? I am a vegan! I think that was self explanatory and all I have to say is that vegetarians and vegans are very healthy.
Krin says
Hey, guess what? That applies to me too. And I’m NOT a vegan!!!! Wow!!!! Anecdotal evidence doesn’t mean anything!!! Welcome to science 101!
Alessandra Martellacci says
If you can read and afford to grocery shop, being a healthy vegetarian or vegan is not hard. It is only those who do not do their research, or worse, ignore what they know that end up unhealthy.
I have been a vegetarian for a decade and my boyfriend has never eaten meat in his life (raised by vegetarians). Neither of us take supplements. Neither of us are deficient in anything (not even that pesky B12). Neither of us are scrawny or fat. Of course, I cook most of our meals at home and I put a lot of attention and care into making sure that what I put in our bodies can sustain us and sustain us well.
It’s not rocket surgery, folks. It’s just food.
Nick says
This article is not remotely balanced or impartial. Whereas certainly some micro nutrients B12, Zinc, Iron, perhaps others, have long been known to be reduced in a standard vegetarian or vegan diet, the benefits of vegetarianism were not properly stressed nor the true picture represented. I feel it is important to treat veganism and vegetarianism entirely separately to avoid confusion and not lump them together to bolster a case against them.
Meat consumption, particularly processed meat, is strongly implicated in a range of serious conditions, such as the major killer bowel cancer as well as cardiovascular conditions. There are also studies such as those major studies of Seventh-day Adventists which have no ‘healthy user bias’ as they come from a highly comparative group with similar restrictions on other lifestyle factors between them. Those results were a marked 5 YEAR reduction in life expectancy for meat eaters.
David Spiegelhalter, professor of the public understanding of risk at Cambridge University indicates the loss of life to be as losing one hour per day for the eating of processed meat.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28797106
There are conflicting large-scale European studies which suggest that this may not be as marked in difference between non-vegetarians and vegetarians. The accurate picture is the jury is still out. It’s either a major benefit or perhaps no difference – take your choice.
cellisis says
never think twice about going vegetarian! just do it and you’d be happy and healthy forever.
cellisis says
btw, avoid soy, corn, wheat stuff as well, since they are mostly GMO, which would harm your body sooner or later.
Rob13 says
Awesome write up Chris! I tried veganism at one point in my health journey. Although I had some initial success and starting feeling a lot better in the first few days, I did a lot of damage after sticking to it for too long.
For me it was mostly the high intake of carbs that messed me up. I was too reliant on fruit and grains. My teeth started breaking and rotting, I aged an expedite rate and I eventually started losing all of my energy, strength/muscle mass, and became depressed and unable to focus.
Primal style eating (with my own additions and restrictions) and SCD style preparations has saved me.
Right now I’m undergoing a 21 day ALL meat and vegetable diet and documenting the whole thing on a blogger page I created just for that purpose. If anyone is interested in seeing the effects of a restrictive diet like this I encourage you to stop by and read through. I’ve been taking photos as well and will be adding them as visual documentation as well.
http://meatandvegetablediet.blogspot.com/
Thanks!
-Rob
drew says
Thanks Rob, will you also be blogging about the animals that must die for you to experiment on yourself? Seems only fitting as you are blogging about other essentials like how your nose itches..
Ahhh the levels of narcissism reigns high on the internet. But indeed, so long as the status quo allows you to avoid confronting the murdered animals for your experiments, have at it. Their anguish, in the form of chemicals dispersed in their dying flesh will just do you wonders.
Gina says
🙂
Cat says
Grow UP! Why don’t you try compassion for people too who had to try something else? If you can’t say something entirely condescending and just plain mean and ignorant, say nothing….
Cat says
You sound very covertly and overtly narcissistic. Holier than thou – everyone else is a sinner….
Paul says
We hate to break it to you, but it’s not like the man has his own dungeon full of animals just for himself. Him doing or not doing his dietary experiment is not going to suddenly pull the meat that is available for him to purchase off the shelf. Believe me, someone will buy it. But it won’t be you, obviously. But it will still go to someone’s nutritional benefit, like it or not…
Cat says
Rob – Same thing happened to me. I got really sick with chronic fatigue probably due to more reliance on grains and legumes. Have switched to a more primal diet and I feel must less bloated and exhausted and foggy all the time. I became really depressed as well. I’m still healing from all that. I also did not eat wheat and still felt bad. I noticed that a lot of my vegan friends look older than they should for being so healthy, supposedly. Not to mention sallow-complected.
Brian says
My Fiancee and I are currently switching over to a Vegan diet. In addition, we are trying to keep our diet to organic and Non-GMO veggies. However, we plan on keeping our vitamin regiment, which has B12 as well as other things. This blog did not impact us on that decision, we just like taking our vitamins. We are excited to get started and are on our way to a healthier lifestyle. We are finding it a mind set of thinking we need to eat meat more than anything else. In fact, it seems that what has really been engrained into our minds over the last 50 years is that if we don’t eat meat then we will get sick and die. I am not buying it anymore; the story or the meat.
Sara Elle says
I found your blog searching for “normal deficiencies with vegan diet” as I just got back from getting my blood work checked after being vegan for a year and wanted to brag to my omnivore friends. You see, everything came out perfect, – even B12. I do not take any supplements 🙂 My doctor just kept laughing as he checked off everything down the list while exclaiming “perfect! perfect! perfect!”. That’s never happened to me as an omnivore. Also, I am rid of all my allergies, asthma and skin conditions since going vegan 😀 Also feel clearer in my mind, and rid of PMS, which I used to suffer greatly from! I could not be happier with this lifestyle and recommend it to everyone and anyone!
Jennifer L. says
See, like someone else mentioned above, it depends on who you are. I spend a lot of time tweaking my diet to fit MY needs. When I find what my body likes to eat, I eat it. I don’t shout it from the rooftops–“Hey everybody! I always have really great lab results (I always do)! Come eat the way I eat!!” I was vegetarian for nearly half of my life and vegan for three or four of those years. When I became pregnant, I added fish and liver back into my diet. I’d rather get my vitamins from food if possible. While I am nursing my kids, I add more animal products to my diet. When I am beyond this stage of my life, I might go back to being vegetarian if that is what helps to keep me healthy. I feel pretty good on a vegan diet when my body is not working over-time keeping up with small children and breastfeeding! In addition to eating well, I also sleep, exercise and enjoy my life.
While it’s fun to sit around and nitpick which diet is best for ourselves and the environment, we have to mindful of where people are in their lives. The fourth-generation pure vegetarian is still a human living on this planet, as much as the kid who is being raised eating burgers from McDonalds (I’d like to think this is a trend of the past, but judging by the lines at the drive through, we’re not there yet). We all have room to contemplate the bigger issues at hand and make decisions about what is ethical, moral and responsible. It’s easy to point fingers at who is wrong and who is right, but it’s harder to teach people to really listen to their own bodies. No one gets a gold star from God when they die based on their holier-than-thou dietary principles.
Ed Cummings says
Looking at the comments below people have success with vegan and vegetarian diets whilst others have not had success. Thus one has come to conclusion that any diet shouldn’t be treated as one size fits all solution when it comes to human health considering that everyone’s nutritional needs are different. Now if you have chosen your diet due to animal welfare and/or environmental concerns then one should keep an eye on research in these areas since it constantly changes to a point were their may longer be an issue- http://www.ciwf.org.uk/media/5234769/Nutritional-benefits-of-higher-welfare-animal-products-June-2012.pdf http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/sustainable-livestock-production-is-possible
Mia says
I hate “fake meats” and never eat them. I eat a crapload of vegetables, usually just a bunch of roasted veggies for dinner. Some fruit. I eat a ton of salads. I also use quinoa a lot. I don’t use nutritional yeast or Bragg’s or anything like that.
I have been vegetarian for over 20 years and did a raw vegan cleanse for a couple of months. I could never be raw long term. (although it makes you poop like a champ!)
I started eating fish about a year ago. No desire for any other meats.
Have been having extremely, extremely heavy periods for about 2 years. Elected to have some iron tests done and I am, indeed iron deficient anemic. Doc said to just get on iron supplements and that although heme sources of iron are absorbed more readily that it doesn’t matter, just eat veg if I want and it is all about elemental iron. I’m going to see how well I absorb the supplement. I eat a ton of non-heme iron. I just started on a heme iron supplement, so we shall see.
Chica T says
I’m been vegetarian for 40 years, and I’ve been eating a mostly plant based diet for the last 6 years, with full veganism for the last 2. I very rarely eat soy, usually only when someone has made it for me, and I eat very little cooked grains. I eat semi raw, lots of sprouting, seeds and nut cheeses, fermenting vegetables and making raw sprouted breads, and I feel great. I do take vitamin d3, k2 and b12. My weight is ideal, I have very little aches and pains and enough energy for a nearly 60 year old. It’s not for everyone, but meat-eaters seem to get very upset about veganism and I’m constantly challenged when it’s mentioned. I don’t lecture people on what they should eat, so therefore I feel it’s very rude when I’m told that my diet is wrong.
Shari Burckhardt says
I find it interesting that this author lists vegan/vegetarian diets as low in vitamin D. Seeing as how most vitamin D is not gain through any diet but from exposure to the sun I wonder why it was included here. There are no significant food sources that fulfill human need for vitamin D. If there is a large amount of vitamin D in any food source, such as vitamin fortified milk, it has been added to that food source. Essentially the manufacturer is supplementing your diet with the needed vitamin. Research has indicated that a significant number of humans are vitamin deficient when it comes to D because of the use of sunblock and lack of exposure to sunlight. If this author can be misleading on this it brings into question their credibility as a whole. It would have been nice to read a better researched article.
Richard says
Chris’s article does have just enough mis-information in it to bias the reader against a vegan diet just like he intended. Many comments also show the writer’s ignorance on nutrition and what a vegan diet consist of.
After enough years of eating the Standard American Diet (SAD) there is no other diet shown by research to reverse heart disease other than a vegan diet. Maybe future research will show that near-vegan is enough to reverse the damage to arteries but it has yet to be performed.
There is no world standard for a vegan diet so for Chris to say it includes refined grains etc is just garbage input. Sure, one can follow a vegan diet of only French Fries and ketchup but what published doctor is recommending that? People like Drs Fuhrman, McDonald, and Ornish have published books reflecting their recommendations and none recommend refined grains or processed foods be consumed in any significant amount. To reverse heart disease it is recommended that daily fat calories are less than 10% of total daily consumption, reduced salt intake below government recommendations and very little animal products which includes meat, fish, eggs, and dairy.
If you find the requirements too strict do not follow it but do not knock it till you have research that shows there is something better for reversing artery damage. Go have all your heart operations which you will find do not reverse your disease and have a good day!
D.K.Schmidt says
Due to a heart attack at age 49.( no iI didn’t have high cholesterol or high blood pressure) I have gone to a vegetarian diet. The best long term studies I could find point to a strict vegetarian diet to decrease or reverse cardio vascular disease.
At this point the evidence has proven to work for me. I was on all the traditional heart medicines that were prescribed for a heart patient. A statin, blood pressure medicine, daily aspirin and others. Due to a great doctor who monitors my blood and other numbers every six months. I am now down to just the blood pressure medicine to keep my heart rate down just as a precaution. I am sated in my eating. Have never felt healthier and the numbers prove it. Eating grains are not an issue to most people but it has become the buzz word I would recommend if grains bother you try heirloom grains which many find they can metabolize just fine even with gluten. Examples are einkorn flour.
Charles Morton says
Chris states that i gets “cold” after eating a vegetarian meal.
That is downright silly. I start my day off with a combination of beans, greens, nuts, grains, and fruit. I forget about food until the end of the day when I remember that it is time to eat dinner because it is close to 6:00 pm. I live in Northern California in a coastal aea and wear a short sleeve shirt year round supplemented by a cotton pullover and a heavier coat she it gets really cold. My absence of meat, chicken, eggs, cheese and other animal elements has absolutely no bearing on my body heat. I am 60 and have been primarily a vegan for 4 years and definitely will not be returning to what I was weaned on. Sometimes I go to France, and consume all that France has to offer in the way of food, but I can tell you after a couple of weeks of that, and the odor of my smelly poo, it is a relief to get back to plants.
Anthony says
Struggling vegan here. Been vegan for almost a year – eat whole foods and rarely junk too :/ Looking for a meet-in-the-middle to my love of animals but to still have optimal health. How do you feel about the Pescatarian diet with regards to optimal health?
Shari Burckhardt says
Have you ever checked out the Engine 2 cookbook? It’s a cookbook by a guy named Esselstyn. His recipes have been tested out on his fireman coworkers so you know they are guy approved. http://engine2diet.com/recipes/favorites/ It might give you a few ideas to spice up your menu and get balanced nutrition.
Alicia says
She didn’t say she needed yummier recipes. She said her health was faltering. And if she’s poking around on websites trying to find the least un-vegan diet that will cause her to stop feeling like hell, I’d say the probability is she’s already tried improving the nutrient density of her vegan diet.
As far as the original question, a pasture raised egg a day, a can or two of sardines a week, and three cans of oysters a week will correct basically every deficiency in an optimally rich vegan diet. Add a few ounces of gouda a week and you’re even getting K2 and rounding out any calcium deficiency you might have.
Jesse G says
the truth guys is that in this modern age people are eating TOO MUCH of everything, especially in America. too much meat and too much vegetables; we are overabundant and bankrupt. whatever our beliefs are, scientific or not, eating too much is just as harmful as not eating not all. we oughta see how our parents and their ancestors ate and kept themselves healthy when they had to eat for their lives.
PJ (RightNOW) says
Good grief! Chris I’m thinking most of these people must have found you through a search engine, since given your average blogging, this just doesn’t seem like a real common place for (clearly emotional-about-it) vegans to hang out in general. Somewhere around here I have a Minger Squirt Gun.
Shelley Watkins says
I know hundreds of vegans, including Olympic and other professional athletes and I have been vegan myself for eight years. We are all super healthy and rarely get sick. Read “The China Study.” The people in regions of the world that are vegan live the healthiest, most disease-free and longest lives: fact.
Anofuctus says
I was a vegetarian during the years 1974-1976. I had to do this because of my poor health. Gallstones, kidney stones, asthma, hay fever, and I couldn’t put on any weight.
It was pretty tough giving up the animal products and finding substitutes, but with the help of books and practicing TM, I became successful with my change in eating with my new diet. Eventually, all of my ailments disappeared which I hadn’t notice at all. I simply felt better and I was able to do so much more. After 2 1/2 years of vegetarianism, I decided to join the Marine Corps to get out of my neighborhood. I tried to adhere to the diet while in boot camp, but the physical demands of the training was beginning to take a toll on my body so I gave in to the animal products, but I only ate what was needed and always left portions on my tray. I continued to TM which helped a great deal. I worried about my recent ailments which I hopefully had eradicated, yet, they did not resurface for almost 25 years!!! I’m going back to being a vegetarian when I reach my ’60’s and to be honest becoming a vegetarian during that time actually saved my life.
Richard says
Without concerning ourselves with all the pollution created to produce the animal protein in the typical Western Diet, I like to know how you meat-eaters think the world is going to feed the whole world the Western Diet after the developing world is developed and expecting the same diet.
Going to have to be some real miracles in agricultural technology given the size of the earth…
Frank says
From a psychological point of view, it seems a lot of these diets and perhaps an extreme over interest in the subject of health, comes from a place of emotional turmoil. In the same way people who run for 20+ miles a week, or girls who develop anorexia, you’re using your body as an outlet to shield you from your problems or serve as something you can act out on. Which by the way, would also be why discussions about this topic on the internet tend to turn into insane screaming matches.
Kay says
Very astute observation, Frank. I read a blog about a woman who spent a lot of time denying how sick she was getting on a vegan diet and then as a feminist realized how oppressive and self-abusive it was all getting to be before she wised up and started eating what her body really needed to survive and heal the problems that her vegan diet caused. It was a really interesting read and she cautioned women who have ever had an ED (eating disorder) to be very careful with the vegan thing – that it can be a cover for self-restriction. As a failed vegan, myself, I can’t tell you how many rail thin and totally anorexic women I saw who were vegans. Your comment and this other woman’s blog makes a lot of sense. Veganism can become a covert, feminist oppressive issue as well.
Ruth says
I’m not vegetarian but I shop every week in a health food shop. For years I have tried out all kinds of different diets all of them promising something and none of them delivering. In the end, for me personally, eating for a healthy life means not eating white foods (especially not sugar), making sure my diet contains as wide a variety of foods as I can manage of lots of different colours. I also avoid wheat, but that’s more because I don’t like the sluggishness that I get afterwards than for any other reason. I also buy organic whenever I can – particularly dairy and eggs.
There is so much information about diet it seems like a minefield out there.
In the end you eat what makes you feel good – for life, not just for the moment when it is in your mouth!
Jamie S. says
I think this all is individual and the worst thing you can do is wasting your time arguing on the Internet. Well, I’m not a vegetarian, I simply love to eat steaks but I respect everyone’s personal choice. Moreover, what can you do with vegetarians? Making them eat meat? Come on! I guess they know what they’re doing. Some statistics even show that they live longer. So why should they change what they do? Because of some article published on the Internet?
Christopher says
More scientific studies reveal that vegetarian diets aren’t as healthy as many followers think:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3917888/
AzaK says
Looking at the study there is, right from the beginning, two immediate questions raised in my mind. The first is sample size. The “vegetarians” were only 2.2% of the whole group. Secondly and maybe more importantly, they have lumped all “vegetarians” into the same group regardless of whether they were vegan, lacto-ovo vegetarians and/or pescitarians. That could have a massive impact on the results as the three diets are quite different.
When looking at the healthcare section of the study, they claim that “Our multivariate analysis regarding health care has shown a significant main effect for dietary habits (p = .000) and confirmed that, overall, subjects with a lower animal fat intake demonstrate worse health care practices.”
“Vegetarians and subjects eating a carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables consult doctors more often than those eating a carnivorous diet less rich in meat (p = .003)”
“carnivorous diet rich in fruits and vegetables” – What is that? Paleo? What meat? Red meat? Chicken? Fish? Elephants?
As for limitations (As all studies are prone to have):
“Potential limitations of our results are due to the fact that the survey was based on cross-sectional data. Therefore, no statements can be made whether the poorer health in vegetarians in our study is caused by their dietary habit or if they consume this form of diet due to their poorer health status. We cannot state whether a causal relationship exists, but describe ascertained associations”
“Further limitations include the measurement of dietary habits as a self-reported variable and the fact that subjects were asked how they would describe their eating behavior, without giving them a clear definition of the various dietary habit groups”
The conclusion can be read incorrectly if one is not careful:
“Our study has shown that Austrian adults who consume a vegetarian diet are less healthy”
That does not say say a “vegetarian” diet will make you less healthy, it says they found (And that’s debatable IMO) that those on a vegetarian diet seemed less healthy. They are not the same thing. I’ll repeat “We cannot state whether a causal relationship exists, but describe ascertained associations””
I think this study offers little value to be honest other than a jumping off point for more thorough research.
Josie Stockdill says
Oh god this is depressing! Have you read the China Study? Watch forks over knives that has got some good stuff on health – or read world peace diet? I have been Vegan for some time and last time I went to the doctor I didn’t tell him – got my blood and organ checkup and he said that it was perfect and asked what I was doing.
When I said I was vegan he freaked out without considering that a healthy person was sitting in front of him telling him it works out fine. So my overweight red faced doctor told me to be “very careful long term” and sent me on my way shaking his head. Look up Mimi Kirk or Jim Morris if you want to see the effects of this diet over 50+ years?
There are so many ways to make it work and if a vegan has eaten chips and bread and becomes iron or b12 deficient you blame the vegan diet? What about thinking about this the other way around? What about considering the world we would be in if nothing was killed for food? Once again – read world peace diet. Its a positive and awesome way to live.
Kim S. says
LOL @ China Study and Forks Over Knives! Read the comments and you’ll see multiple references to the debunking of the China Study (flawed science). And why on earth would I take the advice of the biased veg*ns that produced Forks Over Knives? If you’re going to comment on Chris Kresser’s site, you have to do better than China Study and FOK.
drew.. says
.. and you just proved yourself a mainstream puppet. Who do you think is *paying* for the various rebuts of these excellent works?
Foster any behaviours you want to condone your complicit acceptance of abhorrent cruelty to animals in the name of the status quo, while vegans the world over prove how healthy our lifestyle is.
Jim says
Didn’t read all the comments but you forgot to mention K2 as it is only found in animal fat.
Monica says
The study in your 15th reference DOES conclude that high intake of fruit by vegetarians lowers their rates of cardiovascular disease!
Steve Bergman says
If you look at the full text of that study, there are all sorts of interesting, and damning, tidbits about vegetarian diets. Like the 64% increase in mortality in women with breast cancer. Not too surprising, since feeding cancer with carbohydrates is the *worst* thing you can do. (As Steve Jobs discovered.) In fact, vegetarianism *increased* mortality among women with breast cancer *more* than smoking increased mortality in all cancers.
Judy says
Ridiculous. Jobs didn’t discover any such thing. His cancer was growing long before he changed his diet. Where he went wrong was in not agreeing to conventional treatment. Not consuming animal products if anything probably bought him some time.
Steve Bergman says
One thing that gets lost in all the talk about the RDA’s and “essential nutrients” are the conditionally essential. And most importantly, all those hundreds to thousands of as yet unresearched, or even unnamed or unisolated, which exist in both animal and plant foods, that a vegetarian or vegan can’t know they need to supplement for best health. And couldn’t supplement even if they knew, since the supplements don’t exist yet.
The only sane way to eat for health is to eat omnivorously and to maintain a high level of variety.
Karin says
Dietary intake and nutritional status of young vegans and omnivores in Sweden.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12081822
“Vegans had higher intakes of vegetables, legumes, and dietary supplements and lower intakes of cake and cookies and candy and chocolate than did omnivores. Vegans had dietary intakes lower than the average requirements of riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin D, calcium, and selenium. Intakes of calcium and selenium remained low even with the inclusion of dietary supplements.”
Please note that vegans ate LESS junk food than the controls, consumed MORE veggies, legumes and supplements than the controls, and STILL managed to be low in essential nutrients.
This next article is a story of vegan children who experienced growth/developmental issues despite taking dietary supplements. (I suspect a carotene to Vitamin A conversion issue was also at play, but that wasn’t noted in the article).
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/healthy-living/how-our-vegan-diet-made-us-ill-848322.html
This article is by a vegan turned omnivore for the health of her family:
http://kristensraw.com/blog/2013/03/17/my-vegan-diet-caused-health-problems-would-primal-paleo-or-real-food-be-better
Finally, we have a fascinating article by a vegan woman who has chosen to incorporate animal products into her daughter’s diet. It reveals DEEP pathological behavior in the raw vegan community. This is a profound and ongoing problem. I don’t happen to agree with all of her conclusions, but I’m very appreciative of her effort to publicize these issues, some of which I have personal experience with:
“Then I had to question the sanity of those who dismissed the experience of others. The blatant lies and cover-ups are likely due to the left brain being too dominant in these people. While I feel physically sick that this still happens, I refuse to judge or condemn them. They need love, just like the rest of us. They need to be made to feel safe and secure so they can be truthful and get the help they need for their children without risk of attack.”
http://www.shazzie.com/life/articles/raw_vegan_children.shtml
kitsy says
Thanks for posting the links, Karin. I plan to check them all. 🙂
Karin says
It’s my pleasure, Kitsy! Thanks for the feedback.
I liked that link that you posted, too. 🙂
Cat says
Legumes and grains can be really bad for some of us….Been there, done that.
Karin says
Here We Go Again: Vegetarian Diets and Mental Health
http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2014/02/here-we-go-again-vegetarian-diets-and.html#comment-form
Cedar Cat says
We certainly don’t need to eat meat as much as most of us do. Once a week is plenty. With respect to dairy, stick with organic and if you can find it, raw milk. Especially organic butter, which is concentrated. Eat your vegetables well-cooked to unlock the nourishment behind the strong cell wall. (Freezing and drying and fermenting works, too). Unfermented soy products are very hard on the body, disrupting hormone and endocrine systems.
And let’s not forget that whenever we eat, we give death to something. Let us honor the plants and the animals who so willingly sacrifice themselves so that we might live. We are all food for something.
drew says
i almost suspect this is a troll post. I don’t think one could pack more misinformation into two short paragraphs if one tried. Every single bit of information here is so status-quo rah-rah that it is almost emblematic of all that we work so hard to awaken people to. And to top it off to compare the suffering of animals to that of plants, who apparently go “willingly” to their deaths. How UTTERLY sad to post such a thing.
Kitsy says
From yesterday’s NYTimes:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/study-questions-fat-and-heart-disease-link/
Suzie says
Dr David Katz Director, Yale Prevention Research Center: http://huff.to/1qX5ZTQ
Suzie says
yikes: http://bit.ly/1jxyIJv
Simon says
If you want a good answer to the faulty claims in this article, please read :
http://www.theveganrd.com/2014/03/dont-think-twice-about-going-vegan.html
Julia Guest says
I’ve been vegetarian all my life, 48. I am extremely healthy, cycle everywhere, swim, dance for hours every week.
In the last few years I had to take a serious look at my diet to deal with arthritis that has developed in my foot (hereditary)
I found that ensure it is much more alkaline, less grain and acidic veg, high intake of raw greens has changed it from not being able to put my shoes on to.. to being able to dance barefoot, pain free. In the process of doing this I found the key supplements that help are cold pressed Hemp Oil, which is high in Long strand Omega oils.. much better than fish. B12 is a bacteria that is easily available when foraging berries.. blackberries and raw seaweed. Most meat is now irradiated and wrapped in plastic, so the bacteria that makes it has been killed off. The critical issue we face is that poor farming methods have reduced the vitamin and mineral content in food. So it is important to source organic, sustainably grown food, where the soil has been fed and cared for. There is so much information out there on how to eat well.. especially from the raw food nutritionists like David Wolfe.
The key in working out what diet suits you, is to pay attention to the affect your food has on you.. if you eat well, you will feel well.
Elle says
I was vegan for 16 years, developed serious estrogen related illness because of soy phytoestrogenic compounds, felt like crap for most of it…
moving to paleo due to carbohydrate related problems with vegetarian diet (GERD, LPR)…
funny that now I am a meat eater! hahaha!
For those of you swooning over forks over knives read this pretty brainy dissection of the research:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/
Prezz says
I converted from being carnivorous to vegan 5 years ago. People have said it was extreme and that I would not succeed. It was a great struggle but I was determined to lead a healthy lifestyle and hoped that through it I may be able to get rid of skin rashes I get every now and then, poor sleep, constipation and feelings of depression. I think as my body started to get rid of toxins built up over the years, I felt some sort of withdrawal symptoms which vanished as my body slowly accepted my new diet regime. One day I went to my doctor for my annual pap smear and we chatted about my vegan diet. She was very concerned about my health and told me that it would do enormous long term harm to my health. She suggested that I do a complete test to check that everything was alright. Everything was tested in my system, every nook and cranny and nothing was left to chance. When I came back a week later to get the results, she couldn’t believe everything was healthy except for a very tiny bit of deficiency in Vitamin D which she said could be improved with adequate exposure to sunlight. I couldn’t be happier. The skin rash that would plague me had not returned, I sleep better, the constipation had vanished and my bowel movement has become regular and I feel much better. And that’s thanks to my new vegan diet., Well, I still drink wine – red wine – in moderation and I have included regular exercise in my regime. A vegan diet will work wonders if you know how to mix and match plant-based foods, nuts, legumes etc so that they complement each other. I also believe in God and the diet He had prescribed for optimal health.
bahona says
The author missed the most important nutrient that vegans and vegetarians need to be concerned with: Magnesium!
morilinde says
Actually, that is completely incorrect. The best sources of magnesium in the world come from plants. As a matter of fact, animal products don’t even appear in the top 10 list of best sources for magnesium. Leafy greens and nuts/seeds are the best. Here is a great site that explains how magnesium is used in the body, how it interacts with other vitamins and minerals, and a pretty comprehensive list of whole foods that contain it. I recommend exploring the site for info on other vitamins and minerals as well. I should note that the site is not for vegetarians or vegans (though they can certainly learn a lot from it); it includes data on animal products as well, so you know it is unbiased.
Here is the magnesium page: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?pfriendly=1&tname=nutrient&dbid=75
Here is the page for all other essential nutrients:
http://www.whfoods.com/nutrientstoc.php
Louisa Dawes says
I do agree with a lot of statements regarding the vegetarian diet. Unfortunately my being a vegetarian is not something that’s chosen. I cannot stand meat, seafood or fish apart from the odd fish finger! I’ve tried so many times to eat it but it literally makes me gag. I can’t stand the thought of eating something that was running around. If I chew anything and find a jibbly bit or a bone I could actually go into a swoon!
I’ve often thought of getting hypnotised lol, however all joking aside I have a 6 year old and I hate the thought of passing these habits onto him. Currently he’ll eat any fruit or vegetables, and most meats and fish. I hope it stays that way.
Of course when it comes to myself I’m not sure what to do, I know by the way I feel in myself I’m not eating healthily but I don’t know where to start.
My NHS doctor has sent me to a dietician only to be told I should eat low fat high carb diet which makes me gain wait at the pace of an intergalactic invasion. When oh when is the NHS going to drop this low fat crud…..?
I just started an online course for diet and nutrition, hopefully it may shed some light on how to proceed!
Alicia says
Funny how people who don’t like fruit and veggies don’t argue that that means their bodies don’t need them. And people they say it to either say A) force yourself to eat it anyway or B) you just haven’t found a good way to cook them yet.
And yet “I don’t enjoy meat/fish/eggs/dairy” is somehow considered adequate argument that one is a different species than the rest of us and their bodies are telling them they will do best as vegans.
I was vegetarian for 15 years (probably gave me the CFS I’m still getting out from under). When I started eating meat again I thought it was disgusting, but my body liked it so much I persevered, and have now found plenty of recipes that I find quite yummy.
Not that you will (since the theme here is ‘only speak for yourself, don’t tell others they will have their experience’). But my mom doesn’t like vegetables and can’t be bothered to prepare them in a way she’ll like, and she plows through a little bowl of kale every night, like taking medicine. Find something you can almost gag down and do it.
Suzie says
I would like to circle back to this site and Paleo as I am not sold on it. I don’t understand how any of the Paleo diets are truly Paleo because even Chris’s recipes/foods where not found in the Paleolithic era and this is the premise, so it seems to me to be a “fad” diet. I even saw that Cordain endorses Paleo Diet bars http://thepaleodiet.com/foods/. I am certainly not living a Paleo woman lifestyle and don’t want too!
charles grashow says
@Suzie
Agree totally
Exactly how are these “paleo”? Cordain is a whore like most in the community are. Pushing products, supplements, etc.
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Erica says
Phil Nichols, that is an impressive list of the major thinkers of the past centuries. People who are able to see the big picture. Beyond splitting hairs over micronutrients you have to ask why people react wth such rage to people who do not feel animals are here for the primary purpose of serving man’s desires, because react with rage is what they do. I think some people are able to see animals as sentient and others either aren’t or simply haven’t turned their thoughts to it, which would be fine but the rage is strange. Awaiting the no doubt follow-up enraged comments and attacks…..
Phil Nicols says
lol Erica
there’s another saying.. something to the effect, “no amount of evidence will convince someone of something they are not willing to accept”
ya, Im not getting dragged into this. I will give Karin her link since she asked but Im outta here.
http://vegan.wikia.com/wiki/Famous_Vegans_and_Vegetarians
FrankG says
Good grief.. here Erica back with her reading comprehension problem.. her blinkers that only allow her to see what she wants to see and disregard the rest! LOL indeed Phil.
As for “famous vegetarians”…
I’ve seen it stated (on vegetarian sites incidentally) that Albert Einstein was likely only a vegetarian (not a vegan) for the last year of his life. So what?
Listing these famous people as if that adds any weight to your argument, is about as meaningful and convincing to me as the questions around Hitler’s religious beliefs. Was he Catholic or Atheist? So what?!?
It’s great that you have made your own lifestyle choices… please respect others to do the same for their own reasons.
My reasons..? try reading some of my other comments; instead of persisting with the myth (like Erica) that all “meat-eaters” are self-centered, egoists, hung-up on micro-nutrients… blah blah blah blah blah…
Karin says
Darwin wasn’t a vegetarian.
Lincoln wasn’t a vegetarian.
Gandhi thought that prescriptive vegans were fraudsters and enemies of India:
In the end he had to acknowledge the necessity for animal food. In 1946 he declared: “The crores of India today get neither milk nor ghee nor butter, nor even buttermilk. No wonder that mortality figures are on the increase and there is a lack of energy in the people. It would appear as if man is really unable to sustain life without either meat or milk and milk products. Anyone who deceives people in this regard or countenances the fraud is an enemy of India.”
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet3.html#0
I don’t have time to fact-check them all. The list itself is based on nonsense and wishful thinking……..oh that’s right……..
FrankG says
“based on … wishful thinking”
Sure it’s a nice idea to think that you can live without taking life… especially if you use anthropomorphic ideas to decide on what actually counts as “alive” but it is a mistaken and misleading view of life.
I don’t find it hypocritical of me to say I respect life, while I share it with other lifeforms on this planet.
Perhaps Erica has her fingers in her ears and refuses to hear the rational, and reasonable discussion going on here (see Karin’s excellent earlier comment) — it really must be so much easier to dismiss all “meat-eaters” as thoughtless barbarians (although I’m still not clear where Erica stands, as she denies being a veg*n herself)… maybe this is why she is unable to respond in a reasoned way… too much self-loathing?
Dorothy Montgomery says
Karin
actually, I do have a garden and although we are not solely 100% self sufficient, it does help out with the grocery bills.
my whole family are vegans for over 20 years. It takes more than 25 times as much land and crops, not to mention water and energy to raise animals of which only a small percentage makes it back to the tables of humans.
so if you are interested in saving plants, land, water and energy, you are best to stop eating meat because thats at least 25 times worst.
Karin says
Dorothy,
I asked for a list of foods that you are eating this winter, because I think it would enlighten you just how many more animals might be killed in the process of raising the crops and getting you that food than living like the Amish farmer that I referenced in my prior post. He doesn’t grow crops to feed to his steers. His steers eat the grass.
Also, you may not know it, but animal-based inputs are used in growing almost all of that organic food. Usually CAFOs. I would love to learn of your plan for the world (or even the continental U.S.) that can feed all people using all-veganic, non-industrialized agriculture. If you can do that, I’m in.
Provided that you also include a plan for all of the people who do not thrive on plant-only diets. 🙂
Karin says
Sorry! Here is the linking to that meat-eating vegan. 🙂
Dorothy Montgomery says
so this is the best we can do as a civilized society after all these years? We can send men to the moon, we have new ways of agriculture… but we must follow the way of a tribe? I don’t think this is the way for all. Not too many people living in todays so called advanced society would take on this position. This is justification for eating animals because some indigenous tribe does so? The Ancient Mayans used to toss their first born to the volcano Gods to assure a good coming year… maybe we should do this too, after all, it would help keep the population down 🙂
Karin says
Hi Dorothy,
I’m going to take a wild guess that you don’t grow all of your own food. Or that you didn’t really didn’t read my prior post, as it pertains to industrialized agriculture.
Care to share all the foods that you’ve been eating this winter? Maybe we could evaluate the impact in a way that you’ve never even considered.
FrankG says
Did you watch the clip Dorothy? You never know… might find it enlightening.. especially the last minute or so.
Karin says
Hi Suzie,
Thanks for your question! I am responding at the bottom of the thread because the sub-thread was so narrow that it had become unreadable.
“Open Mind” stated:
“If someone wanted to do something – like not eat animals or drink their secretions that you would respect their position – that at least this person is doing something.”
I deeply respect and identify with the INTENTION to avoid harming animals (both human and non-human). It is a subject that I think about every day of my life. But I reject the position that prescriptive and/or dogmatic veganism is creating a gentler and more sustainable world “on the ground.” If you want a gentler world, my position is that rigid adherence to universal veganism moves us in precisely the wrong direction.
To evaluate whether or not a person is in fact doing “less harm” to animals by choosing a given vegan product over an animal product, it’s important to consider where one lives (i.e., are you in Alaska or San Diego?), the time of year, how the plant foods were grown, harvested, processed and packaged, how the different crops were protected from wild animals, how the animals were caught or raised, how the different products were transported, total pollution costs, etc.
I don’t know if you’ve reviewed all of the posts on this thread, but I’ve studied crop and soil science, and I think it’s important to consider more than the overt violence of the slaughterhouse when thinking about the tremendous amount of violence that is INHERENT in attempting to feed 7 billion people. Agriculture, especially large-scale agriculture, is innately violent. In order to feed one species to the exclusion of others, you must uproot homes, displace, poison, trap, starve etc. etc. etc. It is brutal. You must declare that this parcel that was once home to many, is now the property of the few. It is now yours, and yours alone, because you are at the top of the food chain. Someone tried to compare animal agriculture to human slavery….well, if it is, then what the heck is “plant-based” agriculture? The fact is that we are human animals and we are competing with others for scarce resources. There is absolutely no peaceful way to do that. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/mice-the-biggest-losers-w-vegetarianism/4660498
Allow me to elaborate:
I live in upstate New York.
Let’s say that my Amish friend slaughters his (grass-fed) steer. If he gets 500lbs of meat from that steer, and eats a 1/4 lb of meat every night for dinner, the meat would last him 2000 days. So he is effectively eating/killing less than one cow every 5 years.
Let’s say that, out of compassion for animals, I choose a “Vegan-approved” option like legumes and grains for dinner every night over the course of the same 5+ years.
S.L. Davis from the Department of Animal Sciences at Oregon State University, writes:
“One Oregon farmer told me that half of the cottontail rabbits went into his combine when he cut a wheat field, that virtually all of the small mammals, ground birds, and reptiles were killed when he harvested his crops. Because most of these animals have been seen as expendable, or not seen at all, few scientific studies have been done measuring agriculture’s effects on their populations.” In a study that has been done to examine the effect of harvesting grain crops, Tew and Macdonald (1993) reported that mouse population density dropped from 25/ha preharvest to less than 5/ha postharvest. This decrease was attributed to both migration out of the field and to mortality. They estimated the mortality rate to be 52%. In another study Nass et al. (1971) reported that the mortality rate of Polynesian rats was 77% during the harvest of sugar cane in Hawaii. These are the estimated mortality rates for only a single species, and for only a single operation (i.e. harvesting). Therefore, an estimate somewhere between 52 and 77% (say 60%) for animals of all kinds killed during the production year would be reasonable. Using the population density shown in Tew and Macdonald’s (1993) paper (25/ha) times a 60% mortality rate of 15 animals/ha each year.
Note that these figures just refer to the harvesting of the plants. We aren’t even discussing the effects of processing, long-distance transport, fossil fuel use, etc. Remember that the farmer killed a steer every 5+ years. I would respectfully ask any vegan to estimate the total number of animals that are maimed, displaced, turned into roadkill, starved, or otherwise harmed in the planting, harvesting, packaging, and transport over hundreds of miles of 5+ years worth of grain and legumes?
So, getting back to Open Mind’s question about whether or not eating plant-only is “doing something”: Obviously it’s doing “something”, but in my opinion, sometimes MUCH more harm than good.
Regarding use of the word “vegan”:
Before writing this, I googled the phrase “am I still vegan if I eat….”
Over 200,000,000 hits came up. That suggests to me that too many people may have priorities which are counter to the goals of sustainability and compassion. Why would one care if others consider it “vegan” to do something? Shouldn’t the individual instead be considering whether it causes less suffering than the alternative? Vegans have traditionally avoided honey because it “exploits the bees,” which, in my mind, suggests that these folks either have no idea of what’s involved in producing most “vegan approved” crops, or that they do know, but in their effort to maintain their membership in the “club”, they fail to be mindful that their choice may not actually reduce suffering.
Does it make any sense, for example, to purchase a container of brown rice syrup over local honey if one wishes to reduce animal suffering? Similarly, why would one prefer to purchase tofu over oysters, if impact on the welfare of animals and environment are the main consideration? A variety of animals, including mammals, are killed and maimed in the production of the so-called “vegan” options, and I think the evidence suggests that far more suffering is involved, as well.
Even if we were to accept the (dubious) premise that eating plants always causes less suffering than eating animal products, I would argue that a meat eater who chooses not to bring children into the world, purchase a car, or travel to far-away countries for pleasure is causing far less harm than the “plant-only” eater who brings children into the world, drives a car, and takes vegan cruises http://www.atasteofhealth.org/events/rates.htm.
We routinely hear people describe themselves as a “vegan who eats honey”. Would a meat eater such as my Amish farmer, whose entire life, I submit, does FAR less harm to animal life than a typical “plant-only” eater, rightly be called a “vegan who eats meat”? The most magnificent meat-eating-vegan I’ve ever seen: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=attenborough%20hunter&sm=3
Many self-proclaimed “vegans” scoff at the idea of not purchasing certain things that might contain animal parts, like computers, TV’s, cars, etc. I find that to be a preposterously self-serving and cowardly position. Most of the world doesn’t have these things. My Amish friend doesn’t have these things. Authentically vegan intentional communities exist to avoid such things. So when some people claim that they are making such a sacrifice for the animals, I have to wonder what alternative reality they are living in. It seems that the sacrifice begins and ends with the replacement of ice cream with “Coconut Dream”. Are we to take this seriously? Why would we use a single word to describe someone, if the word itself doesn’t even consistently MEAN anything at all?
Open Mind provided that story about the starfish.
I also like that story.
But here’s my little spin on it:
It’s the story of a mildly self-righteous, ecologically unaware girl who thinks that as long as she doesn’t actually eat animal parts she’s doing right by the animal world and the world as a whole. She has never grown her own food, and only has the vaguest ideas about how it all gets to her, and doesn’t even realize that the byproducts of animal agriculture are an essential part of the production of most of the “vegan” food that she buys.
One day she hears about the plight of the starfish, so she decides to book a flight to east Asia so that she can personally assist in saving them….
When she gets there, she realizes that the starfish are being washed ashore by cargo ships that are loading up with an array of food items. They are to be transported on a several-thousand mile journey to quell the ever-increasing appetites of unconscious consumers in New York, many of whom are “vegans” just like her. And then she suddenly realizes that the airplane that carried her and her fellow “eco-tourists” on their way to rescue those starfish probably killed a bunch of birds on the way.
I used to be that girl. It may seem like I’m mocking her, but I’m really not. Except to the extent that she was ignorant enough to think that she was more “compassionate” or “empathetic” than the farmer who stays home and lives off the land with the help of his animals, selling nourishing food at farmer’s markets and purchasing essentials from his neighbors.
What I want to see is a return to a more traditional, yet progressive world. One where people eat moderately and with respect for their bodies and their farmers. One where diets aren’t based on importing $20 a day worth of fruit into New England in the middle of winter from thousands of miles away. One where people sustain themselves through the winter predominantly with the foods of winter, which, in many regions, are animal foods. I believe that this way of life is still the norm in places like France, for example, where people consume significantly more milk, 4 times the butter, 60% more cheese, much more organ meat, etc, and yet manage to live much longer than us!
In my opinion, if we want to build a better world for all animals, both human and non-human, we would consider a range of actions and/or abstentions like the ones below. I see these and similar actions as far more life-affirming than universal veganism.
1. Adopt children, rather than procreate.
2. Don’t consume more than you need: Don’t buy more than one home (and make it a modest one); avoid travelling to faraway places for pleasure; don’t use food as entertainment; avoid purchasing products of big industry; avoid buying stuff wrapped in plastic; be mindful of the hidden impact of every act.
3. When you do consume, consume locally. Basing your diet on foods that are coming from Thailand and Africa and New Zealand and Chile when you live in Montana is not helpful to animals in any way! Animals are maimed and die every time your cargo ship/airplane moves through their habitat!
4. Don’t waste.
5. Share: i.e., Help others eat well. If we share resources/cash nobody has to buy horrible, inhumane food.
6. Create an intentional community. Try to grow food veganically and see just what’s entailed into producing food for humans. In fact, I might be open to letting someone on this thread use my 12 acres of land to show us all just how easy it is to sustain him/herself in upstate New York throughout the year without the use of animals. Maybe we could make it a reality show. 🙂
To be honest with you, this is a tough post to write. I don’t know quite how to express how uncomfortable I am with the idea of killing animals. This is not the world that I would design. However, I tend to believe in a form of reincarnation, and if I were to come back as some random animal to this world, I honestly would prefer that it be a world where humans live simpler lives and are more reliant on themselves and their surrounding communities for their food, rather than one run by vegans who kill through an over-reliance on massive industry and big agriculture and gigantic multi-national corporations……even if most of the people in this vegan-dystopia see animals like me as warm and fuzzy and think that they’re doing me such a huge favor.
I relate to this quote by Michael Pollan:
“The fact that you cannot come out of hunting feeling unambiguously good about it is perhaps what should commend the practice to us. You certainly don’t come out of it eager to protest your innocence. If I’ve learned anything about hunting and eating meat, it’s that it’s even messier than the moralist thinks. Having killed a pig and looked at myself in that picture and now looking forward (if that’s the word) to eating that pig, I have to say there is a part of me that envies the moral clarity of the vegetarian, the blamelessness of the tofu eater. Yet part of me pities him too. Dreams of innocence are just that; they usually depend on a denial of reality that can be its own form of hubris. Ortega suggests that there is an immorality in failing to look clearly at reality, or in believing the force of human will can somehow overcome it.”
FrankG says
So say we all! Nicely put Karin
Suzie says
Wow – Thank you Karin for explaining your experience and your perspective at length: “used to be that girl” – you are still that girl but continue to learn and shape your purpose in the world. However, your experience does inform your strong opinions as you seemingly fight hard against “vegans” – how could it not. Maybe using what you have learned and your energy – your schooling will propel you to become a leader in sustaining this world. I can’t see the solution so try my best.
Karin says
Thank you so much, Susie. Your gracious response means more to me than you will ever know.
AmyR says
Thanks for writing this Karin, it has helped me see more clearly.
Karin says
Thanks for your kind words, AmyR! 🙂
David says
Well said Karin because a lot of vegans get on their “high horses” when they talk with me (I am a meat eater). They think there is no blood on their hands. I have made similar arguments to them about the loss of animal life in the harvesting process. Perhaps collateral damage doesn’t count?
Phil Nicols says
.. the article talks about “deficiencies” … like no meat eater ever had a deficiency? My father was eating meat regularly. at 80 he developed an iron deficiency.
Doctors advised him of diet and even subscribed an iron supplement that he used to take. He died at 82 from a heart condition.
Some meat eaters live longer, some live shorter, some vegans live longer, some shorter. There are many vegans over 100 and meat eaters as well.
Some people grow to over 6ft tall, some never reach 6ft. this is DNA.
There are fat meat eaters, skinny meat eaters, healthy one and sick ones – same as vegetarians and vegans.
If “health” was not even part of this equation, then it comes down to right from wrong, cruel from not cruel and what is best for the environment.
I hear lots of meat eaters justifying the cruelty with simple statements like, “well, man has to eat”.
but we know now that man does not have to eat animals. The thought of “harvesting animals” is right out there when you think about it.
Most wouldn’t “round up” all the neighbourhood cats and dogs and cook them all for the “tribe” to eat now would they? yet SOME DO!
So what makes cows and pigs and chickens different?
People say its not cruel… would YOU trade places with an animal harvested as “food”? For those that think its not cruel, have you ever seen an animal slaughtered in front of you? (I have) .. Have you ever visited the local slaughter house? Have you ever even watched the animals being herded off the trucks and onto the “kill floor”? Would you take your kids to the slaughterhouse for day trip?
Why not? if its so “normal” and ok? and the way of life? and the way its been for millions of years?
I see lots of kids gardening with their folks in the summer but never any class trips to the slaughterhouse.
as far as ecology, it takes far more energy and land and crops and water to get a small percentage of meat. This energy, land, crops and water could be used to feed the ever growing population of people not animals raised to be harvested.
just a thought.
Karin says
Hi Drew,
You seem extremely confident in declaring the plant-only diet as universally ideal for human health. I struggle to see how you have come to this conclusion, in light of the massive amount of evidence that I have seen to the contrary.
I noticed that you recommend that people eat “vegan, varied and complete, with whole foods, as raw as possible” for optimal health. I think that the preponderance of the evidence suggests that *many* adults with a high metabolic rate and few food sensitivities can indeed thrive on such a whole foods plant-only diet, because if you have a high enough caloric intake, it doesn’t matter much if the foods consumed are nutritionally dense or optimally bio-available.
But would you really give the same recommendations to everyone? For example, to people with a wide range of food sensitivities; to people with thyroid issues; to people who have difficulty synthesizing cholesterol; to people with epilepsy and/or mood disorders; to people who have difficulty converting beta-carotene to Vitamin A and similar polymorphisms; and to all children?
Speaking of children, this is a sample meal plan provided by the Physician’s Committee for Responsible Medicine for children ages 1-4:
Breakfast: Oatmeal with applesauce, calcium–fortified orange juice
Lunch: Hummus on crackers, banana, soymilk, carrot sticks
Dinner: Corn, mashed sweet potatoes, steamed kale, soymilk
Snacks: Peaches, Cheerios, soymilk
Please note the use of fortified Soymilk, Cheerios, and Orange Juice in lieu of whole foods. To me, this looks like a nutrient-sparse diet that requires the addition of synthetically-fortified processed foods of questionable quality to meet even minimal nutritional requirements for some nutrients, such as protein, zinc, iron, etc. while remaining deficient in other nutrients. Does this look like an optimal diet for 1-4 year old children to you? How, if at all, might you modify it?
Would you be willing to share what your personal diet/caloric intake would look like in a typical week and in what region of the country you reside? Also, if you take any supplements? I think it might be instructive. Thanks in advance for considering this request!
Also, you may be aware that people who try veganism tend to be more educated and health-conscious than the average person…..Does it seem reasonable to conclude that the tremendous number of people who do not thrive on plant-only diets were just too ignorant to realize that they should be eating a variety of complete whole foods? What about people like Dr. Chris Masterjohn, Robb Wolf, Melissa McKewen, Denise Minger….do they just strike you as a bunch of dummies who ate Boca Burgers all day long and forgot about their veggies?
Finally, evidence does suggest that vegan children on average suffer more from various sub-clinical deficiencies, even when compared to their counterparts, who tend to eat massive amounts of processed and nutritionally-empty food. I would be curious to know your interpretation of this as well. Thanks!
drew says
Hi Karin, when time permits, I will address your thoughtful note properly. But in a nutshell, yes, i am very confident my thoughts are generally applicable. We all like to think we are unique, but the reality is we are so very alike via our dna, that we have universal truths.
Health is but a snapshot of our biosystem at any given time. Every single cell is replaced within a period of time, and is replaced via the nutrients you absorb. Each cell contains the blueprints for what *it* requires and it does not forget.
Just like we should not judge a person for their past but for their present, we should also bathe our cells in the nutrients it needs for harmonious existence. As well, if you don’t allow your gut bacteria to form properly, you will never ever be healthy. Our bodies are remarkable machines, and each health issue is a story, one driven deeper to manifest in a new way if you simply drive it away with most modern meds. cheers..
Phil Nicols says
I’d also like to add that DNA makes a huge difference in performance. I will never be an olympic athlete or the strongest man on earth but Im 6.3, 200lbs and in pretty fair shape I would say. What makes me 6.3 and the meat eater standing in line next to me, 5ft10 and 150L? What makes the basket ball player over 7ft?
Eating meat doesn’t make you strong, no more than taking steroids is going to make you the next Mr Olympia… (nothing wrong with that). Im just saying. People seem to be brainwashed that if they eat meat, workout, and stick their ass with drugs, they will become Mr Olympia.
I recall watching the movie “Pumping Iron” with Arnold, Lou and all the top bodybuilders back then… its a sad story really. There was one guy in that circuit that did “all the right things” ate meat 5 times a day, omelettes with 25 eggs, pumped his body with steroids (all about him him him) – NEVER won a contest.
What do you do with all those hours, all that hard work at THAT level of competition if you don’t win?
I mean, its nice to feel good about yourself with big muscles I guess (me me me) if thats what makes you happy but this guy was on a world level of competition and never won. If it was me, I would be devastated.
Sorry guys but lets face the facts, not everyone will be the top bodybuilder, or fastest runner etc. REGARDLESS of how much meat you eat, how much drugs you take, how many countless hours you spend in the gym. DNA has 90% to do with this.
Veganism is not a “diet” its a lifestyle. One that takes the focus off of me me me all the time.
When I started on my journey, I did so basically on a challenge. I thought, “I can do that” (go without meat for 30 days) piece of cake.
In those 30 days, I changed. I started to really pay attention to whats going on in the world, the animals that are being “bred for food”…
have you seen Tom Cruises War of the Worlds? this movie looks at what it would be like if the tables were turned on humans and some alien race with far superior intelligence, harvested us for “food”.
then I starred to see the impact on the environment, and on our personal health.
I’ve never looked back. Its not like we are giving something up, we are gaining sooo much more.
I thank God, or the “higher Power whatever it may be that I was able to buck the trend for that initial 30 days.
I went against family and friends and all my gym buddies back then who were all about “protein” which they assumed only came from animals.
its so liberating to be able to see things from “this side” I pray that I can inspire even one to look at the benefits.
I wish someone told me many years before.,, but then I was not ready for it back then. When I was young you couldn’t tell me anything lol.
Phil Nicols says
I’m 48 years old. I’ve been off meat for over a decade.. off all animal products for last two years as well. Ive never been lethargic, havent been sick in years, don’t work out very often but I can still push 4 plates (225l). Never been on steroids… haven’t even used protein powder in about 5 years, something I used to do regularly.
Yes humans can likely eat anything. There are people in Guinness book of records that ate nails and glass.
Yes, probably some cavemen watched a carnivore eating another animal.. All they knew back then was monkey see monkey do, so they probably tried the same.
It was likely hard for them to catch an animal and kill it with spears, so they likey picked at carcases left over from the carnivors.
I know if i was a caveman, I would be more inclined to eat things that grew, fruits, berries, root vegetables etc. They say all mankind emanated from Africa, which is a land rich in these foods. those that migrated from there, likely took on the roles of animals that lived in the areas they migrated to.
Does it mean they were right? Of course not. The average life expectancy of early man was under 30 years.
So “can we get by” eating dogs and cats? of course we probably can. Is it ideal for us? Absolutely not.
Today, for the first time in the recorded history of man, we internet to share scientific information. The findings startle many people because its contrary to what most of us were brought up knowing.
Wasn’t that long ago that smoking was looked at as “cool” and it was advertised all over magazines and 50’s tv ads.. “Blow smoke in her face and she will love you forever”. Of course we know today that its bad for us yet people still do it in spite of the facts.
Today, the strongest man in the world is a vegan as well as gold medal olympic athletes, football players, basketball players, boxers… Herschel Walker is a vegan. He was 50 when he took up MMA (mixed martial arts) he runs 8 miles a day does 1000’s of pushups and sit-ups daily!
And millions of “regular folks” like myself, all fairing well without the misery, blood, death, cruelty, co-lateral damage to the planet.
So if we can “survive” on A OR B.. why would anyone knowingly choose the dark side?
I was a meat eater like millions of others and I quit “cold turkey” Im sure if I can do it, anyone can.
P/
FrankG says
So you — just like “the strongest man in the world” — did NOT build your current physique as a vegan…
AND your personal story does not detract from the precautionary tone of this blog post, which starts with the title “Why You Should Think Twice About Vegetarian and Vegan Diets” … with careful reading, you might just make out that is does not say “Why no-one should ever eat a vegan diet”
I am also doing far more than just “surviving” and I am also against disrespect for life.
Phil Nicols says
“did NOT build your current physique as a vegan…”
no this is true but many have been brought up without eating animals or animal products. To them there was no different and today they are alive and well.
There are many today on my facebook feed that were born vegans.
It is as odd to them to see others eating harvested animals as it is for most of us to see the Chinese eating cats and dogs.
I recall going to the wedding of my sister’s friend over 30 years ago. This couple (a drop dead gorgeous couple) already had a child and decided to get married. The baby was maybe 6-9 months old at the time. The couple were vegans before I even knew what the term meant. I was about 18 at the time and asked them, back in those days about deficiencies for the baby but the baby was quite healthy and normal and quiet not crying like many do.
They knew about all this way back then, before internet, before it was “socially acceptable”.
I wish someone would have coached me on it back then!!
But its not a “new thing” There were many before their time… Historic people like;
Plato
Socrates
Albert Einstein
Leo Tolstoy
David Thoreau Henry David Thoreau
Emerson
Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Pope
Sir Issac Newton
Pythagoras
Gandhi
Leonardo Da Vinci[14]
Voltaire
Milton
Charles Darwin
Schweitzer
Percy Byssche Shelly
Mary Shelly
George Bernard Shaw
Abraham Lincoln
Confusius
Nikola Tesla
Seneka
to name a few.
Bill Pearl won every major bodybuilding competition there was in the 60-70’s without meat..(he’s a vegetarian, still eats eggs) he did all this before internet. Today hes in his 80s and still trains daily and trains others in Venice CA.
The internet has brought this information worldwide. Do you think the television, which is supported by the restaurant chains and rich people are going to be promoting this? this is why the general public is only now seeing this information. It was just not possible to publically broadcast this even as little as 15 years ago.
Growing up I too used to make fun of vegans and vegetarians… “whats for dinner? grass again?” or “your supposed to smoke the grass not eat it” and the list went on.
Now I am one. Hows that for ironic?
Karin says
Phil,
I know I’m going to regret this……but what was your source for the list of these famous vegan/vegetarians? Facts are pretty important to me. Someone is pulling a fast one you, Phil.
Also, do you care to explain how you came to this fascinating conclusion that, since you can be healthy as a vegan, anyone can?
I know a mother whose daughter has sensitivities to a wide range of legumes and nuts. Care to offer a meal plan for this girl? Thanks, Phil!
Phil Nicols says
http://vegan.wikia.com/wiki/Famous_Vegans_and_Vegetarians
FrankG says
I’ve seen in stated (on vegetarian sites incidentally) that Albert Einstein was likely only a vegetarian (not a vegan) for the last year of his life. So what?
Listing these famous people as if that adds any weight to your argument, is about as meaningful and convincing to me as the questions around Hitler’s religious beliefs.
It’s great that you have made your own lifestyle choices… please respect others to do the same for their own reasons.
My reasons..? try reading some of my other comments.
drew says
How many differing ways can one say:
Vegetarianism Veganism
The two are NOT related in today’s definition. When the term was coined decades ago, it was effectively equivalent. Not today.
Eating vegetarian is not healthy. Period. Dairy and whatever else you decide is allowable is detrimental to your health. Period. It will acidify your body and casein will promote cancer without restraint.
Eating vegan, varied and complete, with whole foods, as raw as possible and your body will alkalize and your health will return provided you exercise moderately, sleep well, remove stress from your life and gets real sunshine.
The rest of the anger in this thread, and the desire to maintain cruelty to animals, is a model for how our society allows for the status quo to continue with lack of personal accountability and continuance of that which would hold no water without current context.
Colin says
You were doing good but you just had to ruin it with that final snobby, condescending paragraph. And vegans wonder why people have an unfavorable view of them……
drew says
My apologies if the raw truth of the matter is unsettling.
Colin says
Nice thought-terminating cliche. “I’m sorry the truth (my opinion) upsets you so much….” Gotta love that d-bag vegan snark.
Cat says
Exactly. This is what I cannot stand about the vegans I know as well. I don’t want anything to do with them after a while. I find it insulting to be called a bad person in any way, shape or form – if I eat an animal protein, even to the best of my ethical decision making process. I eat mostly vegetarian with some animal protien here and there, but veganism made me sick. It was not for me. I tried everything with it and I lost my energy over time. But I was treated like a sell-out or a bad person and that just made me mad. I can’t stand vegans now for this reason alone. They always get around to insinuating that the rest of us are barbarians. For what? being part of the food chain? I just also got tired of them going on and on about vegan canine diets as well….
Spencer says
I believe the most interesting thing about this article is when he mentions the genetic precursors for certain individuals to convert plant based vitamin sources more efficiently then others. This brings up an important point which isn’t mentioned here, what if there is no “better diet”, what if it just depends on each persons individual makeup? Some people tolerate being vegan/vegetarian while others don’t…what if we just left it up for the individual to decide? I know for myself that without ALOT of protein, I get depressed, lethargic and tired. I understand being vegetarian and vegan to try to positively impact the world, but my functioning was so decreased while I was vegetarian I couldn’t really be of any help or service to anyone…not even myself. Maybe I didn’t do it right, maybe I’ll try it again in the future, but for now for some reason I have an intuition that for my body, eating animals and animal products in a balanced way feels right (although I believe dairy products can cause inflammation for people with health problems). Instead of debating this with me, lets focus on what we know and have in common. Increasing vegetable intake is a complete no brainer for better health. Let’s spread the truth that processed foods, sugary foods, GMO’s, and pesticides are terrible for us and the environment. Let’s treat animals with respect and have them graze on open pasteur, eating their natural diet, free from slaughterhouses, confinement, antibiotics and hormones. We are being so unproductive by arguing!
Bruce Clifton says
Thanks for the well thought out article, Chris. There is an interesting response to it at http://www.theveganrd.com. I think it would be wonderful if you responded to Ms. Messina’s points , in order to continue a fact-based discussion of this important topic.
Caroline says
I don’t know why people think everything has to be so cookie-cutter. I personally am a vegan and have been one for over a year and have had nothing but great benefit from it. It is RARE that I consume soy products or gluten grains, and grains in general are certainly not a staple in my diet (except perhaps quinoa).
I had a B12 deficiency BEFORE I became a vegan, back when I was regularly eating meat and dairy. According to my doctor, some people simply do not absorb it through animal products and require a supplement, and she said I was one of those people.
There is not one diet that is perfect for everyone. If there was, we wouldn’t need all the glorious food variety and options that we have. I am a vegan and love being vegan, but that does not mean it is the right diet for everyone. As such, I don’t try to push my belief system on others or tell them that their diet will lead to bad health (unless, of course, they are living on a diet of fast food and processed meats and grains!)
I believe that no matter what diet or lifestyle you choose to follow, you need to do your research and be aware of the potential pitfalls.
No matter what, we’re all trying to be healthy here and we care about what we put in our bodies. That’s (unfortunately) a lot more than most of America can say. So let’s encourage each other and build each other up, not fight over whose diet is better! 🙂
Erica says
It’s not that vegans think people who eat meat are “meanies”, Colin. If you turn you thoughts to slavery for a moment you will realize that there were some people called abolitionists who felt that until slavery was ended in this country nothing that was built on it was right and business could not proceed as usual. Then there were the majority of people who argued pro and con based on their own cost/benefit ratio or simply whether it was what they were used to and comfortable with and couldn’t really consider any other way. You no doubt have a sense of the years and violence that went into changing the conversation and the reality on the ground.
There are people now who have the same view of the use and abuse of animals, who are innocent equal creatures and not made for man’s use, as slaves were not made for other men’s use. You can pull out the Bible, as people did then, to justify how black men were born to be slaves, as sons of Ham, and some probably still would argue a mistake was made in ending it, as people do to justify animal use, however it’s rather more than “meanies” who stood against slavery. If you can shift your context you can get a sense of what animal abolitionists are trying to convey. I have no doubt the battle will be as pitched as it was against human slavery, but also that in the long run the expansive moral arc of the universe tends toward the good (paraphrase) and for many reasons our direct use and abuse of animals must wane, especially in countries where this is not based on starvation need. Personally my line is drawn at if you own a cow and it has a calf and there’s some milk left over, go ahead and make cheese. I’m talking about factory farming primarily because of the scope, farming for fur, canned hunts, puppy mills, etc. Abusive use for personal gain.
Karin says
“I’m talking about factory farming primarily because of the scope, farming for fur, canned hunts, puppy mills, etc. Abusive use for personal gain.”
None of which are defended on this thread.
In fact, almost everyone on this thread has gone out of his/her way to talk about just how horrific those things are, despite the fact that that is NOT the focus of the article.
Perhaps because you are relatively new to these realities, you assume that we are too. I’ve watched the videos and been to the stockyards, Erica. I’ve taken pictures of “battery hens”. I’ve personally cleaned up pigs and rescued chickens. I know what is going on.
As does (almost) every other person on this thread. We have consistently decried those things. So if you think that informing us that “meat eater=me and vegan=holistic” adds anything of substance to the conversation, then you are deeply misguided.
If, however, you have a plan of how to create a sustainable veganic agricultural system, I think that many of us would love to hear it.
FrankG says
I don’t see anyone here promoting factory farming.. quite the opposite in fact. So I suspect you are presenting a false dichotomy. Again trying to make this an emotion-charged discussion rather than rational reasoning.
So maybe try setting that aside for now and accept that many (most… all?) here agree that: the current system of abusive, cruel, unjustified and unsustainable factory farming (plus vast crop mono-culture) has to change?
In terms of all animals (including humans?) being “innocent equal creatures” where do you draw the line?
Mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, insects, microbes…? What about 1,000 year old giant sequoia trees?
ALL life on this planet (so far as is currently known) comes from the same common ancestor — animals AND plants.
I watched a show about Wales yesterday, where they showed a Yew tree in a Conwy graveyard that has been aged at 4,500 years.. it was growing when Stonehenge was being built and is still alive today!
I’ve also seen comments here about “minimizing harm” and that plants have no complex nervous system – like we do.
Key phrase that “like we do”…
Is that how we decide which life we need to borrow so that we can continue on for a while, until our life goes back into the general pool? Base it on anthropomorphic methods of deciding sentience, or value?
Sources have already been offered showing the growing field (hah) of research into how plants “sense” and interact or “behave” with their environment.. in many ways along the same lines as animals do… hardly surprising as we share a common ancestor.
Colin says
@ Erica: Care to tell a black person to their face what you just told me? I’d love to see that go down. Evoking images of slavery just so you can gain the moral highground in a discussion about food is pretty ridiculous.
Also, you act like omnivores (btw, you’re an omnivore, too. you’re just living against your nature) hate animals and love to see them suffer…..or that we’re too ignorant and if only we had people like you to shame us into accepting your worldview. Grow up.
Judy says
Many black vegans do compare the farming of animals to slavery. And I know a Holocaust survivor who sees similarities between it and the Holocaust. Don’t assume everyone feels a certain way about the use of a word based on their heritage.
Being omnivorous means we *can* eat just about anything. It doesn’t mean we have to. or even that we should.
Colin says
Basically the only reasons to go vegetarian or vegan is because of ethical reasons….or maybe the idea of eating meat turns your stomach. The health argument has never held water with me. Also, the dirty little secret of veganism is that many people (usually young females) are drawn to because it easily covers up their eating disorder.
Here’s an anecdote….I knew this girl who was normal and well-adjusted and then she became a radical vegan and now she thinks she’s a transsexual cat named George. I’m not kidding. Vitamin deficiencies are no joke. They can literally drive you crazy.
FrankG says
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/03/animal-protein-as-bad-as-smoking/
“Call me suspicious, but I always check for conflicts of interest and the lead researcher, Dr Longo, has declared interests in (actually, he’s the founder of) L-Nutra – a company that makes ProLon™ – an entirely plant based meal replacement product.”
And it was not just Valter D. Longo but three others of the authors (Sebastian Brandhorst, Priya Balasubramanian and Luigi Fontana) also working for L-Nutra…
http://www.l-nutra.com/index.php/about/team
Suzie says
And what about our oceans?
http://n.pr/1eI48ua
http://youtu.be/Bo_f8mV5khg (beautiful interlude amongst all the brain work)
And:
Worldwide, over 25% of all the world’s fish stocks are either overfished or depleted.
Another 52% are fully exploited.
(Fully exploited: the number of fish taken out equals the number being born; Any further increase in fish caught will lead to overfishing, and then to collapse.)
Fish farming is not a viable solution.
*Above stats from State of World Fisheries and Aquaculture (SOFIA) can be found on http://www.fao.org/sof/sofia/index_en.htm
I just don’t need to eat fish/seafood/fish oil – this is just my personal choice. I know and love people who do but even they eat less than before.
charles grashow says
http://www.naturaleater.com/science-articles/Paleolithic-Nutrition-Twenty-Five%20Years-Later-Eaton.pdf
“Reduction of carbohydrates to extremely low levels is not consistent with the HG model, but neither is a very high CHO, “meat as a condiment”–type diet; furthermore, CHO sources are important. HG CHO came from fruit, vegetables, and nuts, not from grains. Refined, concentrated CHOs such as sucrose played virtually no role, and the consumption of plant CHO necessarily resulted in high fiber intake. If we were to rebuild the food pyramid along HG lines, the base would not be grains but fruits and vegetables, which could be chosen to provide adequate fiber content. The second tier would be meat, fish, and low-fat dairy products, all very lean. Whole grains might come next (although even these were very unusual for HGs), whereas fats, oils, and refined carbohydrates would occupy the same very small place at the top, essentially functioning as condiments in a healthy diet. These guidelines would not exactly replicate the HG diet in terms of food categories, but it would do so roughly in terms of macronutrients.”
FrankG says
SO — all hunter gatherers around the globe ate the same things??? Not likely
charles grashow says
That’s what Melvin Konner, MD, PhD and S. Boyd Eaton, MD say in the article
Read it and offer criticism of their methods
FrankG says
“Read it and offer criticism of their methods”
It is obvious that not all geographic regions of the world offer the same food resources.
I prefer to think for myself, rather than unquestioningly accept the word of “experts”.
FrankG says
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/03/animal-protein-as-bad-as-smoking/
For example…
>>Association between protein and mortality
This is a direct quotation from the article (my emphasis): “Using Cox Proportional Hazard models, we found that high and moderate protein consumption were positively associated with diabetes-related mortality, but not associated with all-cause, CVD [cardiovascular], or cancer mortality when subjects at all the ages above 50 were considered.”
i.e. when we looked at the 6,381 over 50 year olds there was not even an association with protein intake and all-cause mortality, or CVD mortality, or cancer mortality.
There was a relationship with diabetes mortality and protein intake, but the numbers were so tiny (one death from diabetes in one group) that this was not considered important.
And that could have been the headline – “There is no association between protein intake and mortality” – but then there would be no headline. <<
charles grashow says
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dmrr.2519/full
Ma-Pi 2 macrobiotic diet and type 2 diabetes mellitus: pooled analysis of short-term intervention studies
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01/nurtrion-news-quicky-energy-reduction.html
As you can see if you take a look at the typical diet composition of the subjects in the first, prospective trial (Porrata. 2009; see Table 2), the “macrobiotic” intervention was exclusively food based. It was composed of 40–50% whole grains (rice, millet and barley), 30–40% vegetables (carrots, kale, cabbage, broccoli, chicory, onions, red and white radish, parsley), and 8% legumes (adzuki beans, chickpeas, lentils, black beans), plus gomashio (roasted ground sesame seeds with unrefined sea salt), fermented products (miso, tamari, umeboshi) and seaweeds (kombu, wakame, nori).
Bancha tea (tannin-free green tea) was the main source of liquid. The food intake was measured using the weight method for 7 consecutive days in the 2nd and 4th months of the intervention. The same goes for the compliance with the recommended (100% idiotic) macronutrient composition, according to which the subjects had to consume 15%, 20% and 65% of total energy in form protein, fat and carbohydrates, respectively.
charles grashow says
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/?report=classic
Conclusion
A low-carbohydrate diet based on animal sources was associated with higher all-cause mortality in both men and women, whereas a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet was associated with lower all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality rates.
Discussion
In our two cohorts of U.S. men and women with up to 20-26 years of follow-up, we observed that the overall low-carbohydrate diet score was only weakly associated with all-cause mortality. However, a higher animal low-carbohydrate diet score was associated with higher all-cause and cancer mortality, while a higher vegetable low-carbohydrate score was associated with lower mortality, particularly CVD mortality.
Low-carbohydrate diets from animal and vegetable sources may have similar major macronutrient content, but the source of the macronutrients can result in large differences in dietary components that may affect mortality, such as specific fatty acids, protein, fiber, vitamins and minerals, and phytochemicals. Therefore, the associations that we observed are more likely to be mediated by these bioactive components rather the carbohydrate content.
In conclusion, consumption of a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet were associated with a lower risk of all-cause and CVD mortality whereas a high scores for the animal-based low-carbohydrate diet were associated with a higher risk of overall mortality. These results suggest that the health effects of a low-carbohydrate diet may depend on the type of protein and fat, and that a diet including mostly vegetable sources of protein and fat is preferable to a diet with mostly animal sources of protein and fat.
charles grashow says
Dr. McDougall Criticizes Low-carb Diets (And Tells Why the Rice Diet Is Best)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOfF_r2R8QM
Published on Feb 26, 2014
Dr. John McDougall presents The Ultimate Diet Therapy at the February, 2014, Advanced Study Weekend and the Flamingo Resort in Santa Rosa, California.
charles grashow says
http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/abstract/S1550-4131%2814%2900062-X#Summary
Notably, our results showed that the amount of proteins derived from animal sources accounted for a significant proportion of the association between overall protein intake and all-cause and cancer mortality. These results are in agreement with recent findings on the association between red meat consumption and death from all-cause and cancer (Fung et al., 2010,Pan et al., 2012). Previous studies in the U.S. have found that a low carbohydrate diet is associated with an increase in overall mortality and showed that when such a diet is from animal-based products, the risk of overall as well as cancer mortality is increased even further (Fung et al., 2010,Lagiou et al., 2007). Our study indicates that high levels of animal proteins, promoting increases in IGF-1 and possibly insulin, is one of the major promoters of mortality for people age 50–65 in the 18 years following the survey assessing protein intake.
Although protein intake is associated with increased mortality for adults who were middle-aged at baseline, there was also evidence that a low protein diet may be hazardous for older adults. Both high and moderate protein intake in the elderly were associated with reduced mortality compared to that in the low protein group, suggesting that protein intake representing at least 10% of the calories consumed may be necessary after age 65 to reduce age-dependent weight loss and prevent an excessive loss of IGF-1 and of other important factors. In fact, previous studies have noted that an increased protein intake and the resulting increase in IGF-1 may prove beneficial in older adults (Heaney et al., 1999), and the switch from the protective to the detrimental effect of the low protein diet coincides with a time at which weight begins to decline. Based on previous longitudinal studies, weight tends to increase up until age 50–60, at which point it becomes stable before beginning to decline steadily by an average of 0.5% per year for those over age 65 (Villareal et al., 2005,Wallace et al., 1995). We speculate that frail subjects who have lost a significant percentage of their body weight and have a low BMI may be more susceptible to protein malnourishment. It is also possible that other factors such as inflammation or genetic factors may contribute to the sensitivity to protein restriction in elderly subjects, in agreement with our mouse studies.
charles grashow says
In agreement with other epidemiological and animal studies (Estruch et al., 2013,Linos and Willett, 2007,Michaud et al., 2001,Willett, 2006), our findings suggest that a diet in which plant-based nutrients represent the majority of the food intake is likely to maximize health benefits in all age groups. However, we propose that up to age 65 and possibly 70, depending on health status, the 0.7 to 0.8 g of proteins/kg of body weight/day reported by the Food and Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine, currently viewed as a minimum requirement, should be recommended instead of the 1.0–1.3 g grams of proteins/kg of body weight/day consumed by adults ages 19–70 (Fulgoni, 2008). We also propose that at older ages, it may be important to avoid low protein intake and gradually adopt a moderate to high protein, preferably mostly plant-based consumption to allow the maintenance of a healthy weight and protection from frailty (Bartali et al., 2006,Ferrucci et al., 2003,Kobayashi et al., 2013).
FrankG says
Of mice and men… LOL
“Here, we combined an epidemiological study of 6,381 US men and women aged 50 and above from NHANES III, the only nationally representative dietary survey in the United States, with mouse and cellular studies to understand the link between the level and source of proteins and amino acids, aging, diseases, and mortality.”
Study says “dietary survey”… so NOT an RCT then…? I thought you subscribed to higher standards of research Charles?
Telegraph article says “Nutritional advice has traditionally focused on cutting down on fat, sugar and salt. The World Health Organisation will announce a consultation today suggesting that guidelines on sugar consumption should be lowered, but there have few warnings about excess protein.”
Call me skeptical but the timing of this report could not be better from the point of view of those with a ve$ted interest in the current $tatus quo
“The study population included 6,381 adults ages 50 and over from NHANES III, a nationally representative, cross-sectional study. Our analytic sample had a mean age of 65 years and is representative of the United States population in ethnicity, education, and health characteristics (Table S1).
On average, subjects consumed 1,823 calories, of which the majority came from carbohydrates (51%), followed by fat (33%) and protein (16%), with most of it (11%) derived from animal protein.”
51% of energy from carbs… but no question it’s the protein that’s doin’ ’em in!
These comments by Professor Sanders are helpful. It seems remarkable that the study would not control for variables such as smoking.
Prof Tom Sanders, Head of the Nutritional Sciences Research Division, King’s College London, said:
“The headline of the press release from the University of Southern California is running ahead of the evidence, and the comparison with smoking is really unwarranted in terms of the relative risks and the certainty of the adverse effects of smoking. The study shows a relationship with growth factor IGF-1 and cancer risk which is already known. However, the relationship between IGF-1 levels and protein intake is far more tenuous in humans. Cross-sectional data i.e. omnivores vs vegans suggest animal protein to be associated with increased IGF-1 levels but there is a lack of evidence from controlled feed studies to show that IGF-1 levels fall when animal protein intake is restricted. Much of the supporting work is based on studies in mice not humans. Dietary guidelines should not be based on animal experiments.
“Although the follow-up on the NHANES survey* shows that those with the highest reported protein intake were at greater risk of all-cause mortality, it fails to adjust for other confounding factors such as socioeconomic status, smoking, and obesity. The sample size is also modest at 6381, compared with over 448,568 in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer which only found a weak association (14% increase in risk of mortality with red meat consumption, which was more consistent for processed meat (11% increase in risk)). The European data suggest a much smaller effect than the 74% increased risk claimed in this paper.
“Also, the study does not control for the overall balance of the diet. People who eat large amounts of animal proteins often have other aspects of their diet which are imbalanced such as low intakes of fruit and vegetables. I think the next step would be to show that changing protein intake in the range of normal human intakes influences IGF-1 levels. IGF-1 levels may well be programmed in early development and dietary protein intake in adult life may well be less important in later life. This would be consistent with the observation that accelerated growth in childhood is associated with increased height and a high risk of cancer in later life.”
Erica Martell says
Paul – I just want to say I respect your point of view and your actions and out of the hundreds of comments here it is the only one I’ve seen that balances the two sides. I’m tending towards being an ethical vegan based on the fact that the meat I would eat would all be CAFO, or “happy” grass with CAFO slaughter. Many people aren’t at the point where they can really sort these issues appropriately onto a continuum and integrate them into
a logical framework. If you’ve made the leap to ethical veganism you are past the point where supplementing with B12 is going to move you. If you eat meat ethics hasn’t really occurred to you as the issue, and the conversation has been only about personal micronutrient one-upmanship. Personally I respect your decision to hunt if you want to eat meat – it’s healthier meat – and you are owning your own actions. The largest issue with CAFO’s is not that man ate meat in the past, or that animals kill each other in the wild – the largest issues are the violence, the slavery and abuse, and the misuse of antibiotics secondarily to that violence – nothing you couldn’t tell me as well.
FrankG – you have been trolling this discussion since Day 1, for several weeks now, trying to incite anyone you can get a hold of to argue with you. Funny quote for you “Who knew that we’d be holding a device that had the information of the world at our fingertips and we’d use it to look at pictures of cats and to argue with strangers.” Don’t respond. I’m done.
FrankG says
And yet you failed to answer any of the direct question put to you… while you persistently misrepresent the views of those you colour as “the other side”.
My choices are not simply based on what is best for my own health, or my nutrient choices… I take a much wider and dare I say ethical view, of my carefully considered decisions.
Paul says
Just a thought or more like a nightmare I’ve had for years. You are familiar with CAFOs…so if you took that to its ultimate conclusion I can see a system that produces boxed meat. Its not a sentient animal starting out on a farm eating grass but starts in box with input hoses for nutrients and output hoses for waist. They are all stackable. They all start the same…Pork, beef, or chicken is selected in the control room via algorithm that reads the market demand. At maturity the hoses are taken off and a fork truck picks up pallets or tons of meat ready to be sliced in your kitchen.
Ok, I want off the planet now.
Paul says
The problem i see with almost all young vegetarians that I know, their practice is to just take out meat and other animal products. That leaves a huge and dangerous hole in their diets. Cheese pizza, pizza roles, and cheese Mac is not good vegetarian practice. They just eat junk. They don’t know how to cook and they are too busy to study the practice correctly.
They have vague, fuzzy and not well developed ideas on virtue and health and they settle into eating highly processed garbage.
Paul says
The way I see it, the only real reason to go Veg is spiritual, and that in and of itself is legitimate. Animal compassion is part of human nature and is again legitimate. I bow to and honor vegetarianism. However I am an omnivore. I hunt dear. I thought that if I was going to continue being one I should have the knowledge, skill, and spiritual nuts to kill my own food. How many omnivores kill or witness the killing of animals for food? I will not criticize vegetarians.
However we are “trapped” in a paleo body and we have to make choices.
I was on the bubble until I read Michael pollan’s book ” The Omnivores Dilemma”. He talks about this, but my takeaway was the aspect of the kill. My deer are wild animals and I practice “fair chase” and I do not kill unless it is as clean and swift as possible. I can pass if need be. I know a vegetarian may not understand this…it’s still killing, but Pollan has a proper (for me anyway) take on this, which is to say that killing a wild animal through fair-chase is as about as “good” as it gets when com paired to the CAFO system and if I remain a meat eater then I need to do it myself if I can. I will say that it is not easy for those of us that are not deluded.
I have a real concern that, Based upon Pollan’s book the Paleo movement how are we to sustain omnivoreism and do it correctly. I can not even get grass-beef locally, and how long will the fisheries last if everyone went back to our paleo roots? CAFO animal systems make meat cheap and plentiful but is it worth eating and it’s harming our bodies and the planet. The planet can not afford the acreage it takes to grass raise animals. Vegetarianism is at least more sustainable in the medium run until CAFO style plant factories start pumping out lousy veggies. What can sustain seven billion humans?
FrankG says
“The planet can not afford the acreage it takes to grass raise animals.”
Much grazing-land worldwide is not suitable for any other kind of agriculture, and raising livestock on pasture (or even very poor land) adds to the topsoil in a sustainable way; as opposed to growing plants which depletes the soil.
I do fear that there are just too many humans on the planet but I don’t see this as an issue of rearing animals but rather the senseless and greedy waste of non-renewable resources such as fossil fuels; which currently, artificially buoy up an unsustainable system. In this latter regard, the vast mono-cultures of crops are just as much a problem as the CAFOs
I do applaud your attitude to hunting and can personally relate. I think that being in touch with my true human nature and recognising my place in the ecosystem is essential to our future survival. I do not think that killing and eating animals is in any way hypocritical.. quite the opposite in fact.
Paul says
Regardless of how we do it, we need to look at more options not previously considered. We have a very narrow plant/animal food inventory. You can’t raise enough grass-beef…the quality requirements for grass are much too stringent if we want to convert it into quality human nutrition. Same for plant based systems.
Monsanto moves in and either steals the gene pool or wipes it out in order to sell their own gene pool. Every corner of the globe will need to supply indigenous food on every acre it will grow on, problem is, free market globalization may not support that kind of cultural autonomy.
In the long run we may have to loose our love for food as a passion. In order to feed billions of people we will need frankenfoods.
FrankG says
“…the quality requirements for grass are much too stringent if we want to convert it into quality human nutrition.”
On the contrary, herbivores are far more efficient at turning poor soil and what grows in it, into quality human nutrition (while simultaneously improving that soil for sustainable growth) than we currently are with our wasteful and unsustainable use of non-renewable resources.
Karin says
Paul,
As a former ethical “vegan”, who changed my position only after I realized that my position was both intellectually and morally bankrupt, I appreciate where you’re coming from.
From my perspective, the best current personal options we have for compassionate living are either supporting permaculture-based systems that are using livestock or returning to the wild and hunting for ourselves, as you describe. There is no viable vegan option, as far as I can see.
I have a degree in crop and soil science, and I’ve asked people to share with me a plan about how we could possibly have a NON animal-based food system. And no one has offered even a rough outline of a plan. I don’t mean to be patronizing to anyone, but I feel the need to drive the point home: Where do you think that we get the nutrients to replace those that are removed when we harvest the plants?
Almost all of the produce that you buy is dependent on CAFO’s. This article will give you a rough idea of what I’m talking about:
http://www.biofortified.org/2013/12/organic-farming-reliant-on-synthetic-nitrogen/
That is the most likely reason that arsenic got into the “organic” rice…..the big organic manufacturers buying the chicken manure from the CAFO’s. (The chicken manure had arsenic because the giant poultry people were actually feeding it to the chickens!) So if you buy “vegan” food from the typical grocery store you are almost always supporting the folks who profit from the WORST POSSIBLE treatment of animals.
This is why I contend that, short of hunting, gardening, and gathering food for yourself, the best current way to support BETTER treatment of animals is to buy all food DIRECTLY from small farmers who incorporate animals into their own system.
I don’t know what you have already read thus far in this discussion, so I’m not going to repeat myself, but I do submit to you that compassionate living is highly context-dependent. So, it’s quite different to be a “vegan” living in Florida than a “vegan” Inuit. The latter is deluded if he actually thinks that having fresh produce delivered to his door is more ethical/compassionate than just killing and eating the fish around him. (I’m sure that this is probably obvious to you, but believe it or not, this is perceived as a reactionary and “self-centered” idea to some on this forum).
This is one reason that I’m so passionate about opposing “veganism” in its current incarnation, and put the word in quotes. The reality is that I don’t believe I’ve ever met an actual vegan!
Paul says
“Companionate living” first requires educating and empowering women in order to slow population growth, then religions need a ground shaking awakening in its “dominion” dogmas and then local people need to be allowed to raise there own crops, and the lust for western consumerism needs to burn out.
Karin says
Paul,
Yes, I agree. Preferably all of those things at once.
FrankG says
Denise Minger and Chris Kresser are real people… inherent in that is a certain level of accountability to what they write and post… up to and including, potentially legal liability for any advice they may give. The research they offer is based on the scientific method.. open to critical scrutiny. the vegan agenda on the other hand is driven by emotion rather than unbiased reason. Just as witnessed in the comments section here.
If the research on PP’s site is valid, then it will be available elsewhere, without a strong vegan slant put onto it.
That you fail to see (or accept) my concerns regarding PP, underlines for me your lack of credibility in these matters.
OpenMind says
I respectfully disagree with you on many points you just made.
And you still did not answer my question, but it appears as though the research you have done is reading blogs – Kresser and Minger to name 2 you site. Thats ok, it is just not enough for me.
FrankG says
My other response is awaiting moderation but in short I owe you no explanation. I am well read and convinced of what I know. You claiming to be “OpenMinded” while persisting in promoting an obviously biased blogger, leaves me in little doubt as to your true agenda here.
OpenMind says
Nope, I was sharing a link for those who might be interested. All bloggers are biased for they are people.
FrankG says
…but some are more people than others.
FrankG says
…and some are more biased than others.
Sure Chris Kresser and Denise Minger (as examples) based on their current convictions, may have a certain slant towards Paleo, LCHF, WAPF, or whatever, but fundamentally they are still wiling to follow wherever the data leads.
Vegan “science” starts and ends with “killing animals is wrong”… such dogma prevents a person following the data in an unbiased fashion.
OpenMind says
Did your response ever go through-I don’t see it? If not can you re-post?
OpenMind says
See your response now and Wow. Sorry, this is simply not true whether you eat meat or not: per you “Vegan “science” starts and ends with “killing animals is wrong”… such dogma prevents a person following the data in an unbiased fashion.”
But it does tell me why you never answered my question as to where you do your research -you apparently don’t. If you did at least read research you find data/research not based on the premise you state but rather trying to find out pieces to better health – hate to break it to you – no one has all the answers.
FrankG says
“…hate to break it to you – no one has all the answers.”
Where exactly do you see me claiming any different?
Do you think that spouting platitudes makes you sound wise or something?
The scientific method is driven forward by questions… if all the answers were ever found, it would stop..! that is why dogma (such as veganity) is the antithesis of science.
You honestly expect me to believe that I could search the PCRM or PP site and find research that promoted animal-products as healthy alternatives, without, at the very least, some commentary or opinion “debunking” such a study?
OpenMind says
“Where exactly do you see me claiming any different?”
You constantly do this by claiming that researchers present findings in favor of the value of eating plants can be dismissed on the basis: (1) “Vegan “science” starts and ends with “killing animals is wrong”… such dogma prevents a person following the data in an unbiased fashion.” (2) “expecting unbiased research from such an agenda is like expecting unbiased information on race-relations from a bunch of neo-nazis”. for 2 examples. This way of thinking is may be helpful to others but not to me personally.
FrankG says
You make no logical sense, it seems pointless trying to have any kind of discussion with you… I was responding to your platitude that “…hate to break it to you – no one has all the answers.”
I agree that no-one has all the answers.
I take issue with vegan dogma because they THINK that they DO have the answers. They are wrong.
My position (and that of the scientific method) is open to change if/as further evidence is presented. Up to and including the possibility (no matter how remote it may currently seem) that becoming a vegan may be best for me and the planet.
A dogmatic vegan who believes that “killing animals is wrong” resists any attempt at revising that attitude in the same way that a new earth creationist resists any attempt to convince them (with evidence) that the Earth is over 4 billion years old and we have evolved from simpler lifeforms. Hard to reason with blind faith and emotion-based choices.
OpenMind says
I personally want to make the most informed decision and try to separate out fact from opinion. Kresser also advocates for supplements for animal eaters – so whats the point here. I don’t know of any woman, with means, that doesn’t take prenatal vitamins and give their children vitamins. So take a vitamin if you want to.
But what we eat has so many variables including culture, beliefs, money tied to our stance, etc. Reading through the posts, I am surprised how those that eat meat/animal products – think that this is not the norm that science has not been “on their side” so to speak. Looking at the history of food, in the US at least, it is the vegans/vegetarians that have been on the fringes and remain there (although their numbers are growing). Even researchers who have found saturated fats and high cholesterol, etc. may lead to disease – still eat/ate it. Human behavior is so interesting to say the least.
For those research-minded who don’t have time to research every article cited in the Paleo circles, check out http://www.plantpositive.com. A large body of work from a nutritional researcher that at least raises some educated perspectives.
FrankG says
Right… so be “OpenMinded”, make an informed decision (just so long as it is the *right* one.. wink wink) and as we know you are all too busy to do your own research, let a vegan tell you what to think.. OK?
OpenMind says
You jump very quickly to conclusions about people. I really am doing my own research, including reading Kresser’s site, Plant Positive, PubMed, Medline, etc. I also own and have read too many books on both sides to list here but including The Paleo Diet, Primal Body Primal mind, Vegetarian Myth, China Study, Reversing Heart Disease, The Seduction of Food, The Spectrum, etc.
So it sounds like you do your own research too, what sources do you use besides Kresser?
FrankG says
“You jump very quickly to conclusions about people.”
Actually my default position is that there is goodness in all people and I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt… on the other hand I have read enough to learn when someone is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Momma didn’t raise no fool…
FrankG says
You see what really gets me thinking is why the need to play games and hide, if you have the truth on your side?
Here we have someone calling themselves “OpenMind” earlier we had “OnTheFence”.. both with obvious vegan agendas. Then there is my favourite [Vegan] Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine…
I don’t take issue with anyone having an vegan agenda or point of view — that is your right to have and mine to disagree with — but if it is based in truth, facts, unbiased research etc… then surely it ought to speak for itself without resorting to subterfuge.
You stand a better chance of convincing me without playing games. Do you really have such a low opinion of others that you think them so easily hoodwinked into reading a site like PP? The end justifies the means perhaps? It’s for their own good maybe?
Sure there are lots of words on that site, plenty of quotes and links to research etc… (makes me wonder how it is all financed.. who has a vested interest in such an anonymous project?) BUT also an overriding amount of agenda-driven interpretation of that research and just plain opinion… verbiage which quite frankly I am not willing to wade through to try and sift for the facts. Much less so after such an underhanded attempt to trick me into reading there.
OpenMind says
Oh see my comment above. I am not trying to convince you or anyone – just sharing a site that shows the research, encourages one to look it up and read it for themselves- no hoodwinking.
I did find he says when it is his opinion but shows/sites the actually research for all to see. I guess you are not reader/listener “verbiage which quite frankly I am not willing to wade through to try and sift for the facts.” All the diet books and blogs are full of opinion smattered with fact.
FrankG says
Are you PlantPositive? Otherwise how do you know that this anonymous but crazily prolific blogger and YouTube poster (70 hours worth?!?) is a “nutritional researcher that at least raises some educated perspectives” …because he is not willing to share who he is or what qualifies him.
Once again, the truth has no need to hide behind subterfuge and anonymity.
OpenMind says
I am not PlantPositive. I personally don’t care that he is anonymous because he is showing research I can look up – see for myself – he is not selling a book he has to defend, site is not monetized, etc.
You didn’t answer my question “So it sounds like you do your own research too, what sources do you use besides Kresser?” and you are anonymous too.
If anyone else cares -I will include here to save a hoodwinking click to the website but is found under FAQs:
It was not a mere oversight that I left my name off of all my material. I have made the choice to remain anonymous. Since I don’t make money or personally benefit from this project there is no incentive for me to expose myself to all the negativity that would surely follow a disclosure of my identity (I have received more than enough flak as it is). I make no money from defending veganism and I never have. I have no affiliation with any animal rights organization. Not only have I provided you with references for everything I say, I have shown you actual pictures and scans of the relevant material in those references so you don’t need to track them down yourself. As I write this I don’t know of any advocate for Paleo/low-carb/saturated fat/cholesterol, etc. who has done any of these things with such scale and consistency. In addition, I maintain an active errata page.
FrankG says
Yes I read that FAQ and see no mention of “nutritional researcher” or “educated”…
Prove to me that the site is not funded by those with a vested interest. Who else has the time and money (just the access to studies is not cheap) to support such an effort?
I may be anonymous but I am not a blogger… I post under the same alias everywhere I post and I think that my comments speak for themselves. I make no claim to be an “expert”
I agree that all blogs books etc… have opinion interlaced with fact… my concern is being able to go in with the clear understanding that I am reading from an agenda-driven point of view (and vegan is very much agenda-driven) and not the way you are trying to portray it as if it were unbiased.
I don’t trust PP and I think you lack credibility.
OpenMind says
Still didn’t answer my question as to who/how/where you do your research?
For me, I don’t have trouble with knowing the credentials of PlantPositive, he shows the research articles. Also, as you have said before when defending Minger – it doesn’t matter. I was sharing a researched based site in case anyone wanted to take a look is all.
FrankG says
I don’t see that I owe you any explanation. I am comfortable with my own level of research and my own convictions on these topics.
So far as I am concerned you should feel free to share whatever you like… just be honest about it, or you can expect to be called on it.
drew says
Frank, seriously? You would sit back there behind your computer and wonder as to the motivations and possibly “hidden” funding being a vegan-oriented site, and consider it nefarious?
And you don’t use the same logic for everything else you see regarding food, regarding medicine, regarding things like diabetes and cancer, chemo et al?
Sometimes we must shake our heads collectively at the ridiculous efforts to maintain the same-ole same-ole.
Find ANY experienced heart surgeon that will undergo surgery prior to consulting with a plant-based specialist for his or her own health, and then perhaps we can talk.
FrankG says
Where exactly do you see me NOT applying the same critical scrutiny to ALL “expert” advice?
Veganity is an ideology… as I wrote in a comment below…
‘…[the scientific method] follows wherever the data leads.
Vegan “science” starts and ends with “killing animals is wrong”… such dogma prevents a person following the data in an unbiased fashion.’
Jenny Lee says
http://healthland.time.com/2014/02/24/7-reasons-vegetarians-live-longer/
FrankG says
Same source…
“People who don’t eat vegetarian can still be very healthy, and a vegetarian diet comes with its own health risks. For instance, research has also shown that vegetarians are at a higher risk for iron deficiencies, and some experts question whether children who are raised vegetarian get the right amount of nutrients for their growing bodies. Making sure you get the right amount of nutrients is important, and keeping your physician in the loop about your eating habits can make sure you’re meeting all the requirements for good health.”
Jenny Lee says
How irresponsible of you! A brand new meta-analysis does not seem to argue with what you are claiming here! Not that we don’t already have abundant evidence derived from countless studies supporting the health benefits of a plant-based diet, here is a new meta ananlysis just published in JAMA Internal Medicine, of 39 high quality studies with 21,…000 participants in 18 countries between 1900-2013, proving that vegetarians consistenly have lower blood pressure. While hypertension might seem harmless since it’s often presented without symptoms, overtime, it can can cause serious damage to our bodies – quietly. Some of those include damage to our arteries, heart, brain, eye, and kidneys. It is also one of the leading causes of stroke.
Elly says
I think everything is okay in moderation.
Try to eat balanced, try to eat ‘clean’ healthy foods.
Look after yourself, workout and be happy!
Who cares if you are vegan, vegetarian or eat meat, or only white meat, or hate eggs, or dont like olives!
Find a balance, be happy in yourself, dont judge others for their choices and you will find yourself not being so uptight having to defend your own choices!
AND FYI I have been a vegan, current vegetarian and ate meat!
I still cook meat for my partner! I dont care!
Just be happy and try to do the right thing by YOUR health, not by the standards and opinions of others, or by articles written for a majority of people, not individuals (which we all are!)
Corey Barnes says
You have no true facts to back what you are writing. An amino acid is an amino acid. Your body does not know the difference. The only leg you stand on is more protein per calorie. So what? B12 is found in soil that is why it is in meat, from grazing and eating plants. It can be supplemented quite easily. It is known that you are a paleo follower. Furthermore, you fail to mention the horrors that animals go through to become food. There is no such thing as humanely raised and slaughtered meat that is sold to the public. Articles like this are infuriating.
Kevin Connors says
It is called local farms. My family owns one and knows many farmers in the surrounding states. They raise them in a field, let them graze on the land, and when in comes time to slaughter them, they it do it one at a time. That is life as it has always been. I am not a paleo follower, I stated in my article, that any restrictive diet is inefficient! Enjoy taking supplements! I will enjoy eating 8 eggs with yolk, 1.5lbs of meat every day, along with fruits, veges and grains. I have went to the doctor and have received numerous blood tests… Cholesterol levels are great, triglycerides levels are great, blood pressure, water and fat soluble micro-nutrient uptake efficient, etc…
My facts are the family members, random people’s family members, that grew up on farms eating meat and lard, and are living 95+ years, walking around and not in wheel chairs, enjoying life as life should be.
But do what makes you happy, I could give you all the facts in the world to support my view, as people have on here already. Nothing I say will change your view, I am ok with that. Like great people have said before me… More meat for me!!!
Kevin Connors says
Vegans and Vegetarians, who believe they are being attacked when they are the ones judging others just the same, frustrate me greatly. As well as, argue, with a restrictive diet, that it is better than a non-restricted diet that includes: local, well treated and fed animals; variety of fruits and vegetables; nuts and seeds; and non-processed grains. Any food intake “diet” that restricts any whole food product, is inefficient. I do not care how healthy you feel, most, if not all vegetarians and vegans lack proper muscle and bone strength.
I am sure, the vegetarian or vegan that will argue with me, that has muscle, is taking supplements… And without supplements, the person that eats a variety of meat, fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, and grains; are the only people that will not be deficient in nutrients.
As a general guideline for daily protein intake:
–1 gram of protein per bodyweight in kg is needed in a Sedentary person, not doing anything; 1.2 – 2.0 grams of protein per bodyweight in kg is needed and recommended the more active a person is, and the stronger they want to be. If you just run and do not lift weights and tell me you cannot do squats, you further made my point, so thanks.
If you study those who grew up and work on farms, that eat all natural meat, veges, fruits, grains, etc; as stated above… Most always you here about them living 95 + years. Every older man or woman that I have talked to, and tell them about nonrestrictive diets, that has a parent or relative that was a farmer, stated that their relative lived 95 + years.
In conclusion, if you are skinny and feel healthy being a vegan or vegetarian, no matter what you say to justify your eating patterns, it is still a restrictive eating style, and inefficient in certain aspects. Any restrictive diet, is inefficient, even if it is not a vegetarian or vegan diet. So, this is not just a bash at those who are vegan or vegetarians, so don’t take it personally. Rather, take it in, understand, and accept it. You don’t have to change if you don’t want to, but stop trying to convince people that it is healthier to eat a restrictive way!!
Bethany says
Medical Doctor here….. I think it’s important to be able to critically appraise evidence and not just accept a reader’s interpretation of one particular study as truth. I was happy to see that someone posted a full rebuttal against this article (see above comment from Adam- Thanks, Adam!). Give it a read everyone, it might make you think twice about some of the arguments being made here.
Karin says
So I read through a few of the comments, and finally got to a chance to take a look at Adam’s article, and I came across the following paragraph:
In his dismissal of Kresser’s comments about Vitamin A, Adam states:
“I was quite shocked to find Vitamin A in this list of possible nutrient deficiencies. Not surprisingly, the author does not provide links to any peer-reviewed publication, but rather links to a page by the Weston Price Foundation which is an organization known to advocate the consumption of animal products.”
This the same Adam who wrote this to one commenter:
“I judge all arguments based on scientific merit, regardless of what side they come from.”
And this to another:
“If all you can do is dismiss claims based on what side of the fence you think they are coming from, then frankly, I am not interested in debating anything with you.”
But somehow Adam feels comfortable dismissing Dr. Chris Masterjohn’s masterful work, with over 70 scientific references, because he doesn’t like the site where it appears. Does anyone else see the irony?
Back to the article. Adam then goes on to state: “Arguing Vitamin A deficiency because conversion of beta-carotene is inefficient is a massive over-simplification and is not an argument for eating meat that stands up to scrutiny.”
Well, let’s see:
Variability of the conversion of beta-carotene to vitamin A in women measured by using a double-tracer study design.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10837297
“Blood beta-carotene and vitamin A responses to oral beta-carotene are variable in humans. Some individuals are characterized as responders and others as low- or nonresponders.
Variability in conversion of beta-carotene to vitamin A in men as measured by using a double-tracer study design
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11976165
“The vitamin A activity of beta-carotene, even when measured under controlled conditions, can be surprisingly low and variable.”
The contribution of β-carotene to vitamin A supply of humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21957049
“We conclude that a safe vitamin A intake in general cannot be reached by consuming only one component (vitamin A or β-carotene) alone, even in Western countries where animal products are commonly available.”
Lipids and Vitamin A and E Status in Vegetarian Children
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15213372
“In the group of vegetarian children mean plasma concentration of vitamin A and E was statistically lower as compared to those in non-vegetarian children.”
The challenge to reach nutritional adequacy for vitamin A: β-carotene bioavailability and conversion–evidence in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23053560
“β-Carotene is an important dietary source of vitamin A for humans. However, the bioavailability and vitamin A equivalency of β-carotene are highly variable and can be affected by food- and diet-related factors, including the food matrix, food-processing techniques, size of the dose of β-carotene, and the amounts of dietary fat, fiber,vitamin A, and other carotenoids in the diet as well as by characteristics of the target population, such as vitamin A status, nutrient deficiencies, gut integrity, and genetic polymorphisms associated with β-carotene metabolism. The absorption of β-carotene from plant sources ranges from 5% to 65% in humans. Vitamin A equivalency ratios for β-carotene to vitamin A from plant sources range from 3.8:1 to 28:1, by weight.”
Assessment and control of vitamin A deficiency: the Annecy Accords
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12221259
“Clinical trials and kinetic models indicate that young children in developing countries cannot achieve normal vitamin A status from plant diets alone. Fortification, supplementation, or other means of increasing vitamin A intake are needed to correct widespread deficiency. To improve the status of young infants, the vitamin A supplements provided to mothers during their first 6 wk postpartum and to young infants during their first 6 mo of life should be doubled.”
I think that these three statements bear repeating:
1. “The absorption of Beta carotene from plant sources ranges from 5% to 65% in humans.”
2. “Clinical trials and kinetic models indicate that young children in developing countries cannot achieve normal vitamin A status from plant diets alone.”
3. “We conclude that a safe vitamin A intake in general cannot be reached by consuming only one component (vitamin A or β-carotene) alone, even in Western countries where animal products are commonly available.”
So Dr. Bethany and Adam,
If 10,000 vegan pregnant women come to Adam’s site looking for nutritional information, and conclude based on the information provided there that there is no need to supplement with pre-formed Vitamin A, are you both comfortable with that? No potential problems there?
I don’t think Mr. Kresser is arguing that ALL vegetarians or ALL vegans are going to be deficient in any particular nutrient. I do think that he is arguing that SOME are…..because they are getting information that is grossly oversimplified and overly generalized….with really tragic consequences for many. And I agree.
And if I’m the fetus of a low- or non-responder to beta-carotene, I might grow up to think that folks like you should have been a little more careful about dismissing the issue as trivial…..provided that I’m lucky enough to grow up and develop into a fully functioning adult, that is.
Humans are not all the same–they are both complex and special. 🙂 I am both shocked and horrified that I have to explain this to both an M.D. AND a PhD. candidate in the same place….
FrankG says
Hear hear Karin 🙂
because it bears repeating…
“So Dr. Bethany and Adam,
If 10,000 vegan pregnant women come to Adam’s site looking for nutritional information, and conclude based on the information provided there that there is no need to supplement with pre-formed Vitamin A, are you both comfortable with that? No potential problems there?
I don’t think Mr. Kresser is arguing that ALL vegetarians or ALL vegans are going to be deficient in any particular nutrient. I do think that he is arguing that SOME are…..because they are getting information that is grossly oversimplified and overly generalized….with really tragic consequences for many. And I agree.
And if I’m the fetus of a low- or non-responder to beta-carotene, I might grow up to think that folks like you should have been a little more careful about dismissing the issue as trivial…..provided that I’m lucky enough to grow up and develop into a fully functioning adult, that is.”
And the veg*n response we keep getting to this line of reasoning..? “You weren’t doing it right” For shame!
Adam says
Yes, beta-carotene conversion from plants is low. Yes, vegans tend to have lower Vitamin A status compared to omnivores. Beta-carotene is only one of hundreds of different carotenoids in plants. To equate low beta-carotene conversion with Vitamin A deficiency is an error. If you do that, you’re no better than people that infer causation from studies showing correlation between meat consumption and heart disease.
The fact that children in developing countries are deficient is not surprising. Vitamin A status is not only affected by dietary intake, but by the health of the individual – infection can negatively affect Vitamin A levels, and repeated infections can deplete stores over time.
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN27_02%2FS0007114572001199a.pdf&code=edfb306fca01e3cabb451e4f5abcf862
In addition, children get most of their Vitamin A from their mother’s breast milk. If the mother is deficient, then the deficiency can easily be passed on to the next generation. If we add to the mix the fact that poverty is common in developing countries, food selection is less diverse than developed nations, and access to health care is sub-par, it’s pretty easy to see why infant mortality from nutritional deficiencies is so prevalent in these regions.
If you know of any hard data showing higher mortality in veg*ns resulting from Vitamin A deficiencies in developed nations, I would love to see it.
As for the 10,000 vegans, they should be consulting their physicians and addressing any deficiencies (including Vitamin A) that are present before getting pregnant, just like ALL women should do.
FrankG says
As has already been pointed out… all this vegan talk is a First World elitist fantasy/ideology… that doesn’t apply to the real world. How many women in developing countries have the luxury of ready access to a Doctor and blood tests… or planned pregnancies for that matter?
And if they were deficient in ay nutrients during pregnancy, or while breastfeeding… well I guess they just weren’t “doing it right”! Just so long as no animals were harmed.. eh?!?
And as it seems to need repeating: Chris Kresser’s article is titled “Why You Should Think Twice About Vegetarian and Vegan Diets”
…rather than “Why NO-ONE Should EVER EAT A Vegetarian OR Vegan Diet”
But then you’d get much less bank for your buck trying to “debunk” a reasonable caution.. much better to make a straw-man out of it.
Adam says
Funny that you point out the cautionary nature of the article, yet you have the most comments, all of which essentially boil down to the same “vegan propaganda” argument that you use to jump down the throat of anyone with the slightest resistance to your views, including other omnivores.
At least some people around here, like Karin, are actually scientifically literate and can present their arguments logically.
FrankG says
I don’t think it’s funny at all.
I take the health of humans, including the ecosystem which supports us, very seriously indeed.
Karin says
Frank, I admire you for striving to remain civil. Many people have remarkably little understanding of the complexities of these issues, and can’t think of a single intelligent or relevant thing to say, so they throw wild punches, hoping to provoke someone, if they can’t shut them up altogether. Or they resort to simplistic phrases like “Vegan=holistic Meat eater=me” -as if that is somehow a compelling or persuasive argument in the context of a conversation about human nutrition and physiology!
I am sorry that it offends certain commenters that some of us want to talk about human health and nutrition on a site that is devoted to the topic of human health and nutrition, but the fact of the matter is that this particular article is ABOUT human health and nutrition! If that makes me a “self-centered meat-eater” in Ms. Martell’s eyes (despite the fact that I don’t even happen to eat meat) then I can live with that.
Now, let’s get back to the topic of Vitamin A. 🙂
So Andy, you stated:
“As for the 10,000 vegans, they should be consulting their physicians and addressing any deficiencies (including Vitamin A) that are present before getting pregnant, just like ALL women should do.”
Well, Andy, I have to admit that I’m not surprised by that answer, because, well…..how else could you respond to my question, right?
However, it certainly SEEMS like a disingenuous answer. You know fully well that most vegan women aren’t going to their doctor and getting a full micro-nutrient assessment done before they get pregnant…..don’t you? And I’m sure that you are not so naive about the training of M.D.s to think that they have any extensive knowledge about nutrition, how all micro-nutrients interact, the role individual genetics play, etc. -Just try asking 100 vegan women if they think their doctor knows more about nutrition than they do! (I’ve yet to meet a physician who knows more about nutrition than my 9 year old son….lol).
And you undoubtedly know that most doctors (at least American Docs) aren’t about to suggest that extensive nutritional screening be done for their patients, even if they DID know how to interpret most of these tests, which they largely DO NOT.
Most doctors just tell women considering pregnancy to stop smoking, cut out the alcohol, and be sure to get some folic acid. Some might check for iron status. PCRM just advises women to: “Begin a healthful diet before you become pregnant.” Many will recommend a prenatal supplement, which in the case of vegan women will generally contain a small amount of beta-carotene as a source of vitamin A. And that’s that.
I was vegan at the beginning of my first pregnancy 10 years ago …and between the three midwives and one physician that I saw, I had about 2 minutes of conversation about my diet. I was pregnant again 3 years ago and had a similar experience. Unless I came in there with symptoms of PROFOUND AND OVERT signs of malnutrition, I was on my own.
So what would sort of comprehensive assessment for micro-nutrient status do you think is actually happening? Is it covered by insurance? Is it already standard protocol in Canada? Would you please share with us your recommended protocol? That way, women will know what specific tests to ask for when they visit their doctor. Thanks!
Also, I did note in your response to me, you did at least agree that conversion to Vitamin A from beta carotene is low, that vegans have lower Vitamin A status than omnivores, that children with compromised immunity and/or nutritional status are going to have trouble meeting their needs from plant sources alone….and yet…..
On your own blog you claim that it is “so easy to get it from plant sources.” You even inform the reader that one quarter of chopped carrots provide over 100% of the daily recommended intake of Vitamin A! REALLY? No caveats, qualifications necessary?
You then go on to claim: “If you know of any hard data showing higher mortality in veg*ns resulting from Vitamin A deficiencies in developed nations, I would love to see it.”
Oh dear……
So….is this really the standard that you want to set for children’s health?
We can point to data that shows that vegan children have lower Vitamin A levels, we can show studies that show that about 45% of the populace has varying degrees of difficulty converting beta carotene to Vitamin A in the blood, we can show that people with thyroid issues, or infectious diseases, or are otherwise compromised are likely to suffer from low Vitamin A status if they are ONLY consuming plant sources. But……..until we see “hard evidence” that vegan children are actually DROPPING DEAD at significantly higher rates than omnivorous children due to Vitamin A deficiencies in developed countries, we should just advise ALL women to become vegan because it is so damn “easy” to get our vitamin A from plant sources? Is that where you want to leave it?
Note to all sane and intelligent humans of whatever dietary persuasion:
It appears that the likes of Dr.Bernard, Dr. Gregor, Doc to be Adam, et. al will continue to make their incredibly asinine one-size-fits-all recommendations for everyone…..the individual be damned……..Their minions will continue to promote the “way” as long as their particular child is okay, as long as there remains a single studly looking vegan bodybuilder.
The burden of proof is on us.
Anne says
This is all so fascinating.
Some that comment….. those that have it all figured out…would be wise to remember that we….. like nature, are ever-changing and evolving ecosystems. Things can happen. What appears to be a perfect diet/lifestyle now may change as you grow older and succumb to our natural process ..evolution of passing.
It will never be as easy as eating one way or another. Lucky those who just go to sleep and that is that. Not many will be so fortunate. Disease will be a part of all of our lives. Diet in many forms will help some of us. Others will struggle to find something that they can tolerate if it is not too late.
This discussion will seem quaint if you ever find out you have Celiac or other such auto-immune that greatly contributes to health problems induced by diet that would appear to be uber- healthy.
A gluten-free diet is only part of a lifestyle change to which a person with Celiac must endure. Complex carbohydrates in the form of plant foods, dairy, fruits, vegetables, nuts, beans,etc. can be very offensive to a small intestine.
Enjoy your good health when you have it…as disease will drop you on your head..a wake-up call to the humble nature of our true being.
I am grateful for all those who comment in the spirit of helping,sharing their experiences, but not dictating their beliefs on what is a right way to eat.
Erica Martell says
Just wondering what is the purpose of spelling “veg*n” with a star?
One thing I notice is that most vegans are ethical vegans, whether or not they catch every single use of animal products. They don’t prioritize micronutrients, and they may or may not have figured it all out – we are moving forwards in terms of people’s understanding of how to execute diet. They prioritize the universal whole, whether or not trucks run over small animals while transporting coconuts or all the other odd points meat eaters make about why vegans aren’t perfect. Meat eaters only address their own well-being. Btw, Chris Kresser is not a doctor, he is an acupuncturist with an interest in digging up and correlating information, however focusing on the small details doesn’t always lead to the big answer, and Chris’s focus is on the well-being of his patients. Vegan focus is on the well-being of animals – or on ceasing the violence done to them in our name. Vegan – holistic Meat eater – me.
Kim S. says
An encompassing term that denotes both vegan/vegetarian, without having to type it all out.
FrankG says
I think your record is stuck Erica… try reading some of the replies to your earlier comments. To repeat myself… your assumptions about this “meat eater” are wrong.
FrankG says
Earlier Erica you stated ” OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon…”
…and before that you mentioned having been a pescatarian at some point (yes I do actually read the comments)…
so what gives..?
Are you a self-centered meat eater or a blessed vegan?
Wolf in sheep’s clothing, or a sheep in wolf’s?
Adam says
Here is a critical review of this article, coming from an omnivore.
http://www.debunkingnutrition.com/2014/02/does-plant-based-diet-lead-to-nutrient.html
Kim S. says
I just checked out that blog. The blogger may claim he’s an omnivore, but his site reeks of veg*nism.
Kim S. says
Lots of references and praise for Esselstyn and Furhman there. Not one reference to meat on that site except for his bio claim that he enjoys a good burger every once in a while. It appears he’s pushing a veg*n diet under the guise of an omnivorous diet so that he gets more traffic.
Is there by any chance a coincidence that you and he share the same first name?
Adam says
He’s me lol… and I do still eat meat. Funny that instead of arguing the facts, your defence is “I think he’s vegan.”
FrankG says
That.. in my view.. is a valid response, based on the little I have seen of your anonymous blog.
Veganity does not come from a basis of unbiased science but from emotion… “I don’t like killing animals!” So as I’ve repeatedly said, expecting unbiased research from such an agenda is like expecting unbiased information on race-relations from a bunch of neo-nazis.
If you think your little blog post has anything to add to the over 500 comments already posted here well good luck to you 😛
Adam says
It may be a valid response to you, but I think that’s sad. I judge all arguments based on scientific merit, regardless of what side they come from.
I am not a vegan and have little interest in the ethical reasons for being vegan. I am interested in science, period.
If all you can do is dismiss claims based on what side of the fence you think they are coming from, then frankly, I am not interested in debating anything with you.
FrankG says
Science does not take “sides”.
And why the heck you think anyone should accept the “judgement” of an anonymous blogger is beyond me 😛
But looks like you have a fan in “Bethany” below…
Adam says
I don’t think anyone should accept it – they can decide based on the merit of the argument. It doesn’t take popularity to be credible.
FrankG says
Who the heck said anything about “popularity’?
For example: Chris Kresser is obviously a real person… he has his picture and credentials posted here for everyone to judge for themselves whether they view him as a credible source or not… whether to even read his blog, or not!
I expect that some people have even met him in real life.
Beyond that he provides links that others can read for themselves.
Having read Good Calories, Bad Calories I no longer take any “expert” at their word.. least of all one that I literally cannot tell from the proverbial “Adam”.
You have no (zero) accountability to your readers… why would I even read your blog?
Sure I *might* find reasonable advice on race-relations at a neo-nazi website but I’m pretty sure I’d have to wade through the mire in order to find it… maybe I am better off going to the UN Human Rights Commission instead … what do you think?
Adam says
Oh dear… that’s all I have to say.
Juliet says
I’ve been vegan for over ten year, conceived two (super healthy) babies while vegan and and now raising them on this extraordinarily healthy diet. They are never sick (although it seems all their peers are!).Take a peak at how animals are raised for food (no matter how it’s done, it’s unsustainable and beyond cruel if you care even an ounce for animals – and this includes birds who are used for their eggs). Take a peak at the health of vegans who are doing it right (key phrase – doing it right!) as their are many. Kresser can continue to say whatever he wants and because of his status he has a certain amount of clout and people believe what he’s saying but it’s simply not true. You can achieve optimal health on a vegan diet. The methane gases from factory farms are single- handedly destroying our planet, yet there’s still a lot of money to be made and I’d question this doctors personal motivation behind his big meat push.
einstein says
first, i am sorry for your kids. comparing their health with the SAD junk eating other kids in class is misleading. you’d have to compare them to kids on a similar diet with added fish and grass fed meat to see the difference. second: those gases produced by cows are a byproduct of grass digestion with the help of bacteria in the bowel (cellulose is a polysacharide even the cow needs help with despite his 4 stomachs). vegans surely produce a lot of gases during digesting that plant matter in their bowels, thus ruining the planet too! beans, anyone? 🙂 and by the way no vegan under 40 has voting rights. trust me. a young body can take a lot of abuse, be it SAD or veganism. once you turn 40, all hell breaks loose if you don’t do it right. been there, lived it. just wait and see.
Judy says
Tell that to Ellworth Wareham, M.D., centenarian who retired as a surgeon at age 95. He’s been vegan for 50 years. He still mows his own lawn. Then there’s Ruth Heidrich, age 79, Ironman triathlete and health educator, who’s been vegan for 30 years. And the man who coined the term “vegan,” Donald Watson, lived a very healthy 95 years, spending the last 60 of them vegan.
Lucia Tilyard says
There are a number of flaws to this article. Here are just a few. a. He says the amount of veg you’ll need to eat to equal the Vit A in liver is: 2 cups of carrots, one cup of sweet potatoes or 2 cups of kale every day. That’s not an awful lot, the thought is mouth watering and an animal lives. b. He says we are low in Vit B 12, what he fails to mention, is that folic acid (high in veg) can do the job of B12, so it’s not really that necessary, and B 12 can be obtained from mushrooms, and an animal is spared. c. We are lacking in testosterone, so??? That’s probably why we are more peaceable, and an animal lives. Why does an acupuncturist think he is qualified to talk publicly about this? Not eaten animals for 50 years, have a healthy son – 21 – who has never eaten animals. I’m 63. There seems to be a huge backlash against our humanitarian movement, which is down to the fact that they are losing ground.
Why does this fellow, not mention homocystine, which is the proven reason that carnivores get cancer!
Judy says
Juliet, my vegan-since-conception ten-year-old is also super healthy and doesn’t catch the illnesses her classmates do. People’s concerns are misplaced.
James says
If you want actual facts about the points listed in this article then go to http://nutritionfacts.org/ and look them up.
FrankG says
“Actual facts”… wow! 😛
Kim S. says
Ah yes. Dr. Greger. The veg*n who claims that eating an egg, one of nature’s most perfect foods, is akin to smoking a cigarette. Next.
Dave says
He just cites studies like Kresser does.
No need to be offended by it.
Greg says
Mister Kresser,
Humans are the only of the Hominid line that eat meat as a major part of their diet. Humans as other hominids are built to eat plant matter (teeth, intestines).
einstein says
yes, we are the only ones. it is what made us what we are, beat the pack and take our place on the top of the food chain. thanks to meat our brains got bigger and smarter. humans are not built to eat exclusively plant matter. the silverback gorilla is. check and compare his digestive track to yours. if you don’t know the difference, you are ignorant.
FrankG says
Humans are opportunistic omnivores — as are our closest cousins the Chimpanzees…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyGxQq7jSA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhsM9OzeEo
Yes we can eat plants… we can eat animals…we can and do eat pretty much any other life-form on this planet.
Kathy says
Check out this extremely interesting debate – paleo versus plant based diets on Intelligence Squared
http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/past-debates/item/910-dont-eat-anything-with-a-face
Also, “Consumption of red meat has been found to increase the risk of death from heart disease, even when controlling for levels of fat and cholesterol2. To find out why, Hazen and his colleagues gave the nutrient l-carnitine — found in red meat and dairy products — to 77 volunteers, including 26 who were vegans or vegetarians. One committed vegan even agreed to eat a 200-gram sirloin steak.”
“Tests showed that consuming l-carnitine increased blood levels of trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO), a compound that, evidence suggests, can alter the metabolism of cholesterol and slow the removal of cholesterol that accumulates on arteries’ walls.”
“But even when they took l-carnitine supplements, vegans and vegetarians made far less TMAO than meat eaters. Faecal studies showed that meat eaters and non-meat eaters also had very different types of bacteria in their guts. Hazen says that a regular diet of meat probably encourages the growth of bacteria that can turn l-carnitine into TMAO.”
Double checking
To further make the case, researchers checked the levels of l-carnitine in the blood of nearly 2,600 people who were having elective heart check-ups. By itself, the nutrient didn’t seem to make a difference. However, people who had high levels of both l-carnitine and TMAO were prime targets for heart disease, further evidence that it’s the bacterial alchemy — not the l-carnitine alone — that poses the real threat.
Finally, the researchers found that feeding l-carnitine to mice doubled the animals’ risk of developing arterial plaques, but only when the mice had their usual gut bacteria. When the animals were treated with gut-clearing antibiotics, l-carnitine in the diet did not encourage plaques.
Daniel Rader, director of preventive cardiovascular medicine at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, says that the study makes a “fairly compelling” case that intestinal bacteria feeding on l-carnitine increase the risk of heart disease.
The finding should give pause not only to meat lovers, but also to people who take l-carnitine supplements, which are marketed with the promise that they promote energy, weight loss and athletic performance, says Hazen. “None of those claims have been proven,” he says. “I see no reason why anyone needs to take it.”
FrankG says
http://chriskresser.com/red-meat-and-tmao-its-the-gut-not-the-meat
FrankG says
I just went through the entire debate and I agree it is interesting. It did not change my position or my convictions but it was interesting.
My take on the panel, in case anyone cares…
Neal Barnard is slick — he knows how to present himself in front of an audience but he is also slimy… I do not trust him. I would not buy a used car from this man
Chris Masterjohn seemed overwhelmed and ineffectual,, sorry Chis but you had the facts.. just didn’t make a great impression with them. Neal Barnard was very pushy (to the point of being rude) and managed to establish himself as the de facto medical authority, which everyone seemed to buy into… no matter that he was being disingenuous
Joel Salatin is a very smart and down to earth guy… he knows what he is talking about and I could listen and talk with him all day
I think I was most impressed with Gene Baur… he seems to genuinely care and made some great points. I think he is misguided but I really liked him.
Michael Cohen says
I am a lifelong salesman and I saw immediately that Chris Masterjohn was in over his head. He wrongly assumed that being armed with the facts was enough in a debate setting. The famous vegan doctors are famous because they are super salesmen who have prepared answers for every question. The debate was a triumph of style over substance, talking points and 3 second sound bytes over facts.
FrankG says
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2013/04/10/does-carnitine-from-red-meat-contribute-to-heart-disease-through-intestinal-bacterial-metabolism-to-tmao/
Karin says
This is a blog by a woman who follows a carnivorous diet for health reasons. (Just meat and offal and bone broth).
http://www.empiri.ca/2012/08/my-carnivorous-diet.html
No, my point is not to convince anyone reading to consider an all-carnivorous diet. (I don’t even eat meat). I only mean to emphasize that the human body is VERY COMPLEX and a diet that works for you right now might not work for you in the future.
It should of course go without saying that what might work for you might NOT work for the person (especially the toddler) next door!
Karin says
Hi Terry,
Unfortunately, it’s difficult to decipher who is speaking to whom in this thread, but since your question appears directly underneath mine, I’m going to assume it’s directed at me.
Is this the quote that you wanted credited?
“Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.”
It’s by Christopher, and it appears in a statement directly above my own. I’m pleased to have an excuse to repeat it again. 🙂 Thanks for asking!
Lisa says
I’ve been Vegan for 17 years, I am healthy, less days off work due to sickness than anyone in my department, in fact I am struggling to work out when I was last of sick, could be four years ago when I got tonsilitus, (which meat eaters get too I believe!). If someone eats nothing but meat, they aren’t healthy, if someone eats nothing but tomatoes they aren’t healthy. Eat a balanced diet, change it up, whether you are Vegan, Veggie or meat eater, don’t buy this article. P.S. Does this guy hold stocks in a vitamin / supplement company????
Christopher says
I would’ve never guessed when I posted the first comment to this thread that there would be over 500 responses and an ever-escalating flame war. Speaking personally, I am astounded by the level of arrogance and close-minded thinking displayed by most vegans in this thread. But I am not surprised by it. When I was vegan, I was the same way. Plenty of compassion for animals but little for other people’s opinions.
The thing that stuns me most of all though is the naivete, particularly when it comes to the “less harm” doctrine of veganism. All of us, no matter what we eat, are causing tremendous amounts of harm daily. The only way to avoid doing so is to go off-the-grid and homestead, which very few of us are willing to do.
We can through studies back and forth at each other (and as much snark as science it seems) but at the end of the day, human beings en masse did not evolve as, or to be, vegans. Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.
My opposition to the factory farming of animals has not changed, nor has my opposition to conventional mono-cropping of agriculture and GMOs. Worldwide, agriculture is at the forefront of human problems, whether it is starvation or over-consumption or climate change and there are no easy answers, and that includes such simple slogans as “go vegan” or “go paleo.”
Karin says
Thank you, Christopher.
“Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.”
Hear, hear! It is the self-entitled elitism that disgusts me the most. I live near Amish communities where people live off the land with the use of animals who they respect. When I was a vegan, I thought I was too good to buy cheese from those farmers–that I was actually doing better by animals by buying food imported from all corners of the globe! As if those ships carrying coconuts from Thailand, chocolate from Africa, chia seeds from Bolivia, etc. etc. etc., have no impact on animal life! I blush at my ignorance now.
terry says
can you please credit that quote?
FrankG says
It is from the comment just above it, by Christopher 🙂
And I wholeheartedly agree… these are “first World” issues we are having rammed down our throats here… try preaching a vegan gospel in a country that does not have the infrastructure to ship fresh produce in at all times of the year.
Erica Martell says
It’s true that we, as Americans have received almost no information about nutrition or where our food comes from. Even the mis-directed food pyramid is relatively recent. It is true that one diet does not seem to work equally well for all people, but that many people who try to control their diet based on their concerns did not have the appropriate information to do so optimally, because it didn’t exist. It is heartening that so many people are now able to discuss these things with more information at hand. It doesn’t however necessarily translate into most people making every personal food choice based on macronutrients although people who like to hang out in chat rooms like to go on as though that is the key. It is also true that we have been almost completely kept in the dark about how intertwined our lives are with the most horrific cruelty towards animals and those who take pleasure in posturing about how irrelevant that is to them are mis-directed, and that is certainly not something Chris Kresser is advocating, as he pointed out in the first lines of this blog post. Those people who find compassion annoying and irritating can count themselves at the beginning of their journey…those who simply haven’t been exposed to it but are open to new information are steps ahead.
There is more information out there now but it makes the tendency to eat donuts no less strong, so all we can all do is learn what we can, attempt to change to a whole food diet as best as we are progressively able, and to respect those whose choices are based on ethical considerations beyond our own, micronutrients be damned.
Karin says
Okay,
I can see that none of my challenging questions are going to be answered by the “vegans” here, so for now, I just want to say one thing that’s been on my mind since the start of this exhausting thread:
I’m a former animal-rights oriented vegan, and I really strived to be as authentic as possible at the time. That meant ending my support for things that I knew required the use of animal parts…..like televisions, computers, etc. If I had to use a computer for college, I went to the school library, so that my choice had no economic impact.
So I find it really hard to take seriously the folks on here CLAIMING to be vegans, who don’t support the rights of people to use animal products to support the VITALITY OF THEIR BODIES, and yet have no problem buying industrially produced electronic equipment. Let’s make this clear: If you are one of those people and you are using an industrially manufactured computer right now (which contains the innards of animals) you are absolutely NOT a vegan……you are AT BEST an ASPIRING vegan, and at WORST a CLOWN. (Or that’s being mean to clowns…..how about a rank hypocrite?)
On a less confrontational note, can we ALL agree that some people do NOT thrive on “vegan” diets? For example, I met a mother last week whose daughter has severe allergies to both nuts and legumes. Can we at least agree that it’s a VERY GOOD THING that animal agriculture exists so that this girl can be nourished properly?
P.S. Someone asked another commenter why he has commented so often….Maybe because he has a lot to say? This isn’t one of those raw vegan sites, where people are banned and bullied and told to go away because they have the chutzpah to complain that their teeth are falling apart!
einstein says
wow, my pc contains innards of animals? first time i hear it. never to late to learn. time to google. thanks 🙂
OpenMind says
Hi Karin, I have noticed you are very adamant in defending your position and I find yours a fascinating story – but there are many gaps and believe me, I don’t expect you to share your life on a random blog. You do repeat many times, that you were a deeply involved “vegan” so seems like you might be making assumptions that all people are the same as you were, although you still don’t eat meat. But because those around you fell short of your expectations and definitions, you gave it up because you saw what other people were doing. “And I found it very interesting that the same people who were criticizing meat eaters…”
Now you seem to be working just as hard to defend consumption of animal products. Instead, I would have imagined you, of all people, would understand that if someone wanted to do something – like not eat animals or drink their secretions that you would respect their position – that at least this person is doing something. This why I have found your story interesting.
Although cliched it reminds of the starfish story, maybe a bit of wisdom does come with age: (I will repeat it here just in case anyone has not heard it)
A young man is walking along the ocean and
sees a beach on which thousands and thousands
of starfish have washed ashore. Further along
he sees an old man, walking slowly and
stooping often, picking up one starfish after
another and tossing each one gently into the
ocean.
“Why are you throwing starfish into the
ocean?,” he asks.
“Because the sun is up and the tide is going out
and if I don’t throw them further in they will
die.”
“But, old man, don’t you realize there are miles
and miles of beach and starfish all along it!
You can’t possibly save them all, you can’t even
save one-tenth of them. In fact, even if you
work all day, your efforts won’t make any
difference at all.”
The old man listened calmly and then bent
down to pick up another starfish and threw it
into the sea. “It made a difference to that one.”
FrankG says
“…or drink their secretions…”
Careful not to let your prejudices show… must keep up that pretense of being “OpenMinded”.
Is your implication that at least veg*ns are “doing something”..?
I support my local small-scale farmers, my local economy, I buy local and in season. I personally know, trust and can visit the farm where my grass-fed beef and pastured pork are raised. I personally know and trust the butcher who works directly for that farm. Same for my eggs, milk, vegetables etc… I am convinced that I am supporting a sustainable model of agriculture in the face of almost overwhelming forces which strive to dominate us (in the name of profit) with an incredibly wasteful and unsustainable model… a model that will likely lead to food riots and mass starvation. Surely this “doing something”..?
OpenMind says
1. drinking milk whether human babies breast feeding or milk from an animal – are secretions = fact. (an externally secreted fluid designed specifically to nourish the young).
2. I was just saying that Karin seems to present an all or nothing premise. So yes those that choose to not eat animals products are doing something as it relates to her all or nothing stance (example.Karin
FEBRUARY 24, 2014 AT 8:35 AM. Not that those that chose to eat animals aren’t making difference.
3. I have not questioned yours or anyones decision to buy local, we all know that’s a better choice – I go to the farmers market for my veggies very week.
I know you would like to put me on a side animal vs. plant but I am high on empathy (highly empathetic person – HEPs). For example – I have the ability to step into the shoes of another person, aiming to understand their feelings and perspectives. So I am a very open minded person and follow the research on both sides of this topic so I can make the best decision for myself and family – not rely on a book writer to tell me.
FrankG says
So you keep saying but for an HEP you seem surprisingly willing to be patronising and insult others’ intelligence… as an example your assumption that I have done no research; based on nothing more than my unwillingness to share with you, my own quest for knowledge… it is none of your business so far as I am concerned.
Once again, your choice of words leaves me questioning your sincerity and credibility.
OpenMind says
I am sorry if you feel I am patronising and insulting others intelligense – I certainly don’t mean to do this. I was only asking you about your research because you first challenged mine. See ya – no open discussion here.
FrankG says
“But it does tell me why you never answered my question as to where you do your research -you apparently don’t.”
Quite an insulting reach from my assertion that I am well read on these topics.
But I agree that with you, there is “…no open discussion here”
Karin says
Hi Open Mind,
I was about to write a response to your other post, and I noticed this statement: “I go to the farmer’s market for my veggies every week.”
It will help me to better explain to you my position if I know where you are. You don’t have to be specific if you’d prefer not to be, but could you share me the nearest city?
I haven’t been able to get veggies at my Farmer’s Market since the fall!
Thanks!
Also:
You claimed that I have an “all or nothing” stance, which is profoundly ironic. Please reread what I wrote.
I was speaking about people using the term “vegan” to describe themselves. Sorry, but the fact is that veganism IS an all or nothing philosophy. It calls for an end to ALL animal use and consumption. And the people that use it to describe themselves use it to differentiate themselves from those who are merely trying to “do something.”
There are some self-described “vegans” who describe animal consumption as “murder.” Some of them really believe that feeding milk or beef to a 4 year old is committing a moral atrocity tantamount to murder. And yet, almost every single one of them buys things with animal parts in it.
What if gelatin from concentration camp victims were used to make that LCD screen instead?
If you don’t obstain from such products, then you are not a vegan. You may be a vegetarian who chooses to obstain from eating eggs and milk, but you are simply not a vegan. Not nearly. And nobody of consequence should take you seriously if you pretend to be one.
Karin says
abstain 🙂
OpenMind says
Hi Karin, obviously I live in a warm climate, I don’t think the place matters here.
This is confusing without a proper forum to discuss but here goes one more time – you do state as “fact” it is all or nothing: “Sorry, but the fact is that veganism IS an all or nothing philosophy.”
So the irony is that “their” definition or philosophy doesn’t match your definition or philosophy. You use a specific definition and assume all people use your definition. Fact: there are different definitions : “a vegetarian who omits all animal products from the diet” . Or this one – “Vegan. Does not eat dairy products, eggs, or any other animal product.” So it seems that your ideal definition is: “A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.”
So it is not ironic but purely matter of semantics: “You may be a vegetarian who chooses to abstain from eating eggs and milk, but you are simply not a vegan. Not nearly”.
So maybe “they” should call “themselves” “simply” animal-eaters that don’t eat animals? Or maybe you could coin a new term for “them”? Karigans = Karin’s Vegans?
“And nobody of consequence should take you seriously if you pretend to be one.” Who are the people of consequence?
I am sorry you have had such an horrific experience with “vegans” but this site is too derisive for me to spend anymore of my time on. I am going to go spend time with my loved one who is one of “them” the “pretender”, the animal eater- who doesn’t eat animal products, a real live vegan, a person of “consequence” , “a person who is trying to do something” and not a “they”.
Karin says
“This site is too derisive for me.”
That is coming from someone whose initial post included a link to one of the smarmiest people on all of youtube. I decided to watch a few minutes of one video created by “Plantpositive”, the “researcher” recommended to us by Open Mind. The video is supposed to be about a critique of Chris Masterjohn’s take on cholesterol. Plantpositive quickly makes a joke about Kresser being “dumb” and then proceeds to make another joke about both Kresser and Dr. Masterjohn being “retarded.” I guess I can’t blame him for being so uncomfortable with himself, considering PP’s limitations. But that level of scholarship is for minds far more “open” than mine.
😉
Suzie says
Karin, you didn’t answer OpenMind’s post for the most part? Just the derisive statement with another put down of sorts. I would be interested in hearing your reaction to the main subject of the post since you do seem to carry quite a bit of emotion around people who say they are vegan. Don’t get me wrong – we all do carry emotion and passion – its more than research that forms our beliefs around food choice.
FrankG says
Hard to reason with blind faith and emotion-based choices.
Suzie says
FrankG if you are emotionless, it doesn’t come across this way in many of your posts. Nutritional science is far from perfect. It appears as those if one stacked up all the research “for” eating the modern Paleo vs “against” less animal intake and the impacts to health there is an overwhelming win for against stack. So food choice is complicated and science is not perfect – for food all the answers don’t exist.
FrankG says
@Suzie.. a person can be passionate and enthusiastic without allowing it to cloud judgement.
I agree that the choices are complicated and that no-one has all the answers. This is precisely why I speak out when I hear people writing as if they DO have all the answers.
Richard says
Vegan applies to what a person does not consume in their diet, it does not mean that they eat whole plant-based foods to a great degree nor does it mean they do not wear a fur coat.
Vegans decide not to include animal products in their diet for various reasons. You wish to apply a great caring for animals to all vegans but it is not clear to me even what percentage of vegans fall in that category.
Curious says
New to this blog thread: It appears as though many people are off on tangents not related to Chris’s Intro above. Chris himself is not trying to “convert” vegans to meat eaters just wants them to think twice.
He was just offering as his recommendations, take them or leave them as fact based on your on research (Vit/hormone D synthesized from sun hitting our skin as the best source not mentioned here). It appears, although unsaid, that his recommended diet is also not “optimal” since he also recommends supplements.
“I hope this article can serve as a resource for anyone on a plant-based diet, whether they choose to start eating meat (or animal products, in the case of vegans) again or not.”
I must say that writing a book about diet is the way to go$$$! I think I will join the ranks. But off to my day job.
VegForever says
This article is ridiculous. Brewers yeast? LMAO. It’s NUTRITIONAL yeast, not brewers yeast. They’re completely different. I was raised on it and have never eaten meat in my life. I won the presidents Physical Fitness Award in 2 different high schools.
I don’t suffer from memory loss, in fact my memory stuns everyone. I can remember when I was a baby.
My 3rd generation herbivore kids are not deficient either. They are healthy and brilliant – all honors geniuses and have broken 75 year pull-up records at school.
This article is nonsense. He doesn’t even know the difference between brewers yeast and nutritional yeast.
FrankG says
I guess “kids” is precisely the right word if they are indeed “herbivores”… can they digest grass?
Seriously, I do wish you and yours well but please don’t think that repeating the same tired mantra will persuade me to change my life choices and convictions.. you are wasting your time here.
I read this article as being about pausing for thought before blindly accepting that veganity is the healthier choice… for me it is not… your mileage may vary.
einstein says
the only thing i am smiling at here is your comment. i can spot a fake prophet when i see one and you are definitely it. do your kids do weighted pullups at school with 25% of their bodyweight in a backpack? because I do, and I am 47 btw. and no vegan either 🙂 i have yet to see a vegan to beat me at that. go tell my sixpack how healthy you are.
Phil Nicols says
People used to think smoking was good for them too. Now, for the first time in the history of this planet, we have internet where we can share ideas globally and so far, fairly freely.
Blessed are those minds that had this figured out well before internet like Einstein, Da Vinci and myriad of others.
if vegan was bad for you, then all the vegans would be sick or dead by now but the truth is, we’re not.
today we have top gold medal winning athletes, bodybuilders. .the strongest man on earth today… all vegans.
why do people defend meat eating? because its the way they were brought up and some feel that to change, would make themselves look like everything they have believed over the years was … not “wrong” but they just don’t believe another way is possible.
the other way saves the environment and saves animals. If its all “the way of life etc” .. would YOU change places with a slaughterhouse cow?
Would you even take your kids to see the slaughter house? of course not. would you raise your dog from a puppy, then one day chop its head off, gut it cook it and feed it to your kids? of course not – not most of us anyway.
its ok to change for the better. people finally start to realise that smoking is not good for them and they gave it up.
its a change for the betterment of you, earth, mankind and certainly the animals.
the answers are not in a laboratory… the answers are in your heart.
P/
FrankG says
Phil, why don’t you climb down off your sanctimonious high-horse and actually read the thoughtful and well-reasoned comments here before going into auto-pilot and posting the usual vegan spiel… it really doesn’t improve with the telling.
As for your comparison of smoking to meat eating it really doesn’t work…
My heart is just fine: in terms of physical health, my life choices and my convictions regarding what I think is best for the planet and our future survival.
Richard says
The fact that particular high-performance people are vegan does not prove that the reason is they do not consume animal products. It could be their specific vegan diet includes large amounts of the right vegetables and fruits. Our bodies get nutrition from what gets into our bodies, not from what is left out.
However, there are ample studies that indicate large amounts of animal products make people sick and even studies that show large amounts of dairy products do not produce strong bones.
Personally, I get about 85% of my calories from whole plant-based foods, less than 6% from animal products, and most of my fat from nuts, seeds, avocado and wild salmon.
Michael Cohen says
An observational study from Austria
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0088278&representation=PDF
Aurelie says
This article is so desperate to convince people to go paleo that it ends up being self-contradictory.
First, the vegan diet is depicted as deficient but then the author points out a study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8842068 ) that concludes that “there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups.” So, were do you see any deficiency?
What about being a little less self-centered, maybe you would realize that eating meat do not only involve yourself but the animal that was killed too.
If this study is right and veganism + omnivorism offer the same life expectancy, what about doing something ethical and stop needlessly killing animals?
FrankG says
Surely you’re a conscious of the fact that you are using the term “vegan” and “vegetarian” interchangeably… as if they mean the exact same thing?
Are you being purposefully disingenuous, or just underlining your ignorance?
I’m getting really tried of the emotional rhetoric…maybe you should read some of the earlier comments before just spouting off the same tired responses.
Daren says
This videos is interesting, about a former vegetarian. I recommend it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNON5iNf07o
FrankG says
Thanks for a moment of sanity in amongst all the veg*an noise 🙂
It really seems that the lunatics are taking over the asylum!
Hard to believe that so many of those commenting even read here on a regular basis…
There must be some kind of veg*an jungle telegraph which reaches out to try and overwhelm any opposition: with the same, usual, tired, boring, propaganda and emotion-fueled rhetoric… such a monumental waste of everyone’s time
Don’t think for yourself, don’t bother reading, don’t bother responding, just recite your prayers boys and girls and maybe you will be get into your fantasy heaven… good grief… what a waste of life.
Ryan Garner says
I find this article to be fueled by a lot of anti-vegetarian/vegan propaganda and misinformation. Right now as we speak, the top record holding bodybuilders are vegan. There are people in their 70’s and 80’s that are vegan and are still running and working out in a gym like a 30 year old would. Most people on a regular meat based diet are well into their years of limited mobility and an increase in the aging process. To meet some of your opinions half way, I also once knew someone that was vegan and heavily malnourished. Strangely enough this person had a serious addiction vegan baked goods, breads and heavy carbs and was very overweight.
Our digestive system was never evolved to eat meat. We cannot consume meat unless it is cooked which removes bacteria that could be potentially fatal if consumed. With a little research, you can see that our digestive tracts are coiled like that of a herbivores’. If you were to observe the digestive tract of a carnivore you would notice that the digestive track is very short and uncoiled, seeing as how most carnivores walk on all fours and need a short distance in the digestive tract path to pass what has been consumed. However the fact that we can consume certain sea dwelling creatures slightly proves the fact that we, by nature can be pescaterians to a degree.
Over the years, the changes in the food industry have rewired the human palette and have made the vegan/vegetarian appetite scarce and unappealing, but only of that which was rendered via propaganda from the processed food and meat lobbies. We have been wired to eat this way folks. We are a product of that which has been taught and observed.
In every form of plant life contains all of the necessary vitamins, proteins and nutrients needed to sustain life. It is only a matter of doing proper research. However most people are lazy in this day and age of convenience, which serves as an ultimate plunge into poor choices in observing good health. In depth studies have show that consumption of animal flesh and proteins cause the bodies metabolism to naturally slow down and store fat in mass quantities, while plant based proteins accelerate the muscle growth, response and absorption and do not horde unnecessary fatty carbohydrates. Plant based proteins such as hemp provide an amazing array of health benefits as well as a sustainable protein that does not require the digestive tract to work overtime in trying to burn, break down and dispel the fatty proteins of animal byproducts.
All forms of needed nutrition can be found within plant life. It has been proven time and time again. Do some research. The answers are out there. Talk to a healthy vegan or vegetarian and see how they manage their health. Do not waste your time with mindless drivel that has been debunked but still in circulation because dairy, processed foods and meat lobbies want to maintain their profit margins. Its all about money folks, especially in the USA. The big pharma and corporate food industry lobbies are not interested in a healthy, conscious and alert society. They are interested in subpar health that needs a certain amount of medication to keep that Pharma industry booming. Here’s a kicker for that previous line. Just last year, a lobby of Kaiser Permanente doctors and surgeons recommended that morbidly obese, diabetic and cancer patients go on a vegan diet to improve their condition and their health. Out of all the so-called wonder drugs out there used to treat various diseases and conditions, these top medical doctors advised a vegan diet to combat their symptoms. I rest my case!
Michael Cohen says
Ryan, there is so much nonsense in your post I hardly know where to begin. Lets start with this, “With a little research, you can see that our digestive tracts are coiled like that of a herbivores’.” All digestive tracts are coiled.The human digestive tract is nothing like an herbivores, either in form or function. Cows and other ruminants have multiple stomachs. Do you have four stomachs? The primary digestive mechanism of herbivores is multi-stage fermentation. Cud is chewed and re-digested. Herbivores must spend most of their time eating their low nutrient dense cellulose based food stuffs. Some herbivores eat their own feces. Does this sound like anything humans do? We most certainly have evolved to eat meat. It is the nutrient dense red meat of herbivores that gave us the evolutionary energy to become human. No Anthropologist disputes this. Koala bears have evolved to eat Eucalyptus leaves. Without them they die. Pandas have evolved to eat bamboo, without it they die.Look around you. If humans have not evolved to be eating meat why do the vast majority of people in all cultures, eat meat? If we have not evolved to eat meat, why are there no reproducing vegan cultures? Why has one never been described? Have we humans been doing it all wrong for the last 2.5 million years? I dont think so.
As far as citing the recommendations of Doctors as proof of the validity of ones position, remember that doctors are not infallible. Remember it was doctors that prescribed paxil,thalidomide, and the dozens of other drugs that have over time killed literally millions of people. It is doctors that performed frontal lobotomies. In the last century it was doctors that ostracized one of their own, Dr Semmelweis, for his medical heresies. Remember what his “Heresy” was? It was that doctors wash their hands between patients to minimize the spread of infections.
drew says
A few general points, likely to be lost in the jungle of status quo myths being promulgated here.
1) Nothing you eat will make you an omnivore. That is a physiology descriptor. When you choose to eat non-vegan, you are a carnist. This is a CHOICE. This is also a choice virtually all cultures now force on innocent children. Every category of measurement with humans shows our **evolution** to be that of herbivores. Easily proven if you care to read. Evolutionary time is measured so much longer than the time of “hunter-gatherer” that this minor stretch is only relevant when you consider our level of dis-ease. Stuff enough crap you were not designed to process into your belly and you will get sick.
2) There is NEVER any measurement of initial states of health of anyone in these studies. When people describe to me about a vegan hero sports star or bodybuilder, i always ask how long they were prior to going vegan, and what they did prior. This is crucial for long-term health. If you base your health decisions on the practices of high-end “fit” athletes, you will be greatly disappointed as you age. Being fit and being healthy are NOT synonymous.
3) Rarely if ever is the issue of gut bacteria mentioned in these articles. This is one of **the** most important areas to discuss. The gut bacteria of a proper vegan with a varied diet is of a predominantly differing genus than carnists. This is also now being proven that this genus is better as a single dose of this bacteria can resolve lifelong digestive issues in those unfortunate souls who are suffers from non-vegan diets and IBS etc. Even probiotic manufactures are not yet fully hip to this. A vegan taking regular probiotics are actually tossing carnist gut bacteria into their systems, messing them up.
4) The very simple matter of fact that we have a growing population of very healthy souls, all vegan, who are flourishing for many years proves we do not need meat or dairy. I am 4.5 years in, never get sick, am fitter than most half my age, and far healthier than most around me. If we were not meant to do this, we would be dying in short-order.
5) Trying to isolate specific vitamins and supplements etc and their effects within a diet is almost ludicrous. Most openly genuine medical folk will patiently explain they don’t really understand what happens when food is digested, it is all educated guesses, snapshot of knowledge at one point in time, very very subject to change. Hell, take a leaf of spinach and chew it, swallow it and you have just ingested hundreds, if not thousands of natural chemicals. Case-in-point, medical science is starting to admit the obvious, that the so-called “junk DNA” miiiiight actually be doing something, and heck there might even be a secondary set of DNA involved. But don’t tell that to Monsanto et al as they screw up our future biosphere with their greed and GMO.
6) One area rarely discussed is the linking of vegetarian and vegan diets. The ONLY connection they have is that a vegetarian diet is a stepping stone to a proper vegan diet and is horribly unhealthy as, in it’s current definition allowing dairy, it means that dairy has unfettered space to wreck havoc within our digestive tract. Given that dairy milk evolved as a fast-track for young calves to grow into large cows quickly and efficiently, using casein and a whole host of non-human bio-markers, can it be of any surprise how many unhealthy vegetarians there are? Casein is one of the world’s most efficient promoters of cancer, look it up. And oh, don’t forget the blood, pus and antibiotics in dairy milk.
7) Finally, for now, any reference to how we ate, how we managed in caves etc, is almost entirely conjecture, much like most of how our bodies operate. Hell, science doesn’t even know how memory works. A thought repeated a thousand times does not make it fact. The status quo is a marvellous marketing beast, but being vegan, i won’t eat it.
bored yet?
FrankG says
ashley says
Wow, what a great place to throw in Mitchell and Webb. There is so much bullshit in these comments, I really needed a laugh. Thanks for a great contribution!
FrankG says
…it’s an ethical thing… I don’t think humans should be treated like this
🙂
Jacqueline Smith says
Unless you have scientific evidence to share backing your claims, I’ll thank you now for your impassioned opinion piece.
Science is on the side of those who choose a whole foods plant based diet.
Erica Martell says
Thank you Garth Davis! You are a breath of fresh (educated) air! 🙂
garth davis MD says
I am a physician who specializes in weight loss and nutrition. I have been studying nutrition for years. Wrote a book in 2007, The Experts Guide to Weight Loss Surgery, during which I recommended a Zone diet. Problem is that people didn’t do well on the Zone, nor Atkins. I, myself had high cholesterol and high blood pressure. SO I decided to dedicate myself to really studying nutritional science. The results were amazing to me and absolutely completely different to the assertions you make. I began adding a vegetarian diet as a treatment option and the response surprised me. The health of my patients improved beyond what I would have believed. I am now writing a book for Harper and have done extensive research of the literature. I have literally 1000 articles of real science disputing these myths that are so tiredly repeated. Adventist Health Study 1 and 2 among the best. Vegans lived longer and had less heart disease, cancer and diabetes. EPIC oxford study showed vegans compared equally to “healthy” meat eaters who only are meat occasionally. Obviously did much better than the typical English omnivore. The problem with that study is that the vegans only got 25 gm fiber compared to Adventist 45 gm so obviously we’re not eating as much fruits and veggies. More processed food. Also did not take any B12 and did not consume organic food so B12 was lacking, and yet we’re still extremely healthy. German study again showed vegans lived longer and healthier than omnivores. Bone health is actually superior in vegetarians and usually vegans EXCEPT in oxford study but again those were not healthy vegans. They were ethical vegans so didn’t eat right. Vegetarians tend to have slightly lower iron stores but never show increased anemia. Low iron stores may be key to long term health as heme iron causes oxidative stress and is associated with cancer, heart disease, and diabetes. I can go on forever. This internet Pseudo expert BS would be funny if it were not so dangerous to our health. 11 yrs treating obesity and I have never treated a vegan. Never. Lots of meat eaters. All meat eaters. In fact, the thousands of diet logs I have put together for my research show animals products are present at every meal, even when the patients are trying to eat healthy. They also suffer from osteoporosis, Vit D deficiency, B12 deficiency, and anemia.
I will just add this quote from Eric Rimm. He is one of the head nutrition researchers at Harvard school of Public Health. He is not vegetarian. He has been researching the Men’s Health Profession study and the Nurses Professional study which are the largest prospective cohorts in America. They have published hundreds of studies on the effects of diet and health and introduced a novel statistical analysis called comparative risks analysis. Their studies have been damning to meat and processed meat while very affirming of fruits, veggies, legumes, and grains. Harvard, due to these studies, emphasizes a plant and grain heavy diet but not vegetarian. Given the findings he was asked why they didn’t just recommend vegetarian. He said,
“Well, we could tell people to become vegetarians,” he added. “If we were truly basing this only on science, we would, but it is a bit extreme.”
– Eric Rimm, a nutritional epidemiologist at the Harvard School of Public Health
So if they were actually basing it on science they would tell people to be vegetarian. This from one of the most recognized and accomplished nutritional researchers in the world.
Jacqueline Smith says
yeah, that. ^^^^ science.
Sharon says
Thank you, we need more people like you to spread the truth.
Kim S. says
Didn’t you get enough of a beat down here?
http://freetheanimal.com/2012/07/dr-garth-davis-surgeon-i-warned-you.html
and here?
http://freetheanimal.com/2012/07/doctor-fail-garth-davis-bariatric-surgeon-and-china-study-balderdash.html#comment-166172
Still arguing the same flawed and shoddy science, I see.
FrankG says
Not to mention a glowing recommendation from the PCRM… AKA the Vegan Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine — talk about a misleading name eh… who’d have ever guessed they had an hidden agenda?!? LOL
http://pcrm.org/good-medicine/2011/autumn2011/healthy-foods-and-healthy-bodies-garth-davis-md
Of course, a recommendation from them would be like being put up for a Nobel Peace Prize by the Nazi Party 😛
And what’s with the Weight Loss SURGERY??? Seems counter-intuitive (if not downright hypocritical) to me that someone who purports to be an expert on a nutritional solution, relies on expensive surgery to make his bread and butter… just saying 😛
Raj says
Reductio ad Hitlerum. Grow up Franky boy.
e! says
See: Godwin’s Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Sam says
Here is a vegetarian scientist that is in complete disagreement because he has made the some of the studies that contradict you. Almost all studies done on weight lost contradict your assertions. No a vegetarian diet is not best for weight lost, nor health.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eREuZEdMAVo
http://authoritynutrition.com/5-studies-on-the-paleo-diet/
einstein says
man if you are really an MD, which I do not believe for a moment, God save your patients. despite B12 deficiency they enjoyed excellent health? really? and all those meat eaters had B12 deficiency? wow. never saw an overweight vegan? and you don’t know why? because they are malnourished and constantly hungry, thats why. having said that, i must admit I really love vegans! the more vegans out there, the more meat for me. y’all go grazing now and let me finish my steak.
Richard says
I am convinced that I do best when over 85% of my calories come from whole plant-based products and less than 5% from animal products. I avoid dairy and oil but get fat from wild salmon, nuts, seeds and avocado.
That said I do not believe that meat makes people obese. The standard Western Diet does make people overweight and sick with heart disease, diabetes and others but I think it is a combination of excessive animal products, sugar, processed grains and HFCS while lacking a great amount of the nutrients in whole plant-based foods.
There are two sides of the coin, what you eat and what you do not eat.
Jan says
I was never more unhealthy than when I was clinging to the ideal of veganism for 12 years, getting my protein from soy products and consuming grains, eschewing fats of any kind, all in the name of optimal health pounding on a stack of nutritional bibles all the way. Once I added animal fats, meats & coconut oil into my diet and eliminate grains, the migraines, back aches, joint pains subsided, the psoriasis vanished, the acne disappeared, the hair stopped falling out, the anxiety and depression became manageable, my upper respiratory allergies that plagued me year-round all faded away. But during 11 1/2 of those years, there was no way you could have convinced me that my choice was an unhealthy one because I had an arsenal of “proof” I was making a good choice. I do not engage people in conversation about their food choices for exactly that reason. I simply set a glowing, healthy example of a 50+ year old woman who is clearly healthier than her thirtysomething former self.
Sharon says
There are vitamins A, D, E and K that are fat soluble and require fats to be carried within the body. This fact is widely known by many people. It wasn’t the right thing to avoid fats when you were vegan, that was why you might have missed out on absorbing those vitamins even though you were consuming them. And coconut oil reduced inflammation.
Kim S. says
Maybe someone should tell that to Drs. Ornish and McDougall. Because they both promote veg*n diets that are low or no fat.
Judy says
That’s interesting. I’ve had the opposite yet parallel experience. When I dropped animal products from my diet twelve years ago, my migraines lessened, my cholesterol and weight went down, I stopped getting chest and joint pain, and I had more energy. I feel better in my 50s than I did in my 30s. I consume a variety of beans, grains (no GMO wheat), nuts and seeds (for the healthy fats) and many vegetables and fruit. It’s possible that it wasn’t being vegan that was the problem for you, but the type of vegan diet.
Monte says
I know that both vegetarian and the Paleo diets are both healthier than the standard American diet because they both stress eating more real whole and usually organic fruits and veggies, in fact a vegetarian who eats eggs and doesn’t eat wheat/grains or legumes or dairy IS eating a paleo diet. The common ground here is the fruit and veggies. Extremely healthy to either diet follower. It’s the other things that the person is eating that is the main health ruiner. The refined carbohydrates. The flour and sugar and the enemies here. That and the hydrogenated vegetable oils. And vegan/vegetarians eating soy that hasn’t been fermented to get rid of its phytoestrogens/ antinutrient properties, are doing themselves not just a disservice but a health detriment. Plus most soy grown in the US anyway is GMO. The thing to think about is this: yes you can get the 9 essential amino acids (protein broken down) in plant sources but can you also get all the essential B vitamins as well from the same sources? Can you get CLA, ALA, COq10, choline and other nutrients from all the same plant sources? Meat is a one stop major protein source with ALL the essential amino acids but also allll these other sources of vitamins and antioxidants and minerals. Especially vitamin B12. Yes even meat eaters can be deficient in b12 and need to supplement as many people have leaky guts and their intrinsic factor in their gut has gone. Fruit and veggies provide many of the daily vitamins and minerals but it’s harder (but not impossible) to get all the essential amino acids from them. We’ve been lied to about meat being unhealthy. It’s not ESPECIALLY and maybe only if it is grassfed organic free range biodynamically raised. Which is actually a very ethical way to raise an animal which should persuade some vegans/vegetarians to question wether a happy animal that lives a happy life and then gives up it’s life so that people can eat it and actually become healthier, is that animal not serving a higher purpose then? Human beings are the smartest and dumbest animals on the planet and an animal that helps a smarter animal live longer and healthier, that doesn’t seem wrong. Also, why aren’t vegans and vegetarians protesting lions and tigers for eating gazelles? Why is it wrong for humans but not animals? Sure we aren’t running on animalistic instinct but if we deep down CRAVE meat, is that not some sort of animalistic instinct to survive? To feed the body what it needs? The human body does indeed need protein (amino acids) and more to keep physically fit. Muscular. If there is a deficiency of amino acids in the daily diet, the body will break down muscle to get what it needs. This is why a majority of vegans have less muscle tone and are skinnier. Skinny doesn’t equate healthier automatically. This is muscle wasting and is not ideal for health. Being strong is indeed healthy. Having muscles and muscle tone is healthy. And muscles need protein and a lot of it. Because the body uses amino acids for other things than just building muscle. The sulphuric amino acids, like methionine for instance help the body detox. Basically I think as long as a vegan is very smart and diligent in getting the essential amino acids and b vitamins and other vitamin and minerals, than, that diet is on par with a paleo diet. But a paleo meat eating diet isn’t worse. Grassfed organic meat is very healthy and ethically raised. And it’s the easiest source of all the essential amino acids and vitamins, etc in one place. A lot of vegans and even the mainstream society have placed little emphasis on how very important protein is and how very toxic sugar and flour (gluten) is. Both a paleo and vegan diet have more in common than not. Both are concerned in getting enough protein just from different sources. Both eat more fruit and veggies (or SHOULD BE) than the average person. Both realize that these whole foods are helping them become healthier. Both avoid dairy. It all boils down to a vegan/vegetarian eating too much gluten or quickly digested processed carbohydrates just like the average person eats because if you lower the protein intake, a person will usually get their calories from somewhere else and if those foods aren’t off limits then they get consumed more. Adequate protein will NOT induce an insulin response like high GI carbs will, therefore they being made of what the body needs, are not unhealthy. If you are a vegan or vegetarian, consider eating more non GMO fermented soy but keep in mind soy has antinutrients in it so you may need even MORE of the nutrients that it will block absorption of. And if just a vegetarian, eat more eggs, organic pastured free range eggs. And organic raw milk if you can get your hands on it although, consider not having it for a month, see how you feel, then introduce it and see how you feel. Same with eggs. A paleo/vegetarian diet hybrid would NOT be an unhealthy diet at all. Especially if adequate eggs were eaten daily, and plant sourced amino acids from a varying source. Eating Paleo and vegan/vegetarian is a harder diet for either camp but both are healthy. One just needs to work even harder than the other one and THAT is the point Chris is trying to make in this post.
Sharon says
Kendra says
As a vegan I do eat ridiculous amounts of beta carotene, calcium and iron because that is what a plant based diet is all about. I eat sweet potatoes, kale, cilantro, black beans, avocados, nuts and much more everyday. That is a real vegan diet, not this idea of switching meat for soy and continuing a conventional American diet. I think that is what your article is based on – the fact that Americans do not know how to get the nutrition they need.
Christopher Lind says
Any diet where you have to supplement is probably not a good idea. It just is kinda intuitive to me anyway.
Kendra says
I have been mostly vegan for over a year now. My hair is thicker, my body feels and looks amazing and my energy levels are off the charts. I must admit I’m educated about health and I eat veggies and no processed sugars. Your assessment of calcium is wrong, vegetarian populations have much lower rates of osteoporosis. I understand that most people don’t know enough to be healthy eating vegan but it’s possible. The toxins you consume in conventional meat are horrible. You forgot to mention all the sickness and malnutrition in our conventional diet of meat and sugar. Educated vegans do live longer and are healthier.
FrankG says
“Mostly vegan”?? Is that like being “just a bit pregnant”..? Presumably you mean “vegetarian”.. or maybe even omnivorous?
All these folks who rationalise the nutrient deficiencies by explaining how others “did not do it right” or that “they need to be educated”.. really does not do any favours for advocating this lifestyle choice… why is eating properly such a complicated task?
It also makes me doubly-concerned for those who force such a lifestyle choice on innocent children.. especially when I see an advocate of veganity above asking “What specific needs do children have? Care to clarify?” Seriously?!?
Richard says
Chris and others have their opinion about a vegan diet but from all the studies I read and books written by doctors that have reversed heart disease and diabetes, a whole plant-based diet with some supplements like B12, D3 or sunshine, zinc and K2 is the way to go for the best chance of good health.
FrankG says
Yet I reversed my Diabetes with a “plant-based diet” where I let my “food” eat the the plants for me, and no supplements needed 😛 Should I ignore my own experience in favour of some questionable studies and books?
Anofuctus says
I was a vegetarian from 3 years for health reasons. I was diagnosed with gallstones and kidney stones at the age of 17!!
I had no real medical coverage and the state wouldn’t provide coverage for the operation. The pompous ass doctor said, “The operation will cost $3,500.00”. I skulked out of the office. I put my mind to work to come up with a solution to my health problem. With the help of Transcendental Meditation, my mind led me to a health food store in a neighboring town.
I found the books to aid me in my dilemma. So I started out with multiple fasts and changed my diet. After the fasts, I became a vegetarian. I went back to the doctor for an examination of the stones and they were completely gone. The doctor was very surprised and I told him how I did it. However, a bit of unusual strife came my way and I left town for military service. I do miss being a vegetarian and I’ll go back to if I make it to 70 years old.
einstein says
so you were a vegetarian, which made you sick, then you meditated, fasted, became a vegetarian and got better. what a load of BS. hey, let’s keep some level to this thread pls. some comments are really sub-par.
Page says
A Raw Vegan Lifestyle is a way to THRIVE. Look at individuals like Markus Rothkranz or Lou Corona. They look and feel incredible as I know Lou personally. There hair, skin, nails and bodies are thriving and they have sharp minds! Both living their passions in this life. I say each to their own however know that it is possible. Clean the body out first which both of these individuals did..injoy a simple life not so based around food. .its what we let go of that gives us our vital life power back!
JLRC says
The thing that is missing here is protein.
1. Most people are woefully low in daily protein intake, even omnivores.
2. Too much protein is not bad for you. The amount of protein a person has to eat to stress the kidneys is so astronomically high that you wouldn’t hit half that by accidentally eating all the meat you could. There’s no threat here. People that overeat protein are healthier than people who overeat any other macronutrient (at the same overall calorie level.
3. The proteins in meats are much more bioavailable than are those found in other foods. You’re lucky to find any non-meat food that approaches being a complete protein. A lean steak is going to have an unbelievable amount of protein while filling you up, being fairly low in calories, and making you feel like you’ve had a real treat. Chicken is even more protein-dense, lower in calories, and arguably more satiating – though I don’t know a ton of people who find it as delicious as a good steak. It’s very cheap, too!
Adam says
Find me a reputable scientific source that says people are woefully deficient in protein. That is completely false.
Also false is the idea that most plant proteins are not complete. If you do the math, this myth is washed away.
http://www.debunkingnutrition.com/2013/09/are-plant-proteins-complete-proteins.html
FrankG says
So is that anonymous blogger your example of a “reputable scientific source”???
Adam says
It’s simple math based on data contained in an extensive review done by the World Health Organization, so yes. You’re welcome to double check the math…
Essere says
The problem with associations or organizations is that they aren’t biochemists. World health organization says that elemental mercury is safe yet biochemistry research has shown over and over that elemental mercury causes gene mutations. Yet all this research is disregarded.
Animal products contain “growth” proteins which aren’t found in plants. The human body is able to produce these growth proteins after physical activity.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
OK, since you profess to depend on science, please tell us what these specific “growth proteins” in meat are. And perhaps you could also comment on the phytoestrogens in soy and other plant foods.
Essere says
IGF1 and mTOR. I will also add Vitamin B3 is virtually non-existent in the majority of plant foods. How does the human body self-produce all the above in abundance? Anyone want to match my intellect instead of regurgitating nonsense from the associations/organizations?
I haven`t read any of the soy science however I would guess that it effects the endogenous production of hormones the same way when taking testosterone. I don`t eat soy and other grains because they caused the leakage of some kind of liquid from my anus during sexual activity. Maybe the liquid is coming from the prostate. Don’t know. Definitely not healthy in my case.
AnnieLaurie Burke says
I’m not the least impressed with your “intellect”, nor with your fixation on “associations/organizations”, whatever unnamed entities those may be. What fascinates me (besides your amazing sense of humility) is your unique response to soy and grains….
Alice Wright says
Hello,
I’m curious about the 2 things you listed. I’m not vegan, but am mostly vegetarian. Can you elaborate as to the studies and benefits of the IGF1 and mTOR (not a facetious question, just curious)? Anyway, it appears B3 or Niacin does appear in a variety of plants as well – mushrooms, tomatoes, carrot leaves etc were listed…http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/sources-of-vitamin-B3/2011/02/14/id/385965/
Perhaps you are saying there’s not enough of a high quantity of it?
At any rate, I was, on another note curious – apart from the veganism – just considering vegetarianism – how do you rate of countries such as India, that have huge vegetarian populations. Not that I’m a big fan of the corruption plaguing that system but, from a purely health perspective, wouldn’t you expect to see systemic health issues in their vegetarians, both the wealthy and poor?
Thanks,
Alice
Erica Martell says
Haha. You can’t just drop Denise Minger’s name as though that is proof of anything. Denise is a pip, no doubt, and she’s just published a book – Death by Food Pyramid… She’s appears to be obsessively thorough, but who knows? You’d have to read both The China Study and her book and come to your own conclusions if that is possible. You can’t just drop “Denise Minger disproved The China Study on a couple of blog posts.” and consider that an argument that holds rice!
Dila says
Erica, you are welcome to read the China Study, Denise’s critique and post your opinion. But something tells me- you are not going to spend several months of your life on thorough research. Far easier to bash the work of others outright.
FrankG says
Haha. You can’t just drop T. Colin Campbell’s name as though that is proof of anything … You can’t just drop “T. Colin Campbell proved The China Study on a couple of blog posts.” and consider that an argument that holds rice!
e! says
Ugh, the China Study was terrible. It sounded great — let’s look at this amazing amount of data from China! — and ended up being a bait and switch with practically no actual information about the China data at all. I read it when I was still an aspiring vegetarian and I hated it even then.
Dan says
Lifelong vegetarian no fish or eggs. 42 years old. Full bloods show normal levels for every test. Ran a marathon in November. I’m not sure what the point of an article like this is?
Dila says
What blood tests did you get done? Do you take supplements?
The point of this article is that the majority of vegetarians run into problems long term. Just because you are doing great so far doesn’t mean the others will. We all have different tolerance to carbs and different requirements in micro-nutrients. People should make informed decisions.
FrankG says
Maybe you should learn to read Dan… 🙂
“The takeaway is that the most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that 68% of vegetarians and 83% of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 5% of omnivores.”
Lucky you to be in the small percentage who seem to be “doing it right”… shame on those who find it so hard to nourish themselves without animal products.. why the heck is it so hard to eat right???
Erica Martell says
This is to On the Fence. I like your response. This is how I am dealing with the choice. I completed certification as a health coach. We were encouraged to find a target market – who we were passionate about working with. Broccoli is good, kale is good, but when I started to see what was going on with it’s production I decided that what I was really passionate about was animals – that would be my target market…because I just couldn’t focus on helping people eat broccoli once I had seen where their meat came from. They would have to know as well. Beyond that I couldn’t force myself to watch any of the animal abuse videos on Facebook or YouTube. Honorably then I decided if I wouldn’t watch, I had to stop participating. It wasn’t an option to permit others to commit that kind of violence in my name while I closed my eyes because I wanted to engage in a variety of egocentric consumption. Still, I had to find a process to create change. I still got bacon with my omelet, because I still wanted bacon. And I ate some, with the picture of the Chinese pigs I had seen, standing alive with huge hooks through their jaws waiting to be driven in the back of a truck, bumping up and down with the hook holding them in place. I ate a few pieces with that picture in mind. It was undercooked and fatty. I threw the rest away, which is not common for me. And since then I have not had the desire to eat bacon, ribs, pork dumplings…some of my favorite things. I
have to peg each decision in place in the moment – I still want cashmere sweaters, leather bags and shoes, honey, cheese,yogurt and diary and I’m hardly at 100%, maybe 75% but I am approaching each decision each day as a conscious choice to be mindful, open and not defensive, and I find I more and more make the choice that supports no direct violence being done in my name. We each have to come to terms with these decisions, but I’d like to see people discussin their conscious mindful choices and instead I see alot of arrogance and derision. At the end of the day, meat is unsustainable and market forces are already moving us towards non-meat or faux meat alternatives because it’s largely just a texture and a very poor economic resolution to what it offers. I don’t want to hear from people who catch a fish, or have a chicken in their backyards. We can’t all catch fish and raise chickens. We’re talking about current large scale food options for millions, and the world.
Karin says
Hi Erica,
Thanks for your comment. I think if you look at the comments carefully, you’ll see that most of the vegans commenting here believe that vegan choices are ALWAYS better than choices which involve animals. There is no adjusting for context. Most of the comments also imply that if a person who tries a vegan diet doesn’t find that it works for him/her from a physical health perspective, that that MUST MEAN that the person did it wrong. There is no recognition that humans with different genetics may have different needs, and there’s CERTAINLY no coherent plan offered for how to create a sustainable vegan food system.
In terms of nutritional needs, I offered $100 in exchange for a three day nutritionally complete meal plan for children (my offer is still open, by the way) and I received two of the lamest responses imaginable!
I also think that the Paleo/Weston Price folks who follow Chris are much more interested in animal welfare than you realize. Dr. Chris Masterjohn, Denise Minger, Melissa McEwan, Dr. Matt Lalonde, and Kresser himself are just a few examples of some really smart thinkers who have devoted followings in the Paleo/Ancestral Health community. These folks originally turned to veganism when they were younger, largely out of a concern for the health and welfare of the entire planet and its inhabitants. Their ideas about animal agriculture evolved but that doesn’t mean that they now dismiss animal welfare as trivial.
You don’t need to raise your own chickens to make a profound difference in the lives of animals and support sustainable agriculture. However, you DO need to know your farmer. You need to seek out farmer’s markets and CSA’s and talk to your farmer about his/her practices. You can do this whether you live in a rural community, or a place like Harlem, where I used to live. 🙂
You are absolutely correct in your assertion that CAFO meat is completely unsustainable. Grass-fed meat is, on the contrary, totally sustainable, and I assert that as a person who doesn’t eat meat. I would also contend that a permaculture type of agricultural system which includes livestock is actually less violent than large-scale grain based agriculture. (I hate to keep repeating myself, but large scale organic plant-based agriculture is almost completely dependent on CAFO manure for their fertilizer. Every time you buy from those folks you indirectly support the worst treatment of animals. But that is a topic for another time). 🙂
By the way: If you want to really explore the science behind why at least some people require animal foods to thrive, I would highly recommend the work of Dr. Chris Masterjohn.
FrankG says
And these same CAFOs are the breeding grounds for the deadly strains of e-coli, which kill many people each year.. and no longer just from eating undercooked hamburger* but increasingly from cross-contaminated tomatoes, lettuces, peanuts etc…
*Anyone else here recall how a gourmet restaurant might serve RAW ground-up steak tartar, or a body-builder drinking a jug of milk with a dozen RAW eggs cracked into it, for breakfast? Nowadays in the USA ,it seems that every restaurant has a warning on the menu about under-cooking meat or eggs and anyone who even handles an egg is so paranoid they need to go wash their hands immediately!
This is the problem with factory-farming… raising livestock, can be done with respect and compassion for ALL life. I am convinced that this is the only sustainable way forward.
einstein says
and i strongly agree.
Erica Martell says
Karin,
That’s a good answer and makes sense except that we are talking about 290 million people in this country alone and factory farming, not one person with a home garden and a cow. That isn’t the premise anyone is arguing against and to suggest that is the option for most people is not following a linear argument. I live in a city of 8 million, not one of whom has the option to grow their own food. Almost no one does. No doubt that would be optimal and then the argument would not be about the cow. People have an issue mostly with factory farming. Yes there are a few real abolitionist vegans but that is not the discussion here.
anna says
OK, I agree. I am convinced. Everyone should be vegan, except, except, except …. for me.
And I don’t need that much. A couple of cows, some chicken, some fish, some grass (I hope that the vegan world will share), etc.
Erica Martell says
Actually I believe it was Chris Kresser who set the topic about vegan and vegetarian diets, not vegan “trolls”.
bcflyfisher says
Yes, but his intention was to discuss the possibility / practicality of a nutritionally-complete veg*n diet.
The brigade of veg*n visitors has turned it into a preach-fest about their moral high road. Most of them aren’t contributing anything useful in terms of addressing possible nutritional deficiencies.
Susan says
I would encourage readers to look at the ever mounting research that plant based diets reduce and often reverse a number of illnesses (heart disease, stroke, diabetes). This does not happen when consuming animal foods. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine has tons of information, as does “The China Study”. Also one only needs to look at the Blue Zones of the world to see where people live the longest – they eat very little animal products at all, much less daily. In regards to eating tons of soy and grains as a staple, many current vegetarians/vegans do not consume as much soy or none at all as in previous years. Many also eat gluten free. The key is to use whole foods. As with any diet, there are junk food vegetarians/vegans that eat convenience foods out of boxes, or people that use whole foods and cook from scratch. Today’s vegan/vegetarian is not the same as it was even 5 years ago. Many of you keep referring to previous experiences, but those were your experiences based on the knowledge available then to you, not necessarily the same as what is happening now in vegan/vegetarian diets.
Dila says
The China study was totally debunked by Denise Minger.
She took a few months to thoroughly study it and uncovered staggering faults in it that could not have been done by a simple negligence or mistake. T. Colin Campbell twisted the data on purpose to suit his vegetarian agenda. Denise refutes his book brilliantly. Read her critique for yourself http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/ or watch her presentation here
OnTheFence says
Umm an experienced PhD in nutritional biochemistry up against Denise Minger – not moving me off the fence on this one. He did post a rebuttal to her and was kind in saying:
“Kudos to Ms. Minger for having the interest, and taking the time, to do considerable analysis, and for describing her findings in readily accessible language. And kudos to her for being clear and admitting, right up front, that she is neither a statistician nor an epidemiologist, but an English major with a love for writing and an interest in nutrition. We need more people with this kind of interest.
I am the first to admit that background and academic credentials are certainly not everything, and many interesting discoveries and contributions have been made by “outsiders” or newcomers in various fields. On the other hand, background, time in the field, and especially peer review, all do give one a kind of perspective and insight that is, in my experience, not attainable in any other way. I will try to make clear in my comments below when this is particularly relevant.”
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html
So I think my time on this blog is done – hasn’t moved me.
Stipetic says
So, an ad hominem rebuttal was all you needed to be convince? No addressing of the science necessary? I mean, was that really a rebuttal? Wouldn’t a head-to-head match-up of addressing the facts been more pursuasive than, “well, she’s just a girl and I’m the mighty T. Colon Campbell” be more worthwhile?
OnTheFence says
I see it differently, if I am trying to look at both sides of this issue – why would i not want to review the rebuttal material – that is the nature of debate, thus the reference to the scientist’s rebuttal. No need to respond to me directly as I am not learning anything new via these posts and apparently I am not adding new either. Good bye. Best of health to you.
FrankG says
So are you now claiming to have actually read Denise Minger’s initial reassessment of the China Study data, then Dr Campbells’s rebuttal, then her response to him… and so on?
From your above response it seems that you stopped after reading a third party re-hashing of Dr Campbell’s rebuttal… you had the answer you wanted!
FrankG says
… a third-party re-hashing from a clearly vegetarian site… so expecting unbiased commentary there to meet your quest for true knowledge???
FrankG says
Denise Minger has posted the complete 11 part series here including links to T. Colin Campbell’s rebuttal and her response to it…
http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/
You’ll find that the scientific method is immune to the type of “appeal to authority” exhibited both by Campbell and Fence just above… you don’t get a free pass based on your credentials, no matter who you may be… the facts have to speak for themselves.
But as suspected, “OnTheFence” was a bit of a misnomer really… just another passive-aggressive ideologue who has a clear agenda and is not open to reason.
OnTheFence says
I am sorry FrankG you feel the need to insult me – I doubt or at least hope you would not talk to me this way in person. You are wrong – you can see my response to Stipectic directly above as well. Good bye. No need to response directly to me.
FrankG says
You still here..?
FrankG says
And the PCRM is a vegan organisation… if they were not trying to obfuscate their true agenda they would be more properly called the “Vegan Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.. then folks would be able to see that expecting unbiased “science” from them is about as unlikely as expecting unbiased discussion on race-relations from the Third Reich.
Indeed this is the same issue I see rampant throughout the comments here… on one side we have folks trying to present a reasoned argument: based on evidence-based-science and following where the data logically leads; while on the other we have an emotion-based agenda rooted in “killing animals is horrid”…
Whatever your personal reasons for choosing not to eat meat, you are not convincing anyone here with even half-a-brain that it is based in science, nor that it is best for the planet.
Open your mind and your eyes… look at the “Allan Savory: How to green the world’s deserts and reverse climate change” presentation (as posted just above by Drumroll) for a little insight into why we need livestock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI
The buffalo literally made the Great Plains.. then man came along, wasted them all and ploughed it up just so all that topsoil could blow away in the great dust bowl. Now farmers rely heavily on fossil-fuel derived fertilizers and pesticides to grow their crops.. using up valuable, non-renewable resources, while polluting our ecosystem and wiping all kinds of life off their sterile fields. Give them a chance to turn this around and grow real whole food — support local initiatives.
Now we can talk about compassion to all life.
Drumroll says
I think all vegans might be surprised by this extremely insightful view on how raising animals for grazing and meat consumption could potentially reverse soil erosion in the grasslands AND lower the effect of greenhouse gasses on the environment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI
It certainly throws two of their most common arguments into contention at least.
Erica Martell says
Chris Kresser started his post mentioning his awareness of the compassionate concerns of people who choose not to eat animals. I don’t see one meat eater who has the same awareness. People choose to be vegan because they choose not to eat current farm animals who are raised with poor diets, in horrific conditions, slaughtered mercilessly by poor souls who have that horrific task 8 plus hours a day, fed the majority of the antibiotics big pharma produces. It has nothing to do with how our ancestors hunted meat. It has nothing to do with our ancestors at all. It is usually a compassionate choice and with that awareness they are usually, if they do any research, able to figure out how to resolve whatever nutrient deficiencies come along. However considering the vast majority of people eat meat and the country is quickly going down the crapper, I wouldn’t argue for meat being the answer. Is bio-individuality the answer? That each person eats what is best for them? Sure, as long as those who choose to eat meat are as aware of the cost as those who have taken the time to expose themselves to the suffering we protect ourselves from (Albert Schweitzer paraphrase). If you can eat meat once you are mindful that many cows have their legs cut off while they are still alive, go ahead. The difference here is in an awakening of compassion, not micronutrients, past or present. And that is why this conversation never comes to any conclusion – because it is comparing apples to oranges and no one seems able to make an overarching statement of why. The why is compassion that comes from eating like you care about more than yourself. Yes, the planet may still be on it’s last legs but some people still choose to commit to each day as though their choices matter to the whole. OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon, or you just need it to be healthy…or how it’s just about you.
FrankG says
“OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon, or you just need it to be healthy…or how it’s just about you.”
So if “not a vegan or vegetarian” what do you eat?
Beyond that I am getting pretty tired of your overbearing sanctimonious attitude… especially as you also seem to suffer from selective reading comprehension. I personally have responded to you several times already and made my position quite clear as: being firmly against all forms of animal cruelty, of respect for all life and deeply committed to a sustainable and respectful future for humans and all other life on this planet. In my view that includes the rearing and eating of livestock and other animal products.
I see ALL forms of factory-farming and industrial food production as harmful and unsustainable INCLUDING the vast crop mono-cultures which support this ridiculous “1st world” ideology of veganity.
Mina says
If you can eat vegetables just be mindful that when they are harvested rodents, reptile and baby birds have their legs cut off while still alive and their bodies mangled by harvesters. Go to a farm and watch the threshing machines. Go to a vegetable canning factory and see the dead and dying animals that come down the chute with the spinach. You cannot exist on this planet without taking life. I’m sorry. I know you are tenderhearted and it is beautiful but it is fantasy.
Geo says
Overall, after reading ALL of these posts and talking to people who have taken different routes to eating and health, I think it should be clear that there simply isn’t ONE right way. People have been able to survive, and thrive, on almost every corner of the globe. It’s about making smart choices and staying away from processed crap. Everyone has an agenda and the arguments both ways have merit, because they can BOTH be right. It’s all a matter of doing what you can do consistently and what you feel is right for you.
Brandon says
This is absolutely exhausting.
I am 45 and recently discovered I am hypothyroid. I have been overweight from the earliest photos of myself – even as a child. I am 6′ tall and weigh 230. I would like to be 190-200 as I lift weights and really want/like to be active.
I have tried any number of diets – including going vegan for a month – and have settled on a vegetarian/paleo type diet for myself. I’ve eliminated most sugars and breads from my diet and do not drink milk anymore.
My wife is vegan/vegetarian and she seems to love it. Only problem is I m just not convinced it is the ‘right way’ for everyone and certainly not the way that humans have been eating for the last several hundred years.
I, on the other hand, do not feel ‘right’ without a certain amount of animal protein that is mostly consumed in eating eggs, lowfat cheese, cottage cheese and whey protein.
I recently quit my job last year and started my own business that was my big goal. My big goal this year is to get in the best shape of my life as someone dealing with hypothyroid.
The years of beating myself up and self loathing are tempered by the fact that I now know I had a seriously underperforming thyroid and thus unable to lose weight like most people.
So here I am on a Monday about to head to the gym and once again scratching my head over the confusing information and the back-and-forth dialogue of diet and nutrition information.
The only conclusions that I have come to in regards to food and nutrition so far in my life are these:
1 ) Keep testing different combinations of healthy unprocessed food to see how my body responds
2) I will not treat what and how I eat as a religion. I absolutely believe that living things should be treated in a humane way that maximizes their health benefits, however I feel no moral conflict that we should or should not eat animals. I have no patience for people who try and convert others to their belief system (or dietary choices) by asserting their moral high ground.
3) I believe that it is the chemicals/hormones that is put in most meat, fish and poultry that leads to chronic health diseases. For this I blame our government for their ignorance, their ability to be bought, and desire to treat human beings like cattle.
4) I believe that my body is strong enough to handle a greasy hamburger and fries or a stack of pancakes with bacon once every 2-3 months.
5) Sugar, for me, has proven to be one of the worst chemicals I can eat – causing depression, fatigue, anger, irritability and more.
6) Water is my friend. Drink as much as I can during the day.
I’m not sure where I was going with this comment but maybe there are other people like me out there who deal with some kind of health issue, and are confused and frustrated over all this back-and-forth information.
Before I knew about hypothyroid, the answers for me were all about diet and exercise. Now, after being diagnosed, it’s about diet exercise and genetics.
What I conclude from all this conversation is that every human being is not made to eat one diet, but rather based on their genetics may need certain combinations of nutrients/foods/portions different from the next person and this takes time and experimentation to figure out.
That’s all I got.
Erica Martell says
I made the first post in response and I’ve followed the argument since….which is just as I knew it would be. Lots of people splitting hairs about micronutrients when in fact most people won’t even drink an extra cup of water if they don’t feel like it much less pursue all their micronutrient realities in real time – although they can sling the language in message boards. The other thing that gets missed in these discussions is that vegans have mostly watched the videos where they show you cows being hacked apart while still alive, including grass eating cows who still don’t go to happy slaughterhouses, and baby chicks being dumped by the tens of thousands into macerators because they’re male, baby calves being removed from their mothers at birth so we can drink their milk. They are thinking about more than themselves. The meat eaters are to a one talking about themselves and their micronutrients. They never address the whole or others. I’ve eaten meat all my life and I spent not one second pursuing micronutrients in real life. I’m sure I have that in common with, as one person just mentioned, 99% of the American population. The major disease, as expressed by Michio Kuchi, the father of macrobiotics, is arrogance, and that I see in spades in this discussion.
Sharon says
This is another educational video of Dr Jameth Sheridan explaining how some vegans did not eat as nutritionally as they should on a vegan diet and later go back to eating meat.
Sharon says
Dr Jameth Sheridan explains why it is safe to be on a vegan diet. He is a doctor so anyone is welcomed to rebuke him.
Sharon says
I want to say that if I have to rely on animals to live, I would rather have a short existence because such a way of living is just not worth living a long life. I want to be happy and beautiful inside and out. Eating eggs and meat is just ugly and it doesn’t make me feel beautiful.
If I have to live with any possible non-threatening deficiencies from being vegan then so be it, it would be my willing sacrifice for wanting to live a life away from needing to rely on animals for anything.
But I still don’t believe that vegans can be deficient because nutritional science is so advanced to provide for any possible lack of nutrients from any diet.
Karin says
“If I have to live with any possible non-threatening deficiencies from being vegan then so be it, it would be my
willing sacrifice for wanting to live a life away from needing to rely on animals for anything.”
I used to say the same thing. In a way I still find it sweet, if hopelessly naive. You seem to have no clue about the numbers of non-human lives that people are responsible for taking and/or displacing every single day JUST BY LIVING.
Do you grow all of your own food? How do you think the organic farmer replaces the nutrients lost when the vegetables are harvested? How do you think the vegetables get to market? Have you ever thought about what it takes to get a coconut from Asia to the United States? Do you even have a GUESS about how many animals, including highly intelligent marine animals are harmed in the process? How about the process of transporting almond milk from California to New York?
May I ask if you eat any processed foods? Do you even have a CLUE about how VEGAN food processing impacts the world around you?
Christopher says
Sharon, you seem like a kind-hearted, good natured person and it is a shame you are so naive. Wanting to be happy and beautiful are wonderful goals but eating meat and eggs isn’t a roadblock to that unless you’ve indoctrinated yourself to think so.
If you would rather live a short unhealthy life than rely on animal products to survive, well that is your choice but if your ancestors had made it, you wouldn’t be here right now.
Sharon says
Nope, I’m not as naive or simple-minded as you think I am. I have done my research in nutrition and am convinced that the vegan path supported with the required supplements is safe for me to lead a healthy and happy life.
And I don’t follow the fallacy of appealing to nature/tradition so I will gladly use technological advancements in nutritional supplements to help me on the vegan diet.
Sharon says
Nope, I’m not as naive or simple-minded as you think I am. I have done my research in nutrition and am convinced that the vegan path supported with the required supplements is safe for me to lead a healthy and happy life.
And I don’t follow the fallacy of appealing to nature/tradition so I will gladly use advancements in nutritional supplements to help me on the vegan diet.
Sharon says
Sorry, but I’ll have to say that the naive person is really you. It is a well known fact that 60 billion land animals are killed annually to satisfy the demand for meat. Thanks for your meat recommendation but I’ll go with the much less cruel, less polluting and more healthy alternative.
I’ll take my chances with as much advanced supplements as I can and you are welcome to take yours with the cancer-causing toxin-filled meat and dairy.
Karin says
Sharon,
I regret that I don’t have time at the moment to watch all of the video links that you have provided.
May I ask what you typically eat and where you purchase your food? It would be enlightening to learn how you grow your food and have it processed and transported to you without involving/harming a single animal.
As I stated elsewhere in the thread, a homesteading family can sustain itself for a year almost entirely on the milk of a single cow slaughtered at the end of that year, supplemented by a gently-managed garden plot enriched by the cow’s manure. One life given. One life taken.
A “vegan” family, by contrast, can purchase thousands of pounds of avocados, coconuts, bananas, tomatoes, grains, legumes, etc., etc. etc. over the course of the same year. How many lives are taken by displacement, how many lives are mutilated by tractor blades, snares, and shipping collisions, how many lives are harmed by the extraction of the oil, the greenhouse gases, the water pollution, sound pollution etc.; how many mammals become roadkill in the process of getting that food to that family? If it is possibly greater than one then maybe we have some serious thinking to do about how we evaluate these matters.
If I were to be reincarnated as an animal I would sooner live the life of that cow than that of an animal killed by some cargo ship transporting coconuts thousands of miles from its source, making our oceans more of a violent cesspool than a habitat. But that is me; I can understand how someone else might come to a different conclusion.
I think that humane living is a matter of doing the best we can with the information that we have, flawed animals that we are.
Sharon says
Karin, you seem to hold on to the notion that one has to always eat in a way so as not to harm a single life such as an ant or fly, which in my opinion is just unrealistic and frankly quite extreme.
Karin says
Hi Sharon,
I’m so happy to see that you’re back on the thread! Maybe now we can address each other’s specific points/questions.
🙂
Anyway Sharon, you stated:
“Karin, you seem to hold on to the notion that one has to always eat in a way so as not to harm a single life such as an ant or fly, which in my opinion is just unrealistic and frankly quite extreme.”
On the contrary, I thought I made myself quite clear that it is NOT possible to obtain one’s food without harming other living things, and that in fact, MANY conscious meat eaters eat in a way that actually causes LESS SUFFERING than those who consider themselves “vegans”. When I was “vegan”, for example, I didn’t give nearly enough thought to the tremendous costs associated with trekking things like almond milk, avocados, chia seeds, coconuts, etc. thousands of miles from every corner of the globe in an effort to provide for my daily nutritional needs. I believe now that I was willfully delusional.
Unfortunately, it seems that you either didn’t understand my last post, or that you deliberately misinterpreted it, so I will repeat some of it below, (with apologies to others reading!) in the sincere hope that we can actually engage in a REAL (rather than a pretend) discussion about the issue that I was raising:
“A homesteading family can sustain itself for a year almost entirely on the milk of a single cow slaughtered at the end of that year, supplemented by a gently-managed garden plot enriched by the cow’s manure. One life given. One life taken.
A “vegan” family, by contrast, can purchase thousands of pounds of avocados, coconuts, bananas, tomatoes, grains, legumes, etc., etc. over the course of the same year. How many lives are taken by displacement, how many lives are mutilated by tractor blades, snares, and shipping collisions, how many lives are harmed by the extraction of the oil, the greenhouse gases, the water pollution, sound pollution etc.; how many mammals become roadkill in the process of getting that food to that family? If it is possibly greater than one then maybe we have some serious thinking to do about how we evaluate these matters.”
Sharon,
Upon rereading that last paragraph, I hope that you finally realize that I was talking about HORRIFIC VIOLENCE done to some of the most conscious and intelligent animals on earth, not the harm done to a “single ant or fly”. (Perhaps your dainty way of rephrasing the issue was a coping mechanism on your part??)
Anyway, Sharon, would you agree that in some cases people can do LESS HARM by directly taking the lives of animals than they can in pursuit of a self-entitled vegan fantasy life?
As I stated earlier, if I were to be reincarnated as an animal I would sooner live the life of that cow than that of a marine mammal mutilated by some cargo ship transporting coconuts thousands of miles from its source.
I know that vegans think constantly about the horrors of taking lives, and if I were given the option of a life on a factory farm or nothing at all, I would absolutely choose nothing at all.
HOWEVER, if I were given the option of a short life on a family farm where I would be valued and respected or nothing at all, I would probably say okay to the family farm, even with the knowledge that my life would not be particularly long. Again, the choice is NOT between life or death–It is between having a short life or NO LIFE AT ALL. I would be just as fine with being a cow with the idea of being a zebra or a gazelle, knowing that my last few moments on earth are unlikely to be pleasant. Nothing lasts forever.
I asked you previously if you had any ideas about how veganic farming would look like from your perspective, because again, almost all self-described vegans are subsisting on food that COULD NOT have been grown without the existence of animal agriculture. I still would love to hear about how you obtain your food and any ideas that you might have for how agriculture would work in a vegan world.
My final question pertains to the fact that people have different nutritional needs due to genetic/biological differences: Would you agree that at least some people cannot live normal human lives, much less thrive on a plant-only diet?
For example, I know of one woman who is living on an ALL-MEAT diet for health reasons, due to vast and severe food sensitivities, and that she credits her carnivorous diet with keeping her bipolar disorder in remission. Would you agree that it’s not unethical to take the lives of animals to feed unfortunate humans beings such as this woman, who has sensitivities to grains AND legumes AND nuts AND various fruits and vegetables?
I’ll stop there for now, because I could go on all night, lol.
Bye for now!
Sharon says
And not willing to take the time to watch a 4 min video yet is willing to express oneself from writing paragraphs of long texts that takes longer, only makes one seem quite willfully ignorant and lazy in research, frankly speaking.
Sorry but I prefer not to continue a discussion with someone who is not truly earnest and patient enough to desire seeing the bigger picture. I wish you all the best in your hormone, antibiotics and toxin-filled diet.
Daniela says
I LOVE your answer – completely agree!!!!! Thank you!!!
Daniela Soledae says
Sharon,
I am so proud of your video and I just wish it was easier to share the message with other people. I just feel like I have to tell them to watch “Forks Over Knives” and “Food Matters” and other documentaries to see if they will get it! But I have hope that, one by one, we can share this message so that our people can stop dying of cancer and heart diseases! Thank you for helping share the message!!
Colin says
If animals were in our position on the food chain, then wouldn’t give us an ounce of mercy and compassion. Remember that the next time you go on another one of your self aggrandizing rants.
Colin says
*they wouldn’t
JC says
I’ve been vegan for 25 years and consider it one of the best decisions of my life (my doctor agrees). I lost 25 lbs and kept it off all these years!
Here’s a video to help everyone understand why so many people are making this life affirming choice and why the number of vegans has doubled in the US in less than 3 years.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKr4HZ7ukSE
Also, here’s a link for everyone who wants to join the revolution: 21-Day Vegan Kickstart http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/kickstart/kickstart-programs
Jenny says
Just wanted to let you know there’s a small typo in the zinc section! “Omniovorous diet” or omnivorous diet? 🙂 Delete this after you’ve read it! No need to keep nit-picky comments like mine.
Karl says
I have to go to work so don’t have time to read. I’ll read later. At work there are too many vegetarians. I believe one picked it up to suck up to the others. I notice they always get cold and are cranky. They’re all women of course, and I think witchy is a better word.
Florence says
I continue to spread the word about your site and sound advice that is so well documented. Your information has been crucial to resolving my heartburn and esophageal spasms that were so bad, it was causing me to lose my voice. After seeing specialists, I was diagnosed with GERD and prescribed prevacid and gaviscon which failed to work. It was your article, “Get rid of heartburn and GERD forever in 3 simple steps” that put me on the road to recovery. I was tested positive for H-pylori which was cleared up with an H-Pac and now I follow your guidelines and have been heartburn free for 6 months plus my voice has returned to “almost normal”!
I purchased your book which is amazing but it is your dedication to this site that has been a life-saver for many of us who read it faithfully. Thank you so much for all the hard work you do. Best wishes in all that you do.
Florence says
I wanted to add that the doctors recommended a low-acid, vegetarian diet which I tried for a few months and only felt worse. The legumes were particularly difficult for me to digest no matter how I tried to cook them. My stomach felt like it was cannibalizing itself. Once I cleared up the H-Pylori and resumed a regular Paleo diet, my health was back to normal within weeks. I am not saying that what worked for me would work for the next person but I would suggest they at least try it if they are experiencing the same symptoms as I did.
This post is also to express concern for the increasing personal attacks, not at the data, but at the people posting. Why is this moving away from an adult discussion of the data to a “if you are not with us, you are against us” mentality? We all have the personal choice to eat what we want and this forum is simply another place to provide us with specific information regarding these choices. It is only one part of a toolkit that you compile to live your life.
IF you find that some of the information conflicts with what you believe in, then by all means, present your argument. But don’t let it get personal because then your message is lost and where is the value in that?
Thank you again Chris for your hard work and information that works for me.
KC says
I have read this whole string of “crap”. I find it peculiar that there are only Vegans/Vegetarians testifying that they eventually had to start to eat real food after a 5, 10, 20 year stint of not. It takes a lot of courage to Denise Minger/Lierre Keith yourself and admit you were damaging your body.
What is absolutely hilarious is with every testimony a Vego will pop on and say “you weren’t doing it right!” Are you kidding me! When you make an active choice to eat Vego, it aint easy, it is like a full time job! Eating correctly is not that tuff, eat real food. It strikes me that a complete Vego diet is nothing more than a hodgepodge of side dishes from around the world that were meant to be eaten with some form of animal product. But instead of the animal products the side dishes are put together 3 to 6 at a time in an attempt to replicate something healthy.
The other peculiar thing is, Kressers web site is like the last place I would expect to see Vegos in full force. Which confirms that the McDougal / Ornish Vego propaganda notification networks is still alive and well. In other words post anything on the interwebs that may even slightly question the Vegos and prepare for mountains of bullshit propaganda, and statements like, “meat rots in your gut” which disqualifies the poster as having a working frontal lobe.
Eat real food. It is that easy. And for those of you all touchy feely about killing things, thank your lucky stars you live in the “now” because if it were 200 years ago, life would have been really rough for you.
Sharon says
Why are people prohibited from saying that something is wrong?
Christopher says
Amen. It is only in the last few generations that people haven’t had to kill for their meals. My grandparents had to raise and kill their own chickens in post-war Europe because there was little else to eat. I am grateful I don’t have to do that but I would if I had to. Even when I was vegan, I knew that was reality and the convenience of industrial society is what has allowed veganism to thrive… which is why they are causing as much harm as good (at least as much as the rest of us).
Daniel says
From the Vegan Society website (so ironic isn’t it): A study in the UK of 34,696 adults, over five years, found that the vegans studied had a higher risk of bone fracture than the meat eaters, fish eaters and vegetarians studied. This appeared to be a result of their lower calcium intake – no increase in risk was found in those vegans consuming at least 525 mg of calcium per day – and highlights the importance of ensuring an adequate intake of calcium.4 Recommended intakes are given in Calcium Requirements above.
KTB says
After reading all the comments here, my disdain for Vegans has been re-verified. The ego of Vegans knows no bounds.I was ‘fluffy’ as a vegetarian and only got lean and had much more energy when I added meat back to my diet. Same with my son-in-law who was forced to be vegetarian by his dad and was chubby until he started eating meat. Only in fantasyland is being vegan or vegetarian not based on starchy carbs and grains. If you choose to not eat meat or dairy—good for you. But keep your big vegan nose out of my business—because meat is good for many people as we are all individuals. This concept seems impossible for Vegans to accept.
Timothy Tang says
You guys didn’t know how to eat right. Did you know vitamins A D E and K require fats to be carried within the body? Do you also know where to get iodine, and do you also get sufficient vitamin D, sodium and fats?
ktb says
“You guys didn’t know how to eat right”
Exactly– You have a point, because to ‘eat right’ we needed eggs and meat, which we eat now and have energy, muscle definition and have lost the fluff from grains.
Sharon says
My disdain for meat-eaters has also been verified.
Emily says
you are definitely misinformed about the vegan diet. b12 is the ONLY vitamin i have to supplement, and all my other nutrient levels are fine. there is just as much calcium in a couple tablespoons of tahini or chia seeds as there is in milk, and there is iron in almost every food i eat – calorie for calorie, there’s more iron in beans than meat. AND beans have other nutrients such as fiber and phytochemicals that animal protein does not. also, it’s been proven time and time again that milk proteins are carcinogenic… if it were suddenly known that cigarettes provide 30% of your daily calcium, you wouldn’t become a smoker, right? milk isn’t any different. but hey, i guess all of these claims are just an excuse for people to eat high fat animal protein
John Richards says
Sorry but the iron in plant foods isn’t nearly as bio-available as the heme iron in meat.
Sharon says
Then I guess the herbivore animals would all be iron deficient? Ridiculous.
Christopher says
Herbivore animals have different digestive systems than us, which is how they can absorb plant iron better than we can.
bcflyfisher says
Um….you AREN’T a herbivore.
John Richards says
It is ridiculous to assume that herbivores have the same digestive tract as that of humans. Theirs is specially adapted to obtain nutrients from plants.
Sharon says
If you want to show that iron is not bio-available to humans, you would have to show the science reports to confirm this. Saying things out of thin air is not going to convince anyone.
Carrie Wilcox says
Actually, our teeth and digestive system is closer to that of an Herbivore’s than any other. Check out the chart in this article:
Karin says
I am a former animal-rights oriented vegan (at least I thought of myself as vegan at the time) and I was embarrassingly self-righteous about it. Now that I know more about human nutrition, agriculture, and sustainability (I have a degree in crop and soil science) I feel that incorporating carefully chosen, locally-grown animal products is a far more rational and ethical choice for me. (In fact, just about all “veggie” organic agriculture is COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON CAFOs, so I actually don’t know that I’ve ever met an authentic vegan, but that’s a topic for another post). Anyway, I’m here to post today’s first challenge of the day:
I will happily send $100 (via paypal) to the first poster who can provide a reasonable three-day meal plan for two children, ages 9 and 2.
Here are the rules:
1. It must be vegan.
2. It must be based on whole, minimally processed foods.
3. It must be soy and gluten free.
4. It must meet children’s basic nutritional needs, including the U.S. RDA for vitamin, mineral, protein, and fatty acid requirements, without resorting to supplements. (However, for argument’s sake, lets make an exception for Vitamin B 12).
5. The ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 fats must be less than 4:1.
I post this challenge in peace. I hope that it will be instructive for everyone, including me! I will prepare the meals for my children and post our experience/thoughts on Youtube. Thanks and good luck! 🙂
Timothy Tang says
Simple.
For breakfast, eat organic rolled or quick-cooking oatmeal with fresh or dried fruit.
For lunch, use dried chickpeas soaked for at least 8 hours(or overnight) and boil for 10 mins, then drain and serve whole or mashed in a food processor. Add sea salt for iodine if required. Spinkle flaxseeds if more omega 3 is desired. Variation: add a little tumeric powder for smoked ham flavor.
Serve fruits such as honey melon or kiwi for dessert.
For a dinner, the 2 yr old can eat pureed green peas or pureed boiled carrots or pumpkin. The 9 yr old can also eat those or eat additional spiralized zuchini spaghetti served with avocado sauce with lemon juice or pureed tomato sauce with diced capsicum. Add fresh alfafa or pea sprouts.
Repeat for all 3 days using different flavoring for all meals.
KTB says
OMG—I’m hungry for eggs and meat just reading this. WHO can eat this and be satisfied. My blood sugar would be so screwed up with all the starchy carbs and no sustenance. Where is the healthy fat to help with neural development???? Try offering a healthy teenage boy boiled pumpkin with peas for dinner and see what happens…LOL!!
Karin says
I know….this is just too ridiculous for words. Okay kids….we are having a big bowl of chickpeas with sprinkled flaxseeds for lunch……three days in a friggin row!!!!! But don’t worry……I’ll switch up the flavorings….turmeric Monday, oregano Tuesday, saffron Wednesday. Then we rinse and repeat.
I have to go because I’m crying too hard to see the computer screen….
Sharon says
There is nothing wrong in having the same foods for 3 days in a row. Try mocking the African children who have maize everyday of the year. Are you that privileged to think that simplicity is an anomaly?
Karin says
Actually, Sharon, my family and I were just discussing Timothy’s proposed meal plan last night. My 9 year old asked if I had sent Timothy the $100. I informed him that I absolutely DID NOT because it did not come close to meeting the requirements that I laid out in the challenge, particularly with regard to providing the RDA for various vitamins and minerals. Had his plan at least done that, I would have grudgingly sent him the cash despite the fact that it did in fact contain gluten and was FAR from reasonable.
On your contention that I was “mocking” simple diets: I would actually PREFER to eat the same foods every day IF I considered it a healthy way of eating. However, at best it is not a good choice if one is after optimal health.
Here is a link to a pubmed article on food allergies. You can find many others with similar information: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23282480
“Certain unique food allergens, such as buckwheat, chestnuts, CHICKPEAS (emphasis mine), bird’s nest, and royal jelly, which are consumed extensively by certain Asian populations have resulted in clinical food allergy of little importance in other populations……The high consumption of these foods…..may explain this phenomenon….”
Anyway, Sharon, if you desire to look into this topic further, you will see that food sensitivities and allergies are most common when people consume the same foods day in and day out. In Israel, for example, people are more likely to develop sensitivities to sesame, in Spain to chick peas and lentils, etc. On a related note: I volunteer at a community center, and I met a woman yesterday whose daughter has life- threatening allergies to legumes and nuts. I for one am very happy that they are not strict vegans!
OnTheFence says
I am not sure that this study is helpful to your point of eating a variety of foods: dust mite and cockroach allergens.
The high consumption of these foods and possibly coupled with cross-reactive tropomyosins from dominant inhalant dust mite and cockroach allergens in this region may explain this phenomenon. In contrast, the prevalence of peanut allergy is relatively low in this region. The reasons for this difference are not apparent. However, this may be a reflection of the general reduced propensity in this region to allergic diseases as seen with asthma.
CONCLUSIONS:
: Further research on food allergy in Asia is warranted because it offers unique opportunities to further our understanding on the influence of population and environment.
Sharon says
There is a study that found the delayed presence of gut microbes to be linked to food allergies and sensitivities.
The full link is posted here,
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v479/n7374_supp/full/479S5a.html
Karin says
Hi on the Fence,
I’m responding to your other question here, because there is some glitch with the reply buttons. (Chris Kresser, We love you, but we need to be able to see who is responding to whom to have a coherent discussion!)
Anyway On the Fence, I didn’t just pose the challenge for my own family, but for illustration purposes. Certainly, I would prepare MORE vegan meals if the challenge were met, particularly in the summer time, when I have access to more fresh local produce at my farmer’s market and from my CSA. But I don’t believe that trekking in the majority of my food from around the world does the animal world any favors. (As I stated earlier, I don’t believe I have ever met a vegan who is able to follow a purely vegan diet, because organic food production is currently dependent on animal agriculture. So the present question really isn’t WHETHER we should have animal agriculture at all but how it should work. I have yet to hear a coherent plan for how to feed people veganically, i.e., without using the by-products of animal agriculture. Right now, the organic producers buy manure, blood, bone meal, etc. from CAFOs. A very small minority buy it from neighboring organic farms, but it is almost entirely animal centered at its core. In my opinion, the most humane option at present is to only purchase non-animal foods from small scale farms that raise their own livestock with deep care and respect.
Sharon says
If you are referring to the possible contamination of gluten found in oatmeal, then there is the gluten-free version. You can also include black or brown rice porridge for breakfast.
The reason for food allergies can also originate from GMOs and pesticides, the study didn’t say what were the discovered causes of allergies from those foods.
There is a study that found the delayed presence of gut microbes to be linked to food allergies and sensitivities.
http://www.nature.com/…/v479/n7374_supp/full/479S5a.html
Timothy Tang says
People who are spiritual like me can be satisfied on simple foods. If you want eggs, you can make it with chickpea and mashed tofu. If you want meat you can make seitan from gluten flour and oatmeal. You need to be more creative rather than dumpster dive constantly from the meat trash bin.
Michael Cohen says
If I want eggs I will eat eggs. Try some in good yellow grass fed butter. You will not explode, you will simply feel better
Timothy Tang says
I tried it before, felt like shit.
bcflyfisher says
You probably have a bile production problem. Get that looked at. It’s very serious.
Karin says
Okay, well maybe when I feed my two year old his egg yolks tomorrow I’ll tell him that if he were only more “spiritual”, he wouldn’t need to get the RDA for pesky things like Selenium, Zinc, choline, calcium etc. in his diet.
And if he gets REALLY evolved, maybe he’ll learn to start conversations by calling people “stupid” for having different opinions and/or biological needs.
charles grashow says
If I want meat I will eat REAL GRASS FED/FINISHED BEEF
If I want eggs I will eat REAL EGGS FROM FREE RANGE CHICKENS
Mina says
Timothy Tang, I love that you call yourself spiritual but you entered this site and started calling everyone who eats meat “stupid”. Your spirituality has overwhelmed me and your compassionate attitude has enlightened me.
JeannieL says
Natural sea salt has no iodine.
Timothy Tang says
Oh I forgot. Add peanuts, soaked chia seeds with the fruits, or molasses for added calcium and protein.
Michael Cohen says
You have raised vegan children?
Timothy Tang says
No, I’m homosexual and don’t intend to have children ever. Guess this would be so conflicting against nature right?
Michael Cohen says
No, but I suspected from your meal plans for children, that you have never really fed any. I am a former vegan whos health was undermined by my erroneous beliefs.
Timothy Tang says
That’s because you didn’t know how to eat right.
Karin says
My 9 year old found it ironic that your proposed meal plan suggested peanuts as a source of added Calcium. And that you thought sea salt was a good source of iodine. And that you proposed next to nothing with selenium or zinc. Maybe he’s just too “stupid” to fit in with the vegan set.
Sharon says
So you think your 9-year old knows sufficiently about nutrients. If that is the case, why don’t you ask him to come up with the 3 day meal plan himself? Ridiculous.
Sharon says
You’re saying that if someone can be wrong about child-related nutrition then it would mean that they never had children? You’re saying that having children would make parents knowledgeable about all things child-related? Another ridiculous statement.
Sharon says
There was no reply option on your other post, so I’m responding here instead:
Yes, in answer to your question about my brilliant son, he probably already knows more about nutrition than 99% of the American population and the ONLY reason we didn’t come up with such a plan together is that we didn’t really see how it was possible to meet the nutritional demands of children by natural vegan foods alone. (And I didn’t even ask for locally grown and sustainable foods, which I probably should have). In their recommended vegan meal plans for kids, you’ll see that even the Physicians’ Committee For Responsible Medicine resorts to recommending Cheerios and Calcium-fortified orange juice and soymilk. The message should be clear: Without heavy supplementation, and reliance on Big Agriculture, it is not clear how a person who eats about 1000 calories a day (like my 2 year old) can possibly obtain the RDA for all essential nutrients. If they don’t think the RDA is really necessary, then the LEAST that they owe parents considering veganism for their child is to come out and admit it!
Karin says
Sharon,
There was no reply option on your other post, so I’m responding here instead:
Yes, in answer to your question about my brilliant son, he probably already knows more about nutrition than 99% of the American population and the ONLY reason we didn’t come up with such a plan together is that we didn’t really see how it was possible to meet the nutritional demands of children by natural vegan foods alone. (And I didn’t even ask for locally grown and sustainable foods, which I probably should have). In their recommended vegan meal plans for kids, you’ll see that even the Physicians’ Committee For Responsible Medicine resorts to recommending Cheerios and Calcium-fortified orange juice and soymilk. The message should be clear: Without heavy supplementation, and reliance on Big Agriculture, it is not clear how a person who eats about 1000 calories a day (like my 2 year old) can possibly obtain the RDA for all essential nutrients. If they don’t think the RDA is really necessary, then the LEAST that they owe parents considering veganism for their child is to come out and admit it!
OnTheFence says
So Karin, it sounds like you have done all your research and found that is not possible to feed children on a vegan diet and are a childhood nutrition expert. So I am wondering why you raised this challenge. If it was possible to raise healthy children on a whole unprocessed vegan diet – would you do it? If not – challenge is not worth exploration.
Sharon says
Are you Karin or ‘Sharon’? It seems like you are going through an identity crisis. But anyway, thanks for the discussion, I need to read a magazine now.
ktb says
The point is Timothy Tang that infants and children have very specific nutritional needs especially for neurological development that vegan foods canNOT supply! If an older teenager decides on their own to go vegan or vegetarian, that should be their choice but with a caveat that they could be missing out on very important nutrients that they won’t notice for a decade or two. If eating Vegan makes you feel good—-go for it. But as a person with no children and obviously no knowledge of the proper nutritional needs of growing children, I suggest you either do some research and base your suggestions on that or just accept that you could be wrong thinking YOUR diet is for everyone.
Sharon says
What specific needs do children have? Care to clarify?
JacquieRN says
I am not submitting a 3 day meal plan in hopes of gaining $$ – so just passing this along and substitute out the soy for instance almond milk .
http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vsk/vegetarian-starter-kit-children
http://nutritionfacts.org/index.php?s=children
Karin says
The PCRM website’s meal plan doesn’t provide certain key nutrients, doesn’t provide them in a whole foods form, and sneakily adds things like soymilk (which is synthetically fortified) to avoid addressing the deficiencies of these foods as they exist in their natural state. Try doing the math on calcium and zinc with the sample meals. Good luck finding Vitamin K2 in these meals. Not to mention cofactors that we are yet to discover! I didn’t see a sample plan provided by nutritionfacts.org, run by a guy who incidentally seems to be suffering from some sort of chronic wasting disease…..
Karin says
I checked out that PCRM site again and noticed that the best it can do to provide kids with enough iron and zinc is to add food-like substances like Cheerios to the meal plan. Absolutely shameful. And I used to be a member. (By the way, do vegans really think that these industrially produced foods are manufactured and transported in a way that doesn’t involve the deaths of animals?)
A family of 6 can feed itself quite well on a single dairy cow that is slaughtered at the end of a year. The manure that that cow survives can fertilize all of the supplementary foods that said family would need. One life taken.
Let see an estimate for the number of lives taken in the manufacture and transport of the almond juice and Cheerios alone for the same family of six over the course of a year….Anyone?
JacquieRN says
Sorry, I was just trying to help apparently I didn’t. I was new to this site but now it appears to me that no new information or evidence-based info is being exchanged just tired same-old “arguments”.
Somehow it seems strange to me that you tell the story of your choices but if someone else has a story you will are not open to hearing it-but instead “run by a guy who incidentally seems to be suffering from some sort of chronic wasting disease…..” : Dr. Greger’s work, health and story is quite amazing albeit different from yours.
One last thing before I go…over my many years as a nurse, I have had the privilege of seeing human body from inside and outside; in pieces and as a whole – it can be resilient and survive but we as people are often blinded by an idea.
Best of health to you and your family.
Karin says
Hi there. Thank you for the wishes of health. I wish you the same.
I guess I didn’t really perceive you as trying to help….considering that I was specifically asking for a three day meal plan based on WHOLE FOODS and not synthetic additives, one that was gluten and soy free and met all of a child’s nutritional requirements. You however chose to post not a plan but a link to meal options that included heavily processed foods with synthetic additives, made with wheat and refined oats and soy. I mean, did you REALLY think that I couldn’t have found THAT myself? And if you’re so opposed to collecting $100, couldn’t you have given it to a darn charity? We’re talking 3 days of nutritionally complete, natural vegan meals here….Is that really so hard?
I fear that the answer is yes.
Lucy says
So who did the research. The meat and diary industries? There is absolutely nothing wrong with being vegan. In fact I have never felt this healty. I even was able to turn around my diabetes. Hmmmm
Timothy Tang says
I just want to say that people who still think that meat is the only nutritious food is just plain stupid and backdated, and only want to believe so because they cannot move away from the addiction of strong flavors. There is a proper way to be vegan without facing the nutrient deficiencies. Stupid people can just remain in their stupid meat diet.
Karin says
Ha ha ha! I don’t happen to eat meat, but I can tell you that a whole lot of paleo-style eaters would be more than happy to eat soy ice cream and boca burgers and bread slathered with Earth Balance if taste were such a priority!
Bone broths and liver aren’t exactly addictive foods, lol. 🙂
KTB says
Hmmm……then why does my mouth water when I think of butter fried liver and onions and salty bone broth with lots of fatty marrow???? Not every body can thrive on plant foods. I know mine didn’t and I am so much happier and healthier eating plenty of healthy fatty meats with my gobs of veggies and fruits. Taking out grains and legumes was the healthiest decision of my life.
Karin says
I totally agree with you, KTB. My only point was that people aren’t ADDICTED to liver like they are to Doritos, for example. They might find it desirable, however, because they are in tune with what their body needs. The notion that people who eat meat are only doing it for the sake of their taste buds is just patently absurd.
Timothy Tang says
If you have done your research properly, you would have known that vegans go back to eating meat because they crave salty foods and fats too perhaps, because they didn’t eat a balanced vegan diet and deprived themselves from much salt and fat.
KTM even said he/she wants to eat salty foods, your 2-person team-up is like going backwards.
Karin says
Or, if you do your research, you may find that it’s because they develop things like osteoporosis, gaping holes in their teeth, and neurological disorders.
Timothy Tang says
That’s because they didn’t know how to eat right and suffer from deficiencies. In another words, they were stupid. If only vegans can suffer from osteoporosis then all the people in the world who suffers from osteoporosis must be vegans? Not true. They did not consume enough calcium, the foods they bought were grown on nutrient-deficient soils that is the norm nowadays, they did not take enough fats to carry the fat-soluble vitamins and they did not take enough B12.
bcflyfisher says
And if you did your research, rather than just calling everyone else “stupid”, you’d know that dietary calcium is rarely the cause of osteoporosis.
Dietary protein enhances absorption, Grain-based carbohydrates work against you by damaging the gut lining.
But Paleo can save you: http://robbwolf.com/2009/03/19/paleo-vs-osteoporosis/
Michael Cohen says
Timothy Tang by “stupid people ” do you mean the 99.999+% of humanity that is not currently vegan? My God !! have we stupid humans been doing it all wrong for the last 21/2 million years?
Does it make any sense to you as to why there are no reproducing vegan cultures? Why one has never been recorded? Veganism is an intellectual construct based on a defective view of nature. It often reflects an extreme bodily negative attitude. One has to ignore or over-ride the 911 calls ones body is sending. It is a form of slow self-righteous starvation.
Timothy Tang says
LOL Appeal to nature fallacy.
Timothy Tang says
cavemen didn’t use computers and you are using one now? Appeal to nature fallacy.
Karin says
That reminds me, Timothy….did you make the computer that you’re on? Because last I checked, commercially produced computers are far from vegan. You’re making this too easy. 🙂
Timothy Tang says
The idea is to minimize suffering to animals as much as possible. If I wanted to minimize all possible suffering to animals I would have killed myself. Maybe that notorious vegan girl from Britain killed herself for such a reason too.
And I choose to buy 2nd hand computers unlike most people who buy new ones.
Karin says
“The idea is to minimize all possible suffering to animals as much as possible.”
Are you implying that you would DIE if you gave up use of that computer?!? Or can you be honest and admit that you just really LIKE to use your computer?
After all, it would have been POSSIBLE for you to just give up computers altogether, right? (As I did when I went vegan, giving up TV, film, cameras, etc.)
And if your second-hand computer had been sold to another bloke while you stayed true to your vegan principles, THAT would have prevented a new computer from being sold.
Michael Cohen says
Timothy Tang “Minimize the suffering” This is exactly the distorted view of nature and the natural world i was talking about. A quality is added to the natural world and its cycles that simply does not belong there, it is “compassion”. Every living form is happily devouring other living forms in order to maintain its very existence. The purpose of an herbivore is to feed a carnivore, and most die in a very natural way, being killed and eaten by a carnivore. The vegan excuse, minimizing animal suffering comes from a disassociation from nature, not from a closeness. You have avoided answering my question so I will answer it for you.There are no naturally occurring vegan cultures because in the long run it is inherently nutrient deficient and anti life. Veganism is often the expression of a bodily and vital negativity. Self deniai is reveled in and justified because it is for a “good cause” Animal rights !!. Veganism is itself a form of animal abuse, it is the abuse of the animals most intimate to us, our bodies. Many many animals are killed growing grains and vegetables. Are their deaths qualitatively better than the deaths of animals used directly for food?
Timothy Tang says
Raising land animals up to 60 billion heads is not natural.
“no naturally occurring vegan cultures”
There are lots of monks in Asia who are vegan. The advancement of the B12 supplement and other minerals such as iodine also allows modern people to go vegan unlike precious generations.
Michael Cohen says
I said reproducing vegan cultures,surviving over generations. The negative effects and nutrient deficiencies will manifest more and more over generations until there will be no reproduction. The only person I know that was raised vegan was one of my teachers, a Taoist monk, raised in a monastery because he was orphaned as a child. He said that he started eating animal food the day he left the monastery. He has had lifelong bone problems. You point to an extremely isolated, miniscule part of society as an example of the universalviabilityof a vegan diet and ridicule me and dismiss my arguments saying that most of the world does not eat this way?
charles grashow says
Monks don’t reproduce
Michael Cohen says
A monastery is not a naturally occurring culture. It is based on intellectual and emotional constructs.No one naturally chooses to eat this way.
Matthew naughton says
Here come the experts, are you all right?
Jake says
Meat-eating contributes more to climate change:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-greenhouse-hamburger/
Maranda says
The world is overpopulated, but that still doesn’t mean you can get B12 from plants. The Vegetarian Myth is a great read on the subject, highly recommend it.
JacquieRN says
True but we don’t need the middle “meat” to get B12.
JacquieRN says
PS: I have read the Vegetarian Myth
Jake says
You can expose mushrooms to sunlight for more vitamin D
“Here is a simple experiment we did one summer afternoon in Kamilche Point, Wash. We compared several forms of organically-grown shiitake mushrooms, which had starting levels of 100 IU/100 grams. We compared the vitamin D levels of three sets of mushrooms, all from the same crop. The first was grown and dried indoors. The second set was dried outdoors in the sunlight with their gills facing down. The third set of mushrooms was dried outdoors in the sunlight with their gills facing upward for full sun exposure. The most vitamin D was found in shiitake dried with gills up that were exposed to sunlight for two days, six hours per day. The vitamin D levels in these mushrooms soared from 100 IU/100 grams to nearly 46,000 IU/100 grams (see chart). Their stems, though, produced very little vitamin D, only about 900 IU. Notably, vitamin D levels dropped on the third day, probably due to overexposure to UV. “
Jake says
FTA:
“Some obscure species of mushrooms can provide large amounts of vitamin D, but these mushrooms are rarely consumed and often difficult to obtain. ”
Wrong! The two grocery stores I frequent both have large amounts of various types of mushrooms all the time. http://mushroominfo.com/all-about-vitamin-d/
JoJo says
My goodness! Such a large amount of dogmatic preaching and not enough listening by the varied range of pretentious vegetarians. We choose our own paths as dynamic and unique individuals. What works for some, and not coincidentally, what works for some family lines, does not work for all as evidenced by the ongoing cracking of the human genome code. There will always be outliers and exceptions and that is what precisely reinforces our uniqueness. Instead of hurling insults and creating the perception that this article promotes the consumption of CAFO meat, just read and digest the comments. Nobody in this forum has given a thumbs up to this inhumane practice and yet the vegetarian brigade repeatedly thumps that bible.
We all choose our path and few can be argued as morally superior to another because, as an active member of any society, our presence and habits have far reaching implications on all creatures, sentient or otherwise. The individual may think more highly of their own beliefs but that is inherently biased. And, when you only surround yourself with like-minded people you tend to only strengthen the vigor of your heel position.
Helen says
Lol, my thoughts pretty much, lots of soap box preaching, riding around on personal hobby horses, certainly some not prepared to accept that we all can have a valid opinion, and that everyone is different. There are some on here determined to shove their views down everyone else’s throats, not the best way to go about things.
What a can of worms has been opened 🙂
Thankyou to Chris, he has certainly been a great help to me, I have bought his book, but also appreciate all the free advice given by him and others
JacquieRN says
Chris, I see many beliefs; myths (and culture) surfacing in this discussion and as an RN having worked in many settings with many people so I am not stranger to this. Therefore, I respect you for your gentle words in this post. However, many are sweeping statements and these could easily be said about animal/dairy eaters and to me don’t make a compelling argument for optimal health choices. Maybe you will do a follow up post on “Why You Should Think Twice About Animal and Dietary Diets”.
For 1 instance:
“Vegan diets, in particular, are almost completely devoid of certain nutrients that are crucial for physiological function.” I would challenge this as not factually backed by meta-analysis and research studies. I could easily agree that some “vegans” may not be eating a healthy balanced diet that could be devoid of some nutrients if prolonged – eating Oreos, coke, potato chips, licorice, etc. If one eats a whole foods, plant-based diet only one supplement B12 (due to our sanitation practices) may be necessary if not eating any B12 fortified foods.
However, the exact same could be said for the majority eating the standard, processed meat, poultry, and dairy diet – just because people eat animal products doesn’t change the fact they too are devoid of many nutrients that a plants provide.
And you actually advocate people to take certain supplements in a link in this post so not much difference on vegans taking for optimal health if needed.
Also, I am puzzled that you would have cited a research paper (12) that addresses “nutrients of concern” but clearly states vegetarians are healthier with lower mortality rates: “As a result of these factors, vegetarians typically have lower body mass index, serum total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, and blood pressure; reduced rates of death from ischemic heart disease; and decreased incidence of hypertension, stroke, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers than do non-vegetarians.”
Lastly, and most curious – you opened by saying: “Some are compelled by the environmental impact of confinement animal feeding operations (CAFO). Others are guided by ethical concerns or religious reasons. I respect these reasons and appreciate anyone who thinks deeply about the social and spiritual impact of their food choices—even if my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer. “
You didn’t address how your social, spiritual, ethical, environmental impacts, etc. exploration lead you to a “different answer” – only the same belief that eating animal products = is to eat optimally. Change has to happen at the personal level to impact a global system that is no longer sustainable, if for no other reason than we should be good ancestors or there will be no food:
“In every deliberation, we must consider the impact on the seventh generation… even if it requires having skin as thick as the bark of a pine.” (Iroquois Law)
John Richards says
Maybe you missed it but Chris has repeatedly stated that some of the anti-meat conclusions in research papers (12) do not distinguish between eating highly processed meats such as hot dogs and pepperoni versus eating only grass-fed beef. Then there are also unaccounted-for confounders such as meat eaters more frequently engaging in unhealthy behaviors including smoking and alcohol consumption.
Stipetic says
Speaking of the Iroquois, which my great-grandmother was:
Meat was also a large part of the Iroquois diet, it provided them strength and allowed them to endure the harsh winters.The men were counted on to bring the tribe its meat.The men hunted a vast range of animals using bows and arrows to kill black bear, elk, deer, rabbits, and wolves. They trapped wild turkey, ducks and other birds. They also hunted turtles for their meat and shells. Like many indigenous groups the Iroquois did not waste any part of an animal. Often bones and other unwanted parts were made into tools, spoons, knives and other household items. Whatever the men brought back from the hunt was cooked by the women and shared among the whole village.
OnTheFence says
Oh yes, the Native peoples lived off the land and used all the tools they could to survive as did all our ancestors. Its just that the masses don’t live that way today. We need to keep evolving. Meat was used for most generations (and few populations today) when and where it could be found hunted down – which involved miles of walking and or running – for the masses we don’t hunt, run walk for miles, work to clean the meat and work to fashion tools. We drive to the store, hunt at the meat, fish, poultry counter. I am referencing populations not individuals – because we do have a very small number of people able to get true wild animals for food. I just don’t think we humans stopped evolving – no longer need wisdom teeth (jaw is getting smaller) the planet needs us to do so for generations coming – some thing has to change in how we are destroying our mother earth. PS: I don’t want to go back – I like modern conveniences, sutures, antibiotics, c-sections (rather that die in childbirth, etc.)
Christopher says
Modern conveniences and ancestral eating do not need to be in opposition. As a species we benefit from improvements to medicine but we do not benefit from so-called improvements in food, particularly industrial processing.
As for our jaws getting smaller, evolution may or may not be in play. There are theories that diminishment due to improper nutrition may be a factor as well.
Stipetic says
In the previous post, OnTheFence, one of the vegan flock mentioned an Iroquois quote to support her position. Well, I’m using the same quote to support mine as I am only 3 generations removed from my great grandmother, and so it appears the Iroquois way should be maintained for at least four more generations; it is a way of eating that is still relevant as the time elapse is not enough time to have evolved much as a species. So, eating plentiful meat (from the entire carcass) seems like something I am optimally designed for. And so are you, if you open your mind to it. Whether I kill my own cute-faced prey is irrelevant as I don’t find this immoral, certainly no more than a lion devouring a wilderbeast while it is still alive. Nor is it relevant that I’m at a computer now or that I live in a large city, etc. I eat for health; animal products are exquisitely nutritious and healthy.
Erica Martell says
This is how I hear these conversations breaking down: On one side “I’m tired of hearing….” “I want a belly full of bacon.” On the other side the arguments are always about the whole, never about the individual. In other words people who eat vegan diets are expressing here they do so after considering the whole, or others – even if they went back to meat at some point. People who are defensive about meat, or say they just like it are usually defending their individual interest. Be all that as it may, the way we are living is not-sustainable. Let’s hope there’s still time to change course, but it will require the willingness to change, and not stubborn self-interest. Some people feel it’s already too late, but whatever people feel, we’re on the path…
FrankG says
Well you are wrong Erica…
I HAVE considered the “whole” and am convinced (as I already stated in earlier comments) that the only sustainable way to feed the world and save the ecosystem which sustains us, is with small, local farms, including the rearing of livestock.
OnTheFence says
Hi FrankG, how are you working toward this end? Are you able to farm or buy only directly from farms? How will small local farms provide enough of the animal products to feed the masses? I don’t have answers – only that it appears the buy decreasing consumption (which is healthy) supple and demand will slowly cause a correction.
OnTheFence says
oops typos: only that it appears that by decreasing consumption (which is healthy) supply and demand will slowly cause a correction.
Whisper Horse says
I’d also like to bring up results of the curing effect of cancer, heart disease, and diabetes by many many people now who have adopted a whole foods plant based vegan diet. If we were supposed to eat meat, cheese, and eggs, then why are all these people curing our top killing diseases by removing these animal products completely from their diets. Also, the physiology of our own bodies dictates that we do best with minimal to no acidic foods, our physiological system is not made for processing acidic foods and prefers to be on the alkaline side 7.5 so this bring up the truth about all and every animal product that exists, they are all highly acidic! An acidic body gives cancer a place to thrive because an acidic body has more inflammation and decreased circulation. Cancer thrives where there is decreased circulation, and it was shown in 1907 that cancer dies in an alkaline environment. Another study that was done, in fact the largest and most long term study on human nutrition that took over fifty years to complete The China Study that no one has yet been able to debunk because they can not debunk that big of a study. It not only took many doctors and medical scientists but because of the amount of time and effort put into that study it was reviewed and the results were astounding. Dairy is one of the largest cancer promoters that exists today, even more so than tobacco.
FrankG says
China Study “debunked”…
http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/
bcflyfisher says
China Study? *sigh*
Frank already answered that one. Welcome to 4 years ago!
Want a long term study? Try Framingham.
Next you’ll learn that meat doesn’t cause cancer, saturated fat and dietary cholesterol don’t cause heart disease, heart healthy whole grains are anything but, that “vegetable oils” are one of the worst things we ever invented, and that sugar is a wee bit of a problem.
chelsea says
No. Just no. I know that you’ve given up your morals to start eating meat again and this is your excuse, but no. Really try to come up with something better. Nutritionfacts.org is a great place to start. Good luck.
FrankG says
How dare you judge others by your own “moral” standards!?!
I do not see eating meat as in any way amoral or immoral.
Get off your high horse and if you want to see respect for all life you might try starting with your own species.
bcflyfisher says
Do meat eaters troll veg*an websites the way you’re doing here? You’re here strictly to preach your own misguided agenda.
Yet I never see the reverse happening.
Either way, believe whatever you want but don’t wander into someone else’s playground and start dictating the rules.
Or, as Eddie Murphy said, “it’s my house, and if you don’t like it……”
OnTheFence says
Actually, since i am on the fence I visit different sites/conversations and of course, then do my own research.
Paleo/meat-eaters on numerous on the veg sites and most are not at all kind! Even here one of the “meat men” slammed all veg women – maybe they are “witchy” not due to food but they have to work with him – sorry as a woman I couldn’t resist that one.
That is why this topic is not a battle of research – but from what i see and for me a battle of the heart. I am leaning a bit – the arguments on both sides are getting old. I think the amount of research and clinical outcomes on the mostly plants, rare meat or vegan side is greater and more convincing. Sustainability aspects = veggie. Animal CAFOs for those of us who don’t have farms or farmers near us = veg.
Personal stories have too many variables – health vegans and healthy meat eaters – but then some % smokers live long healthy lives – so I look at decreasing risk.
Deane Alban says
I was a vegetarian for over 20 (!) years so I speak from experience. While this diet suited me just fine for several years (a good clean out?) it was not healthy for me in the long haul. My thyroid was shot (too much soy?) and I was thin but low in muscle. During this period my first husband developed severe heart disease (he followed a low fat vegetarian diet) – needed 4 bypasses and heart valve replacement surgery. He survived only a year after surgery and was diagnosed with “failure to thrive”. I believe years of too little protein damage his heart ( a muscle) and left him without the resources to recover.
I like to remind people who are on strict diets not to get too cocky about it. The diet you follow today may well NOT be the same one you follow years from now. You may find yourself “eating crow”. I used to teach macrobiotic cooking classes. I would NEVER thought I’d trade my tofu for a steak.
Sharon says
If you have thyroid issues it could meant you were deficient in iodine. There are fat-soluble vitamins that need fats to be transported within the body. Too much high GI carbs in one setting can lead to inflammation of the blood vessels and glycation, which both can leave to heart disease. Omega 3 fatty acids has been found to lessen heart disease. Olive oil has been found to damage the endothelium(blood vessels) that can worsen heart disease.
Sylvia RN MSN NP-C says
Great article Chris! Thank you for sharing! After trying a vegan diet in college that left me feeling tired and sick I realized that it is NOT the way to go! I’m follow the Weston A Price/Paleo diet now today, in better health than ever before, as well as lean & muscular! 🙂
JacquieRN says
Hi Sylvia, as an RN MBA myself I am wondering what vegan diet you were eating in college that made you “jump” to Price? I had looked at several of the Price research articles and commentary – so many points are unscientific and find mythical – for instance: “…the diet of modern American women is so appalling, and their preparation for successful breastfeeding so lacking, that their breast milk provides no better nourishment for their infants than factory-made formula.”
High protein diets will help short term for
“lean” but can’t be healthfully sustained long term – just one paper with multiple research cited as example: http://www.pcrm.org/pdfs/health/High-Protein-Diets.pdf
Joe says
Eat meat and prosper. End of story…
Sybil says
I have been on a vegetarian diet for the majority of 40 years. My annual blood work does not find me lacking in any of the nutritional elements discussed in your article. Like most people, I do take supplements….
But the MOST important reason to be vegetarian/vegan is the cruelty of factory farming and the murder of cogent, sensitive animals.
Other important reasons:
…the enormous cost to our planet to raise animals for food. They eat more grain etc per pound than it would take to sustain hungry humans.
…destruction of the rainforests to make room for cattle grazing.
Our planet is in serious ecological difficulty, part of which can be offset with a vegetarian/vegan diet.
Stop letting your taste buds dictate your conscience.
John Richards says
What about the fact that in the wild these “sensitive cogent” animals tend to eat each other, ripping bodies apart without regard to humaneness?
And what about all that forest land being changed to more and more intensively farmed crop fields, causing run-off of fertilizers and pesticides as well as depletion of essential micronutrients and microorganisms from the soil?
I’m tired of vegans and vegetarians assuming this holier than thou attitude.
Whisper Horse says
Actually the rain forests are being ripped apart for growing more feed for cattle and for raising “grass fed” cow flesh. A larger amount of green house gasses are caused by cattle than all of the vehicles on the planet put together. The run off of feces creating massive acres of dead zones. The number one destroyer of our planet is animal agriculture.
FrankG says
It’s like someone opens a tap and out pours all the exact same vegetarian/vegan verbal diarrhea… dressed up as pseudoscience, or social, or moral commentary with the (probably sincere but hopelessly misinformed) devotees mindlessly repeating what they have read, or been told by other vega*tarians… without even pausing to question any of it, or bothering to read earlier comments where many of these points have already been addressed. What a monumental waste of everyone’s time.
Audrey says
I like what Frank said and Erica too…even though they might seem somewhat contradictory.
I’ve made the decision based on my own experiences, medical advice, etc. to eat some meat. But to really reduce the amount (s) I was eating previously. I didn’t feel good when I tried to be a vegetarian in the past and somehow I gained weight. I probably craved carbs. Now, I’m eating no grain, no sugar, no junk foods, small amounts of animal products, lots of vegetables…..just doing the best I can. I think that is all anyone can do. And I see my doctors regularly and have my vitamins tested and so forth.
But I have seen those documentaries about animal cruelty. The things Erica mentioned. It is horrid.
Even though I still eat some meat, I feel like the excessive consumption and demand for meat likely helped to cause such atrocious behaviors.mGreed, high demand, competition, lack of humane and appropriate regulations, etc.
IF you can accept people see things differently and move forward….What can the general population do, both vegans and meat eaters, to help protest these in-humane behaviors in this industry? Is there any hope for change?
Michael says
The idea that vegetables are nutrient dense is a bit of a myth. Dr Matt Lalonde offers an explanation toward the end of his lecture on nutrient density. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwbY12qZcF4
John Richards says
You mention bacon as being a processed meat, in the same category as hot dogs. Just why is bacon bad, and is the same true for uncured bacon?
Erica Martell says
I think we are just obligated to move towards awareness and compassion, away from defensiveness and self-involvement. To become more and more aware of the whole. I don’t know why we’re so separated from the natural world – the only beings that move in disharmony. Kind of makes me feel Adam and the apple came from someplace… To come up with a 360 degree understanding of what we choose and why. It doesn’t matter if the world is over or if it makes a difference or if it’s too late.
While we are alive we have to figure out what our purpose is and how we are going to play our cards. Most people who experience suffering or the suffering of others have an experience of awakening that changes their behavior towards compassion. The only thing anyone can ask of anyone else is to be open to exposing themselves to new information and to become mindful of their daily choices.
For me – although I’d been a pescatarian for many years once, recently I’d been happily eating a little meat for over 25 years, not thinking anything about it. I recently completed health coach certification at The Institute for Integrative Nutrition, which was a great intro. Broccoli, good, kale, good… beef. hmmm.. There was only one lecture during the whole year on factory farming, by an ex-rancher, but it stayed with me. Then I met a man sitting in Central Park who owns a company that provides alot of beef to Whole Foods and he said to me “I’d never eat that stuff.” Just another piece of the puzzle that stayed in my mind. Then I got on Facebook for the first time a few months ago and started following dog rescues and somehow the cows and pigs and chickens got in there as well, and I began to be offered the opportunity to see things I had never seen – dogs boiled alive, dogs baked alive into flat pancakes, cows hacked apart while still not quite dead, baby chicks being dumped into a macerator by the thousands, thousands of livestock dieing on these boats of hell from Australia to the Middle East for what I call fetish slaughter…. I thought it might challenge my sanity, but I also thought I could not make believe it didn’t exist. So then what? I don’t grow my own chickens in the backyard, I don’t have a cow to milk. I don’t want anyone doing that violence in my name. Frankly I feel the people who are forced to do that in order to make a living are experiencing not much less violence than the animals they kill and it makes them brutal. That’s where I am now. I take everything into account and I try to make each decision mindfully and in the present moment.. I struggle but more often than not I am making them to come out on the side of all and not only my own interest.
FrankG says
First paragraph of this blog post…
“There are many reasons why people choose to go vegetarian or vegan. Some are compelled by the environmental impact of confinement animal feeding operations (CAFO). Others are guided by ethical concerns or religious reasons. I respect these reasons and appreciate anyone who thinks deeply about the social and spiritual impact of their food choices—even if my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer.”
I agree with Chris… my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer.
We are each of us allowed to choose what we eat, where it comes from and how we get it, just forget the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, preachy stuff, guilt trips, pseudo-science etc.. to try and convince others that your way is the only way.
chelsea says
Preachy stuff? You mean like the suffering and death of billions of animals? That’s not preachy stuff that’s compassion. Try to get over all of this other b.s.
FrankG says
Preachy stuff like you trying to force your world-view down my throat… I’m not the one bothered by your personal choices or what you eat and yet you seem overly bothered about mine
I respect your choices to do as you please but please don’t dress it up as anything else in order to rationalise your choices.
John Richards says
It’s preachy because you try to persuade by emotion rather than by science, and you fail to acknowledge that
a) all living things have to die, and
b) in the wild, many animals eat each other, often killing in very brutal ways.
David says
To those that disagree with this article, would you please get a blood test for B12, calcium, iron, zinc, EPA & DHA, vitamin A & D, and post your results here? And repeat yearly, since for some it takes years for deficiencies to develop. Would you be willing to do that?
David says
One more point, make sure the B12 test is a test for holotranscobalamin.
http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency
Stephen Albers says
David makes a point that I forgot to include in my earlier post.
Nutrients deficiencies are not a daily, weekly, or even monthly concern. Fasting regimens of up to 40 days where NO nutrients are consumed are routinely administered to patients without deficiency symptoms occurring because the body stores nutrients. Therefore a personal nutritional strategy should have a long term horizon. That is why nutrient testing is so valuable. It confirms what past absorption has been for whatever diet the individual has actually consumed for an extended period. Everyone who is concerned about nutritional adequacy should adopt the motto: Test, don’t guess.” Test results will eliminate the uncertainty by disclosing the truth in a clear easily understood form that can be the solid basis for future nutrition goals.
Chris H says
It’s an objectively correct article, but it’s also biased and full of generalizations. It’s very easy to write a blog post which ignores facts that do not support your argument. If I were to make as many generalizations regarding people with omnivorous diets as this acupuncturist has about people with vegan diets, I could write a lengthy and objectively correct article about why people with those unhealthy eating habits are more likely to suffer from afflictions such as Alzheimer’s disease, diabetes, hypertension, etc…
Susan says
I can’t speak for anyone but myself but after 32 years of being a strict low fat vegetarian I found myself with a B12 and B1 deficiency and osteoporosis. For over 4 years I have reversed all of these problems (plus a lot of digestive problems) by eating a diet of pastured, organic, grass finished and wild caught sources of animal protein, a LOT more vegetables and a lot of unprocessed fats (ghee, coconut and animal fats). I also don’t worry about gaining weight anymore. I found the change hard and a little heartbreaking at first but as long as I am careful to find local, humane sources of meat, I’m now okay with this. I don’t consume mass quantities, just high quality and I know I was meant to be an omnivore.
Erica Martell says
We get most of our information about nutrition from the latest popular books, which often make their writers successful, and speak to different audiences depending on who the author feels is his target market. The Paleo Code written by Rob Wolf was one of those, sort of a modern Atkins, South Beach. Considering they barely teach nutrition at Harvard medical school it’s sort of a “new” science for most people. If you are eating burgers and donuts, Paleo would be an extension of your knowledge and your capacity to handle your own choices about your health. However, everything is on a continuum, and Paleo was an idea, not an answer, which is something Chris Kresser addressed in his book The Paleo Code, which said you should use the information as a tool for yourself, not as dogma.
It’s moved us further down the line in terms of understanding and self-care. Someone here pointed out that paleo in 2014 is not paleo in 2008.
Two things though – I observe that people love to argue about this stuff on the internet, however I have no doubt that many people who can quote chapter and verse on taurine, choline and other nutritional minutiae are also sitting behind their screens eating donuts. Internet research is not the same as spending alot of time calibrating what you actually eat. Two, there is a continuum – what I see meat eaters talking about here is themselves – optimizing their own enjoyment, and down the continuum – their own health. What I hear vegetarians and vegans talking about is the “whole” which includes animal welfare and the earth. In this gap there seems to be no communication.
Vegans are saying “put on the lens that shows you that our entire lives are deeply entwined with the violence that is done to animals” in the same way that early abolitionists were committed to rejiggering reality until all people saw through the lens that slavery was not just this or that but was incompatible with and central to living a just life on any level. You can imagine the conversations then – when slavery was something everyone had grown up with and took for granted as the way things were, even most slaves. So this is the palette that vegans are working with.
I suggest if you want to eat meat you at least get on Facebook or the internet and take a look at the violence inflicted on cows, pigs and chickens. I don’t think you can necessarily get it all at once. I myself refuse to expose myself to much of it, especially the videos, and the honorable alternative, I decided, was that if I could not watch, I should not eat it. I’m not a vegan, yet. I’m making changes every day, because it involves my clothing and feeding my dog, as well as adjusting those things that have supported me through stressful times, like half and half in coffee. My thought about this is not to replace them with vegan alternatives, like soymilk in coffee, or veggie burgers and fake bacon, but to take a completely new look at what’s out there. Maybe I’ll try espresso instead and of coffee with half and half….much of the world chooses it. I’ll look into Indian food, Thai food, raw food, etc. etc. It’s the beginning of paying close attention, and if I need to take a supplement or two, I’ll figure it out. In these arguments remember that much of the world is starving and and Albert Schweitzer said “Give a thought to the suffering from which you so carefully protect yourself.” (slight misquote from memory).
FrankG says
Firstly I do NOT get my “information about nutrition from the latest popular books”, nor am I sitting here “eating donuts”.
But most importantly I am getting more than a little sick of the sanctimonious preaching and attempts at guilt by those opposed to animal cruelty. Read my comments… I am ALSO against animal cruelty, factory-farming, mono-cultures and all the other ills of our modern food-supply chain. It is disrespectful, damaging to our health and that of our ecosystem… and it is NOT sustainable.
I am not a hypocrite: I have before and would again, kill and prepare my own meat.. face to face. No hiding behind anonymous, boneless, skinless, shrink-wrapped protein patties. It is not something I relish, look forward to, or enjoy
but it is something that can be done with dignity and respect for all life… including humans.
Local, sustainable farms COULD feed the world, but if they can’t, it would be because we have already over-reached ourselves as a species, with our throw-away attitude to finite resources such as fossil fuels.
JacquieRN says
Hi Erica, if you have not read the following book yet, I think you might find it interesting: Why we Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows by Melanie Joy, PhD Ed.M. (Harvard-educated psychologist, professor of psychology and sociology at the University of Massachusetts Boston)
“We don’t see meat eating as we do vegetarianism – as a choice, based on a set of assumptions about animals, our world and ourselves. Rather, we see it as a given, the “natural” thing to do. We eat animals without thinking about what we are doing and why, because the belief system that underlies this behavior is invisible.”
FrankG says
No “invisible belief system” here, it is a sane, rational, well-researched and well-thought out conviction about what is best for me, best for my family and best for the planet.
Karin says
Well, I was a vegan for many years before I became deeply thoughtful about the reality of human life on earth. And I’ve seen all of those videos. I actually met my husband interning at Farm Sanctuary, in Ithaca, New York. And I found it very interesting that the same people who were criticizing meat eaters for not killing the animals themselves chose to feed their resident cat with industrially produced animal-based cat food! Yes, they did offer the cat a vegetarian option, (which the cat absolutely refused to eat). But they also decided that they had no choice but to offer the cat meat. They could have carefully killed the resident chickens on the cat’s behalf, and did it in the most humane way possible, but of course they chose not to. Ask almost any vegan cat owner what he/she feeds his/her cats. Passing the buck is not exclusive to omnivorous humans.
By the way: Do you honestly believe that transporting your coffee thousands of miles from its source is a benign process? How many animals would you estimate are killed in the act of providing you with this little pleasure?
prema says
I am a vegetarian though I will not go into the details of why I chose to do so. However I take all the supplements that you describe here and if one is concerned about nutrition they would know all of this information. I would like to add something…Even meat eaters today are deficient in B12 and other of the nutrients you suggest. Meat of any kind today is full of the fear of the animals as we slaughter them in disgustingly inhumane ways. Do you really want to eat that. Please our animals are not fed a healthy diet so even if eaten they do not give the nourishment they would have 100 or more years ago…..I think a better approach to telling people what we need to make sure is part of our diet is not to compare vegetarianism to meat eating cannibals but to understand that there is hardly any nutrition in any of the food we eat and that certain supplements must be taken….
Peace for all beings….
Ann says
Thank you Rudy. I have seen some of those and later will look at more of what you posted. I have also watched some of the documentaries out about vegan eating. And I have read a few of the McDougall books.
I have greatly reduced my animal product consumption, keep my portions small, stopped sugar and grains and greatly increased my vegetables.
I have had low B12 before, so that is on my mind. It is fine now…even a little high by some reports.
For now, I am ok with eating small portions of animal products now and again. There is a food writer by the last name if Pollan (I think that is the spelling) who has done a nice amount of research on this topic and this is what his final conclusion is about the subject. Eat food…mostly plants…or something very similar to this comment.
I believe he recommends good quality animal products about twice a week, small portions, for their potential benefits. And making vegetables your mainstay.
This is where I am leaning. I suppose it is a middle ground, but I notice I feel good eating this way and my tests are improving.
But, I do read a lot on the subject; including vegetarian/vegan literature. I will continue to do this, personally monitor how I feel, and continue to have myself checked out thoroughly by doctors including traditional docs and functional physicians.
Rudy Steffen says
You should think twice before posting misinformation:
Where health is concerned, a plant-exclusive diet is viable for practically everyone.
*Note* The term ‘vegetarian,’ as used by some of these organizations, does not distinct itself from a 100% plant-exclusive diet, lacto-ovo vegetarian, pescatarian, etc. It encompasses all plant-based diets.
1) The Mayo Clinic: the first and largest integrated not-for-profit medical group practice in the world, employing more than 3,800 physicians and scientists and 50,900 allied health staff. It spends $500 million dollars on research a year.
“A well-planned vegetarian diet can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.”
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vegetarian-diet/HQ01596
2) The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: the world’s largest organization of food and nutrition professionals. The Academy is committed to improving the nation’s health and advancing the profession of dietetics through research, education and advocacy.
“… [vegetarian diets] are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases…are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.”
http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357
3) Dietitians of Canada (DC): is the national professional association for dietitians, representing almost 6000 members at the local, provincial and national levels. DC is one of the largest organizations of dietetic professionals in the world.
“A vegan eating pattern has many potential health benefits. They include lower rates of obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer. Other benefits include lower blood cholesterol levels and a lower risk for gallstones and intestinal problems.”
http://www.dietitians.ca/Nutrition-Resources-A-Z/Factsheets/Vegetarian/Eating-Guidelines-for-Vegans.aspx
4) The British National Health Service (NHS): is the largest and the oldest single-payer healthcare system in the world. It provides the majority of healthcare in England.
“With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.”
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets.aspx
5) The British Nutrition Foundation (BNF): team of nutrition scientists that conducts academic reviews of published research on issues of diet and public health. Aims to to advance the education of the public, and those involved in the training and education of others, in nutrition; and to advance the study of and research into nutrition for the public benefit, and to disseminate and publish the useful results of such research.
“A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate…”
“Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.”
http://www.nutrition.org.uk/publications/briefingpapers/vegetarian-nutrition
6) The Dietitians Association of Australia (DAA): is the peak body of 5,100 dietetic and nutrition professionals providing strategic leadership in food and nutrition through empowerment, advocacy, education, accreditation and communication.
“…with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet.”
http://daa.asn.au/for-the-public/smart-eating-for-you/nutrition-a-z/vegan-diets/
7) The Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion (CNPP): a branch of the USDA that aims to improve the nutrition and well-being of Americans by focusing on advancing and promoting dietary guidance for all Americans, and conducting applied research and analysis in nutrition and consumer economics.
“Vegetarian diets can meet all the recommendations for nutrients.”
http://www.choosemyplate.gov/healthy-eating-tips/tips-for-vegetarian.html
8) The National Institutes of Health (NIH): comprised of 27 separate institutes and centers, and with an annual spending of around $26 billion, NIH is the is the primary agency of the United States government responsible for biomedical and health-related research.
“There is no single type of vegetarian diet…People who follow vegetarian diets can get all the nutrients they need.”
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/vegetariandiet.html
9) American Heart Association (AHA): with 22.5 million volunteers and 2,700 employees, AHA is the nation’s oldest, largest voluntary organization devoted to fighting cardiovascular diseases and stroke.
“Many studies have shown that vegetarians seem to have a lower risk of obesity, coronary heart disease (which causes heart attack), high blood pressure, diabetes mellitus and some forms of cancer.”
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/NutritionCenter/Vegetarian-Diets_UCM_306032_Article.jsp
10) Heart and Stroke Foundation (HSF): having invested over $1.35 billion in heart and stroke research, HSF is one of Canada’s largest and most effective health charities.
“Vegetarian diets can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits. Vegetarian diets often have lower levels of total fat, saturated fat and cholesterol than many meat-based diets, and higher intakes of fibre, magnesium, potassium, folate and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E. Vegetarian diets may lead to lower blood pressure, improved cholesterol levels, healthier weight and less incidence of Type 2 diabetes, all of which can reduce the risk of heart disease and stroke.”
http://www.heartandstroke.com/site/c.ikIQLcMWJtE/b.3484249/k.2F6C/Healthy_living__Vegetarian_diets.htm
11) American Cancer Society (ACS): with over 3,400 local offices, and raising $934 million in 2012, this 100 year old society works to save lives and create a world with less cancer.
“Some studies have linked vegetarian diets to lower risk for heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity, and certain types of cancer, such as colon cancer. A strictly vegetarian diet must be properly planned to be sure it provides all the required nutrients.”
http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/dietandnutrition/vegetarianism
12) Harvard School of Public Health: is one of the most selective and prestigious public health schools in the world with half of the students already holding a medical doctorate.
“With a little planning, a balanced and varied vegetarian diet can meet the nutrient needs of nearly everyone.”
http://www.dining.harvard.edu/vegvgn
13) American Diabetes Association (ADA): with 90 local offices across the US, the ADA utilizes 73% of its $34.6 million in fund raising (2012) to support research and projects concerning diabetes.
“A vegetarian diet is a healthy option, even if you have diabetes. Research supports that following this type of diet can help prevent and manage diabetes. In fact, research on vegan diets has found that carbohydrate and calorie restrictions were not necessary and still promoted weight loss and lowered participants’ A1C.”
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/planning-meals/meal-planning-for-vegetarians/
14) The Perelman School of Medicine (Penn Med): a medical school ranked second for research in 2012.
“A well-planned vegetarian diet can give you good nutrition. A vegetarian diet often helps you have better health. Eating a vegetarian diet can help you: [r]educe your chance of obesity; [r]educe your risk of heart disease; [l]ower your blood pressure; [l]ower your risk of type 2 diabetes.”
http://www.pennmedicine.org/encyclopedia/em_DisplayArticle.aspx?gcid=002465&ptid=1
15) Cleveland Clinic: is regarded as one of the top hospital in the United States. With around 1,700 staff physicians representing 120 medical specialties, this hospital helps patients not only from all 50 states, but from more than 100 other nations.
“There really are no disadvantages to a herbivorous diet! A plant-based diet has many health benefits, including lowering the risk for heart disease, hypertension, Type 2 diabetes, and cancer. It can also help lower cholesterol and blood pressure levels, plus maintain weight and bone health.”
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/nutrition/food-choices/understanding-vegetarianism.aspx
16) New York Presbyterian Hospital: is an esteemed university hospital system affiliated with two Ivy League medical schools. It is the largest not-for-profit hospital in the US.
“People who follow a vegetarian diet are relatively healthier than those who don’t. Vegetarians tend to have a lower incidence of obesity and fewer chronic health problems, including some cancers, heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes.”
http://nyp.org/wellness/showDocument.php?contentTypeId=1&contentId=1876&heading=Vegetarian+Diets%3A+The+Myths+vs.+Facts
17) University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC): with 4,200 licensed beds and 400 outpatient sites, UPMC is one of the largest medical centers in the world.
“A well-planned vegetarian diet can give you good nutrition. A vegetarian diet often helps you have better health.”
http://www.upmc.com/healthlibrary/Pages/ADAM.aspxGenContentId=002465&ProjectId=1&ProductId=1
18) The Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center (UCLA): having research centers covering nearly all major specialties of medicine, UCLA is considered on of the top three hospitals in the US. This hospital has been ranked in the top twenty in 15 of the 16 medical specialties ranked in the US News ranking.
“Some of the health benefits of a vegetarian diet may include: [d]ecreased blood cholesterol levels;
and blood pressure; [l]ower incidence of heart disease, some forms of cancer, and digestive disorders like constipation and diverticula disease; [l]ower incidence of obesity and some forms of diabetes.”
http://www.dining.ucla.edu/housing_site/dining/SNAC_pdf/Vegetarianism.pdf
19) Kaiser Permanente: the largest managed care organization in the United States, published an article supporting the adoption of a plant-based diet earlier this spring.
“Healthy eating may be best achieved with a plant-based diet, which we define as a regimen that encourages whole, plant-based foods and discourages meats, dairy products, and eggs as well as all refined and processed foods. Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity.”
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2013/spring/5117-nutrition.html
*** A follow up written by Dr. John McDougall and his son, Dr. Craig McDougall concerning Kaiser Permanente’s warning about potential nutrient deficiencies:
“In our experience of treating more than 5000 patients with a low-fat, whole foods, plant-based (vegan) diet, with follow-up lasting as long as 28 years, we have not seen any deficiencies of protein, iron, calcium, or essential fatty acids.”
http://www.thepermanentejournal.org/…/fall/5552-diet.html
—————————–
Special thanks to Anders Branderuds:
http://bloganders.blogspot.no/2013/08/humans-can-live-and-thrive-on-healthy.html
Organization summaries provided by Wikipedia and said group’s website
http://www.wikipedia.org/
FrankG says
“*Note* The term ‘vegetarian,’ as used by some of these organizations, does not distinct itself from a 100% plant-exclusive diet, lacto-ovo vegetarian, pescatarian, etc. It encompasses all plant-based diets.”
Are you implying that when the research shows a lacto-ovo vegetarian or pescatarian diet can be healthful (to which I’d agree.. it can be, if carefully thought through) they might as well be saying the same for a vegan or 100% plant-exclusive diet?
If that is your contention, then I strongly disagree.
Rudy Steffen says
FrankG,
I encourage you to examine the sources. You will understand the highlight in question better. Before buttressing the viability of a plant-exclusive, or plant-based, diet, the organizations define exactly of what a “vegetarian” diet consists.
As for your deduction, I agree. That would not be logical to expand a plant-exclusive diet beyond plants. To your assertion that a diet consisting of animal products can be healthful, I also agree. It, an omnivorous diet, however, is not moral. That is where the debate concerning veganism rests. These smoke-screens of articles only delay the inevitable.
Back to nutrition. Here is a study that gauges healthfulness between dietary ranges of “vegetarianism:”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/sns-201401210000–tms–premhnstr–k-k20140122-20140122,0,3834968.story
FrankG says
A vegan diet certainly falls into the set known as “vegetarian” but a vegetarian diet does not necessarily mean vegan… this is misleading at best and disingenuous at worst
Speaking of which.. the PCRM… a vegan-promoting organization that pretends not to be.. why the need for deception? Why hide if they are confident in the truth? I don’t trust this kind of behaviour.
Rudy Steffen says
FrankG,
It seems like you ran out of information as you have fallen back to slander and ad hominem.
You could not logically deduce that some of the most prestigious medical facilities and organizations in the world, with a combined research budget of 30 billion+ mind you, would make the mistake of devoting a page to vegetarianism, mention “veganism” and not decipher between them when addressing their support. Secondly, you did not address the information provided by PCRM you instead tried to defame the non-profit.
Sorry friend, but I do not debate with people who turn to such tactics. It is a waste of energy.
FrankG says
“Friend”??? I hardly think so… I don”t even know you, let alone have much trust or respect for you, based on just these few interchanges.
“Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine”… what a moniker.. sounds like an upstanding group of MDs right?!? But they are a vegan front organisation who try to obscure that fact… why?
Why not “Vegan Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine”???
Is that important to know?
Do you think they provide unbiased advice and research on diet related health issues?
One may as well ask the Third Reich for unbiased advice on race-relations!
John Richards says
For starters, that quote from the Mayo Clinic article is disingenuous to say the least. If you bother to read the details you’ll find that it admits:
“…because conversion of plant-based omega-3 to the types used by humans is inefficient, you may want to consider fortified products or supplements, or both.”
And,
“Vitamin B-12 deficiency may go undetected in people who eat a vegan diet. This is because the vegan diet is rich in a vitamin called folate, which may mask deficiency in vitamin B-12 until severe problems occur. For this reason, it’s important for vegans to consider vitamin supplements, vitamin-enriched cereals and fortified soy products.”
As they say, the devil is in the details.
Rudy Steffen says
So…. supplement? No one has to die.
The animals that people eat most certainly supplement. As in 90% of the B12 production load, supplement.
http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30
Food for thought:
“There is no evidence of adverse effects on health or cognitive function with lower DHA intake in vegetarians.”
http://www.plefa.com/article/S0952-3278%2809%2900086-6/abstract
Or… you can simply eat a whole foods, plant-exclusive diet and add two tablespoons of flaxseed just to be safe.
David says
Rudy,
The part about vegan diets being appropriate for those in lactation, infancy and childhood is the point where the organizations lose all credibility.
John McDonell says
Rudy, That certainly is one impressive list! I’m wondering just how this fits with vegan … non-dairy; non-fish; likely non-sea-creatures like krill; lobsters; oysters, etc …. vs vegetarianism, fits as wholesome? Then there is the difficulty posed because of human breast milk/colostrum. Do you think this non-vegan food ethically can be fed to human newborns? Is a properly designed vegan diet ever a good choice for human children? {I wonder if any of these has considered such a stance for their own offspring} … or has anyone refuted the extra needs of a cold climate dwellers for things like vitamin D3, K2, omega-3 oil, and … . You will find people (and organizations) based-in/living-in California or Hawaii making silly pronouncements about the merits of veganism but I absolutely defy any plant to live long enough to be food-source for humans in cold climates. We sentient-beings starve/go-hungry while plants die.
Rudy Steffen says
John M.
I appreciate your curiosity. As I was telling FrankG, the institutions / organizations put a plant-exclusive diet underneath the heading of ‘vegetarian diet.’ For efficiency purpose, I suppose, they wanted to encapsulate the full spectrum of plant-based with a single word.
As many of the sources that I provide state, a plant-exclusive diet is viable for all stages of life. With this in mind, it becomes transparent that the consumption of animal products in all cases save self-defense / preservation is immoral.
Vitamins D3 and K2 can be found in plant options (interestingly enough, the most abundant source of K2 is natto, a fermented soy dish).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10874601
http://tinyurl.com/lmoepx2
http://tinyurl.com/lb6qz9h
Omega-3 is even easier: two tables spoons of ground flaxseed. I did the calculations one day, and I believe it costs 17 cents a day to reach the recommended dose without considering the other vasts amount of omega 3 that one derives from other whole plant foods.
One may want to focus on certain nutrients during pregnancy and lactation, however, these nutrients can easily be derived from plant sources. The Physician Committee of Responsible Medicine (PCRM) has put out the following information:
http://pcrm.org/health/diets/ffl/newsletter/q-is-it-safe-to-be-on-a-vegan-diet-while-pregnant
http://www.pcrm.org/pdfs/health/Nutrition_for_Kids.pdf
Concerning morality and cold weather individuals without access to a variety of vegetation year round- are we talking about Siberia? That is an interesting topic of debate for sure! However, it does not apply to a vast majority of the individuals who see the information that I share. To justify one’s eating habits on another one’s circumstance is intellectually dishonest.
FrankG says
My relatively recent ancestors were in Southern Europe during the last ice-ages, is it “intellectually dishonest” to deny that I may have inherited some of my genetic makeup from them?
bcflyfisher says
Flax? I prefer to get a good source of DHA and EPA from my own wild-caught salmon.
Funny, Chris even talked about flax as a source of Omega 3’s:
http://chriskresser.com/why-fish-stomps-flax-as-a-source-of-omega-3
Rudy Steffen says
Choose the flax. It is a viable option, easier on the wallet, and no one has to die. Just be sure to grind it up into a powder as it is easier to absorb in that form.
Ann says
I pretty much agree with the earlier poster, Donna. I think that we are all individuals and likely need to figure out what is best for our bodies. Maybe through observation and testing. Years ago in the middle of a bad autoimmune flare, I read Fit for Life and the author promoted grain free and meat free living. I agreed with the grain free part, but had trouble with the meat free part. He also said it took approximately 24 hours to digest meat, this DID concern me. So, I started eating meat every other day. I stopped grain and sugar and greatly increased veggies. After this change in my diet, I was so healthy, my doctor couldn’t believe it. For some reason, I fell off the wagon and I’m paying for it dearly today. I noticed, generally speaking, we seem to be all or nothing thinkers. I know for me, it seems that eating lots of meat products might not be a good idea, but I do think they are a good part of a healthy diet. And I’ve cut way back on dairy, only using organic butter for example, on top of my veggies. I think, most of us realize that Americans in particular don’t seem to eat enough vegetables….which should be a very important part of a healthy diet. So very similar to Donna, for me it is about watching the needs of my body, and finding good quality foods, a little good quality animal products for their special benefits, lots of vegetables, some fruits, a tiny amount of organic dairy, no sugar, no grains, no junk food, maybe a very Occasional piece of dark chocolate….with the help of some good doctors, observation, testing, I’m creating a diet that I hope will optimize my health. It’s not all or nothing or doing exactly what someone else is doing.
Robert Grillo says
First, e leading source on why many different kinds of vegan diets are not just nutritionally adequate but optimal: Vegan Diets: Sorting Through the Nutritional Myths at http://freefromharm.org/vegan-diets-sorting-nutritional-myths/
Second, this article is based on a lot of old and outdated nutrition information. See Catching Up With Science: Burying the “Humans Need Meat” Argument at http://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/catching-up-with-science-burying-the-humans-need-meat-argument/#sthash.NfHOMTLg.dpuf
Third, many of the nutrients the author claims are lacking in a vegan diet are actually being artificially supplemented to the feed of animals raised commercially for food, including B12, and yet we are told that relying on supplement and fortified foods is not a “natural” way to eat. If you really want to learn how unnatural and cruel animal exploitation is today, please do visit my organization’s website. In fact, forget about the worst case scenario for animals on large, industrialized farms and just take a closer look at the so-called “humane” and “sustainable” farming practices today at http://freefromharm.org/animal-products-and-ethics/a-comprehensive-analysis-of-the-humane-farming-myth/. Would this be acceptable to do to your neighbor’s dog? Of course not. So how can one have any integrity by paying someone else to abuse and violently kill animals at a fraction of their natural lifespan we have no biological need to eat?
Donna says
I think I will just continue my own “personal best” diet/lifestyle habits: Eating mainly veggies, fruits, nuts, and the occasional dairy/eggs/meat/fish (all as local as humanly possible).. as little processed crap as possible, NO fast food, lots and lots of water and green tea, a few good organic vitamin supplements…. exercise daily, get sunshine and fresh air… indulge once in awhile in a nice wine or beer, a decadent dessert or piece of yummy dark chocolate… and lots of laughter and love. It works for me 🙂
LizF says
I think that’s amazing Donna! I’m a vegetarian myself, but I think that’s a much better lifestyle than most have – and the important thing is you lead one that makes you happy!
Russell says
“It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.”
Laura Schoenfeld says
As a dietitian, that statement really upsets me.
Especially the part where they say a vegetarian diet is appropriate for pregnancy, infancy and childhood. While some people can be healthy on a vegetarian diet, I know of many people who have gotten quite ill on a vegetarian diet. To impose a plant-based diet on children (without supplemental nutrient dense animal foods) is really unfortunate, especially when they’re at a critical period for growth and development. Not everyone can get the nutrients they need from plants, as we all have genetic variations that affect our ability to absorb and metabolize nutrients.
Annette says
I was raised vegan from birth and I consider myself to be very fortunate, quite the contrary to what you believe. My children will also be raised vegan and will receive every nutrient their body needs, as I do, and others I know who experience optimal health on a whole food plant based diet.
Cappy says
Of course it bothers you Laura. That is because you are completely indoctrinated by the meat, dairy, and egg industry propaganda. After all, they helped write the books for your education(indoctrination).
If you truly understood nutrition, you would never generalize a diet of infinite possibilities as vegetarian or vegan. You can be vegan eating Oreos and potato chips. As a professional, I don’t tell people to go vegetarian or vegan. I tell them to eat a plant-based, whole-foods, mostly raw diet, because it provides the best protection against the most number of diseases. This is what Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn promotes, and he has a 99% success rate of curing has patients of heart disease. But he must somehow be wrong, because your text books say otherwise, eh?
In addition, you force a child to eat meat. You don’t force them to eat plant foods. Put a small child in a crib with an apple and a bunny. If the child eats the bunny and plays with the apple, I’ll buy you a new car. Meat is unnatural to us. That is why we have to cook it or otherwise specially prepare it to prevent getting sick. Please show many omnivore in nature who cooks their meat before it is eaten.
Laura Schoenfeld says
Oh dear. Quite a bizarre experiment you’ve proposed there. I don’t know a single omnivore who would pick up a live animal and try to bite into it. Can’t imagine rabbit fur feels too good going down your throat!
And I’d imagine that if you put a soft piece of slow-cooked, fatty lamb and a raw kale leaf in that same crib, that the child would most likely put the meat in its mouth. (But now we’re both just making suppositions.)
Cappy says
Humans are frugivores. Fruit is the preferred food. That is why I said an apple and not kale. Don’t they teach comparative anatomy to dietitians?
And the mere fact that you said “cooked” shows how disconnected you are from a natural diet. Name me one other omnivore or carnivore that has to cook its food, or specially prepare it before consumption.
And you are right, a mouth full of fur is not appetizing. Please find me another omnivore or carnivore that wouldn’t eat a rabbit because it was covered in fur.
FrankG says
So now humans are frugivores? This should be good.. references???
In the meantime you might care to check out what out nearest genetic cousins the chimpanzees actually eat.. it ain’t just bananas Toto!
As for raw meat and comparing humans other omnivores… you surely must be aware of the hypothesis that we developed our large brains (which sadly some seem intent on wasting away) by virtue of reducing digestive effort by cooking our food
Or to put it in language which you may understand, “find me another omnivore or carnivore” where the brain uses over 20% of its resting energy?
Laura Schoenfeld says
I’m sorry but this is getting too ridiculous. First of all, humans are not “frugivores”, we have an omnivorous digestive tract. Here is a good comparative anatomy chart between the three types of digestive systems: http://highsteaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/carnivore-herbivore-omnnivore-comparison.jpg
Second, there’s evidence that the reason humans are as advanced as we are is because we cook our food. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/29/cooked-food-diet-primates-brains_n_2033975.html
I want to ensure that anyone reading these comments who is on the fence about a vegan diet will have plenty of information from both viewpoints to inform their decisions.
bcflyfisher says
“Humans are frugivores”.
And that’s why Steve Jobs is dead. Smart guy, but he should have starved his cancer instead of feeding it.
Lizzy says
Put a grasshopper in there instead of the bunny, I bet you the kid will eat the bug instead of the apple. Nummy.
Stephen Albers says
The question about optimal diet is an important one because diet is an easy way to influence health. While the American Dietetic Association states that carefully designed Vegetarian Diets can meet all nutritional needs and there are many examples of successful vegetarian and vegan athletes, there is a broader question here that this article mentions: variable absorbency by different individuals.
The solution to this problem is so simple: Everyone should just get tested periodically to confirm they are absorbing optimal levels of all nutrients of interest. Testing is widely available at reasonable cost and entirely takes the guesswork out of determining proper nutrition.
A primary issue about animal products is not nutrition but avoiding a long list of bad things: saturated fat, cholesterol, protein, pollutants, antibiotics and hormones.
I have myself tested annually to verify optimal nutrition absorption from my vegan diet. I supplement and tweak my vegan diet modestly. Further, it is easy to test for toxin build up that is a major concern from eating inorganics and animal products and make diet adjusts for that too.
Everyone should stop guessing about nutrition by being tested and guided accordingly.
Annette says
I second this. I occasionally have a metabolic analysis which lets me know how my carb, fat, protein metabolisms are doing as well as things like electrolyte levels, nervous system, vit c, alkaline/ acid balance etc and tweak my vegan diet accordingly.
Wayne says
I’m very health conscious. I shop at farmers markets, co-ops, health food stores, and I grow my own. I am omnivorous in my eating habits, so I buy all my free range, grass fed meats, eggs, and raw dairy from local farmers directly. Big corporations make no money from me nor my family.
That being said, I live a healthy and happy lifestyle with a moderate injury related paralysis challenge that is manageable.
Quality of life is more important to me than quantity, so if the vegetarians outlive me, I couldn’t care less. I wouldn’t trade my quality of life for theirs, based on my observations, and despite my physical challenges. I think most health conscious omnivores have vegetarian friends, and I am no exception.
My question is; is it me, my selection of vegetarian friends, or a common symptom of a vegetarian diet, that they are so often very crabby. They also struggle with stamina and seem to lack motivation. Healthy or not, I do not want this kind of life. Especially a long lived one.
Annette says
I completely agree with everything in this article- I mean after all, isn’t it obvious that it’s not possible to be healthy, get all essential nutrients, and have enough energy on a vegan diet? Duh… https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.651446311583081.1073741833.452441044816943&type=3
Honora says
For the reasons cited above in the opening paragraph, I too began to follow a vegan diet but in my research soon got scared off. A considerable number of the paleo community have been vegan and then due to resulting ill-health, began eating meat etc. Some of them are still recovering slowly from the ill-effects of the stated possible deficiencies.
I suspect it’s all about genotypes whether some people thrive on vegan diets and others become very poorly. Also there may be come compensatory mechanisms for some individuals that other individuals can’t achieve e.g. conversion of flaxseed oil to EPA and DHA which would account for some people doing well on a vegan diet and others not so much.
23andme can generate genomic data which third party sites such as mthfrsupport.com and genetic genie can analyse to help explain or guide people in their dietary choices. The heartfixer.com website can help explain things as well. Factors such as haemochromatosis have to be taken into account when making choices. At least we all agree that sugar’s not a good idea!
Annette says
Yes I am aware that many paleos tried plant based diets. I’ve read all the “been there, done that, it doesn’t work” stories. I have found that in almost every single case it’s obvious they were approaching it wrong, and most of the time it’s because they did things like turn to soy and grains as staples to replace the flesh they were so used to eating. I was raised on a plant- based diet since birth and so I have never felt the need to “replace” anything. When I look at food I see the nutritional value- I’m not trying to replace the same feeling in my belly or on my tongue that something else used to give me. In this sense I cannot relate to meat- eaters trying to ‘go veg’, but I do have some perspective that helps me to understand why so many fail.
FrankG says
Sure let’s hold up muscle-bound freaks as paragons of health and wellness! Good grief!
But seriously I wonder how little digging it would take to find our which of these are “true” vegans like Bill Clinton… who indulges in occasional salmon, eggs etc. .so as to avoid nutrient deficiencies?
Or how many of these have been raised as vegans since conception? A fate I assume many of you are forcing on your innocent children and pets. Are you really so cock-sure that is the best thing for their future health and well-being?
Annette says
I was raised vegan since birth, and I’m 30 years old. I’m alive and well- and consider myself incredibly fortunate that my parents used their common sense. My grandfather was vegan for the last 25 years of his life and thrived. In the end it was a car accident that killed him- not long after he gave up his pension because he wanted to grow his business at 80 years of age (so much energy). You can argue till the cows come home but as you can see it’s a waste of time.
FrankG says
Oh I can tell that trying to have reasoned discussion with you is a waste of my breath but despite what you claim here, just below you contradict yourself…
“I occasionally have a metabolic analysis which lets me know how my carb, fat, protein metabolisms are doing as well as things like electrolyte levels, nervous system, vit c, alkaline/ acid balance etc and tweak my vegan diet accordingly.”
Why would you need to tweak perfection? And what potential harm could this do to a growing child? Missing an essential nutrient at a crucial moment in their development? What if you identified this shortfall in your diet just as you were conceiving a child? And sure I recognise that could also happen with an omnivorous diet… it’s just that it is far less likely; as a steak (for one example) has such a huge list of nutrients, as compared to a cabbage.
Annette says
Oh dear I can see you feel a bit defeated and are now trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find come- backs! I will waste no more time with you. Please go away- don’t you have some magnesium supplements to take? Goodbye
FrankG says
Yes, I’m sure you like that wouldn’t you.. if people like me would just go away.
So awkward when you are unable to respond to issues raised against your fantasy world.
Me go away? Not gonna happen…
Jay says
Wow. You’re still commenting this far down the page and getting obviously upset. You need to calm down. Maybe debating diets with strangers on the internet is not healthy for you?
Cappy says
Animal products have at most around 27 nutrients. All plant-products have over 10,000 nutrients. Plants are packed fill of phyto-chemicals of which animals products have none.
1/3rd of US Citizens will die of heart disease. Another 1/3 will die from cancer. Add on the number of people who will die from auto-immune disorders and you are looking at a most of the population. All of these diseases list animal products as a major cause. A whole-food, plant-based diet is not attributed to one single disease, and is actually proven to risk factors of all the previously mentioned conditions.
In other words, enjoy your heart attack. While you are having it, think of the thousands of animals you killed, the poor you starved, and the environment you destroyed to give you the heart attack.
FrankG says
Oh dear.. somebody really does read and apparently believe all that vegan propaganda.
Cappy says
It is ironic that when people are completely brainwashed by advertising and cultural paradigms that they actually view the truth, based on scientific evidence, to be propaganda.
FrankG says
I could and do say the exact same thing about your own narrow-minded view of the world. You are brainwashed.
Christopher says
Wow, Cappy. I want you to think of the “the thousands of animals you killed, the poor you starved, and the environment you destroyed” just by existing. If you live in America and indulge in our consumerist culture in any way, you are contributing to those issues as much as any meat eater. It is delusional to think otherwise. Or are you a hermit who lives in a hut without electricity and only eats food you grew yourself? Well, you are on the internet so I doubt it.
meg says
I cannot believe the venom that comes out of the mouths of vegans. I thought veganism was to embrace compassion and empathy for all living creatures. For the love of God listen to yourself. Are you really moving toward a better world? Shame.
Mina says
So Cappy, you are saying that if you eat vegan you won’t die?!?!! Cause that’s what it sound like.
Ann says
I just recently bought your book! I also have recently been through a lot health wise and am making changes. I’ve had pelvic pain and have been dx’d with an autoimmune disease. My doctors wanted me off grains and that seems to be helping me with my many uncomfortable symptoms, including the pelvic pain. But I had some concern about animal products too, so I’m eating them in smaller portions and looking for good quality. I don’t see where being a vegetarian and especially a vegan is ideal. I’ve had low B12 in the past and that is miserable. So, now I don’t eat grains or sugar and eat moderate amounts of meat and fruits and lots of vegetables and small portions of organic dairy. For example, sometimes I want a little butter on my veggies…and I see nothing wrong with that. Honestly, I’m very concerned about my health and know in my heart that a healthy diet is vital. Looking forward to reading your book…just got it!!!!
Trina says
While the paleo rationales make sense to me, and while I seem to need to eat meat to control depression, I have to wonder why the studies show no difference between health conscious meat eaters and non meat eaters if vegetarianism is as deficient as you claim. I mean, if this were all true, shouldn’t they show worse health?
Also, I was reading P. Jaminet’s discussion about omega 3 toxicity levels and ease of rancidity, and it occurs to me that maybe we don’t want a “good” source of it. Maybe a poorly converted plant source is just what we need! (if omega 6’s are in check, of course)
Annette says
Good point made. My grandfather was vegan for the last 25 years of his life (he became vegan after he was diagnosed with liver cancer and was given 4 months to live). He was so energetic, fit and healthy, he even gave up his pension because he was too restless. He worked 14 hour days, 7 days a week- at age 80. Everyone who didn’t know his diet wanted to know his secret, and we all joked that he would break a record for the longest living human. Unfortunately before his 81st birthday he was on his early morning walk just before the sun rose and was hit by a car and killed. I wish he was alive for many reasons, but one would be to show him this article. I bet it would have made him chuckle.
Mina says
Anette my grandfather ate meat and vegetables and grew up in another country, went through war and famine and wow, lived to be about 84 and died peacefully in his bed. My brother-in-laws mom grew up in a polluted mining town, smoked all her life, ate meat and veg, got lung cancer, beat that and died in her 90s. What is your point?
Sharon says
Living a long life doesn’t necessarily mean it was a healthy thriving life. Flawed observation fallacy.
FrankG says
You mean to apply this pearl of wisdom to BOTH Mina’s AND Annette’s anecdote,,. of course???
Such a negative person.. seeing only fallacies around her…
Laura Schoenfeld says
Actually, a poorly converted plant source might reduce your ability to use the biologically active form of omega-3 fats. I would say the ideal source of omega-3 is fresh, lightly cooked or raw fatty fish or pastured egg yolks that have not been exposed to oxidative damage and yet have high amounts of omega-3 fats, DHA in particular.
I suggest you read this excellent article for more information:
http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/precious-yet-perilous
Annette says
Thanks for the link but no thanks- I’m a few steps ahead of you and I’ve been through these conversations before.
Trina says
Well, as modern humans we can choose something optimal over evolutionary, but I did wonder what source of cold water fish we would have been eating in Africa, what fish we ate before nets were invented, and what eggs we ate most of the time as in the wild they are highly seasonal … I was just suggesting that maybe there is a reason our requirements are so low. The problem seems to come from gorging on the modern seed oils, I guess
A says
I recently suffered pelvic pain and was told to stop consuming grains. In fact, four of my doctors told me to stop consuming grains. I told one of my docs that the China Study and various documentaries I have seen had me concerned about eating meat. She had a good suggestion; to reduce my meat consumption and to eat the best quality meats I can find. My new diet is not easy…but in a short while, I feel Much better. I’m not eating grains, eating less meat, but good quality meat, very very little dairy (only organic and only lactose free), not eating sugar at all, lots of good water, no sodas at all, a max of one Truvia packet a day…a LOT of veggies a day, fruit daily, etc. For me, grains seem to be the big culprit and I also think we might eat too many animal products. I’ve had to listen to my doctors and listen to what my body was telling me and adjust accordingly. I pray I can keep this up. I know in my heart a good, healthy diet is imperative! Best wishes to all who seek to find good health.
Christopher says
I also beat pelvic pain with diet and reducing grains and sugars was primary in that success. Listening to your body is important — it will tell you when things are out-of-whack and nutritional imbalances leading to inflammation and pain are easy to overcome if you catch them early enough. If you can tolerate it, try eating some full-fat yogurt and other fermented foods as they will help heal your gut and ease discomfort that leads to muscle tension in your pelvis.
Oh, and look into gentle stretches that activate the psoas muscle — the tension of which is a top cause of pelvic pain.
Emily Nolan says
This is a very one-sided argument. I have been vegan and omnivorous. I am much healthier as a vegan and my recent medical record (overcoming one autoimmune disease, several intolerances and getting off all prescription medicine) and my high endurance and energy are a testament to the diet. That said, it’s a choice, and I think people should choose a diet that makes them feel the best, not a diet that someone dictates to you. Life is short–enjoy the journey!
Chris Kresser says
The experience of one person, though surely valuable to the person in question, is not a valid scientific defense of veganism and does not detract from the central argument of this article, which is that nutrient deficiencies are common in vegetarian and vegan diets.
I do agree that people should choose the diet that makes them feel best, but the problem is that can be misleading. If someone is eating a “standard american” omnivorous diet with a lot of processed and refined food, and then they switch to a vegan diet, they will surely feel better. They went from eating crap to eating real food. But that does not mean a vegan diet is optimal, nor does it mean they won’t develop nutrient deficiencies over time with such an approach.
Cappy says
“The experience of one person, though surely valuable to the person in question, is not a valid scientific defense of veganism and does not detract from the central argument of this article, which is that nutrient deficiencies are common in vegetarian and vegan diets.”
This is complete hyperbole. People who consume plant-based diets might have lower levels of some nutrients, and higher levels of other nutrients. A lower level of a nutrient does NOT make someone deficient. Deficiency means an insufficient amount, or a lack of, which means that symptoms must be present for it to be considered a deficiency. If no symptoms, then there is an adequate amount.
The baseline for nutrient levels is obtained from a sample of the population. In Western cultures, especially the US, the norm of the population is an overweight person who eats a lot of animal products and processed foods, doesn’t work out, and has high cholesterol & blood pressure. Your norm is unhealthy, so comparing someone who eats a plant-based diet on blood levels alone is ludicrous.
Let’s look at health.
People who eat a plant-based diet are the only group, on average, to have a healthy BMI. http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v27/n6/full/0802300a.html
Lower risk of heart disease.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2013/130130.html
Lower risk of cancer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048091/
Lower risk of diabetes.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/610S.full
The list goes on and on, and yet not a single “deficiency” you mentioned is cited as a cause for any remotely common disease, let alone symptoms. Yet, eating animal products is cited as a contributor in every single major disease. How brainwashed do you have to be to find a 1 in 3 chance of dying from a heart attack to be less of a threat than an extremely rare vitamin deficiency.
I suggest people research this info on their own and not simply listen to the propaganda repeated by the meat, dairy, and egg industry that have become irrational paradigms.
Jake says
Why is her life experience invalid? Because it contradicts what you want to believe?
Colin says
He didn’t say that. He said that n=1 doesn’t negate entire scientific arguments
Karen says
I find this extremely ONE sided as well. I’ve also done both ( vegan/whole30) as well as a raw diet for a very short while. I recently started the whole30 and have extended it indefinately because of the results. My diet does include meat, it’s no more than a fifth of what is on my plate and is less meat than what I eat prior to the whole 30. Everything else is veggies with limited fruit. I’ve cut out all processed/refined/dairy/grains/legumes/potato/soy … anything that is not a meat, veggie, fruit or nut with the exception of unrefined coconut oil. I have had great results with this and credit it to the increased amount of veggies I eat. I try to buy the best quality food I can as well as support local farmers by joining a CSA.
I believe whether you go whole 30/paleo or vegan/vegatarian, the key is to eat correctly, eliminate the processed crap, add lots of fresh fruits and veggies which are awesome for you ( I can’t believe I hear people making statements against veggies ) and for me, eliminating dairy, grains & sugar was the best thing i’ve ever done.
Ross says
This was at first appearances a well researched and referenced article. However, the first (and only) two references I clicked through to in no way supported the assertions being made in the article:
1. the ‘myth’ that seaweed, brewer’s yeast and fermented soy provide real B12. The article referenced just listed the test results for a single specific supplement (spirulina). It made no claims about any naturally occurring sources of B12.
2. the study showing that vegetarians don’t live any longer than omnivores when health consciousness is factored out. The study in question neither had this as a stated aim. nor was it a finding that it claimed to have made. It was just about whether eating fresh fruit and veg affected mortality.
These quickly undermined any confidence I had in the writer, and I gave up on this article after that. If you want to make unsubstantiated claims, please have the good grace to present them as opinion and not to hide them behind false references and academic pretensions.
Chris Kresser says
1. You can find many additional references showing that B12 in plant foods is not a viable source here: http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7c.shtml.
2. You have to read the full-text of the study. Look at Table 3. After adjusting for age and smoking, vegetarians had a slightly higher risk of death from all causes than omnivores among the health-conscious group. It is not relevant that this wasn’t a stated aim of the study; the finding is in the data.
Adam says
I have found the same thing with most of Chris’s references. The study on the omnivores vs vegetarians also found that a vegetarian diet was associated with a lower risk of death from ischaemic heart disease, and they also referenced other studies with the same finding. Of course, that detail was left out. Another study previously quoted by the author to support the omni vs veg having same lifespan was the EPIC study. Yet, this study found that red meat was associated with an increased risk of colorectal cancer. Again, not mentioned.
I also find it hard to believe that choline deficiency is a concern… the average person gets over 1,000 mg a day despite the RDA being only about 420mg. I use choline in my daily research and know it well. One recent study showed that men in the highest quintile of choline intake had a 70% increased risk of lethal prostate cancer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22952174
I could get into the other flaws in this article, but I have neither the patience nor the time.
Laura Schoenfeld says
“I also find it hard to believe that choline deficiency is a concern… the average person gets over 1,000 mg a day”
Do you have some data for that? That statement directly contradicts the findings of this study: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-4887.2009.00246.x/abstract
“Mean choline intakes for older children, men, women, and pregnant women are far below the adequate intake level established by the IOM. Given the importance of choline in a wide range of critical functions in the human body, coupled with less-than-optimal intakes among the population, dietary guidance should be developed to encourage the intake of choline-rich foods.”
Adam says
My apologies, I could have sworn I saw that number somewhere, but you are right: it is inaccurate. Must have had a brain fart!
I still don’t see potential choline deficiency as a reason to not eat a vegan diet. Studies in the literature looking at choline deficiency give their subjects less than 50 mg per day for several days to induce the deficiency. The only way to match this on a vegan diet is to eat mostly junk food, since plants contain adequate amounts of choline.
Also, the study you referenced concluded that mean intakes were below that established by the IOM – which means these people were below the RDI even though they consumed meat. Doesn’t really make the case for eating meat.
It also mentions that choline plasma levels are also dependent on folate. Given that the majority of our population is folate deficient, this may explain why most are exhibiting a secondary choline deficiency. Sure enough, when you give folate to people with a choline deficiency, they get better.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/129/3/712.long
Perhaps, instead of advising people to eat meat, we should be advising them to eat leafy green vegetables and beans so that they have adequate folate and choline.
There is no evidence to suggest that a vegan diet comprising of plenty of folate-rich green vegetables will result in a choline deficiency. If there is, I would love to see it. And given the association of high choline intake with prostate cancer, we should be wary of getting too much of it.
Wendy Myers says
In addition to nutrient deficiencies, vegetarians and vegans also all suffer copper toxicity. It’s due to zinc deficiency, which opposes copper. http://www.liveto110.com/copper-toxicity-syndrome
Eugenia says
I’m actually kind of bummed that Chris simply re-iterates the well known veg*n deficiencies, e.g. B12, DHA, retinol A. But what about all the rest? The lesser known, but equally important?
These can ONLY be found in meat or fish too, and they are needed as much as other well-known vitamins:
– Taurine
– Carnosine
– L-acetyl-carnitine
– Creatine
And not to mention things like CoQ10 and PQQ which are super important, and can only be found in good quantities in animal hearts (plants have very little of them). And of course, collagen. Ever wondered why so many vegans have white hair by the age of 30?
Chris Kresser says
The peer-reviewed evidence is not as strong on these nutrients, and their requirement in the diet is not as well-established in the literature, so that’s why they’re not included here.
And believe me, the deficiencies listed in this article are *not* well-known or accepted in the mainstream health world, much less the vegetarian or vegan worlds.
Annette says
30 year old here who has never consumed a shred of meat in my entire life with not even one remotely grey hair on my head.
Mark Shields says
I’m 32 with a full head of gray hair, but a full belly of bacon. I’ll happily choose bacon.
Fred says
Just wait. It happened to me around age 36-38. Massively. Wirey grey hair like all vegetarians I ever saw growing up. I thought they were healthy and much older, but now I realized the truth. They look healthy for older people, but not for their actual age.
Tim says
Annette – you are 30. Not having grey hair is kinda no surprise at that age
John McDonell says
I think that one biggy, (that is usually analyzed as two separate things, rather than be formally related) is Zn-carnosine to stabilize the gut. {I think it to be high levels in human-colostrum, but do not know for sure.}
FrankG says
Thanks for this Chris. I share the concern which I think you raised about children being raised as vega*tarians… like religion, I think this should be an choice left ’till adulthood.
Humans are opportunistic omnivores and it may be possible to meet our complete nutritional needs without any animal products (although ALL life on this planet shares the same genome and is part of massive recycling project.. including humans) but I daresay it is a great deal easier to get full nutrition from say as steak than from multiple fruits and vegetables.
In particular: growing children have much different needs than a mature adult and the lack of essentials can lead to a lifetime of issues.
Notably, I understand that both Drs. Barnard and McDougall were raised on cattle ranches.. only choosing to eschew meat as adults.
Annette says
I was one of the very fortunate few people in the world who was raised by health- conscious, awakened parents who never fed me animal flesh or products. See, as a baby, I never instinctively wanted to kill animals- instead, I preferred to pat and cuddle them. The act of killing animals or paying others to kill them is something that is learned through social conditioning. If anything, children should be raised vegan and should choose as adults whether or not they want to begin to unnecessarily cause harm to others for no reason other than palate pleasure.
Laura Schoenfeld says
Or perhaps children should be raised as ecologically appropriate omnivores with humanely sourced animal products, and then they can choose to become vegetarian once they’re at the age where they can make a decision that will potentially affect their long-term health.
God forbid you force veganism on a child who has a genetic polymorphism that leaves them unable to convert vitamin A, B12, or omega-3 fats from plant foods, (perhaps they have the MTHFR mutation or a beta-carotene SNP) and they end up seriously ill from lack of bioavailable nutrients.
Not everyone thrives on a vegan diet, and it’s inhumane to experiment on a young child who may face a lifetime of poor health thanks to inadequate nutrition during their critical formative years.
Annette says
Inhumane? That’s a big call. I am also fortunate to have access to dieticians who are more educated in REAL nutrition than most, and are not still brainwashed by much of the bias of the the farming lobbies- I mean, educational institutions.
Laura Schoenfeld says
Well personally I would never advocate a vegan diet for a child, but that’s based on my own knowledge and continuing daily study of human nutrition, biochemistry, and genetic influence on dietary needs. But hey, that’s just me. If it works for you, go for it. At least the information is out there for people who want to make an informed choice.
Christopher says
Annette, you’ve “never instinctively” wanted to kill an animal and eat it because you’ve never had to. Starvation is not social conditioning and god forbid you are ever starving and the only thing to eat is an animal you’ll have to kill.
Peace says
There is way of eating that supports non-violence. To not kill animals or plants and even microbes etc. Since on a physical level we do not see much immortality perhaps we could only eat things that have died from natural causes in addition to nuts and fruits. To kill is very bad karma, and to advocate killing by supporting in any way the existence of a society that supports killing is not that good.
anna says
Oh, I don’t have patience for this.
charles grashow says
This is giving me a headache.
charles grashow says
Why not eat road kill then??
Honora says
I know a vegetarian who eats roadkill only. He commutes into town and if there’s a critter on the tarmac who wasn’t there before, he’s in. Usually a rabbit but brush tailed possums are a wonderful animal to dine on.
charles grashow says
If he eats roadkill he’s not a vegetarian he’s an omnivore
Adlock Hungry says
Have you tried mentioning this to any Accipiters?
John McDonell says
I think you missed one Chris, the amino acid taurine. Taurine is a quasi-essential nutrient, in that children will auto-produce it from cysteine, but adults absolutely need it from food and fish/meat are THE best sources vs vegetables that have none. R. Huxtable found that taurine tightly binds zinc onto membranes of cells. Because taurine is a Zwitterion (oppositely charged on each end of the same molecule) it gives each cell-surface its negative charge and since like-charges-repel, cells stay apart. [important for environmental allergies] This binding of the zinc onto membrane sites makes it THE ‘pool’ of zinc for inside-of-cell usage. This coupling is also the way cells channel potassium to cell’s inside, while leaving sodium outside cells. [if interest: zinc is gleaned from foods-eaten by the ligand PgE2. Long-considered a bad guy PgE2 promotes inflammation and helps ??? when sesame lignans block inflammation … do they block zinc uptake too?]
Honora says
Well, there’s an answer for my query above.
Queen says
If we’re on paleo, we shouldn’t consume dairy, but in your article you don’t suggest so eating only vegetables to get calcium. So are you suggesting that paleo people should go back to consuming dairy? Sorry, I’m just confused and want to have a good understanding. Thanks!
Eugenia says
Most Paleo dieters today do consume FERMENTED dairy (so, little lactose remains). Some do rice too. In the earlier days of Paleo (when Wolf’s book came out), things were more strict. Now, it’s not so. Even Wolf himself eats these now.
The Caucasian people who used to live past 100 yo, ate mostly goat milk kefir, for example. But it was always fermented, and from casein A2 animal (goat/sheep/buffalo).
So, as long as you don’t have a major dairy intolerance, where even a minute amount of lactose, or all types of casein being problematic, there’s no problem to have fermented A2 dairy.
Speaking for myself, I get stomach pain when I drink plain milk (full fat, raw not available here), but I have zero problems with home-made goat kefir, fermented for 24 hours.
I’d go as far as to say that lentils aren’t the evil that Paleo people think they are either. Research is lacking, but there are three papers that show that when SOME legumes are soaked and pressure-cooked, they become WAY LESS problematic than nuts (which are full of anti-nutrients and omega-6, and yet, Paleo has endorsed them).
So, Paleo in 2008 is not the same as Paleo in 2014. New papers have come out, millions have tried the diet and tested what works for them and what not. Paleo is a template, not a hard rule. If it was a hard rule, we shouldn’t be eating any of the modern veggies and hybrid fruits either. But we do.
charles grashow says
Jersey cow milk is also A2.
Eugenia says
Yes, but they usually mix it with other cows’ milk in the industry, so unless you’re buying directly (usually from the Amish), you won’t find “jersey cow milk”. While goat, sheep and buffalo, are marked as such. So for all intends and purposes, it’s best to avoid cow milk (if casein-intolerant) if you don’t know exactly from which type of cow it came from. This is why I didn’t mention Jerseys.
Honora says
Chris Kresser has sourced A2 milk for himself. We have it here in our local supermarket in Christchurch, New Zealand but sadly it seems to go sour very quickly as it has a slow turnover on the shelf due to the price I suspect and it’s only available in 2L bottles which is a lot for moi to drink on my own.
charles grashow says
I get Jersey cow milk at my local food co-op. It’s pure Jersey cow milk
Lizzy says
I only drink raw Jersey milk from a dairy that only raises Jersey cows using traditional pasture-based methods. It is definitely worth researching what you eat, because when I first switched to raw cows milk I still had digestion problems due to consuming milk of both Jerseys and Holsteins. I don’t have any problems with raw Jersey milk.
Helen says
Not always, a herd local to me is approx 80% a2, I asked the farmer , though it is raw. He is working to increase his herd to 100% a2
Buffalo milk and goats milk I believe is a2
anna says
Good comment, but “The Caucasian people who used to live past 100 …” is problematic.
Oh, to have the Caucasus (particularly older, purer one), in New York …
Eugenia says
It was meant as “the Caucasus people”, not Caucasian. This is why kefir was mentioned as well. English is not my first language.
Chris Kresser says
I just wrote a book called “Your Personal Paleo Code”. The idea behind that book is using the Paleo diet as a starting point, rather than a destination. I’ve argued that full-fat dairy, dark chocolate, alcohol, nightshades and even properly prepared legumes and grains are all healthy when 1) well-tolerated by the individual, and 2) consumed in moderation.
The argument that legumes are toxic because of lectins isn’t supported by the evidence. Raw lectins are certainly problematic, but lectins in beans are destroyed by heat, and I don’t know anyone eating raw beans. I’ll be writing more about this soon.
Julia says
I agree that vegetarian and especially vegan diets are deficient in essential nutrients, and that optimal diets contain animal products. However, we live in a toxic world where environmental pollutants concentrate in animal fat, even from animals raised organically on the most pristine pastures. Perfluorochemicals, DDT, hexachlorobenzene, PCB’s, dioxins, organochlorine pesticides concentrations are much higher in fish, meats, cheese, dairy and poultry than in vegetable foods. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/food-sources-of-perfluorochemicals/
anna says
I think I don’t understand.
Are you promoting a deficient diet?
Chris Kresser says
See this article I wrote that puts the risk of dioxins and mercury in fish and other animal products into perspective. Short version: it’s a non-issue in most cases. The benefits of eating these foods far outweigh the potential harms.
Liz says
Haven’t studies shown that vegans (more so than vegetarians) are at higher risk of developing early onset dementia?
Neil says
As is evidenced by some of the earlier commentators’ assertions with regards to its efficacy.
Tara says
well wouldn’t that depend on what they’re eating…..
Honora says
I read there was evidence of a link between non-fermented soy (tofu) and dementia but none between fermented soy (tempeh). Tempeh isn’t that great to eat, I reckon, miso is lovely but natto – ugh! You can disguise it with mayonnaise, sauerkraut and mustard. Being quite hungry helps too.
Bear says
Oh please, post links to these studies. Dementia wiped out an entire generation in my family, and it’s also affecting members on the other side of my dna. Every single person I’m related to that has demetia has been a lifelong meat eater, so please, show me the studies that say non-meat eaters are the ones who are more likely to be affected.
Dila says
You might want to read the book called “Grain brain” by Dr. Perlmutter. Or watch the interview with him where he explains about his findings on how high carb and low fat diet can destroy your brain.
Sharon says
Dr Perlmutter’s opinion has been debunked.
Here is a quote from the article–
Here are my thoughts on the diet–
I checked out articles about the Grain Brain book and found the book to be quite biased with much fallacies about diet. I think the author suggested his diet of high fat and low carbs because the brain that is made up of 60% fat is more vulnerable to glycation damage on proteins(including blood veins) due to high blood glucose(from consuming high GI carbs) compared to other parts of the body that have more protein percentage to shield against glycation’s protein damage.(view footnotes about glycation)
I also think that the earliest human species had to binge on fat because it was the most convenient source of calories because fat has 9 calories per gram compared to carb’s and protein’s 4 calories per gram. And they didn’t know when their next meal would be coming so they had to binge efficient calories(from fat) as much as possible. Fat was also needed to keep bodies warm during cold winters.
So I don’t think modern humans have to necessarily follow the eating habits of ancient humans. Modern people now have the luxury of eating more healthy foods and less of a need to binge on high calorie fat, and also are able to obtain good heating during cold winters so there is less of the need to require fat to keep the body warm.
Much modern advances in acquiring food and heating means that the human species can more easily adopt a vegan lifestyle in modern times compared to the past.
I feel that the author has committed the fallacy of thinking that the ancient diet is most natural and that modern man has to follow it. There is also the fallacy of thinking that carbs has to be drastically reduced just because the brain is more vulnerable to glycation’s protein damage compared to other parts of the body.
Dila says
Debunked by who? Care to share links?
Also, Sharon, you say “I feel that the author has committed the fallacy of thinking that the ancient diet is most natural and that modern man has to follow it.”
So basically, you think we should disregard our ancestral diet and go for something that our bodies are not adapted to subsist on.
I suggest you watch this (if you can do it with an open mind) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WemanmrAYvg
OnTheFence says
I watched the video you recommended. I don’t have faith in Weston-Price Foundation as too many things are unscientific – quite scary: “The diet of modern American women is so appalling, and their preparation for successful breastfeeding so lacking, that their breast milk provides no better nourishment for their infants than factory-made formula.” “If you have any qualms or fears about not having enough milk, assemble the ingredients for homemade formula…”
Of course, I agree with Keith on certain aspects of how the earth is being devastated by us humans. But the “agriculture” causing the land to stripped is more due to growing food for feeding animals not humans and the massive amount of mono planting is also due to crops used to feed animals – not humans.
Meat consumption worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years, and it is expected to double again by 2050. This is happening in large part because economies are growing and people can afford more meat. Basically, there’s no way to produce enough meat for 9 billion people.
Marine fish provide 15 percent of all animal protein consumed by humans. Under this intense pressure — 15 percent of 7 billion people (and growing), every year, year in, year out — global fisheries are collapsing.
While Keith is in an environment where she can find food in a natural environment – doesn’t work for the masses or me.
Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Plants just don’t have the biology – brain/pain sensors/organs which enable them to see, hear, taste, etc. like animals do.
Meat consumption worldwide has doubled in the last 20 years, and it is expected to double again by 2050. This is happening in large part because economies are growing and people can afford more meat.
http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/-Assessing_global_land_use%253a_balancing_consumption_with_sustainable_supply-2014LAND_REPORT.pdf
JacquieRN says
No to the contrary: http://www.pcrm.org/health/reports/dietary-guidelines-for-alzheimers-prevention.
FrankG says
PCRM — a vegan front organisation which tries to hide that fact… so no agenda or bias there LOL
Sam says
I was vegan for more than 10 years it didn’t work for me and for many of my vegan friends. There is a lot myths on veganism health and ethical views. Animals kill each other and suffer without any human intervention. The cycle of life is nature law.
The Naïve Vegetarian
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html#.Uwtfl02YbIU
Tam says
Sam- please do not use the “animals kill each other so it’s okay for us to kill them” argument. Most people also say that humans are superior to animals due to intellect, conscience, morals, emotional capability, etc. Sooooo….if we’re so superior in those aspects then choosing not to kill would be a reason proving we are superior? Right? So the very basic argument that meat-eaters use to try to convince themselves it’s okay to eat the morally inferior beings is completely debunked! Veggies win 🙂
FrankG says
Who are these “most people” who suddenly morph into just the “meat-eaters” in your straw-man argument?
I for one accept the humans are just another animal… just another part of the wide ranging and incredibly varied life on this planet — ALL of which is from the same genome.. ALL descended from the same common ancestor… animals AND plants.
Each day it seems that researchers overturn yet another idea about what separates us from the rest of life… being bi-pedal seems to be just about the only thing we have that is distinct.
As for being “superior” we are certainly not the fastest, strongest, longest-living, best equipped with senses etc.. etc… etc…
Sure we are aware of our own abstract thought and able to communicate it to others in our species (well some of us are anyway) but we make a mistake when we judge other life only by our own standards… just as you are doing.
Even plants are now being shown to “react” to the environment and external stimuli.. they exhibit “behaviours” — although I hesitate to use those human-descriptive words for something that we barely comprehend yet…
PBS – Nature: What Plants Talk About…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MOe5clOtI
ALL life is important and ALL needs to be treated with respect.. including humans
Be careful, or you own line of thinking may leave you with NOTHING to eat.
RudolphNitler says
lol Frank. I love you man. I’ve read many of your comments and I have to say, well played sir. You have utterly pwned these dimwits. Thanks for your time and contributions.
Christian says
So… humans kill each other all the time, can we kill them since they aren’t any different than any other animal? Also, plants, as far as we know, cannot suffer, so that would be an obvious line between them and animals…
Kathy S. says
Thanks so much for this info, particularly the paragraph on iron. I adopted an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet in my early 20s (so around 25 years ago) for ethical reasons. I felt amazing for the first three weeks or so, but after a couple of months I was plagued with fatigue, headaches, irregular heartbeat (I already had a congenital murmur) and irregular menstrual periods. Two different doctors told me that I was severely anemic and that while most people have more trouble absorbing non-heme iron than heme iron, I had even more trouble with that than the average person and really didn’t seem to be absorbing any at all. This explained a lot about my lifelong borderline anemia. So I added meat back into my diet with the understanding that my body needed heme iron, but I never knew until reading this article today that a vegetarian diet makes the body even less able to absorb non-heme iron! Geez, no wonder I was so anemic!
Elizabeth says
I understand that dairy is your best bet for available calcium. I suffer from vitiligo and have switched over to a paleo diet after being told for years there was nothing I could do and to expect it to get worse. I have actually seen some of my spots begin to re-pigment while doing the autoimmune protocol only to stop any progress when I re-introduce foods. If it turns out that I have a problem with dairy, how can I get enough calcium without supplementation? I know that I am low in Vit D so I assume that is effecting my calcium levels as well, and not eating dairy… It is such a struggle trying to get help from conventional doctors and even the naturopathic doctors I see seem to abide by conventional wisdom. Thank you for what you do…
André Angelantoni says
These may provide more background information for you:
http://chriskresser.com/calcium-supplements-why-you-should-think-twice
http://chriskresser.com/does-dairy-cause-osteoporosis
Pip says
Very finely ground up egg shells added to things like pasta sauce or on your cereal in the morning are a great way to add bio-available calcium to your diet (surprisingly, milk and dairy are not very bio-available sources of calcium).
After using the egg, rinse and dry the shells completely. Drying them in a very low oven is a good way to do this. Then grind the shells up in a coffee grinder or mortar and pestle until they are a fine powder.
Honora says
Constructive advice. Thanks for that. I’ll just need to get past the fact that the neighbours’ free range eggs are covered in poo streaks, Ah well.
sharon says
Elizabeth, for calcium i drink nettle infusion. it contains copious amounts of calcium and other vitamins and minerals. if you do a search online for ‘nourishing nettle infusion’ you’ll fine plenty of information. it tastes quite strongly but there’s way to getting around it with some tweaking. i usually drink it cold, diluted with some water and with fresh lemon juice and grated ginger.
mmc says
Some recommend SILICA for calcium, sayiing it is transformed into it.
Prometheus68 says
Silica transformed into calcium??? I would like to know what biochemical pathway is used to perform nuclear fusion, LOL!!!
Debbie says
Please read Nicholas Kristoff’s column in the New York Times today, and the slew of comments that followed. As usual, as a response to a factory farming article, every commenter is touting some form of vegetarianism. It’s scary. I worry meat may be banned one day.
anna says
Nothing (and nobody) in the world can force me to read Kristoff (and increasingly the NYT, or at least its columnists)
Joe Garma says
I get that “healthy user bias”. Makes sense.
But some studies, such as the “Blue Zone” studies of the long-lived all over the world, do not compare health food shoppers to others, etc, but examine whole societies that maintain a traditional way of eating that are thought to be the reason behind their longevity.
(More on this here: http://www.garmaonhealth.com/diet/blue-zones-longer-life)
There are common traits among these long-lived societies irrespective of where located on the planet.
Some eat meat, but the quantity of it is overwhelmed by veggies, legumes, beans, nuts… plus a big dose of low intensity, constant moving.
I’m glad that Chris is more open to a wider banquet of food than the Paleo archetype, because if the Blue Zoners are an example of which diets support a long and healthy life, it’s one with more than meat and veggies on the table at every meal.
-Joe
Chris Kresser says
Joe,
The Blue Zone studies are problematic, just like the China Study. I’ll post a critique of them in the future.
There were few, if any, traditional cultures that were vegetarian, and anthropological evidence suggests that up to 50% of daily calories for our Paleolithic ancestors came from animal products.
There’s not much support from an evolutionary perspective for a vegetarian diet, and even less for a vegan diet.
Joe Garma says
Appreciate you taking the time to reply, Chris.
Enjoyed your Book Talk Nation interview. Wish there was more time as I noted that there were some pretty interesting questions submitted that the moderator chose not to/didn’t have time to ask… questions that would not be easy to answer via google.
For instance, there was someone seeking your perspective re high fasting blood sugar levels. This was asked by a self-proclaimed Paleo who eschews carbs, and has 5% body fat. But he suffers from some chronic fatigue syndrome and other energy-sapping stuff.
One of your blog posts was very helpful for me to understand that my own high (100) fasting blood sugar number may not be problematic if post meal sugar, triglycerides and hemoglobin A1c tests numbers were good (which they are).
It seems that nuances matter.
-Joe
AP says
Look into potato starch, mine was 100, a week later on ps, 85
Greeksurfer says
hey Joe, I was casually reading the comments and realized you were speaking about my ? during the Book talk nation event:) I’m actually a “patient” of Chris Kresser(one consult, but haven’t been able to get a 2nd consult in several months b/c of his book tour…that is another story) and I am trying to sort out why my fasting glucose is rising despite Paleo. Like yourself, I appreciate the wealth of info that Chris Kresser provides and feel his articles are an amazing resource for people like myself that have been forced into “self treatment” b/c of the failures by the medical system. I’m one of those people that when “healthy”(before chronic illness struck), tried Vegan diets, raw foods, & vegetarianism for many years and performed as a “pro-level” athlete, but looking back I can only hypothesize that I would have performed better with a higher fat diet w/ high quality animal proteins. Unfortunately, I have not realized the amazing turn around that many people realize who undertake the “paleo type” diet, but my case is quite severe(osteoporosis in my 30’s, CFS, Fibro, leaky gut, sjogrens autoimmune, possible Lyme, & more fun diagnoses). However, Chris(during our consult) and my other doctors all proclaim they think I’d be much worse off if I hadn’t started on “strict paleo”…hence, my 5% body fat and fit appearance, despite feeling like death most days with debilitating physical/mental fatigue(used to surf daily, cycle everywhere, travel the globe, never miss work, fitness model, etc..not a “quit on life” type of guy). Certain biomarkers like fasting glucose that are getting worse, progressive bone loss(despite K2 supplementation), are making me rethink if Paleo is actually helping my particular case. I’d trade in the appearance of health that the Paleo diet seems to have provided me for even a 20% improvement in my daily cognition and the energy to simply walk a mile, let alone surf the open seas again(my passion before illness struck..I actually fell deathly in in Indonesia in 15 years ago, in a story eerily similar to Kresser’s..why I was so hopeful he could solve my case). If I were smarter or could just be less brain fogged more often, I could likely utilize all the free and amazingly informative information that Chris Kresser provides(selflessly in my opinion) to resolve my own case…however, I just don’t have that much faith in my brainpower;) Watching Kresser’s meteoric rise has actually been a joy, despite it preventing me from following up with him for my personal case…a true example of good people being rewarded for hard passionate altruistic work. I feel bad, I gently “trolled” Chris during that online forum looking for a way as a patient(I paid a huge consult fee to him and was on a long wait list) to have my questions answered since I have not been able to schedule a follow up with his office. I feel bad b/c in no way did I want to take away from the incredible service he provides so many desperately ill people and those simply hoping to optimize their health, but I was also at a loss of how to get through to him. I realize this is a bit off topic and I apologize. I digress, my glucose might be rising for unrelated reasons and as you said may not be an issue for me..however it is a challenge to explain this to the Naturopaths and MDs I see here in Oregon. Funny anecdote, an OHSU(research hospital here) resident Internal Med who saw me was literally in awe & starstruck that he was “sharing” a patient with Chris Kresser…this is a great sign if allopathic medical students are being reached by Kresser’s message(sadly the student couldn’t put into practice what he learned from following Kresser’s work). I think it is important to note as Chris points out in his new book, that Paleo is not one size fits all and I believe this is the case for most “diets/lifestyles” in general. I also feel as Dr. Terry Wahl’s will attest, diet can help those with major health issues, but if your case is severe like mine, diet alone will not resolve most major health cases. It takes diet in combination with lifestyle change, supplements, medication(i.e. LDN), & community(real>virtual, virtual>zero). I have had many a heated debate with family and friends telling me that my “restrictive” diet obviously isn’t working and I should just eat gluten and “live a little”….of course they are viewing things through the privileged lens of robust health, despite bad eating habits. I’ve also had to bite my tongue when trying to convert my autoimmune friends over from their Vegan diets, realizing that it just isn’t that simple for most. Even if I do overcome my many health ailments(looking less likely as I approach 40), I have promised myself to never proselytize to others about any specific diet that has helped me overcome my own unique health predicament. Chris Kresser’s approach resonates so well with many(including myself) because he seems to be open to new research at all times and does not come off dogmatic, while providing excellent fodder for healthy debate. I wish we could all fast forward into the future and see the long-term double blinded studies that show which particular diet provides health and eternal bliss to all…until then, vegans will fight meat eaters for supremacy in online forums, athletic events, TV/movies/stage;)(MMA fighters: Vegan Mac Danzig vs. nearly all MMA, triathletes:Rich Roll Vs. Ben Greenfield, Famous folk: Bill Clinton/Al Gore/Woody Harrelson/Jayz/Beyonce(Vegans) vs. Matthew Mcconaughey/Megan Fox/Jessica Biel) I think the famous examples of both diets, go a long way in showing how success can be fueled by vastly different sources…without getting into the “moral debate” of either lifestyle, “whatever works” for the individual in my opinion is the best approach. It takes trial and error and it is impossible to take all the “bias” out when judging if an individual is healthy or looks good because of or despite the diet they pursue. Again, I apologize for my all over the place input and somewhat off topic comment… To all those reading who are also desperate to overcome long-term, stigmatized amorphous conditions(i.e. CFS/Fibro/Lyme/autoimmune)…keep advocating for yourself and you are not alone, seek community and GOOOO Vegan or GOOOO Paleo, ha, ha I kid, do what works for you! peace:) Most important, if you have a friend or loved one who is ill or even a stranger, try not to judge…a modicum of compassion can save a person’s life.
charles grashow says
http://www.hellenicjcardiol.com/archive/full_text/2011/5/2011_5_479.pdf
http://www.businessinsider.com/ikaria-greece-longevity-secrets-2012-7?op=1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3051199/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3051199/table/tab2/
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2012/10/ikarian-greek-island-diet-health-benefit
http://realbalance.com/icaria-long-lived-people-and-no-dimentia
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html?_r=0
“Ikarians, by contrast, eat meat on average just five times per month. And Ikarians eat about a quarter as much sugar as Americans do, and very little processed food (although that is beginning to change.) The overall diet is classic Mediterranean. Buettner describes a typical couple’s daily food routine:
[A] breakfast of goat’s milk, wine, sage tea or coffee, honey and bread. Lunch was almost always beans (lentils, garbanzos), potatoes, greens (fennel, dandelion or a spinachlike green called horta) and whatever seasonal vegetables their garden produced; dinner was bread and goat’s milk. At Christmas and Easter, they would slaughter the family pig and enjoy small portions of larded pork for the next several months.
So they’re eating a low-meat, relatively seafood-rich, nutrient-dense diet with plenty of greens and (he emphasizes elsewhere) olive oil. Buettner also mentions a warm beverage they drink which he translates as “mountain tea,” “made from dried herbs endemic to the island,” a rotating, seasonal list that includes wild marjoram, sage, mint, and dandelion leaves. Buetnner had samples of the greens tested in a lab, and they proved to be “rich sources of polyphenols” with “strong antioxidant properties.””
anna says
Well, problems …
-What is classic Mediterranean diet?
– Don’t you think there can be diversity there?
– Don’t you think that “Mediterranean diet” can be some fiction?
– The “Mediterraneans” I’ve met eat meat even in summer in spite of heat. Did you check the climate there including the amount of sun? Did you check their lifestyle? Are you sure that the “Mediterraneans” spend their days and nights in cubicles? Is it possible that Canadians and Norwegians won’t last long on Ikarians” diet? etc.
Chris says
The Ikarians also fast for 150 days a year, and given its proven links with increased health markers, it’s difficult to attribute their longevity to other factors such as dietary macronutrient composition.
teri says
Well, let’s see…
1 – Goat milk: In order to produce milk, goats must have babies. What do they do with the babies? I’m quite certain that at least the males are eaten. Otherwise their island would be overrun with goats by now.
2 – Eating meat 5 times per month: That’s about once a week plus. That’s pretty regular meat consumption, even if it’s in small amounts.
3 – Slaughtering a pig twice a year: You can bet that if they’re going to the trouble to raise and slaughter pigs, they are using as much of the animal as they can. This would lead me to believe that they are probably cooking regularly with the fat from the animal, as well as likely making stocks or soups from the bones.
4 – “relatively seafood rich”: While not mentioned in the snapshot of a typical daily diet, this quote (and the fact that they live on an island) tells me that they are also eating fish and/or shellfish on a regular basis. Last I checked, that is also the meat of an animal.
Does this culture seem to eat less meat than the standard American diet? Yes, but they are far from vegetarian, and definitely not vegan. They also eat far more fresh food than most Americans, and seem to lead far less stressful lives — I would be much more inclined to attribute greater health and/or longer lives to those two factors (along with regular movement, as mentioned by Joe above), than to their non-existent vegetarian diet.
(For clarification, I am responding only to the quoted material above. I have not clicked through and read the links.)
Tara says
The culture who brought us sublime and highly advanced Spiritual practices such as Yoga (observance, not the physical workout) and Ayurveda (the science of self healing) were vegetarian. And they’ve been around for yonks! The wisdom goes beyond studies, and counting vitamin and mineral content. As Vimalananda calls westerners ‘time watchers’ – only able to measure things on the visual plane. It’s funny to watch the veg debate vs the paleo (which there’s a plug a book for on your post). It’s a level of consciousness that evolves over many lifetimes to need very little food and yet be in radiant health, that you hardly need sleep and yet have boundless energy.. and more. Let people eat what THEY are consciously evolved to want or need on their journey. You can’t tell another what is right for them…no matter how many ‘studies’ there are…
JoAnne says
I live in India now, and can say that there is often a visible difference in health between Hindus and Muslims (who are meat eaters). It is visible in facial structure and dental health.
This is especially true in the middle class, because development has brought more processed foods to India, and Hindus buy tofu, for example, which was not really common in India before. There has been some movement away from traditional foods toward refined vegetable oils and boxed foods, low fat stuff like skim milk. And lots of sugar!
Historically, Hindus still ate a lot of dairy in the form of ghee, milk, yogurt, buttermilk, and paneer. While many would not eat eggs, because it’s not considered vegetarian, dairy has been an important staple.
Muslims, on the other hand, eat meat a few times per week, eggs, and also consume a lot of dairy. When goats are slaughtered here, the organ meats are important. My MIL always gave my husband goat kidney or brain if he was getting a cold. All of his siblings, his parents, his 36 aunts and uncles, too-many-to-count cousins, etc, have beautiful smiles and wide faces. No braces needed. Husband was 28 the first time he visited a dentist, and not because of lack of access.
His family was Hindu as recently as my husband’s great great grandfather. Since the family converted to Islam at that time, they have enjoyed good health on a natural diet that includes lots of animal products.
It mirrors many of the observations of Weston Price.
Rich says
You make many assumptions here. Your definition of health is based on being very thin and having the energy to participate in things such as yoga.
Many people care to lead a much more active lifestyle, and the type of diet common for your ‘boundless energy’ would be completely insufficient for those people. I play baseball, basketball, practice parkour, AND do yoga regularly. I have more muscle mass than all vegetarians/vegans I know, and am confident that my lifespan will match any one of theirs. Eating meat does not equal eating an unhealthy diet.
Harry says
You need to take a course in anthropology.
Do you really think women ate the same as men during our evolution ? Women and their children didn’t “hunt” with the men. I would imagine men ate ten times as much meat as women.
If you do some reading, you’ll find reasonable evidence that women ate mostly veggies, roots, nuts and fruits as they walked with their children. Do you really think men in those days would drag home a dead animal for say three miles for the women and children ? And have you ever considered that the ideal diet for a woman maybe quite different from that of a man ?
Well before 10,000 years ago when our current agriculture began, I believe the meat eaten was mostly animals remains left there from recent animal kills by animals…. no bow and arrows then, no knives.
And lastly, what hemispheres are you basing your research on ? You cannot generalize worldwide on the evolution of humans and diet because the climate and environment around the world are so different….and in the USA citizens come from all over the world.
Liz says
You need to take a course in anthropology – this time pay attention, take lots of notes, and leave your sexist and ignorant assumptions out of the classroom.
“You cannot generalize worldwide on the evolution of humans and diet because the climate and environment around the world are so different…” Yet you still state rather decisively that “Women and their children didn’t ‘hunt’ with the men.” Care to provide some evidence of this? Because its insulting to women everywhere and in every time to just assume that women are incapable of killing prey due to lack of testicles.
Say you’re right (you’re not), and women in hunter-gatherer societies never ever hunt WITH men. Doesn’t mean they lack meat! In cultures like the Bushmen of the Kalahari, the men DO, in fact, “drag home a dead animal for say three miles for the women and children”. Because many foraging societies were and are fiercely egalitarian, the idea of the men keeping all the meat to themselves would be unthinkable (see Marshall Sahlins’ paper, “Notes on the Original Affluent Society”).
But lets not stop there! The women GATHER many foods beyond fruits, nuts and tubers. They also gather ostrich eggs and a huge variety of insects – hello protein! (see Brian Morris, Insects and human life). Now, this is just an example of women in a friggin desert! Imagine the possibilities in other bioregions. What about women’s psychological or physiological makeup renders them incapable of trapping, catching, killing, and “gathering” rodents, reptiles, birds, small primates, insects, fish, crustaceans, molluscs, eggs of all kinds, or even “animals remains left there from recent animal kills by animals”.
So thanks, Harry, for informing everyone here that us poor girls must have a different diet because we just don’t have the wherewithal to feed ourselves. Next time, let the ladies speak for themselves.
FrankG says
I’m just a guy but I was cheering you on all through this comment Liz 🙂
Take a look at even extant hunter-gatherers like the Australian aboriginals: to see women taking an active (if not the leading) role in gathering animal-based sources of fat and protein such as lizards, fish, eggs, birds, witchetty grubs etc…
Mina says
Wooo Hooo Liz! I couldn’t ahve said it better!
bcflyfisher says
I agree that “man the hunter” is grossly overstated. The vast, vast majority of our evolutionary history was probably spent as omnivorous scavengers. It’s quite likely that plant matter, including starchy tubers, made up a significant portion of our diet for more than a million years. We would have gladly dined on carrion when we found it but fighting off the owner would have been a dangerous game, one we certainly wouldn’t have been dabbling in a million years ago.
As for genetic differences around the world, in the context of human evolution, I wonder whether the timeline really is sufficient to have altered the framework of our nutritional needs. Homo sapien DNA existing in geographically isolated pockets is a relatively new phenomenon and one which is slowly ceasing to be relevant except in the most extreme locations.
JanC says
Just 7,000 years ago the cave dwellers in Spain (who had dark skin and blue eyes) were lactose intolerant and unable to digest starches.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25885519
The article goes on to say that the diet was mostly protein (they omitted to mention the fat, but I doubt that the fat was wasted).
We are still learning a great deal about the diets of early people. Those people from the Spanish caves had not yet discovered agriculture. Hunter-gatherers in other parts of the world, no doubt, may have had a diet that was largely starch – and by that time possibly largely grains – but we can’t make blanket statements about the diets of early peoples the world over. We do know, however, that very early humans ate the fatty and soft parts of killed animals and this enabled their brains to grow. Cooking may well have started 1.9 million years ago, making meat easier to eat (Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human. Wrangham). It’s not that easy to chew a piece of muscle meat. Early people would have been able to consume more nutrient-dense calories this way.
In a programme I watched about modern-day hunter-gatherers, the men ate the parts of the animal that would go off the quickest – the organ meat – and took the rest back to the village to share.
Ananth says
Youre absolutely right, some people are really ok with vegan diets, but some cannot be properly nourished without enough meat…. Im highly sensitive to even little of carbohydrates/starch stuff…. personally, i was born with less birth weight, i was naturally susceptible to many deficiencies, i cannot take chances, i need the meat.
Cappy says
Reference?
abandoned cubicle says
Why do you need evolutionary evidence? Why are we so convinced our paleo ancestors knew exactly what to eat to live to 100?
Sometimes our dog likes to eat newspapers. That doesn’t mean he should. Quit pretending our ancestors had all the answers. They were dumber than rocks, not much smarter than Fido. And their life expectancies and life styles reflected as much.
Matt says
What about K2 as well?
Eugenia says
Not needed, as long as these veg*ns are eating natto, the food with the most K2 in existence. 99.9% of them aren’t eating it though. 😉
charles grashow says
@Chris
Why have you changed you position on white potatoes and white rice? I thought they were “safe” starches that were okay to eat.
Kevin Geary says
Thanks for this Chris — it’s a topic I really feel strongly about. I understand if people are concerned about animal welfare but destroying their body and their health is not the solution.
anna says
Particularly destroying the bodies and health of children. I suspect that at a certain moment the law will have to interfere.
Personally, I’ve met only one vegan (sorry ex-vegan) who is decent enough not to put his two cats on a vegan diet.
Katie says
Only one vegan that was decent enough to not make their cats eat vegan as well? That’s a scary statistic to observe…
Animal welfare is SO important, but it’s true, human welfare is also important. Why do people put animals before themselves and name themselves selfless? Especially when they’re just taking away the food supply from the herbivores? Their bodies are a lot better at energy and nutrient conservation (although despite that, their lifespans are often shorter, might I add)
Cows are cute, chickens are cute, but I feel there’s a balance and all living creatures understand it. It’s part of being an Earthling.
Annette says
You’re right, these people should put themselves before animals- i mean, just LOOK at how malnourished they are! https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.651446311583081.1073741833.452441044816943&type=3
Katie says
Annette, being malnourished may not show on the outside. These people could look great but could croak any second. Just because the car’s blinker light isn’t going off, doesn’t mean everything’s good.
I would also like to know what exactly they’re taking to supplement loss? Are they eating rice, potatoes, wheat, soy, beans? How about those vegan powders with a bunch of ingredients in them?
Could they do this living off the land? If society wasn’t able to float their lifestyle could they actually obtain this on their own?
anna says
Yes, my sentence was misleading. I noticed the problem, but there is no “edit” button here. I thought that my comment didn’t deserve additional corrective comment.
I just know only one ex-vegan. An he is pretty decent. I don’t know about others.
Still Learning says
I have come across this article interesting to say the least ….
http://jb.asm.org/content/195/9/1902.full
Erica Martell says
I’d feel better about this if your article said “Please familiarize yourself with the process by which your meat gets to you (i.e. they just discovered men having sex with cows in an Idaho dairy.) More than ten million pounds of rotten beef has been recalled in the past week or two alone. The alternative, happy slaughter, is a myth. All animals fear death, know it’s coming, and don’t go willingly to it. Then you are truly offering your readers a service. Then they can honorably make up their own minds. Or they can take a vitamin or two instead. Otherwise your article is self-serving. I know you have drilled down to the micro-nutrient value of everything, but most people don’t optimize their lives to that extent anyway. Everyone is deficient in many things, starting with Vit. D, so laying that, to people who don’t know better, at the foot of veganism, is disingenuous because you know that is the case.
hrenney says
here here!
Janelle says
Well said!
Neil says
What relevance does the fact that a few perverted people had sex with cows in one American state. I’m from Australia. Does this mean that we omnivores should avoid carrots, zucchinis, cucumbers, bananas and the like for the obvious (‘wink wink’) connotations these may have? As to the comment on spooled food, do what I did for most of last year and spend some time in third world countries to see the quality and nutritional value of fruits and vegetables in many of those countries. It is enough to make you want to eat meat!
Hope says
Cows are pumped full antibiotics. They are milked with special machines. They’re fed absolute crap. Not the natural stuff their suppose to be fed. Then their utters end up infected from all of that. So of course theirs puss that the company isn’t filtering out of the cow since they’re allowed to have so much pus in a container of milk. So what you’re drinking is absolutely disgusting. Another fact: Our intestines are 3 times longer than any other omnivores or carnivores, so while we eat fruits and vegetables they go smoothly and quickly through our body. But the reason people get cancers is because meat moves slowly through our body and rots. just like if you sat some meat in a really warm room it would rot. And it sits in there for at least 48 hours. Other animals don’t get cancers but we do. and that’s because we eat this stuff that we shouldn’t. Meat isn’t something we’re suppose to put into our bodies. Please research Freelee the Banana girl on youtube. She fallows a fruit based diet and she’s extremely healthy. She has also post a video of a speech given by a vegan who will tell you the same things I told you here. It’s definitely worth watching.
Katie says
Meat doesn’t cause cancer. What could be in the meat can. Antibiotics, growth hormones, whatever the cows eat we eat. If the cow ate GMO corn, we’re also eating GMO corn. Same goes for the vegetation. If it’s GMO or smothered in pesticides, same poo different pile. You know who’s actually pumped full of pus, hormones and antibiotics? US HUMANS. If you think the cow is really bad off, you should see the stuff they’re giving humans. Do you even know what those doctors are giving you, really? I mean, some of us even take a pill to affect our very ability to produce children and instinctively find a viable mate to produce healthy children with – AND NO ONE SEEMS TO QUESTION IT.
“Our intestines are 3 times longer than any other omnivores or carnivores, so while we eat fruits and vegetables they go smoothly and quickly through our body. But the reason people get cancers is because meat moves slowly through our body and rots.”
Who is to say it goes smoothly and quickly, or that it’s a good thing it does? That means you may not be absorbing everything you need from it. Also means that if meat is actually ROTTING in your intestines, you’d be feeling it a lot sooner! If your stomach acid is in working order, you are chewing properly, and aren’t impairing your stomach in ways such as diluting with water before a meal or being very stressed, digesting meat in reasonable portions should not be an issue.
We are not lions or wolves. We cannot eat JUST meat. We have canines, stomach acid, a small and large intestine for a reason. It’s true their stomach acid is 20x stronger and intestines are shorter, but they also can go a very long time before they have to eat again and they eat in large chunks without proper chewing. Keeps them fuller for longer.
If you tried to go and live off the land right now as a vegan or vegetarian, and this is without your supplements, you probably wouldn’t fair well. Especially if you live no where near the equator, and that’s a fact you can see with every native tribe that lives off the land. Even within these tribes, they actually value the bones and fat the most, as the marrow contains many AMAZING enzymes (like the ones in the home made chicken soup when you’re feeling sick), and the saturated fat containing the necessary energy to keep going for a long time. The meat they ate last is the meat most people try and buy today such as “lean meats” and muscle tissues.
Stress/adrenaline from the adrenal glands shut down digestive enzymes so you can’t break food down properly, something of which we see in this society today. So much stress that it just further promotes the idea that being a vegan is the smartest thing to do but is it really if you gotta take ANY supplements to make up for the lack of bioavailability?
Cancer, by the way, is inflammation. Instead of blaming meat (ludicrous, btw) you should be looking at undigested sugars from carbohydrates, starch (potatoes and rice) and refined sugars. Yeast causes cells to inflame, which allows cancer to tamper with the mitochondria of our cells and take over. As yeast dies off, it releases toxins into the blood stream and if a sufficient amount of die off gets to your brain, you’re basically dead. With a natural healthy balance of organic vegetables and free range meat, this isn’t typically a problem. When you’re doing a yeast cleanse, you actually have to avoid eating fruit and raw vegetables because of the natural yeast cultures on the vegetables. Sharks don’t get cancer, and what do they eat? Fish. Meat. Not plants. They’re also the rulers of the sea and highly muscular. When they’re not hunting, they’re also gentle creatures.
The paleo lifestyle has been working absolute wonders for me and I’m actually seeing myself recover from chronic fatigue, but seeing posts like these infuriate me because you’re doing nothing more than perpetuating the notion that we aren’t supposed to be eating something that we have been consuming for thousands of years and if it was really bad…
WE WOULD NOT BE HERE. HUMAN RACE WOULD HAVE CROSSED THE FINISH LINE CALLED EXTINCTION. We did not evolve over hundreds of thousands of years to eat a carrot.
I’m only 20 years old and it bothers the crap out of me that every aspect of our food supply has been tampered with and that the food guides promoted by government appointed nutritions are saying 25% of our diet at least should be grains, and now there’s people bashing meat because there’s big corporations that want to make a quick buck at the consumers expense by compromising the treatment and integrity of animals. If this were 100 years ago, the hardcore vegans would literally have no argument other than meat might have been expensive if you couldn’t afford it.
Anyways, to top off everything, I highly recommend checking this out.
“The Ideal Human Diet” a presentation by a naturopathic doctor named Dr. Paul Theriault
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK8ls4-Rs1I
Question EVERYTHING. Question me, question yourself, question what you think is right / wrong. Don’t ever assume you have all the answers and put ideologies aside to find out what your body TRULY needs. Be realistic, be grounded – this is a lacking trait in the vegan community, and I can’t respectfully stay quiet and let someone impressionable think you’re absolutely right and possibly ruin their health.
Nancy says
Awesome post, Katie! Good luck with Paleo. I am a fellow traveler. It is working wonders for me.
einstein says
thanks katie. your post made my day. so young and so reasonable. definitely on the right track. i am glad for you.
Richard says
How do you know meat does not cause cancer? Well, what if it is excess animal protein that causes cancer….would you feel better with that and just continue eating all the meat you want along with dairy and eggs?
Honora says
It might be all about the genotypes: 3 vegan women did a traverse of the South Island of New Zealand a few years ago. (Mana Wahine). 2 did very well but one started to fade and had to address a required change in her regime. They were eating the same food.
I have a heterozygous mutation affecting 1298ac, which along with other mutations I have, affects the methylation pathways. It’s crucial to have a functional amount of Vit B12 and folate to offset this. It’s pretty much standard for everyone to have some form of mutation affecting methylation.
I’m also wondering about some amino acids such as taurine being in short supply on a plant based diet but need to research this a bit more. I know cats can’t manufacture taurine and need it in their food. I think having a look at Dr Terry Wahl’s input on the same email from Chris says it all…
John says
It’s a complete myth that meat rots in your colon. It’s completely digisted by the hydrocloric acid in your stomach. Plant matter, on the other hand, does that. It is what’s broken down by the bacteria in your intestine. This is the definition of rot. So it’s not plant matter that rots in your colon, it’s plant matter. However, that in itself isn’t a reason to not eat plants, either. Many people have found benefits to feeding their gut bacteria with resistant starch. So any “rotting” action in your colon could very well be a good thing.
John says
*I meant it’s not meat, it’s plant matter.
bcflyfisher says
How dare you inject logic and reason into this discussion?! 🙂
But of course you’re correct. Meat gets dealt with promptly in the stomach. It’s plant matter that makes the long (actually, relatively short) journey through our digestive system, “rotting” along the way. But that’s ok. As you stated, we have wonderful healthy colonies of bacteria that exist in perfect harmony with that plant matter. We evolved alongside animal and plant foods.
We are omnivores and our physiology clearly demonstrates that. Trying to outsmart our genes by replacing our ancestral food sources with pills may sound good on paper but I question the effectiveness.
einstein says
true, and that’s why nobody gets bloated after eating meat, but there are many types of vegetables that blow you up like a balloon. those bacteria and the rotting process do produce a lot of gas…:-)
Richard says
Is it also a myth according to you that people who eat large quantities of meat have a higher risk of colon cancer?
I would like to see a reference to the study verifying that…
Karla Smith says
“Other animals don’t get cancers but we do”. Wrong, other animals, fed on a western diet (cat and dog food) do get cancer and cats are carnivores with short guts, back to the drawing board for that theory. & when stomach acid has a Ph of 1-2 I don’t think meat just sits there and rots somehow.
Mina says
Are you serious when you say something like meat “rots” in the intestine. That it is similar to sitting out in a warm room?! Did you never take biology, human anatomy, a health class for God’s sake?! The intestines are breaking down the meat and the vegetables and anything else you put in there, starting with the saliva, continuing with the stomach acids etc. Come on, let’s at least be half educated in our comments?
Kim says
OMG! Seriously? Shoulda known the 30 banana’s a day nuts would show up defending their bizzare views. You just can’t get it through your nutrient deficient brains that there are actually livestock that don’t exist in feedlots. There are in fact, herds of cows and bison that graze off the grass like they are suppose to. You might try downloading the TED talk by Sir Allan Savory: http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change.html
Richard says
And they go right to the slaughter house from your dream meadows? I do not think there are many that do that….the owners prefer to fatten them up before slaughter and also give them plenty of antibiotics or worse if they need it to sell them.
einstein says
your comment reveals such ignorance, that I wouldn’t know where to start educating you beyond the scope of a short reply. no wonder so many people are up to their necks in sh… it is not about food. the root cause of all misery is ignorance. so sad….
Peter Johnson says
Thank you for pointing out what I already knew. It is unfortunate that some systems of slaughter put animals through more distress than is necessary and I certainly don’t believe in “happy slaughter” – a term I haven’t actually heard before. But I’m ok with the fact that animals face some distress in slaughter. I can see no way of avoiding a certain amount of distress in the process. Minimization of that distress is desirable. So know that at least one person is informed and will happily continue eating meat.
Josh says
Sorry but your comment epitomises whats wrong with the human race – animals are living beings too. Meat eating is socially and culturally cultivated. It was a survival tactic in the early ages but there is no reason why people should consume it now. I think it boils down to people who just lack the foresight, intellect and compassion to understand the bigger picture.
John says
Plants are also living things. And they also try to defend themselves from being eaten by employing a variety of anti-nutrients. The truth is, no living thing wants to end up as food, but we all do eventually.
Luna says
That’s not entirely true. Fruits (and foods that we call veggies but are actually fruits like cucumbers and tomatoes) actually do want to be eaten. Anything with seeds or a pit wants to be eaten; that’s how they reproduce. People/animals eat the fruit of the plant, run off somewhere else, a little while later the seeds are eliminated along with some awesome fertilizer, or they eat the fruit and toss the pit aside, which can then grow into a new plant.
Aside from that, more plants die in order for people to eat meat then if you just eat plants. It takes a lot of plant calories to get a cow to size. Less animals and plants are harmed if we just eat plants, instead of filtering them through another animal. While some degree of suffering must be present in the way our world works, you would think minimizing it should be everyone’s duty. And while everything ends up food eventually, it’s pretty messed up that we bring billions of creatures into existence every year for the sole purpose of being food.
Honora says
I was talking yesterday with a farmer who homekills his animals for food. I mentioned how someone at work recalled how the pigs would get distressed on her farm early in the morning that her father had in mind to slaughter one of them. He said in response to this that he’d often observed his flock of sheep would surround the one that he had chosen to kill that day. Hmmm….
Bea Elliott says
Thanks for your eloquent rebuttal… It sure saved me the time doing it myself. I see this as a self serving article as well. I’m seeing a pattern emerge that every time there’s a video/expose’ released some “health” site posts the disadvantages of being vegan. I’m beginning to think it’s part of damage control. And I wouldn’t put it past them…
anna says
” All animals fear death, know it’s coming, and don’t go willingly to it:
And you know this how? Are you sure they will never die if we stop eating them?
Isa says
The fear of death is one of the least problems with modern meat production, I would say. The “life” these animals have before is so full of suffering and cruelty it doesn’t even deserve this term.
But people continue to be egoistic and care only about good taste and stuff.
Helen says
That rather depends on the farmer, my meat (I can go and view it on the hoof ) spends up to 3 years grazing on grass and clover, never kept in barns over winter as it is a native hardy breed.
Winter it feeds on grass or silage.
I too spent several years eating as a vegetarian, my health in December took a very serious turn and I became very ill. I went onto a veggie and meat based diet and am much improved. I have no choice when it comes to eating meat but I do have a choice where my meat comes from and how it has been reared. Carefully reared and slaughtered in a small local slaughter house where they believe in minimising stress, animals are kept by farmers to make a living and the good ones do it well. They don’t keep them to make the fields look pretty
FrankG says
And if the vegans had their way, what kind of a life do you think that cows, pigs, sheep, goats, chickens etc… would have? NONE! Do you think the farmers would keep them on as pets if they had no value to us? Stop living in a fantasy and get real
Annette says
So if someone put you in captivity, exploited your reproductive organs by artificially inseminating you, then took away your babies so they could kill and eat them, are you meant to be grateful that at least your babies got to ‘live’? Are THEY meant to be grateful? Go and eat all the animals that are sitting in the farms- but stop forcing them to reproduce so you can eat their offspring!
FrankG says
Who said anything about gratitude?
I may be grateful to be a small part of this life-cycle/ecosystem but I don’t live in some kind of a Disneyfied fantasy world of talking bunnies and doe-eyed deer.
I am against factory-farming. I am against cruelty and disrespect for life… yes including humans — my own species! I am also against vast mono-cultures that are sucking up and wasting natural resources at an alarming rate.
But instead of whining and complaining, I am actually doing something about it.. not least of which is voting with my dollar; by supporting local, seasonal sustainable sources.
If you insist on adopting an unrealistic attitude to the facts of life, then please feel free to “stop the world and let you off”… just don’t expect that everyone else is barmy enough to jump ship with you.
Annette says
“I am against cruelty and disrespect for life” LISTEN to yourself. Here I stand, vegan since birth, 30 years later- WITHOUT EVER having to have gone out of my way to harm or kill to fill my stomach and fuel my body. And you have the hide to claim to respect life? Give me a break- and don’t ever say that to a vegan again unless you want to be laughed at! What a joke.
FrankG says
So what life have you taken in your 30 years.. or what has been taken on your behalf?
Because you cannot live without taking life form another life-form on this planet.
Maybe you subscribe to the “we are all equal… but some are more equal than others” school of thought?
If I am a joke then you are an hypocrite.
Annette says
Life as in SENTIENT life with complex nervous systems and the ability to experience pain. I’m sorry that you need people to point out the obvious without having the ability to see it by yourself.
FrankG says
You are really showing your ignornace now Annette, if you think that the dark-ages human-defined idea of sentience and complex nervous system are all that count these days. Do you really have no comprehension of just how complex and intertwined all life on this planet is and how even plants are now recognised to have reactions and “behaviours”..?
Time to get with the program and do some learning.. although that might end up undermining your dogmatic approach to life.
Even accepting your contentions about sentience and complex nervous systems, what about the animals which were “displaced” so that your plants could be grown? Or those poisoned — directly or indirectly — by pesticides and other chemicals used to speed their growth? Or those killed during the harvest, storage, processing and transportation?
Just so long as you can can bury your head in the sand or put your fingers in your ears so you don’t have to hear the screams personally eh?
Like I said.. hypocrisy.
Cappy says
Frank,
The number of plants grown for your food is 15 to 40 times the number used to grow my food. You seem to lack the basic understanding that the animals you eat for food eat a lot of plants. A lot of that in grains. And those grains are bought from countries and the poor there cannot afford to buy it at the prices offered from the meat industry. So, your meat animal is fed well, while the poor starve.
Animal agriculture uses more biocides than any other industry. And if farmers don’t use intensive farming techniques, they have to use much greater quantities of land which displaces more wildlife, increases green house gases, increases soil erosion, spreads water pollution, and increases the demand for more grazing land which is the primary reason why rain forests are being cut down.
Your head is the one buried in the sand. You are fighting tooth and nail to defend your atrocities and using every logical fallacy you can find to avoid looking at the evidence. It is out their, and you have to make a conscious decision to remain ignorant.
FrankG says
I could easily say pretty much every word for word right back at you Cappy…
Unlike you, I actually KNOW where my food comes from and NONE of the meat I buy is fed anything other than grasses and hay… stuff which is indigestible to humans (‘cos were not herbivores in case you missed that basic lesson in biology), stuff indeed, which can grown on land totally unsuitable for growing grains or other plants… but stuff which herbivores can efficiently convert into valuable food for humans, while simultaneously creating new topsoil and depositing biomass which helps in the next growth of even more grasses.
Christopher says
What a joke is right, Annette. You are a total hypocrite! The self-righteous whiff of the vegan reigns supreme with you. One cannot live on this planet without harming or killing for your food and fuel. To think otherwise is utterly delusional.
AP says
If you think your lifestyle is less intrusive to nature, I think you need to re-examine how many lives are lost through agriculture. bugs/rodents/birds/pesticides?
Karin says
Hi Annette,
I noticed that you state that you are a vegan since birth, and was wondering if you would consider responding to my challenge posted below, which asks for a 3 day vegan meal plan for children that would fulfill all of their nutritional requirements. Thanks!
P.S. Organic agriculture is currently completely dependent on animal-based agriculture.
Dila says
Both plants and animals are alive and capable of feeling pain. If plants don’t scream when you cut them because they don’t have vocal apparatus it doesn’t mean they don’t feel pain, it doesn’t mean they want to die. Trees drop their fruit with their babies (seeds) inside in order to propagate, not to satisfy your hunger. They know animals will eat them and spread the seeds. Do you plant the seeds of the fruit you have eaten? Fact is- you kill or let others kill every day so you can continue living. It is difficult to accept but to state otherwise is delusional and hypocritical. Open your eyes and be honest with yourself. Thank food on your plate for their sacrifice. And don’t think you are better than others because you don’t eat meat.
OnTheFence says
As per another post: Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Plants just don’t have the biology – brain/pain sensors/organs which enable them to see, hear, taste, etc. like animals do.
FrankG says
So because plants “sense” and “react” to the word around them in a different way than your simplistic mind can readily comprehend, that makes it OK for you to kill and eat them? Nice rationalization there buddy 😛
PBS Nature: What Plants Talk About… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MOe5clOtI
Mina says
Annette, you my poor thing have never worked in a vegetable processing plant. Your delicious vegetables come chock full of rodents, reptiles, birds and insects that are killed, some gruesomely, in the mass harvesting of said vegetables. Threshers and other harvesting machines mangle the little creatures. Like someone else said some of us live in the real world, life does not exist without death. You have 1st world problems and have never had to scramble for sustenance. Be happy you live in this country where you can make up fantasies about food. Fantasies have no place in most of this world,
juliet says
1. Let’s say you kill 10 animals (rodents, birds, etc) per kilogram of plant food. You need more plant food to feed livestock than to feed humans, therefore you kill even more little animals.
2. Just because animals used for dairy and meat exist only because of us, doesn’t mean that we should exploit them. Maybe it would be better for them not to ever live?
Christina says
You may not agree with the way certain animals may be slaughtered but there are definitely humane ways of going about this task. Do your own research. Find a sustainable farm that practices the correct methods. This society is extremely lazy. All that most people want to do is roll out of bed and have everything prepared for them. Do the homework. Whether your meat is grass fed, pastured raised, organic or from the store butcher (hopefully, the first two would be your choice) you will get the proper nutrients needed. This of course depends on the bioavailability of the nutrients and proper digestion. (Digestion is so, so important.)
What you also need to understand here is that plants are alive too. All plants have a natural defense mechanism. They do not want to be eaten, by humans or by animals. When humans ingest plants (vegetables and fruits) they are ingesting many of the goitrins (goitrogens, thiocyanates, flavonoids (soy flavonoids and isoflavones, millet flavonoids and quercetin to name a few.) These are naturally occurring chemicals that disrupt the digestive system as well as normal thyroid function, pancreatic function, kidney function, etc. etc. Ruminant animals have 3 to 5 stomachs that assist in the digestion of these so called vegetable goitrins. We are not ruminant animals. We are omnivores, true, but we are mostly carnivores. Need I say more. Vegetables are important and provide us with beneficial nutrients (especially when cooked, soaked and fermented because here most of the goitrins can be removed, except for soy. Cooking, soaking and fermenting soy will never destroy the goitrogenic activity of soy isoflavones.)
After all that, the point that I am trying to make, is that when one continuously kills the plant, one disrupts the soil and life cycle of the plant and therefore one disrupts the food source of our ruminant animals. Animals need plants for nourishment and humans need animals for survival…There have been many studies on how man can survive on protein alone…to date there have been no studies of man surviving on only vegetables only.
Eat some pasture fed chicken (dark meat especially) or a grass fed burger seasoned to perfection – minus the bun of course. That is an entirely different topic of discussion. After all we are protein and without it we will incur malnutrition and tremendous nutrient deficiencies.
Walter says
Perfectly stated Christina. Obviously people do not understand the laws of nature and how all the inhabitants of the earth play a crucial role in it.
Also, we must be weary of feeding into the industrial-agricultural machine. After all they are only concerned about profits, whether it be from genetically modified organisms or the prescription drugs that you will be taking to help rid yourself of the disease that has been inflicted. Sadly, the vegetarian/vegan lobbyists blindly support the overzealous production of crops( especially rice, soy,wheat, etc) resulting in the destruction of the soil.
Cappy says
Walter,
Around 80% of the soy and corn produced is fed to animals who are then slaughtered for consumption. In many poor nations, there food is bought to feed to animals leaving them starving. Animal agriculture is the single largest contributor to greenhouse gases, soil erosion, soil depletion, water pollution, and air pollution.
Grass-fed and other so-called healthy meats are even more destructive to the environment. More land is needed, more greenhouse gases produced, more water used, more soil erosion, and far less sustainable.
JoAnne says
That assertion is not true. There are many biodynamic farms (like the kind run by Joel Salatin) that do not damage the environment in any way, shape, or form. Where did you get your information? Here is an organization dedicated to it that can explain why it is better for the environment to practice farming this way: https://www.biodynamics.com/biodynamics.html
Cappy says
http://blogs.reuters.com/environment/2010/04/08/grass-fed-beef-packs-a-punch-to-environment/
Plenty more info on the internet.
ALL forms of farming damage the environment in some way. At the very least, you are displacing wild life. However, animal agriculture is not sustainable. If everyone ate grass fed beef, we would need to cut down the rain forests at an even faster rate than we do now to create more grazing land. Yes, that is right, meat demand is the single largest cause of destruction of the rain forest.
The amount of plant-food is over 40 times the amount produce by grass-fed beef on the same size land.
Meat is in no way sustainable. Those claiming sustainable, healthy, or happy meat are the least sustainable. Yes, they are liars.
You have to ask yourself, is killing a sentient animal, starving the poor, and destroying the environment really worth a few moments of pleasure to eat something that will significantly increase your risk to all the major diseases? There is nothing in meat that cannot be better obtained from plant sources.
Oh, and I would google the author. There are a lot of bad reviews. I find it ironic that he talks about vegans being deficient in nutrients, but most of the reviews are him prescribing many very expensive supplements to his clients. I have been vegan for 9 years and I don’t take any supplements. I get all the vitamins I need from a plant-based, whole-foods diet.
Annette says
He also thinks that nuts and seeds are THE highest source of magnesium and encourages magnesium supplements! Unfortunately people like him will always have a following, because when presented with a new, challenging idea, the vast majority of people will spend all of their time and energy defending their current beliefs and only a small handful embrace the idea as something serious to consider. The author clearly lies in the vast majority, and so do his followers. It is truly a shame that so few people experience the benefits of a whole food plant based diet. It really is a higher bar, and one hard to meet on the sort of diet promoted by this author.
Honora says
I read an article on a vegan website linking to research that said vegans adapted to low input of B12 by recycling what they had very efficiently so it took about 20 years to develop B12 deficiency. With my genotype indicated a slightly increased risk of Parkinson, one great aunt who suffered from that disease and my father and his 2 sisters becoming demented, I’m not taking the chance, thanks.
Christopher says
All forms of human activity, particularly in the form of contemporary civilization, harms the environment in some way. Farming is just one of many practices that wreck our planet but practicing traditional agriculture and husbandry is far less damaging than factory farming, etc. No solution will really make a jot of difference given the overpopulation on this planet and the overconsumption in general by the privileged few.
Tam says
Cappy- thank you. You are awesome. It bothers me so much that meat eaters got to try and tear us down. Seriously? Cause we have compassion for animals, and care about the environment? Everyone dies. You’re not getting out of it. I choose to be kind to the world around me as much as I can. And since I eat everyday, I choose to eat with compassion.
Annette says
How many of these biodynamic farms do you think we would need to replace intensive farming for our growing population? What about in 50 or 100 years from now? Where will we find all this land? On another planet?
Allan Balliett says
It’s important to make it clear that Joel Salatin is NOT a biodynamic farmer. Joel is a biological farmer. There is an explicit definition of biodynamic farming and joel misses most of the major points This is not a criticism of Joel; he produces great food and husbands the land, making it better thru farming instead of worse. I just ask that you follow the link you shared and make sure you know what biodynamic farming is. It usually produces better food than Joel’s method can.
Walter says
Cappy,
First and foremost, I do not support “factory farms” and secondly, you obviously did not read, let alone, comprehend anything Christina wrote. You seem to lack the understanding of basic biochemistry, the digestive system, and how nutrients are absorbed and utilized in the body(these subjects are insanely beyond the scope of these posted comments). Your comments pertaining to sustainable farming practices are ridiculously and grossly devoid of facts. Plowing and turning over vast acres of land exposes the soil to the elements of wind, sun, and rain to name a few. Too much exposure destroys the microorganisms and many other components rendering the soil depleted of its nutrients. The practice of adding manure and composted matter into the soil is one of the absolute best ways, if not the best, to enrich and give back desperately needed nutrients. Mono-cropping of our lands has devastated ecosystems. Take a look at what soy,rice,wheat and corn production alone has done to the environment in places like China, the Middle east, South america, etc. Hell, look what it has done here in the states. Nutrient deprived, dead soil is the result. Instead of embracing sustainable methods, chemical fertilizers and a host of pesticides and herbicides are administered. Do some research into the conservation methods of the Native American Indians, particularly those that inhabited parts of California. It is quite impressive. They embraced the symbiotic relationship between animals, plants, and humans. They understood natures cycle of life and consumed both plant and animal. Also, research the history of the “agricultural revolution”. You will find that the plow and sickle has caused countless wars( land grabbing), enslaved and displaced millions of people(and animals for that matter), and destroyed entire ecosystems. Every time “modern” diets and food items have been thrust upon traditional cultures, the outcome is always devastating. By the way, the lands being cleared in the Amazon region are for the corporate-industrial factory farms, but a larger percentage are being cleared for corn, soy, and sugar cane to name a few. I could go on but what is the point? I embrace the natural symbiotic relationship between plants, animals, and humans as it should be.
.
Tam says
Walter, are you talking about permaculture? Where plants, animals, and humans all contribute to the environment and benefit from the land. That’s the way farming should be done always! Everyone benefits and nothing is exploited. Organic farming today, although it’s better than going the pesticide route, really only serves itself and doesn’t give back to the land. The whole system needs overhauling. I agree with the natural symbiotic relationship of all living creatures….we’re all connected. But I don’t think that this connectivity proves I should eat meat….I choose to live as non-harming as I can to get by.
bcflyfisher says
Quote: “Grass-fed and other so-called healthy meats are even more destructive to the environment. More land is needed, more greenhouse gases produced, more water used, more soil erosion, and far less sustainable.”
You should come to BC and see how we grass-feed our cattle. Nothing you’re saying applies here.
I eat the best quality animal products I can afford, raised as humanely as possible, as locally as possible. I buy my beef from the guy who raised it and I catch my own wild salmon. My eggs are a store-bought brand but I’ve visited the farm that produces them.
The fact is, nothing we do to feed our species on a global scale is going to be completely sustainable any more. Agriculture allowed us to grossly overpopulate the planet. Veg*ns say there are so many people that eating meat is no longer an option. Their solution? Agriculture. *sigh*
Drumroll says
Who’d have thought? Raising animals for grazing and meat consumption can actually restore grasslands and lower the effect of greenhouse gas emissions?
Yep.
FrankG says
Agreed Walter… I respect ALL life on this planet (including humans) and ALL life shares a common genome, animals AND plants.
Living requires recycling *life*.. there is no other way to sustain it, other than borrowing it for a time from another living thing (including humans)… I daresay I am being eaten alive by microbes as I type these words and let’s not forget that the bacteria in my gut outnumber the “human” cells in my body by a factor of 10 to 1!
If others choose to put some forms of life “higher” in importance based on something arbitrary like they have big cute eyes, or a face, or a mother, then I guess that is their choice — but to dress that up as science, or as rationale for health, or saving the planet is where they cross the line and start becoming barmy. I don’t share their views so don’t try to force it one me.
Do you honestly think that a cow is more important than an 1,000 year old giant sequoia??? Nonsense… just think of the mini-ecosystem living in the tree’s branches, let alone sustained by its roots, or the oxygen it produces, or the water it catches and slows down from becoming run-off etc.. etc…
Sure we humans need to clean up out act and become more respectful of ALL lifeforms (including ourselves), or we risk killing ourselves off… the planet will go on just fine without us.
And yes that includes working out (or rediscovering) sustainable ways of feeding ourselves (on borrowed life)…
In my world-view, that includes livestock and animal products; because I care about my own health, the health of my family and the health of the ecosystem which sustains us.
Annette says
Going by this logic we shouldn’t put human life above apples and lemons and figs?
FrankG says
ALL life is important… we are all part of a interconnected web… an ecosystem.
Every day researchers find new connections hitherto unknown. Who is to say how important apples, lemons and figs (or something that feeds or otherwise interacts with them) are to human life?
What annoys me is the attitude I get from vegans that other animal’s lives are more important than humans… just so long as those other animals have faces, cute eyes and mothers of course… who cares about ants, worms, microbes and all those yucky things… ewww!
Annette says
“What annoys me is the attitude I get from vegans that other animal’s lives are more important than humans” How so, because you think humans are sacrificing their health for the well-being of animals? I certainly have not sacrificed anything. My grandfather certainly didn’t either. He hadn’t touched animal products since the week he was diagnosed with liver cancer 25 years ago and was given 4 months to live. A whole- food plant based diet rid him of his cancer and allowed him to thrive for another 25 years before a car accident. HE certainly didn’t make any sacrifices for HIS health. And there are so so so many others.
FrankG says
And what was he eating for all those years prior to the “whole- food plant based diet”???
Rich says
Is this trick question? Of course we should put human life above fruit.
Nature is objective. Nature doesn’t get offended when humans kill animals or plants for consumption, just as nature doesn’t get offended when a bear kills a salmon for a meal.
You’re projecting feelings upon a world which doesn’t care for them.
Daniel says
Thank you for totally craping on mother nature. Cycle of life. Life eats life. Guess what that plant has a desire for life too. You tout your view point as morally superior? All you are is afraid of your own death. Its a cycle get over it. The lion eats the gazelle. If he didn’t the gazelle would eat all the grasses and all the gazelle’s would die. Your position in NO way is morally superior. It is inferior.
simplyhuman52 says
Is anyone under the impression that animals not slaughtered for meat somehow find death in a peaceful pasture surrounded by flowers and rainbows? When animals die in nature, it’s not pretty. Usually involves being eaten alive or something more horrible…just a thought. I am absolutely against CAFO’s and other ways of raising meats in which the animals are not allowed to be animals during their life. But they all have to die sometime, right? Or am I missing something?
Amber says
Humans all die too does that mean you want an execution date set up for you from the day you were born?
Jarred Tedino says
Your funny. Last time I checked all humans are destined to die; many in horrible ways especially outside the US and in many cases due to the US. Maybe I should start eating their babies because they are only going to starve, or get blown up by air strikes lol. Your too intelligent for your own good, really
sharon says
I started eating meat and fish again two years ago after being vegetarian for two decades. For a couple of years i’d had experienced cravings, for meat in particular, but i couldn’t get myself to eat it. Now though i can say that starting to eat meat and fish again was the single best decision i could have made. The way my health started improving after a couple of months, both physically as mentally, is ridiculous. I could never go back.
summer says
Thank you for this important article, Chris. It took a near hip break at 31 and the discovery that I had the bone density of a woman twice my age for me to finally give up veganism after 16 years. Once I put my biases aside and began researching the type of diet that would heal my body, I realized I needed more than the supplements I was taking as part of my therapy and transitioned from a two decades-long vegetarian diet to one that included fish, eggs, and eventually red meat. There was period of adjustment but I wish I had done it sooner. The vegan community, whatever its intentions, has done a great disservice to women (and especially those recovering from eating disorders, for which veganism is often a cover) by touting the diet’s (imagined) health benefits.
drew says
This myth has been so debunked over the years that it is almost alarming to hear it still be promulgated. Every study the world over proves that every culture with high dairy intact has the most issues with poor bone density. The intact of dairy actually forces the bones to leach calcium.
einstein says
so wrong, so wrong. especially the last sentence is complete nonsense. go tell the masai that they have weak bones. there is more to none density, much more. vit D, calcium and especially vit K2! ever heard about that one?
drew says
.. my point on calcium and dairy are proven in many many unbiased studies the world over, should you decide to look.
Shari Burckhardt says
Sunmer
Your post is just another inaccurate generalization. While vegetarian/veganism may not have been beneficial for you that does not mean you can assume it is not beneficial for some. Every human has different health issues to deal with and different genetic makeup. For me, going vegetarian is what saved my life. I have health conditions that put me in the E.R. up to 3 times a month and the week I went vegetarian that stopped. Even with my amazing results I do not think vegetarian/veganism is best for everyone. Each individual needs to find out what their body needs and adjust their diet accordingly. You have to know how to blend a proper menu to get all the nutrients you need as with any way of eating. If you do not pay close attention to what you are and are not getting from your food sources you can become deficient and do more harm than good. But this can be seen with all menu plans. My point is there is no one miracle way of eating that works for every person on this planet. Each individual needs to find what works best for them and strive to make sure their menu meets those needs.
Deanna says
I have met a few people lately that eat a low animal protein diet because of the research that animal protein increases the risk of cancers. Can you please show is some research that refutes that? Thank you!!
Michael Cohen says
One can endlessly cherry-pick different studies to support ones preconceived conclusions. This is why in order to obtain a realistic view point I keep coming back to the longest running and most extensive dietary study extant. It is called human history. If the Vegan Way of Eating was at all proper and natural for humans should’nt we see many examples of it in nature? In fact the OPPOSITE is true. There are NO reproducing vegan cultures, one has never been observed.Man living in his most natural state,that of the Hunter Gatherer, gets on the average 2/3 of his calories from animal foods. . Some like the Masai, Inuit, and Plains Indians get/got almost %100 of their calories from animal sources. These populations were observed to be virtually free of modern degenerative diseases until they start eating modern foods, namely white flour,sugar and vegetable seed oils. If we look at the foods in the modern diet that in the last century that have increased along with the increases in modern diseases,we see the same culprits, refined carbohydrates and vegetable seed oils.
tim says
I think you completely misunderstand why you see no vegetarian diets in hunter gatherer societies. It is not due to nutrient deficiency, but caloric intake compared to caloric output.
It is a lot more calorie efficient to hunt just may than to gather would gains, fruits and vegetables. This is why hunter gatherers eat a primarily meat based diet. However as far as I’m aware nowadays we can do all our “gathering” in one convenient place called a supermarket. This is much more calorie efficient system, hence why we use it.
Matthew says
Tim, since hunter gatherers found it more efficient to hunt instead of gather their calories can we not then deduce that those essential nutrients derived from animal sources that made humans thrive are what we evolved to require?
Sofie says
I’m afraid that theory doesn’t hold water. They went to great lengths to obtain animal foods, often specific ones that are high in nutrients. In the extreme:
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2011/05/12/weston-price-looked-for-vegans-but-found-only-cannibals/
Dee says
I come from a traditionally vegetarian (dairy) culture, and yes, much reproduction has happened!
Michael Cohen says
But you dont come from a VEGAN culture.(There are none) Traditional lacto-ovo vegetarian societies get many of their calories from the saturated fats in whole milk products. It is curious that vegetarian India has some of the highest diabetes and heart disease rates in the world. Why? Perhaps substituting cheaper vegetable fats (inflammatory,carcinogenic) for ghee. Refined grains and sugars.
einstein says
you nailed all three reasons in one sentence. congrats. not to mention most Indians look very very sickly. even the “healthy” ones. at least they did the last time I was there, which is less than a year ago.
Dillon says
“Einstein”.
You should post a picture of yourself so we can all get a good look at your appearance… then make a judgement on how it relates to your diet. Preferably next to one of those “sickly Indians” you encountered on your esteemed travels for comparison’s sake.
SteveL says
Hunter gatherers? You mean like the American male that hunts for bacon, roast beef and steak at the grocery store so he can sit on his fat ass on the couch and eat it while gathering his metabolic syndrome diseases?
The problem with Paleo (like Atkins) is that probably a very small proportion of people that claim to be on it are actually following it. I mean, who really is going to go out and buy extremely expensive grain fed meats or wild game? And, seriously, since people talk about what our ancestors did, who is actually going to take a spear and run around a forest for 3 days in order to kill a mesquite smoked honey glazed bacon beast and then drag it back 10 miles to the camp so that it can be shared by the tribe? All the while living on nothing but nuts and berries on the way.
I remember when Atkins came along and gave the green light to eat whatever high fat revolting piece of flesh you wanted to eat. Sure, he recommended leaner meats but nobody actually followed that recommendation. And he recommended vegetables but nobody followed that either.
Mike says
Hey Deanna, a quick pubmed central search of “CLA cancer” returns over 2600 articles… CLA, as found at high levels in the fat of grassfed ruminants has shown great efficacy in fighting cancer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=CLA%20cancer
einstein says
do your homework, don’t expect others to do it for you. you have google, right? those studies are crap, and there is a truckload of studies on the net that prove them wrong. just one question. ever since I got interested in nutrition and devote a lot of time studying it, I see a lot of vegans and vegetarians giving up this lifestyle once they get sick and turning to a paleoish diet (reintroducing some meats), after which they praise how good they feel again. but I have not seen any paleo acolate turned vegan. not one! doesn’t this reveal something?
Christopher says
I wholeheartedly that caution should be exercised with vegetarian/vegan diets. I was a vegetarian for twelve years with relative success but a two year switch to veganism seriously damaged my health: I was malnourished, eating mostly carbs and soy products. My blood pressure and blood sugar levels sky-rocketed and I was wracked with migraines and pelvic pain. Blood work also revealed I was deficient in several key vitamins and minerals. My doctor persuaded me to start eating fish and I slowly made the changeover to eating more traditionally/ancestrally. My health has improved tremendously.
Janelle says
A vegan or vegetarian diet consists of mostly veg and fruits. Soy and grains are not the predominent foods to either diet, and should be considered a side or treat.
I am a vegan and have successfully gotten all the necessary nutrients listed above through eating a variety of veg. I get my blood tested every year. And am in great health.
I have recently started taking B-12 because it is an easy way to ensure I get it, despite not needing it, via bacteria that produce the nutrient.
I just wanted to message that it is possible incase you wished to return to it. It does takes a passion for food and lots of fresh fruit, veg, nuts and seeds.
If your current diet suits you, all the best, and congratulations in finding what is right for your body.
Eugenia says
Unless you do raw vegan, grains and soy are THE predominant staples of a modern vegan. Maybe in some vegan utopia, people would consume primarily veggies and fruits, but that’s not the reality of things.
Isa says
I disagree. It’s like saying that McDonalds and Coca Cola are the staples of a normal western diet. For some – sure. But I still wouldn’t consider burger, fries and coke as staples.
I know plenty of vegans who omit soy completely and eat only gluten-free grains. Their staples are indeed vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts, seeds and gluten-free grains like quinoa, buckwheat and sometimes brown rice. They are in great health and shape.
Humans are very variable concerning their nutrition. Otherwise it would be impossible to exist on an Inuit diet vs. a tropical diet. There are plenty of options for a healthy and wholesome diet, including a vegan one. If you chose unwisely and unhealthily, don’t blame it on the vegan diet. The only thing that should be substituted in my eyes is really B12, everything else you can get from an intelligent vegan diet.
anna says
Good luck, Isa, good luck.
We’ve heard many things, including the promise of Communist paradise.
Rachael says
I was a vegetarian for over 30 years, and indeed, grains and soy were my staples. I was never vegan, but due to main-stream fat phobia I avoided most dairy and eggs. Sure, I ate ( and still eat) about twice as many fruit and vegetable servings as the average, but really, it was all brown rice and seitan for me. The up-shot was a variety of severe deficiencies, Celiac, and diabetes. My vitamin D level was 0! Saying that a vegetarian diet is mostly fruit and vegetables is silly, the vast majority of American vegetarians eat grains, beans, and as many vegetables as they can afford. Nuts are too expensive for most to eat a substantial amount.
Rachael says
Sorry Anna, I was actually intending to respond to Isa.
Annette says
Grains and soy were your staples? And seitan??? I wouldn’t touch that stuff with a ten foot pole- ever. It’s no wonder you didn’t succeed. Saying a vegetarian diet is mostly fruits and vegies is NOT silly at all. What’s silly is when people decide to ‘go vego’ and do it all so terribly wrong.
Christopher says
Most vegans I knew during my period of veganism whole-heartedly espoused tofu and seitan as a primary source of protein. I ate those things frequently. And since I couldn’t get satiated on fruits and veggies alone, I ate a lot of carbs: bread, rice, potatoes, etc. These are vegan staples and a fast track to bad health. Those of you who have been successful as vegans, I feel are in the minority. Of the 25 committed vegans I knew ten years ago, only one remains a vegan. The others are all eating meat and fish now due to nutritional imbalances. Ancedotal, yes but between their stories and mine, convincing enough.
Dirk says
As you can see from these comments regarding soy and grains, most people today don’t have a clue as to where our ideas around veganism and vegetarianism originate. Macrobiotics has influenced greatly the post-WW2 natural foods industry in America to the point we don’t even realize that before that food movement reached the USA foods like organic brown rice, tofu and seitan were unavailable. The pre-WW2 *health food* landscape was influenced by the Kellogg Brothers, not only the one who made cereal but his even more influential brother who operated the Battle Creek Sanitarium. Does anyone today still think corn flakes are healthy?
John says
Anna, can we please keep this about trying to improve out health and not about your politics?
Annie says
Oh, but food and health has everything to do with politics. And that this article is right has been recently confirmed by a study of the association between eating behavior and various health parameters at the Medical University Graz, Austria which found that vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life.
StevePatrick says
This study is a joke. Oh, and btw, from the researchers behind the study: “We analyzed the data of 330 vegetarians. In detail, our vegetarian group comprised 25 pure vegetarians (vegan persons), 126 vegetarians consuming milk and eggs, and 179 vegetarians consuming fish and/or eggs and milk.”
So, basically, over half of what they termed as “vegetarian” are people that eat fish, eggs and dairy. So flawed….
StevePatrick says
I love it. The same source material, the same group of researchers and a completely different conclusion.
The study you site:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0088278
The antithesis of this conclusion:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00508-013-0483-3
sarah says
What an obnoxious reply. Are we to assume there’s no communist meat eaters? Guess you’ve never been to China.
Mong says
How very unpleasant of you to attempt to keep this discussion on topic! FOR SHAME!
Jesse G says
sarah, judging by your comment, it seems like your implying that the people a long time ago throughout the world were crypto-communists, like the Greeks, Romans and Joos just to name a few? what’s so “anti-western” about vegetarianism when people a long time ago, since the ancient past like in the Bible (for western audiences) people had conflicting opinions about what foods should be ideal to eat for humans?
Ellen Berdan says
I haven’t started a vegan diet but I try to follow a vegetarian diet as close as possible. Rarely do I eat meat. Only small portions or when mixed in with something when we are eating with others. I don’t think I eat 5 pounds of red meat a year unless it is fish. I do feel better and have been able to focus on eating more greens, veggies and healthy organic grains, nuts and legumes.
This was prompted by my doctor who informed me that it would make my weight loss efforts more successful. He was right. I’ve lost 32 pounds in the last two years. I do take the best vitamins I can find as well. I can’t help but think eating healthy is far superior to being over weight and taking cholesterol and blood pressure meds. Have you watched the movie (Forks Over Knives)? It is a straight forward scientific study that supports a vegetarian diet and the facts aren’t opinions. It’s probably the most life changing movie a person can watch!
Debra says
Regarding the “Forks Over Knives” movie, please don’t believe everything you see or read as being the “one and only way”. That movie is riddled with misinformation.
Richard says
Debra, your comment did not include one thing that you think is misinformation in “Forks over Knives”.
Charles Morton says
Debra, what kind of “misinformation” did you find in “Forks over Knives”.
This movie is completely science and researched based and based on the careers of two passionate men from medicine and science
Alessandro Stamatto says
Criticisms against the “science” in this movie is widely available.
Summarizing: The science methods are very biased, and ends up being pseudo-science. Several nutritionists debunked the myths spread by that movie.
Here’s some:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/13/vegetarian-movie-forks-over-knives–critically-reviewed.aspx
Steven Little says
Dude, you can’t defend an argument by supplying a link to that same person’s argument in a different location. And then a link to a “Doctor” that is again using the same English Major’s blog as some kind of proof. Seriously!
Richard says
I am a vegan and do not eat soy so I am not sure where you get your information that a vegan must consume soy…
If you are talking about protein, grains, beans and lintels have ample protein not to mention the protein in vegetables. There are grains that are gluten free if that is what bothers you.
FrankG says
Where do you see anyone stating “that a vegan must consume soy” ..?
Sam says
Is not meat eaters or former vegetarians or former vegans that make the claims of problems with the diet. Even the very own vegetarians report that they are unhealthy and feeling worst that people on other diets.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24516625
Moreover, our results showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with poorer health (higher incidences of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), a higher need for health care, and poorer quality of life. Therefore, public health programs are needed in order to reduce the health risk due to nutritional factors.
Richard says
The last place I look for information is on a government site. Are you aware of how many decades the USDA gave food recommendations to the public only to support agricultural industries?
Studies I have seen say that vegetarians are healthy but after all the blah blah on this subject do you have evidence of any diet that reversed heart disease other that those famous for it like Ornish, Esselstyn or Fuhrman? If everyone else is so healthy why do the studies of dead soldiers during the Korean and Vietnam conflicts show so many clogged arteries of people around 20 years old?
drv says
I also disagree. In the bahamas where I live and practice, Most of my vegan patients are well educated and completely avoid all processed soy ( mostly due to price). They eat a variety of whole, nutrient dense food primarily, with the bulk of calories coming from nuts/seeds and root vegetables. We have a large Rastafarian population ( religious mostly vegan), and they are some of the healthiest patients I have. I’m always much More concerned if someone claims they eat “Normal Bahamian food” vs if hey claim they are they are vegan.
Marie says
I think the GMO soy and corn really is what causes the problems for vegans…It is in everything and cannot be avoided 100% of the time(maybe in Cali)
Melissa says
My daughter is vegan. She eats a wide variety of vegetables, beans, grains, fruits and nuts. She hardly ever eats soy. If you do your research you can get everything you need in a vegetarian or vegan diet. Yes, there are unhealthy vegetarians/vegans but there a lot more unhealthy people who eat animal products.
Richard says
You do not control what goes into your mouth? Seems to me if grains are so bad then not only vegans should be avoiding them but how do you explain the cultures that have done far better than average on grains?
Richard says
Really? How did you decide that soy and grains must be part of a vegan diet? Anyway I do eat grains but I soak them for 24 hours along with nuts and seeds before cooking.
I would consume some soy if I could get natto or other fermented soy but I am not drinking soy milk.
Marie says
Coconut milk is the next thing besides almond milk.
SteveL says
We have gone Vegan for health. We do eat fruits and vegetables as our main staples. Some whole grains/rice/rye as well [gluten free is not an issue for us]. We never eat Tofu (I hate the stuff as most people serve it) but will make fermented cheese and cream out of cashews. That’s an occasional thing.
As I said, we did it for health after a Type II Diabetes diagnoses along with high blood pressure, high cholesterol, high everything. 1 year and 60 pounds lighter, all blood work has normalized.
Prior to this, we were mostly eating meat and some veggies, and a lot of potatoes. And a huge amount of dairy (cheese mostly). We have never been much into sweets but did used to have a lot of ice cream binges. That dairy really is like crack. Our weight went up so high so fast because of our eating habits.
I think new vegans these days are doing it right. Focusing on the whole foods and veggies. If your focus is on health as opposed to animals, then you are likely going to make right choices.
I am still a bit surprised at how aggressive and hateful people who eat meat get whenever commenting on vegans. Even in my own family and with friends and work, people really get their hackles up. I don’t even have to say a word. There must be some psychological reason for this.
VictorianPuffball says
I think the reason they do that is because many vegans they find on the internet are crazy lunatics with an agenda who want to make it against the law to eat any animal products, so they generalize all vegans like that.
Laurie Conrad says
I am a vegan and personally know many others including my husband, mother, son and close friend, many other acquaintances and associates. All of us are in good health. We all eat different things. Yes I’ve had my blood tested – twice a year. I know not one person who ever turned away from veganism. If you do then you were on a plant based diet – this is different to veganism. A vegan does not eat for health, although everyone vegan know is healthy. A vegan chooses not to eat animals and their products for the same reason you choose not to eat your dog or cat or drink your dog or cat’s milk or make cheese out of it. We really are all the same. It’s just that once you are vegan you no longer discriminate. Therefore you no longer eat animals or their products. You learn the truth about health and you learn the sad truth about our culture of discrimination. Once vegan it is like a butterfly – the butterfly will never be a caterpillar again nor would it ever want to. But all of us are butterflies – kind and wonderful people. It’s just a matter of channeling that into everything, including the food we eat. Peace.
Brian says
Thank you Janelle & others for chiming in. I’m not a vegan, however, I have many vegan friends who are thriving. I’ve run vegan experiments for 6 months eating fresh berries, ripe fruit, salads, steamed veggies, & some mineral/vitamin supplements & did quite well. It’s not my path, however, I cannot deny that people that really dig into the plant food path can flourish, like anything in life the total alchemy of the path needs to be considered. The vegans I have met that seem to be flourishing are usually fairly physically active, get sunshine, watch less t.v. & movies, take getting quality sleep seriously, take hydration seriously, don’t drink stimulants like coffee regularly or at all, & similar types of healthy habits. I’ve also encountered people on vegan/vegetarian paths who are not doing well & they usually eat lots of processed junk ‘health’ foods. My personal theory is that plant foods are lighter in energy, so a person’s body built from only plant foods will become lighter & more sensitive in form & receptivity. If such a person also adapts their total lifestyle & habits to be in harmony with this lighter body, then perhaps there are greater conditions present to flourish with radiant health. If a person lives like most people in the modern age racing around & stuffing their body & mind with processed food & garbage stimulants & overly stimulating media, perhaps this will be taxing & exhausting to the lighter body. It’s not my path, as I eat some animal foods, however, as a person deeply involved in natural healing & learning about the radiant possibilities of the plant world, I feel that I’ve seen plenty of evidence that the vegan path can work if people fully respect & harmonize their lifestyles & habits with the body they are building. For many people, the more hunter/gatherer wider diet including animal foods may be better suited for them & their lifestyle. I respect everyone’s paths & critiques on this aspect of human life. <3 & best healing wishes always
Royce says
“My personal theory is that plant foods are lighter in energy, so a person’s body built from only plant foods will become lighter & more sensitive in form & receptivity.”
Thank you for sharing your theory. Unfortunately, it there is no empirical evidence that it has any validity, and plenty of empirical evidence that many of those who follow such wishful thinking suffer damage to their health.
pam says
“plant foods are lighter in energy, so a person’s body built from only plant foods will become lighter & more sensitive in form & receptivity.”
indeed, too light in energy, i got hungry + cold in 2 hours after a vegan meal. & i become very sensitive & receptive to cold temperature.
regards,
Marjalyn Henson says
What a good balanced approach. I am 78 and very healthy and well (? good ancestral genes, see my soon to be 100 Aunt.). I have been very interested in healthy living since my teens. No health food shops then. I think that unless a vegetarian is VERY well educated about nutrition or living in some place where everyone has available good quality, well grown food it is very difficult to be healthy. It is also easy to be unhealthy on a modern processed refined carb rich diet. We have massive advertising campaigns giving dis information so need to be personally aware.
David says
Janelle,
Do your blood tests include B12, calcium, iron, zinc, EPA & DHA, vitamin A & D?
Is your B12 test a test for holotranscobalamin?
http://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency
Maranda says
Even if you eat a whole foods, plant based diet (and not tons of soy, grains, meat analogues, etc.) heavy supplementation is still required, as mentioned in the article. DHA, retinol and B12 only come from animal products, and other nutrients like iron are difficult to obtain from plants. I think eating lots of plants should be the basis of any diet, but certain micronutrients are only available from animal products or supplements. You can “think” you can get all nutrients from plants, but the science doesn’t support that unfortunately.
Barbara says
This is a load of crap. Most people with vitamine B12 deficiency are animal eaters.
My personal experience is that on a vegetarian diet I was B12 deficient. However, after changing to a vegan diet the deficiency went away. Without supplements.
Tallulah says
I have to agree. I’d been a vegetarian for 18 years and vegan for about a year now. When I started the vegan diet I also started taking vitamin supplements. My doctor told to me to save my money on the B12, that I didn’t need it.
Carrina says
Algae has DHA and some eggs do also (From chickens fed DHA foods), most nut milks are fortified with B-12 as is nutritional yeast and probiotics, retinol from what I understand is created naturally when you eat foods rich in vitamin A, and consuming too much retinol in it’s active form (from meat.) is believed to increase the chances of getting osteoporosis. The important thing is to really learn how to be healthy if you become vegetarian or vegan. Some people do fall into the “junk food vegetarian”. This is because of lack of knowledge. If you want to continue to eat meat and get healthier, simply reduce your meat intake to several times a week, or have smaller portions. Fill up on the plant based foods. So what I do is I eat more then half of my calorie intake in non-starchy veggies (at least 8 servings a day), fruit is about 3 or 4 servings, same beans and legumes I do 2 or 3, same with nuts or seeds or avocado, grains, and starchy veggies I eat less then 2 times a day, I eat a egg or dairy product once or twice a day, then have a clean and lean meat option twice a week or less. No processed meats or grains. (These are the things that really get you, especially all that corn. Almost all processed foods have a whole lot of corn!) I was very sick before I started eating this way. I was borderline diabetic, was lethargic most of the time, and had high blood pressure. Now I do not, and I have slimmed down which is the super awesome bonus!
Carrina says
Sorry, for the typos, my keyboard likes to hiccup. Wonk Wonk.
FrankG says
Seems like a sensible approach to taking good care of yourself 🙂
Carrina says
Thank you Frank. I learned a lot of this from different places. I think it is also important to remember that everyone’s body is going to react differently to different diets. So what might work for me may not work for another person. Genetics play a part in this, too.
Nkosinathi says
It is not true that DHA and B12 come only from animals; we produce B12 mainly in our intestine and in the mouth. Cows being some of the best producers of B12 actually eat grass as we know; with a proper balanced diet (eating fruits and veg, grains, legumes, seeds and avoiding refined or processed foods while focusing on whole foods) you can only produce B12 and DHA by yourself. DHA just needs a good nutritious diet for your body to produce it. Many when they change their diet focus more on removing certain foods more than on adding, this will lead to lack and a plant base diet will be blamed, but the problem is with the person. Also one must learn to cook vegetables in a proper way that will avoid the losing of nutrients to too much heat (over cooking) or water (e.g. in the case of boiling). Going raw only will lead to problems as some veg need heat to release all their benefits. There is more that can be mentioned that one must take into account. Oh and as an example, veggies rich in iron will give you more iron than meat, as your body will absorb the iron far much better with the help of vitamin C food. meat may seem to have more, but our bodies cannot breakdown the meet properly. God created us as plant eaters (Genesis 1:29), but after the flood in Noah’s day the vegetation was flooded, hence He allowed the eating of flesh (Genesis 9:2-3). When God called the children of Israel, He sort to restore to them a proper diet by removing flesh from their food (Deuteronomy 8 and Exodus 16), but since they lusted after flesh, He gave them flesh and He gave guide as to what may be safe to eat (Leviticus 11), but He also mentioned that in the future He wound allow sickness even in the animal kingdom due to the increase of sin (Hosea 4:1-3). The plant base diet was the perfect diet that was not merely limited to longevity, but had to do with a health mind that we would be able to understand God (Deuteronomy 8). Flesh eating continued but from the late 1800s things changed and diseases increased in proportion to the increase of sin, and are worse today. Do you know they never found the cure for mad cow disease? It is like a time bomb waiting to happen, but like I said longevity is just a fringe benefit, you could die any time, but have you examined your ways?
Soy products and veg patties should not be a permanent feature in your diet, but if you take them, take care that they do not dominate your meals. For the poor, lets advice good choices within reach, we cannot prescribe an exact diet for everyone… you might kill the poor person.
Let us all learn more, and eat well
drew says
B12 comes from the biological activity of microbes in the soil. Virtually all other areas that produce a variant are NOT enough for our sustenance.
Fred says
Actually, Vitamin A has a Vitamin K2-sparing action. It limits the production of MGP (its role is to sweep calcium out of soft tisues like arteries). MGP, like osteocalcin, requires Vitamin K2 to bind to calcium, so by reducing the production of MGP, Vitamin A does damage control reduces the need for Vitamin K2. The problem is that when you eat too much Vitamin A without Vitamin D, you have spared K2 too much so it causes problems because you need K2. Vitamin D obviously increases production of MGP (the exact opposite effect) so a minimum amount prevents Vitamin A toxicity.
Osteoporosis is caused by Vitamin K2 deficiency because the proteins like osteocalcin and MGP can’t bind to calcium and do their job.
katie says
I whole heartedly stand up for a plant based diet. I have been a vegan for over 3 years. Everytime I get my labs done they are great. My cholesterol levels are supremely including my hdl levels that some people may say I can’t get without animal products. My b12 levels have been incredible. Same with iron, calcium, and protein.
I have sat down with registered dietitians and they have said I am an A+ model for supreme health. I am extremely active and have never had any issues.
yes, it is difficult. I have to be diligent about my diet. I don’t love off of salads and fake soy products. I almost never consume soy. But I truly believe plant based diets are perfectly safe as long as you eat the way you should.
Daniel says
Again did you read the article? So funny you think you can intellectualize yourself into overcoming your genes. Your just more efficient at making up for a deficient diet. The birds will come home to roost.
Jonny O. says
It’s a little funny, as well as pathetic that you have such a bone to pick (no pun intended) with the fact that someone is doing well on a plant-based diet. That really gets under your skin huh? Here’s what you sound like ~ “There’s no way she could be correct, because I said so. My ego is so attached to my own diet that differs from hers that to hear that she’s doing well on it, is a personal attack that cannot be tolerated!” Here’s a crazy idea, get your nose out of other peoples’ diets, and perhaps learn not to root for someone else’s failure. But of course, you gotta have a little empathy, and you test results just came back, turns out you’re very deficient.
ohsan says
The comment was not at all derogatory or against the author or her diet in ANY way. The person is just trying to say that the vegan diet that she has been following, has been working marvelously well for her which is in contradiction to this article. I get it that your not smart enough to understand other people and their choices but just Do us all a favor, stick this ‘vegan being a deficient diet’ up your ass and stop being a bitch about any other person trying to voice their opinions.
kaytee says
All the folk bashing of the plant based diet should review the years long studies of 7th day Adventists who for more than 100 yrs have encouraged their members to live a vegan, hydrated sleep filled, faith based lifestyle. Plant based foods is the original diet from Eden. Since man decided to mess with the genes of plants our food sources have been compromised. We may do well to made more noise about that than count on science study which is often sponsored by some special interest group to support positions.
Visit wesites such as Weimar Institute, Wildwood Lifestyle in GA, Eden Valley Lifestyle in CO for more info that is based on real results from real people whose lives have been recreated from plant based lifestyle that is more than just plants.
Janet says
The Adventist also abstain from smoking and other unhealthy habits so this falls under the “healthy user bias” mentioned. You can google articles about meat eating Mormons who follow similar lifestyle practices and actually have been shown to live 4-7 years longer than the Adventist. Plus as a population Adventist have higher incidents of certain types of cancer then the rest of the population and lower incidences in others possibly related to the vegetarian diet and higher incidents of thyroid issues probably from high soy consumption. It is never as black and white as we would like it to be. I think stress more than diet affects our health more than anything else. Plus the Adventist I know are not Vegan but vegetarian they eat a lot of dairy and eggs and soy products.
Anne says
Just a correction, Seventh Day Adventists generally are vegetarians, not vegans.
Michelle says
As a member of the Adventist church, I can attest to the fact that many aren’t vegetarian either. I am not. The reason for vegetarianism is that in the late 1800’s it was the cutting edge diet in “sanitariums” that promoted health. You will see that the Mormons have a similar health message in regards to alcohol/tobacco/caffeine and limited meat, as that church formed in the same time period. The principle of the time (and today) by both churches was to live as healthy as possible so that you could do God’s work and live a healthy life. The problem with it today is folks aren’t sticking with the principle and adjusting their knowledge of nutrition but just sticking with the same ol same ol. I won’t touch the fake meats, or do I frequent potlucks which is often flour, cheese, and dessert.
Janet is spot on about the study, and the article talks about it also, that there are just to many variables to a healthy lifestyle to pin it on diet. I liked how the article discusses the genetic aspect as well…many can go years feeling incredibly healthy as a vegan or vegetarian before noticing issues, and some notice it right away. There are really so many variables.
Stuart says
Unfortunately, both usual die early. From boredem.
JLA says
kaytee, the author of this article is probably an atheist, and certainly subscribes to an evolutionary world view, so it is useless to point out that “plant based foods is the original diet from Eden”. However, for those who claim to subscribe to a Biblical world view, a vegan diet is not only the diet given to us directly by our Creator, but it will be the diet of the coming kingdom for eternity.
Loma Linda, CA (with it’s high percentage of Seventh-day Adventist population) is one of only 5 or so “blue zones” in the world, where there is a high number of centenarians. Apostate Adventists who eat meat can naysay all they want, and vegetarian Adventists who consume high amounts of dairy and eggs would do themselves a favor and read the writings of Ellen White, or at least read The China Study or watch Forks Over Knives.
FrankG says
Oh Noes!!!
You mean to say that the author of this article Chris Kesser, might actually be rational human who does not blindly believe in supernatural magic-stuff?!? 😛
Personally I would take such an “accusation” as a compliment… I just wish the rest of the world were like that, then maybe we could start to mature as a species, instead of so many basing their beliefs on bronze-age books 🙂
FrankG says
Sorry Chris KRESSER … damn these stubby, primate digits 🙂
John Richards says
JLA, regarding your claim that a vegan diet is the diet given to us directly by our Creator, I urge you to read Acts 11:1-9. In that passage God authorizes the eating of all sorts of animals.
Prezz says
That was after the flood 🙂
Rich says
The term “plant-based diet” is very disingenuous. Call it what it is – vegetarian or vegan.
I actually eat what could be called a plant-based diet. The majority of my intake is plants of some sort, with moderate amounts of meats, eggs, and fats. That is a more genuine use of the term.
bcflyfisher says
Good call Rich. I think most people eating a paleo diet are indeed eating a plant-based diet. I just happen to include lots of animal products in my plant-based diet.
I would also add that anyone switching from a SAD to a veg*an diet will probably feel like they’ve made the greatest change in the world. That doesn’t mean it’s optimal, just better. Kind of like switching from white bread to whole wheat…better, but still not optimal.
Alx says
I say the same thing about going from SAD to Paleo.
I went from SAD to Atkins (this was before paleo became a buzz word), lost some weight but felt dizzy during my work outs. My blood levels were all over the place, especially my cholesterol levels, which went through the roof. On the advice of my doctor, I then tried a vegan diet. All my blood levels returned to normal I lost a lot of fat and gained lots of muscle. I’ve been on that diet for over 15 years and feel like I’m doing pretty well for someone in their mid fifties. I only supplement B12 and D2 in the winter months. My B12 levels have always been good. My insurance doesn’t cover the test for D, but my wife’s levels are good. (apparently post menopausal women are covered under insurance).
Rich says
Atkins and Paleo are not even remotely the same thing.
Rhonda says
It’s not disingenuous; it’s a way to distinguished between people who avoid animal products for ethical reasons (vegans) versus people who do not eat animal products (plant-based diet).
Rich says
Quite to the contrary, actually.
No one was confused about the terms vegan and vegetarian. Plant-based started gaining traction due to the negative connotations of being ‘vegan’.
Plant-based and plant-exclusive are different things. I will say again that my diet is plant-based and includes animal products. I use the term properly. Someone who excludes all animal products is not plant-based. They have a diet of plants. Period.
Jared says
The average time for B12 that is stored in the liver to be depleted is five years. It’s just a matter of time.
OnTheFence says
I don’t see why Paleo/meat eaters hold on to one nutrient as a reason to eat animals in today’s modern society (reductionist theory/research). Today, taking a B12 supplement is easy and extremely cheap – we don’t need much. Meat is expensive and vast majority in our culture – factory farmed. Meat eaters also are encouraged to take other types of supplements by Chris himself. So while I am on the fence – this doesn’t move me.
einstein says
If you dont see, then you know very little yet and have a long way to go before you do. Dont stop learning. I keep my fingers crossed for you, and for all the vegans and vegeterians out there.
Dee says
^^^ And Einstein was vegetarian! Just sayin…!
FrankG says
…for the last year of his life… just sayin’! 😛
Jonny O says
Einstein, I’ll bet it really gets under your skin to hear that a Vegan/Vegetarian is doing alright on their diet huh? Really burns you up? Try disassociating your ego from your diet and you might not be so angry about what other people choose to do with their own lives? Being an intolerant egomaniac doesn’t have a great track-record in history, you might do some light reading some day on totalitarianism. Anyway, I think it might possibly be YOU that has a little ways to go and sadly in much more than intellect.
Ashley says
Since bacteria are living creatures just like animals and they are the source of b12 supplements (because ultimately, we have to have animals or animal-like creatures make b12 for us), it seems more sensible to go the route of doing the least harm and get b12 from the most efficient source possible. While researching various b12 sources, I discovered that eating 2 servings of clams per month is enough to completely satisfy this requirement. Since many vegans are vegan based on their desire to do no harm and inflict no pain or suffering, clams would be the way to go. They are about as intelligent and social as bacteria. For those who assert that intelligence/pain don’t matter and it is the sanctity of life that must be respected, it should be remembered that bacteria and plants are alive as well. Therefore, optimizing the intake of b12 can be achieved by consuming the most b12-dense “animal” (bivalve) in the world: clams. They filter our water and act symbiotically in aquatic ecosystems, so even farming them is beneficial to every organism involved.
LCC says
If you have to supplement your diet with vitamins/minerals/extras, you’re likely eating the wrong foods.
How many animals have you seen in the wild taking supplements?
Sandi says
All savvy vegetarians/vegans use Nutritional Yeast and other nonmeat sources of Vit Bs. Deju has a vegan B12 that is great.
Witho says
I’ve been a vegan for over 20 years, have had regular bloodwork done. Have never been deficient in anything, apart from iron levels have been a little low directly after childbirth. B12 has always been high normal. I have had occasionally low vit d, but that’s normal for someone who spends a lot of time indoors in the winter in this part of the world. I’m raising two vegan children who are both flourishing. My eldest is the top of her class and very able. Neither is frequently ill. It works if you eat well. Most people don’t eat well.
FrankG says
Well great for you and your kids.. seems that your gamble with their development and long-term health is working out so far.
I don’t think there is disagreement that it is possible to source everything you need from just plants — after all we are opportunistic omnivores — but as you say yourself “Most people don’t eat well” and I keep seeing this same idea repeated here.. anyone who “fails” as a veg*an didn’t do it right!
Why is it so darn difficult?!?
When did it get so complicated to eat that we need a degree in nutritional science in order to nourish our bodies?
AK says
Same goes for the people promoting any diet, including the Paleo diet. Why is it so hard to work out what to eat and then do it?
It’s hard because “we” (people here) have a scientific mind and we’re attempting to optimise our diets. For people who really don’t feel they need to optimise everything down to the last molecule, they chose a lifestyle and then live that way. Some do it with junk food and die early, some eat and live well and live long. Some from either camp have genes that will get them through or hurt them early.
It’s not hard raising children vegan (My wife and I do it) if you do the basics, just like most meat eaters do. If you want to go that step further then no matter what diet you follow, it’s going to take more effort.
FrankG says
Or put it another way… all these “most” people (including veg*ans?) who you say “don’t eat well”… do you think this they should be raising their children as veg*ans?
Kim says
I’m guessing you’re fairly young. Many of these deficiencies will show up later as you become less efficient at overcoming them. BTW, lower cholesterol numbers are not necessarily better.
danae says
Hi Katie,
thank you for your contribution.
I am considering to switch from vegetarian to vegan. would it be possible to give me an example of your diet?
I have added linseed, almonds, sunflower seeds, sesame seeds in my daily diet in a good amount, in addition to vegetables, fruits, legumes and brown rice.
did you supplement with b12, vitamin d, or zinc your diet.
thank you in advance!!!
Michael says
I am curious why someone would even become vegetarian or vegan?
I normally hear two reasons; a) to be healthier b) they are an animal lover/ killing animals is wrong etc
In the case of ‘A’, just do your research. A Diet filled with quality meat (not processed crap), fruits & veggies, some dairy products, nuts & seeds, and gluten-free grains like rice is going to suit humans in general best. Play around with the ratios of everything and find what works for you.
In the case of ‘B’, yes modern day farming can be pretty disgusting, but if it really bothers you then get your meat from a farm that treats the animals the way you want, or care for the animals yourself. To say that humans shouldn’t kill animals for food/materials goes against history and nature. The way we treat animals (livestock) in modern society is really bad, but my diet still contain meat for the health benefits.
Thoughts?
JacquieRN says
Clinical care: not just preventing, not just slowing, but truly reversing the number #1 killer of men and women – coronary artery disease = heart attack – remarkable, unheard of and clearly documented via imaging.
I have talked with patients whose lives have been changed dramatically. I am not talking a micronutrient here or there – but pain to no pain (angina), stents placed to live every month/CPR to revive to no stents and no CPR, out of wheelchairs to quality of life, etc.
One place to see the images is here, only if you are interested: http://www.heartattackproof.com/resolving_cade.htm
charles grashow says
http://www.heartattackproof.com/study02_methods.htm
“Participants were asked to adhere to a diet that derived less than 10% of its calories from fat. They were to avoid oils, meat, fish, fowl, and dairy products, except for skim milk and nonfat yogurt. ”
“Each participant also received an individualized prescription for a cholesterol-lowering drug. The most frequent regimen included cholestyramine, 4 g twice daily, and lovastarin, 40 mg to 60 mg daily. Time-release niacin was prescribed for a short while but was discontinued when many patients reported nausea, vomiting, and swollen ankles.”
Were the patients ever taken off statins?
How much of the reduction in TC was due to diet or due to the drugs?
http://www.heartattackproof.com/reversal01.htm
Look at Table 3
High Trigs usually indicate small LDL-P which are very bad.
einstein says
yeah, that sounds like the experiment where the evil professor wanted to finish off all the participants. killer approach, really…
charles grashow says
Ignore the questions – the fact is ALL of the patients were given drugs and the good doctor never states if the patients were ever taken off the meds!
Were the patients ever taken off statins?
How much of the reduction in TC was due to diet or due to the drugs?
Foodie says
My understanding – these patients were very sick heart patients and often in pain so i bet they were already on a cholesterol lowering pills. From the little i know, this would be very common. So I don’t think the pills they were still on or not are a concern – that fact that the arteries opened was/is remarkable – i don’t think I can find fault with the results and health these people gained.
jennym says
I changed to a vegan lifestyle when I was constantly sick.
Every time after eating a meat product (even eggs or cheese) I would have severe stomach upset and headaches…not to mention the lack of energy b/c my body was busy trying to break down the animal product I just consumed.
Every month I was sick…I could set a calendar to it…cold sores would cover the inside of my mouth, my temp was up to 103 and I couldn’t eat for days…and this lasted for 3 days each month…doctors couldn’t figure it out, just wanted to medicate me…I said no and went on my own journey to use food as my medication.
I use a lot of soaked nuts (almonds, cashews, macadamia) for meals and chickpeas/sweet potatoes as my base for my “faux burgers”….love hemp seed and add it anywhere I can (btw…it’s a perfect protein…has EVERYTHING the body requires and is even the closest resemblance to human DNA…)
Highly suggest Brendan Brazier’s books…Thrive Diet, Foods to Thrive and his new book Thrive Cookbook…..reading this changed my outlook on how the body really uses food as fuel, and how it’s WE that use food as emotion, comfort etc…
Since changing to vegan I’ve had more energy, more mental clarity then I’ve EVER had with a meat based diet.
I’ve never touched (and never will) soy, and I’m not a big fan of legumes…
charles grashow says
If you’re a true vegan why do you feel a need to eat “faux” burgers??
jennym says
Dumb answer Charles….I call them “faux burgers”…I don’t buy the prepackaged soy based ones in the freezer…I MAKE them. You ass
FrankG says
Why? If teh ode aof eating meat is so abhorrent then why on earth make a burger substitute? Is your imagination, or your knowledge of the incredibly vast range of edible foods (and the ways they can be prepared) on this planet really so limited?
AK says
As someone who keeps trying to use science to promote your diet, relying on strawman arguments makes you look desperate.
FrankG says
Why? If the idea of eating meat is so abhorrent to you, then why on earth make a burger substitute? Is your imagination, or your knowledge of the incredibly vast range of edible foods (and the ways they can be prepared) on this planet really so limited?
jennym says
No…it’s just an easier way when out camping with my family to make, store and prepare my food…is that ok with you?
FrankG says
By all means .. 🙂 Feel free to rationalise your own decisions as suits you.
jennym says
You are nothing but a troll on here….trying to piss people off….
I’m happy, healthy and vegan…so suck it.
Carrina says
I think the idea that a burger has to be made from one thing. I always thought of it as a generalized thing. There are meat burgers, nut burgers, mushroom burgers, bean burgers. It’s just something to describe a formed substance to put in a sandwich.
FrankG says
You mean like how “bacon” doesn’t need to be made out of pig?
Dillon says
FrankG you have too much time on your hands, buddy. Go out and preach to the world about the bad Vegans and non-meaters. Looks like you don’t have a job, otherwise.
Mia says
Also, a black bean “burger” is just a sandwich. It’s not trying to be a hamburger. I don’t know why they are called burgers. Do you think a cheese sandwich is a meat substitute? A sandwich is a sandwich.
einstein says
your body was trying to break down meat? meat is one of the few things we have enzymes to digest. it is vegetables and fruits we need bacteria to help us digest them in the bowel. who knows what kind of junk meat you were eating to evoke your stomach problems. red slime burgers perhaps. nobody ever got stomach trouble fm grass fed beef. EVER!
jennym says
I agree…I grew up on a dairy farm and our freezer was stocked full of beef…..but the beef I had growing up is not the beef you can purchase now at the grocery store (which is where I was buying it)
Unfortunately, farming has become more about how much to get out at a little cost to the producer…..since I’ve switched to vegan, my husband and children still consume meat, but now we go to a beef farmer and purchase half a cow, so we know what kind of meat is in the freezer.
…and yes, the body does have to break down meat in order to digest it…no different than anything else….use your head, or change your name.
einstein says
of course the body needs energy for digestion. but its amount is hugely overrated. it provides much more energy than is needed for its digestion. which is not true for vegetables. their digestion costs more energy than they provide. and energy expenditure for digestion has nothing to do with stomach upset, whatsoever. you need to read better before rushing to answer.
jennym says
There’s no rush to answer…I think you may be miselad…leafy greens and colourful veggies deliver energy by way of conservation instead of consumption….meaning….as soon as we eat something (anything) the body starts spending digestive energy to convert the energy stored within food (aka calories) into useable sustenance to meet the body’s biological requirements……whenever energy is transferred from one form or another, there is some loss of energy….however, it depends on what you eat as the process varies greatly based on what is eaten.
Digestion is the body using energy….it’s no coincidence that the cultures that have the largest meals at lunch also enjoy and participate in afternoon siestas…
Natual, unrefined whole foods require less energy to digest….therefore GAINING more usable energy when eating foods in a natural whole state (even if they have fewer calories as veggies, seeds, nuts, and fruit do compared to meat)
Plant based is also better internally for your body as it produces an alkaline environment within the body…if the body is too acidic (which comes from meat sourced meals) it affects our health at the cellular level immediately with inflammation and cellular death….as well, people with a low body pH are prone to illness and fatigue (that was something that I was experiencing with a meat based diet)….acidic enviornment in the body over time causes the immune system to fail and falter, opening the door to more extreme illnesses.
For me, switching to a plant based diet helped eliminate the issues that I was dealing with health wise (and I wasn’t eating poorly to begin with…just meat at almost every meal)….I’m not saying vegan is the ONLY way to go…it’s just the way to go for me….it’s you that is shaming those for choosing it.
FrankG says
Are you saying that only energy counts? That somehow we nourish our bodies with calories?
FrankG says
“[Natural], unrefined whole foods require less energy to digest”
Are you saying that chewing raw sugar-cane is a more efficient way to raise my blood glucose than by drinking a can of soda?
FrankG says
“…if the body is too acidic (which comes from meat sourced meals) it affects our health at the cellular level immediately with inflammation and cellular death….”
Are you saying that my meat-based diet is somehow actually killing me… despite the fact that every one of my health markers as measured in a lab, has improved (including my teeth, gums and hair) and I rarely even get a cold these days?
Yes I realise that you ended your speech with the caveat “….I’m not saying vegan is the ONLY way to go…it’s just the way to go for me….”
but you made no such distinction in your generalised earlier points.
jennym says
Frank..you honestly need to use your head….maybe you need more veggies in your diet to clear help form clear thoughts….
Chewing on raw sugar cane and drinking a can of pop will do the same thing to your body…come on…be smart, not smart-assed…..the body takes sugar as sugar, no matter the source…for me, I’d rather the more natural source then one that is bleached and altered in a lab (think Aspartame and such)…..but I don’t have a lot of sugar in my diet (and in regards to fruit…I don’t consume more than necessary..)
My body digests plant based protein better than meat based protein…plain and simple…..actually I think it’s the quality of meat that is out there that has created MY issues over time.
By plant protein I mean hemp seeds, pumpkin seeds, quinoa, sweet potato (yes, there’s protein there) and chickpeas….
It works for me, but I don’t need YOUR approval.
einstein says
jennym, you are so wrong, so wrong. the acid alkaline myth and a lot of sensless generalisations too. i wouldn’t know where to start to put you straight, so I’ll leave it at that. good luck to you.
FrankG says
So you call me a troll jennym.. tell me to “suck it”and then expect to continue rational discussion? LOL Including additional comments regarding my mental state? 😛 LOL
It seems that YOU are the one who is confused and in need of decent nutrition… I was NOT questioning whether raw sugar-cane or soda were better quality foods but using them as examples to counter your statement … “[Natural], unrefined whole foods require less energy to digest”
Clearly your statement is nonsense… just like most of the verbiage you have written so far.
Jonny O says
Jenny I’m afraid you won’t get far arguing with these people. They are absolutely enraged by the sheer thought that you could be a vegan and healthy. I have no idea why but they seem to be taking what you choose to do with your own life as an it as an attack on their own. It’s actually quite frightening, and the only thing I could imagine that it would be is their own underlying guilt for knowing that they continue to kill living things when they don’t have to. They perhaps haven’t come to terms with this repression and sort of continue the denial by pushing hard against anyone who seems to succeed without such brutality. Perhaps they will understand one day, but sometimes I wonder if there are people who simply lack any idea of empathy. We eat meat because we have the guns and we can, plain and simple. If we didn’t we would be foraging for berries, nuts/seeds, plants and the rare treat of an already dead animal, like our ancestors more likely did.
It’s kind of funny in a morbid way though how in 50 years time most of the world will probably be vegan anyway, not by choice, but because of the goon heads today that have no concern with how they get their food or what impact it has on their world.
Richard says
Ahhh Einstein, we would be so blessed if you only knew half of what you think you do. Some of your comments are ready for comic books!
You guarantee that grass-fed beef is nothing but healthy? You are the one that needs to read some research that has been done on cultures that are healthy and live to an old age then see what they eat on a daily basis….there are none that are big meat-eaters but there are some that are vegan or near-vegan like in Okinawa where for decades they sustained themselves on mostly sweet potatoes.
Vegetables take more energy to consume than they produce? Which comic book did you lift that quote from? Stop eating meat for three months and see if your body produces the enzymes you are fond of.
How do you justify the very recent research that shows if you stop eating meat for as little as 24 hours and consume whole plant-based foods the bacteria in your gut reverts to a much healthier group than meat-eaters have in their guts?
Ahhh research, who needs it when we have people like Chris and Einstein to tell us what to eat?
Kevin says
Having tried the strict vegan diet for over a year, I have some input for you. My girlfriend, my daughter and I all did it for different reasons. I did it because I saw evidence that it would greatly reduce the chances of recurrences and complications (i.e. cancer) from my chronic illness. My girlfriend was trying ANYTHING to cure her migraines (the vegan diet didn’t work, as expected, but she felt better for it). My daughter wanted to be healthier and stay skinny (she feels great and stunningly fits into her old jeans).
First, I’d like to point out nutritionfacts.org to anyone wanting more information on studies that support the health benefits of a plant-based diet. No doubt, this guy has an agenda, but it seems to be protecting your health as much or more than saving the animals of the world, and he backs his findings up with references to actual clinical studies, not a lot of psuedo-science of the kind I’ve seen from the likes of Mark Sisson or “I think”s like the author of this article provides. Don’t get me wrong, I thank the author of this article for his efforts to inform me, but I’ll go with clinical studies over “I think . . .” any day.
Secondly, it was an interesting journey, being a strict vegan for over a year. It was easier than I thought, with help from the two most influential people in my life and a work-at-home job. More interesting was the mental journey. When folks used to talk about inhumane treatment of animals in commercial food production, I didn’t let it into my head. That would have created too much cognitive dissonance, I guess. Living the vegan life made it okay for me to give credence to the “crazies” and the things they spouted. Not that I’ve made a complete transformation, but they don’t seem so crazy now – most of them anyway. What seems more crazy is the SAD and the many outright lies that give it credence in our society (e.g. the food pyramid decided with great influence from the food-producing industry that profits from, for instance, all of those eggs we eat).
Now, most of my meals are vegan. I think I feel a little stronger when I eat meat a couple of times a week and don’t worry so much about the things my diet might be missing, and it’s not like I’m breaking an oath to eat a plate of enchiladas occasionally. I’m fighting chronic inflammation, which, for me, has convincingly implicated as a supporting factor in almost every major diseaseAfter MUCH reading, I’m convinced animal products come with a substantial cost in reduced long-term well being, if not entirely, then at least at the level of consumption we’ve come to see as normal. Also, I’m doing much better on an almost entirely well-chosen plant-based diet.
I realize animal products were part of what enabled our species to succeed evolutionarily to our current place in the world and would not contest that meat is a very nutritious meal in many regards. At the age of 50, the evidence I’ve see suggests I just don’t need much of it at all anymore, and it’s doing me harm.
In case you were wondering, my affliction is Ulcerative Colitis and, although still on meds, I have not been having the frequent flare-ups I’m accustomed to since cutting most animal products from my diet. For the record, I take B12, Calcium and vitamin D supplements and try to get a little sunshine as often as possible, and I feel pretty damn good for a 50-year-old sickie.
einstein says
have you tried to avoid sugar in all forms (yes, including fruit) and see if that hepls you? i am just reading yudkins PURE, WHITE AND DEADLY and he mentiones a clinical study done by italian doctors where high sugar consumption increased the chance of getting ulcerative colitis two and a half times. there is no way meat can cause that illness. meat never reaches the colon in the first place. veggies and fruit do, due to their high fiber content. and there were many cases of Crohns, where elimination of sugars in all forms, grains and vegetable oils lead to nothing short of miraculous recoveries. i just read such a story abt. a month ago on sisson’s website among the sucess stories. hey, I am not arguing, just trying to bring your attention to stuff you might want to read. good luck.
Kirsten says
He said “I think” once, and his articles and books are based on years of science-based research. Same with Mark Sisson. You say that nutritionfacts.org has an agenda – if you’re really into science-based information, you ought to know that having an agenda is a big red flag for data cherry-picking and fact-bending.
Luna says
Regarding B, I think you are missing the point. To a vegan/vegetarian, there is no humane way to kill an animal, and no need to eat it’s flesh. While it is even worse that most of the time the animals are treated terribly, the act of murder itself is what makes people shun meat.
“To say that humans shouldn’t kill animals for food/materials goes against history and nature.”
Probably the worst argument for why we should eat meat that people ever use. Yes, we historically have killed and used animals, and yes, it has helped our society advance. However, this is true of many awful things: murder, rape, abuse, torture, and other treacherous acts are part of human history and nature, some of our advances are a direct result of such heinous acts. It doesn’t justify continuing them.
To me, taking a bite of an animal’s body just feels wrong, like I wouldn’t murder and cook up my mother and dig in, so why should I do it to any other creature? They are all capable of feeling pain and fear. They don’t want to die or suffer. I can get all the nutrients I need without killing them, so there is no point. Even if I do run the risk of a deficiency, I wouldn’t really care. I was anemic when I ate meat, now I’m not since I supplement.
I understand that in some cultures and situations one must eat meat just to live and function, and that it is natural to eat meat, but for most of us it is a matter of preference over need. If you choose to eat meat for whatever reason, that’s all fine and dandy; it’s your life, live it how you please. What I don’t get is why it is that omnivores feel a need to tell vegans/vegetarians that their reasons for not eating dead animals aren’t good enough. Wanting to cause as little harm as possible should be respected, even if it means we might not be eating the physically ideal diet. That’s kind of selfish.
Also, look into the ecological impact of eating meat. It’s hard to justify eating a steak when it is extremely harmful to the entire planet. You know the old “vegans are hurting the planet by eating too many plants!” argument, well you need to grow way more plants and use way more water to grow animals for food, it takes an awful lot of plant calories to grow a cow. This has an impact on impoverished workers as well as the environment. Waste runoff from farms can contaminate the water. The meat and dairy industry is the biggest source of greenhouse gas emissions (higher than all transport).
I do agree that it is possible to be healthy as an omnivore, it’s also possible to be healthy as a vegetarian or a vegan. The human body is highly adaptable. It doesn’t really make sense to avoid eating animals if your intention is 100% health-related. However, which diet is healthier isn’t really a concern to vegans who are avoiding meat to harm as few animals as they can. Just imagine for a second that human meat was very nutritious, and if you didn’t eat it you would have to supplement. Most people would choose to take supplements rather than murder and eat other people. That’s how vegans feel about animals.
FrankG says
Murder – noun
: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder
Luna says
5.
to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder?s=t
Because cherry-picking one word and defining it really makes a difference anyway. Whether I used the word in it’s literal sense or not wasn’t the point of the argument. Slaughter is wrong. That better for you?
FrankG says
Doesn’t help at all really.. you are still trying to force your own emotional overtones of this discussion onto me. This is NOT a reasonable discussion.
Luna says
Not actually. I said very many times, that it is my opinion. I respect yours, and expect the same back. I was simply educating someone on why people choose to be vegan. I don’t know why it upsets you so much. Whether I use the word murder correctly or not is a very empty argument. It shows that you are emotionally invested in the issue to the degree that you have to find the smallest flaw and attack it.
FrankG says
You are perfectly entitled to your own feeling about killing animals.. no-one is telling you that you must kill and/or eat animals.
What you do NOT have, is the right to force your views (or feelings) onto others who disagree with you.
We are ALL part of the same life, part of the same genome: animals AND plants… one massive recycling project… what goes around comes around… we ALL have to borrow life, in order to be alive.
I realise that trying to have this discussion with you is akin to trying to persuade a New Earth Creationist that the Earth is actually over 4 Billion years old and we have evolved from simpler lifeforms… bu these ARE the facts as I see them today — it is hard to reason with blind faith, emotions and ignorance.
Luna says
“no-one is telling you that you must kill and/or eat animals.”
Did you read the comment I responded to? It was actually someone trying to explain why vegetarianism was stupid and was asking for peoples reasoning on why they would still opt out of meat eating after what he said. So I gave my answer.
I do not force my beliefs on others. It is actually more often done by omnivores, as is seen in the above comment that I responded to. I have never tried to force my vegetarianism on another person, but the amount of meat eaters that try to convince me to eat meat is insane. Like why? Why do you care so much what I eat? If I said I didn’t want to eat bananas ever again because I didn’t like them no one would list reasons why choosing not to eat bananas doesn’t make sense, they wouldn’t care.
Whether or not you have encountered vegetarians who push their beliefs on you says nothing about vegetarians on a whole. Don’t assume things about what I do/do not know and what I would/would not believe.
I was responding to a direct attack on my beliefs, I even said I don’t care if you choose to eat meat, but from my perspective, I can’t bring myself to eat an animal. You know, responding properly to someone’s question rather than getting emotional and making assumptions like you are doing.
It’s interesting that you make the religious comparison when in my post I actually said that I understand why people would eat meat, but that in my opinion death without reason is unnecessary, thus I try to avoid it. I don’t know how much more reasonable I could be. Also, you can’t just say “these are the facts” when there are no facts. Fact: you don’t think an animal’s life is as important as the use you get from it. I understand that, and I know there are many times when the fact that we use animals saves peoples lives, and I am not against that. But another fact is that you can live healthily without eating animals, you can’t contest that. The millions of vegetarians and vegans prove that.
It isn’t blind faith, emotions, or ignorance guiding my decision to not eat meat. It is the fact that I see the pain. Science shows animals feel pain and emotion. Science shows vegetarians can be healthy. So instead of taking an emotional stance of “but that’s the way it is, we eat meat, we are meant to eat meat, so that’s what I’m gonna do”, I decided to look at the facts, the facts about the impact on animals and the environment rather than just what may or may not be optimal our bodies.
It seems as though you saw that I confessed to not eating meat and didn’t read anything else in my argument.
Luna says
As I said in my original post:
“If you choose to eat meat for whatever reason, that’s all fine and dandy; it’s your life, live it how you please.”
So I don’t know what your point is. Because I made it clear that those were all my reasons. To educate the person who asked why I would avoid meat when there is humanely slaughtered meat, and those are my reasons. My personal reasons. Which I made clear. So unless you have a real point, and not just that you are so upset over the idea that someone else has different beliefs that don’t hurt you but you don’t agree with, your post was utterly useless.
FrankG says
You are either genuinely naive, or being disingenuous if you really think that what you are saying and your choice of word is not harming others… “murder”, “slaughter” etc.. are highly emotive terms used to generate a reaction — so please don’t act so surprised when you get one. They are also political tools to help direct policy towards a veg*an agenda.. already prevalent as Chris points out in this article: where it is commonly (and blindly) accepted that fruits and vegetables are somehow “blessed food”.. I disagree strongly with this approach and see only great harm for many (and vast profits for a few) if we continue on down this road. Mass starvation food riots etc…
Read the rest of the comments, including my own and you may get a better understanding — or perhaps you would be better off staying on blogs more suited to your own life choices and sensibilities 🙂
Jonny O says
You realize that factory farming is one of the major reasons of world starvation right? I’ve been reading your comments here, watching you run around and very smug-like assume that it is everyone else around you who is naive, and let me say, it’s given me great entertainment! You have a seriously strange phobia of veganism to the point where you assume there seems to be some grand conspiracy to get everyone to become vegan, and you only finally revealed yourself with this last comment, which was essentially a politically motivated disdain for corporate profits, etc. etc. Wow. Did you hear the whoosh when it all went way over your head? Needless to say, I’m loving how irate it makes you that someone happens to be a vegan and succeeds on it. The childish tantrums you’ve thrown in this article’s comment section alone have really been a good jest.
einstein says
you did not read the article or what? right in the beginning chris says this is for those who eat vegan because they think it is healthier than omnivore. not for those who eat vegan for religious or moral reasons. everybody has a right to die for his ideals and as far as I am concerned, veganism is one way to do it. piece.
Luna says
I wasn’t responding to the article, I was responding to a comment made by another individual who asked why someone would go vegan for health reasons and why they would for ethical reasons when you can get meat that isn’t treated as badly. Scroll up and read what I was responding to. It makes sense that way.
Luna says
It’s the comment by Michael that starts:
“I am curious why someone would even become vegetarian or vegan?
I normally hear two reasons; a) to be healthier b) they are an animal lover/ killing animals is wrong etc”
I did read the article and thought it was fine. I agree that going vegan for health reasons makes no sense, as I said in my above reply.
einstein says
sorry, my bad. you’re right
einstein says
whoever is eating abnormal quantities of fruits sets course towards fatty liver disease due to the excessive fructose load. and you can’t live on veggies alone unless you are a gorilla munching tree leaves all day and have a 6m long bowel like he does (hint: you don’t). I can’t believe in today’s world of accessible information people still don’t take the pain to do proper research before they go full steam and damage their health by following wrong advice. Quite unbelievable, I tell you.
FrankG says
Interesting discussion here about: how despite putting only vegetation into it’s mouth, the lowland Gorilla’s digestive system is such that it actually ingests an HIGH-FAT diet — as much as 66% of energy…
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/should-all-animals-eat-a-high-fat-low-carb-diet.html#.Uw4m6YUz0qM
Oh and in case I need to point this out for Sharon… no, humans are NOT the same as gorillas 🙂
einstein says
very true. the only creature on earth eating a high carb diet is the human animal, unless he is a low carb dieter.
ravi says
Thanks for not being quite as indignant as other vegans who post on such a topic – but i want to point out that you may THINK you have all the nutrients – your blood tests show OK (BTW how LONG have you been vegan? – cause b12 takes about 5 years to run out of if you formerly ate animal products) – but blood tests measure ONLY A FRACTION of the nutrient/vitamin/mineral needs of the human body –
i do tire of the “everyone finds their own diet good for you” comment – it shows a total intentional or unintentional disregard for basic human physiology and biology (as Chris pointed out CLEARLY in the article) -sure you can keep a cat ALIVE on cereal-based cat food with little or no meat – but the cat will not thrive, and will fall victim to chronic ills at a younger age –
same with you – you may feel great now – and even be losing weight making you happy, but you are not vegan technically – because your body is robbing your bones, muscles and tendons – literally eating itself – in order to save your internal organs and to maintain that claimed good blood work –
keep it going – you will find out – hopefully not too late – that you are on a dead-end nutritional path.
Still Learning says
Thank u!! Most people are not getting this concept. Vegetarian, vegan or other diets. Well rounded meals and eating the right foods are key. To be honest I am vegetarian but my husband is making the switch to vegan. It is a change up. It requires different prep. But done RIGHT one can be very healthy. And yes I see sooooo many people saying they are vegetarian or vegan and they consume mostly carbs and soy. This would b unhealthy for any diet!! —
Jack says
Sorry but I don’t believe you are being a vegan if you have to take side supplements. It is better to eat the required food to rely on pills and over the counter supplements. Most Vegans and vegetarians have health problems and are on supplemental diets. but the general view is they are healthier!, This is a huge misconception.
Nick says
“Most Vegans and vegetarians have health problems and are on supplemental diets.”
Garbage. Which studies show this false opinion is true?
The truth is, as I already referenced here, that eating meats is either of negligible health difference (the large-scale European studies) or eating meats is MUCH more UNHEALTHY, much increased mortality (The American Adventism studies: 5 YEARS off your life! – and remember that is *across the board* E.g. some eating meats, perhaps reading this blog, will die because of it in the next couple of years, bowel cancer one of the major killers implicated, whereas others will get away with it being unaffected.)
Your claim of an alleged misconception is a misconception.
Tanika says
Yes, I absolutely agree with your comments .
Zoe says
Do you think perhaps “eating mostly carbs and soy products” was the problem and not that you were vegan? If you eat poorly you will feel poorly regardless of whether you are vegan or a meat-eater!
Christopher says
It is possible but eating those products was the norm among the vegan community I affiliated with; as well, I should’ve made clear that I ate plenty of veggies and fruit but struggled for satiation with them, thus carbs. And eating beans every day got boring, thus soy and seitan. When I was vegetarian and ate eggs and yogurt and drank milk, my health was definitely a-ok.
Mike says
I’m still waiting to hear why soy and grains are bad for you. There is no credible evidence to say that moderate amounts are.
The whole soy is bad because of phytoestrogens scare was thoroughly debunked and unless you have celiac disease, gluten is just another type of protein.
This is a sloppy opinion piece disguised as coming from a place of science.
Ed says
Mike,
Try reading GRAIN BRAIN. It cites a number of studies that suggest gluten is bad for lots of reasons – and not just for people with celiac / coeliac disease.
Rook says
Hey Mike, what’s your source on the soy-phytoestrogen debunking? Keen to learn more about this, but when I Googled it I got nothing.
Still Learning says
Rook check this article out.. http://jb.asm.org/content/195/9/1902.full.
einstein says
do your homework Mike. nobody is going to mouth feed the truth to you. google….
Jake says
“small amounts of grains and soy are not harmful”
I’m sure very small amounts of cocaine won’t do much harm either. Just because something won’t hurt you in small amounts doesn’t mean you should eat it.
Still Learning says
RIGHT!! I wish there was a like button 🙂
Tim says
As an omnivore, I think its important to occasionally go vegan for a day or two out of the month… The same reason I get the supersized Big Mac at McDonalds. I’m in great health, its all about a balanced bio-diverse diet and lots of exercise/meditation/yoga.
Whisper Horse says
I think anyone who is investigating any kind of diet should always take into account any nutritional precautions. If it is done the right way then no one should be getting sick. A whole foods plant based vegan diet following one of the health programs that already exist has zero reports of any deficiencies what so ever. So making a generalized statement about the vegan diet causing deficiency is somewhat biased. If you look into the omnivore diet, one of of every three American’s will die of a heart attack where heart health problem are very rare for someone following a healthy vegan diet. Heart disease still exists in vegetarians as well.
Daniel says
I think anyone investigating nutrition should realize that you have a genetic requirement for food. Meaning you can’t make up for a nutrient deficiency by reading a book. Either you give your body what it needs and you flourish or you don’t and you suffer. The more you meet your needs the higher your function the further away the lower you function. You can mask it for many years but eventually you will have detriments. No matter how you slice it.
Nancy says
Right on, Daniel. You nailed it. I love vegetarian and vegan diet and was one or the other most of my life but feel so much better on diets that include high quality animal protein in terms of overall health, energy, and performance. Paleo diet works even better for me because my body does not tolerate ANY grains, legumes, or dairy and the intolerances to these and processed foods got worse as I got older. I concluded that my body does not care what types of foods I prefer – it wants what it needs and if I do not give it, it cannot and does not serve me well. I have learned to listen to my body by closely monitoring how I feel after I consume a new food. I found this to be the right path for me and my guess is for many others.
Kaitlyn says
So you had a poor diet and then choose to blame the problem on “vegetarianism.” I just cannot believe the amount of times I have seen this raised in arguments on the internet, when in fact it is a non argument. Plan your diet well – vegetarian or omni. It is not excuse to scare people off a healthy, ethical and sustainable way of living if they wish to do so!
einstein says
you know what’s liberating about paleo? you don’t need to plan your diet! fm the comments I have a strong feeling that vegetarians and vegans spend a lot of time planning their diets and making sure they don’t run into deficiencies (those who do it “well”). those who don’t do it well, suffer. i don’t plan anything, not even my next meal. and if i have not time to eat, i simply skip the meal and am not even hungry! and I can’t go wrong because the only thing I do is I avoid food which does me harm and eat everything that supports my health. because at the end of the day, health is all that counts. a healthy person has many wishes, ideals and fantasies. an ill one, has only 1. to be healthy again. moral, ethics and ideals go down the drain as soon as you get sick because the survival instincts kick in. so if you are ready to die for your ideals, that is completely fine. many people do. not me though, not me…
FrankG says
On a Diabetes forum where I post, is a lady who like me, uses an LCHF diet to manage her condition.
She chooses not to eat meat for her own reasons, which I respect and she certainly never tries to force her views on anyone else.
She freely offers that: it is a great deal harder for her to manage an LCHF diet as a vegetarian (allowing eggs and dairy), than it is for me eating meat. She does not think that vegan would be possible for her.
I also see throughout the comments here, feedback to “failed” vegans who “didn’t do it properly”.. and have asked (without any response) why and when nourishing our bodies became such a complicated task? It seems you almost need a degree in nutrition.. which further underlines for me my concern regarding forcing such a lifestyle choice on innocent children; during their vital years of growing and development.
I see veg*ans pointing to figureheads like Einstein (even on a veg*an website I read that he probably only ate vegetarian for the last year of his life) or the current world strongest man, who did not get that way by eating vegetarian… he reportedly became vegetarian in 2005 and vegan in 2011 — just in time to become the spokesperson for PETA (I wonder how well that pays?)
Dr’s Neal Barnard and McDougall both grew up on their families’ livestock farms. Barnard in particular not “converting” to meatless until his 20’s. Now he fronts the PCRM… which for some reason tries to obfuscate their vegan agenda.. why try to hide a good thing?
Like you, I can enjoy a tasty varied diet, even missing meals, as I trust my body… confident that I am well-nourished and healthy. If I need further proof, I have years of lab tests and marked improvements to my teeth, gums, skin and hair — plus I rarely even get a cold these days.
Curious says
FrankG: what is your area of expertise? Are you helping Chris K on this blog too – as I see many, many posts by you here – just wondering is all especially since you mention above you post on a Diabetes forum?
Just curious as well, how it is that the PCRM bothers you so much because you posted this many times here as well. I think many docs today are clearly using whole food plant based (first used back in the 80s) instead of vegan for many reasons, i.e. vegans can eat very poor diets.
I don’t think that any one is arguing there are health/nutrition clinical conditions for eating or not eating certain foods thereby adjusting diet if necessary.
FrankG says
Why do you ask “Curious”?
If my comments don’t already speak for themselves, then I see no reason to justify myself to yet another anonymous pseudonym.
Curious says
I ask because I am curious!
FrankG is anonymous!
FrankG says
Then perhaps you should heed the cautionary tale (tail?) of the proverbial cat.
I’ve no intention of discussing who I am, or why I am here with you.
I think that my comments stand on their own.. if you feel that they do not and you have specific questions regarding them, or counter-arguments to them, then you so far as I am concerned you could probably feel free to say so.
But given that you seem unable to grasp why I take issue with the VPCRM hiding their true agenda, pretending to be one thing while saying another… and that several others have referenced the PCRM site as if it were a reliable source, then I have serious doubts that we can see eye to eye on many issues here.
Tallulah says
FrankG, I’d like to address one issue and ask one question. I believe that nourishing our bodies has become such a complicated task because the quality of our food has become so compromised over the last few decades. We have modified our food sources so much that we can’t possibly know what long-term effects we may be creating. History is full of examples of wonderful innovations that proved to be detrimental. Regardless of diet, we all would do better to educated ourselves on what we put into our bodies. My questions to you is about your stated marked improvement in teeth, gums, skin and hair. This suggests that at some point these things were worse than they are now and that the improvements are due to dietary changes. However, you never said what you changed – or I missed it. So, what exactly is the dietary reason for these improvements?
Carrie Wilcox says
I wouldn’t consider taking a vegan multi vite the same as earning a degree. Some people are just careless, and they really don’t WANT it to work. They want to keep eating the same crap they always have and have a good excuse to do it.
Lyndsey says
This is absolutely insane. Did you even read this before you posted it? When was the last time you left your house?
The ‘vegan agenda’ is to get people to stop killing animals when they can survive perfectly fine without doing it. The ‘vegan agenda’ is to live in a country that isn’t riddled with obesity and heart disease.
You honestly believe a strongman who’s entire career is based on his health would go vegan, knowing it was unhealthy, for a bit of money? That’s idiotic. Please do some research and stop manufacturing conspiracy theories based on your experience with one vegetarian on a forum.
AK says
But it can be argued that you are dying for your ideals as well. A statement like that does nothing to move the discussion forward.
Cat says
I have seen a lot of sickly looking vegans in my time trying to be a vegan. Everyone is different. Some do well on it, but I’ve seen a lot of sickly and sallow-faced vegans more than not in the end, including my half-brother. Always has dark circles under his eyes, though he is a health nut.
Ajith Bhojani says
So what? I have seen a hell of a lot of sickly looking meat eaters around. What’s your point?
Lyndsey says
You can call yourself vegan and still be be unhealthy. Your logic is flawed. Veganism does not automatically indicate health. The fact is, a person making good choices eating animal products will not be as healthy as a person making good choices on a plant-based diet. It doesn’t vary per person. This is science, not astrology.
Still Learning says
I agree! Stop blaming the label of ur diet. Omni eaters or vegetarian, bad eating habits are BAD eating habits regardless the label. And u will suffer health problems due to these habits.
Sky Child says
Why I don’t have to think twice about my vegan diet — There’s no ethical way to take a life.
Taken directly from the article,
“but there was no survival difference between vegetarians or omnivores. Nor was there any difference in rates of heart disease or stroke between the two groups. In other words, omnivores who are health conscious live just as long as vegetarians that are health conscious.”
Meaning that you can go through an entire life without supporting the meat industry, without existing by taking the lives of others to sustain your own, and live just as long as omnivores. The fact is that you no longer need to eat meat to live a healthy life, so why do you?
Finally, even if my health was negatively affected by my diet, EVEN IF, by some absurd study, the injury that has taken away everything I love in life for the last year was proven to be a direct result of my diet (and not, as I suspect, from my own mistake of overtraining three hours a day, six days a week for a very long time) then I still would make no change. I will gladly sacrifice a portion of my own health in order to prevent cruelty and slaughter of others.
As a side note, if you’re going to promote a paleo diet, and then go on to say that
“EPA and DHA. These long-chain omega fats are found exclusively in marine algae and fish and shellfish”
is essential to your health, then count out a large part of land dwelling people throughout history. I highly doubt the likelihood that something available only to those cultures that ate fish is absolutely necessary to our body. Beneficial, sure, but hey, Silk has got you covered with Soymilk with DHA and 30% more calcium than milk.
Richard says
Nancy, your comment does not make sense. A vegan diet is likely as healthy as it gets. Maybe you are allergy to some whole plant-based food but need medical help to figure that out.
There are plenty of studies and well-documented books that show dairy and meat are not good for you.
Rich says
There are just as many, and likely more, that prove that dairy and meat can be perfectly healthy parts of a good diet.
Any study that claims “meat”, especially, is bad for you fails to control for anything else, such as source of meat and other lifestyle factors. Is vegan healthier than eating industrially-produced food and fast food all the time? Yes. Is vegan healthier than my diet, which consists of locally-raised grass-fed beef and chicken, as well as produce from local farmers? Nope.
Lyndsey says
Yes, it is. Which is why there are hundreds of peer-reviewed studies that DO control for things like lifestyle, fat intake, activity level, and base health still show vegans have lower rates of heart disease, osteoporosis, and obesity. I get everything I need from a vegan diet without destroying our ecosystem and making myself sick.
As of 2015, the USDA is recommending a vegan diet. The UN recommends a vegan diet. The American Heart Association has just found that a vegan diet is better for children than the one they compiled that included animal products.
Veganism is the future. It must be. Go look at how much food and water is wasted on cows to produce a meal’s worth of meat. We’re starving humans to feed our cows.
Melanie says
This is a very ignorant article. And if your lack of education on the subject does not make a vegetarian bad for you. Non fermented soy products should not be consumed especially by men. There are B 12 supplements. I’m just so confused about the lack of knowledge. .. Our ancestors, including the “ice man” were actually proven to eat no or little meat. There are long term scientific studies proving a plant based diet is better for you and the environment. Watch the movie Forks Over Knives. … This is the dumbest article I’ve read in a very long time…
einstein says
sorry to have to say so but your comment is the one which is very dumb. your wishful thinking won’t change the facts of live. stay entrenched on your misguided ideals and pay the price years fm now with your health. you must be very young to be so naive…
Lyndsey says
It’s hilarious to me that you’re clinging to this speakers who are not recognized in the scientific community and choosing to ignore decades of in-depth research. The numbers are in. That is why nutritional councils all over the world are adopting plant-based diet recommendations. You’re so pouty about something that has nothing to do with you at all. Why are your feelings hurt?
einstein says
by the way, as far as forks over knives go read this review to get a second opinion: http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/09/22/forks-over-knives-is-the-science-legit-a-review-and-critique/
Foodie says
Reviews and critiques of other peoples work abound. I am glad Minger is involved in making her opinions informed and sharing those with others. I am also glad I can do my own research when a mass produced book, edited for sales and same for a movie are released. I wish Minger would do such and in depth public critique of Cordain’s work/ for book is full of errors and untruths, just to fair to the public.
Nutritional studies
Foodie says
posted before completed:
Nutritional studies and research, for the most part, are hard to do – can’t do blinded studies in most all cases because people have to see/report what they eat. However, epidemiological and retrospective studies do provide information. Then you need to factor in genetics, etc. – meaning we all know people who practically abuse their bodies and live long healthy lives…not all smokers get cancer or emphysema, etc.
einstein says
i seriously doubt you do your research the way Minger does. that girl is a genius and i know one when i see one :-). I must admit I did not read Cordain’s work (I have a big problem with the low-fat paradigm), but I heard about it. I am a big fan of the Jaminets, Sisson, Taubes, Kresser, Robb Wolf, Masterjohn, the Drs Eades, Peter Attia, of course Minger etc. Could it be possible that they are all wrong? You don’t need to be me, to answer that question 🙂
Foodie says
Quite an assumption on your part einstein! I have done extensive research in this area and was part of research IRB approved in another area of healthcare – behavior change. As far as I know, Minger, who is an intelligent person, has done her own published research – just saying since you brought it up.
Of course they could all be wrong, whether the research or just a someone interrupting research. “No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.”
The real: Albert Einstein
Foodie says
correction: As far as I know, Minger, who is an intelligent person, has NOT done her own published research –
FrankG says
Oh right.. so we should just ignore everything she has done? LOL 😛
I’m getting a little pissed off at those who think that an appeal to authority holds any meaning…
What formal qualifications did Galileo have or Newton for that matter… if they were around today would we similarly ignore them?
Tel you what: imagine Albert Einstein (who pretty much flunked “high” school and dropped out of University) walked into a room full of physicists and made a pronouncement about a new hypothesis of his. Do you imagine that for one second his past genius and qualifications would in any way make those other scientific minds accept what he had to say, without question or scrutiny?!?
There is no free ride in science. The data speaks for itself which is what Denise Minger points out… and T. Colin Campbell based his conclusions on his own vegan agenda… that is inexcusable in my view.
Being able to apply the scientific method is not limited to those with a degree in a scientific field.
FrankG says
Einstein was working as a patent clerk when he wrote world-changing papers. Leonard Susskind: one of the leading figures in string theory, quantum field theory, quantum statistical mechanics and quantum cosmology started his working life as a plumber!
Foodie says
No reply button below so adding follow up here: I was quoting Albert Einstein so, not sure why the backlash. The list is quite long – Bill Gates didn’t finish college – no one will argue that brilliance CAN come from outside established schooling. I was responding to einstein’s ” seriously doubt you do your research the way Minger does.” comment as the only reason I was pointing out that I have done research into the subject like Minger and have this as a life experience. This is confusing – you want science you don’t want science?
I am off to do my own research.
einstein says
2 things. so you did your own research into the subject like Minger. that’s a bold statement and there’s no way I believe it without a link to it. and your results came out similar to those of Campbell’s? As much as I don’t like Campbell’s biased conclusions, I don’t think you are in the same league with him, as a scientist, are you? Minger knocked that guy out of his socks and left him breathless and did not even need to do research. She “just” cracked the numbers of Campbell’s own research and interpreted them correctly. Isn’t that funny? Now if you are serious about your own research blabla, drop a link to it. I promise to read it with a critical eye but without bias. or go and try to fool somebody else with your fake credentials.
FrankG says
Great to hear from yet another supporter of Denise Minger’s approach to pointing out the flaws in works such as The China Study and Forks Over Knives… always good to hear 🙂
einstein says
and I would recommend to all the the vegas out there to read this article: http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/ for their own benefit. if any one of them is so entrenched in his views that he does not even want to listen to anything that does not correlate with his beliefs, that person is beyond help and there’s nothing anyone can do to help him. Sad, so sad…
Lyndsey says
This is the only study I have ever seen cited for anti-veganism. Maybe you should look at the literal hundreds of peer-reviewed studies that show veganism is the healthiest possible diet, both for humans and for the planet.
The USDA is recommending a vegan diet as it’s #1 choice, as is the UN. They don’t make those decisions based internet articles.
FrankG says
‘Our ancestors, including the “ice man” were actually proven to eat no or little meat. ‘
The “ice man” Ötzi, was Neolithic not Paleolithic. And the debate continues as to the diet on which he grew up and lived… who has the better evidence.. those who study the stable isotopes in the bone, teeth, or hair samples? It makes sense to me that the bone and teeth isotopes are more reflective of lifelong diet that the hair would be.
Regarding his last meals…
“According to the DNA reconstruction, the man’s last meal was composed of red deer (Cervus elaphus) meat, and, possibly, cereals; this meal had been preceded by another one based on ibex (Capra ibex), different species of dicots, and cereals.”
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/20/12594.full
AK says
I don’t understand how looking at the last meals of a man who died 5000 years ago in a world with such different food to what we have now, in an environment so different to where we live now, can tell us what we should eat now.
He was 45, died of a wound, was 1.65m, and 50kg in weight. What does that really tell us about how optimal his diet was?
John Richards says
Fact is, until recently people who lived in very cold climates subsisted mainly on seal blubber. Plants don’t grow so well in ice. You should study the Inuit Eskimos.
Erk Rohm says
Of course caution should be taken! There is to much bashing going on here. The science is definitely not “in” that being vegetarian is bad for you, most studies say otherwise. If there is new evidence coming out then we should weigh that, but the science is not in, and maybe it never will be. Most people are bashing vegetarians bc it fits their MO of wanting to eat their tasty fleshy treats, but all this article is saying to me is that you need to be smart about it and that goes for every kind of diet.
We know there are bad diets, but there is no perfect diet, and everyones body is different. I encourage vegetarianism from an ethical, environmental, and health standpoint, but I believe and know that some people need to eat meat and that in small amounts it can be very healthy and possibly more so than vegetarianism. This article shouldn’t be seen as an opportunity to bash what is a very compassionate, healthy, and beneficial way of living, but as a way for vegetarians to be smarter and not be arrogant about our lifestyles.
FrankG says
Then why so many arrogant and insulting comments by veg*ans???
Dan says
Because they are mentally unbalanced. I spent enough time around vegans….Very obsessive and very pleased with themselves and down and condescending on everyone else.
Lyndsey says
That’s absolutely insane haha ‘this entire group of people is mentally unbalanced because they choose a diet based on health, environmental effects, and moral standards.’
I’m sorry if your guilt makes us seem pleased with ourselves, but that’s actually not a bad thing. We’re just happy.
Richard says
It is clear that we are maybe 100 years away from better science that more clearly defines how much and what kind of animal products are actually good for us.
However, comments claiming there are studies supporting either vegans or heavy animal protein consumers are not considering only valid studies. There is no valid study showing that heavy animal protein consumers are on a good diet.
The only reason I like to see people eat fewer of eggs, cheese, meat, oils and toxins is because I contribute in taxes to their health care. Health insurance does not properly put a fair burden on those that do not take care of their health and government programs reward those that are sick.
Government, especially liberals, want the public to think that the poor are sick because they lack money when in truth what they lack is good nutrition because either they lack the knowledge or the will power.
Nobody is going to ever convince me that I can not eat healthfully daily for less money than buying processed junk and fast foods.
Emma says
Eating mostly carbs and soy products is likely why you were malnourished. Not vegan ism in and of itself.
hannah says
Christopher, no offense, but you are not malnourished if you eat mostly carbs and soy. That is definately not a healthy vegan diet. you should have eaten mostly veggies and fruits, also some GOOD carbs and not so much soy. with this kind of nutrition it is in fact not possible to get sick..if you tried living a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle for ethic reasons and stuff, maybe you can try again with a proper nutrition.
Richard says
WOW, that is interesting because my natural plant-based diet has had the opposite impact on my health. Besides feeling better than I have for decades my weight is well below the maximum for my height, my waist is much smaller, my blood pressure and uric acid levels are way down.
I do not miss that meat, milk or cheese, which in many cases is near poison…
Richard says
Yes, if you are a vegan on diet coke and French Fries eventually it will catch up to you.
Try eating whole plant-based food focusing on legumes, greens and other vegetables, nuts, avocado and seeds with occasional fish and eggs.
SteveL says
Dude, why would you eat mostly soy and carbs? There are all sorts of online resources available to show you how to do it the right way. Try Engine 2 diet. Or Forks over Knives…
I would die of malnutrition if I ate mainly soy and carbs because I hate soy and carbs are mostly processed foods… yuck.